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Live Wire with Luke Burbank
Carvell Wallace, Joy Sullivan, and Danielle Durack
00:52:37
This episode features writer Carvell Wallace, poet Joy Sullivan, and music from singer-songwriter Danielle Durack.
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- [00:03]
Luke Burbank
Hey there. Welcome to Livewire. I'm your host Luke Burbank. This week on the show, we are talking to the writer and podcaster Carvel Wallace about his memoir, Another Word for Love, where he talks about how he sort of accidentally became a professional writer pretty late in life and also how his fascination with TV shows like Three's Company and MASH really shaped his early years. Then bestselling poet Joy Sullivan stops by to talk about her book Instructions for Traveling west, which explores themes of home and what it means to be lucky and also what happens. Basically, shake up the Etch A Sketch that is your life. And also, a chimpanzee named Mendelssohn will make an appearance in this conversation. Then finally, singer songwriter Danielle Durak is going to perform a song off her latest album, Escape Artist, live from the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland. We are here as Livewire to help be an escape for you, dear listener, in this next hour of radio. So stick around and get started right after this.
- [01:01]
Elena Passarello
From prx.
- [01:03]
Luke Burbank
It's Live Wire.
- [01:11]
Elena Passarello
This week, writer Carvel Wallace.
- [01:14]
Carvel Wallace
Part of why we make art and tell stories is because there's a little parlor trick, there's a little human to human magic trick of taking reality and making it beautiful.
- [01:23]
Elena Passarello
Poet Joy Sullivan.
- [01:26]
Joy Sullivan
What if I burn everything down and I answer with my life, this instinct that says there's another life out there for you?
- [01:33]
Elena Passarello
With music from Danielle Dirac and our fabulous house band, I'm your announcer, Elena Passarello. And now the host of Livewire, Luke Burbank.
- [01:46]
Luke Burbank
Hey, thank you so much, Elaina Passarello. Thanks to everyone tuning in to Livewire from all across the country. We have a really interesting show for you this week. It's going to be fun, too. That is a thing that does happen still. And we're going to kick it off with one of the most fun segments that we do. It's called the Best News we Heard All Week. This is our little reminder now more than ever, Elena, that there is some good news in the world. You just got to look for it. What's the best news you heard all week?
- [02:19]
Elena Passarello
Well, you know what I always say, Mr. Burbank, when you're looking for good news, you need to look to the rodent kingdom.
- [02:28]
Luke Burbank
I don't know if I've ever heard you say that, but honestly, it makes as much sense as anything.
- [02:32]
Carvel Wallace
Why not?
- [02:34]
Elena Passarello
And I wish I would have known this sooner, but for like the past 27 years, there has been this nonprofit called Apopo, and they have basically worked to train rodents, usually These rats, called African giant poached rats to serve in humanitarian efforts. Rats are perfect for this kind of work because they. Yeah, they're trainable. They live a long time, they're highly portable, they have great senses of smell. And as we know, a lot of members of the rodent community can basically get into and around almost anything. So that's why they've used rats all around the planet to do things like detect landmines and other buried explosives. They've trained rats to smell for contagious diseases, like the disease called TB that I could never pronounce. Do you know how to say that?
- [03:26]
Luke Burbank
Listen, if that's your one Achilles heel, I think we can live with it.
- [03:30]
Elena Passarello
There's something about it that I just can't do, but a rat could probably teach me how to pronounce it at this point. And now this new study that was just published in Frontiers in Conservation science, they took 11 rats, and they trained them to sniff out basically poached animal matter, like tusks and horns that are being smuggled out of countries illegally. And so now there's another thing that these amazing Apopo rats can do. They can sniff out this contraband and hopefully help with, you know, the sort of protection of endangered species that are hunted as trophies. And when they're learning these processes, apparently they're very trainable. The rats are rewarded with trail mix that's made of chow pellets, avocado, and bananas. And now, here is the best news I know. The holiday season is coming up, and you may be looking for the person that has everything. You can sponsor one of these hero rats. If you go to Apopo's website and just imagine on Christmas morning or Hanukkah morning or whatever morning, you give somebody a little stuffed rat with a vest on it and be like, this is an avatar for this thing that you're sponsoring that's gonna do so much good.
- [04:40]
Luke Burbank
I love the idea, too, of a poacher being thwarted, and they just go, rats. And it's literally a rat that busted them.
- [04:49]
Elena Passarello
Good idea. That's the most Scooby Doo, right?
- [04:53]
Luke Burbank
I don't know. Maybe I'm just dissociating these days. I'm just living in various old cartoons right now in my head. The folks that are living in Swedeborg, Missouri, are the location of the best news that I saw this week. There's a K through 8 school in Swedeborg, Missouri. It's a very small school. It's got like, 40 students or something. This is a Pretty rural area. And their school building has been named The Swedeborg District 3 elementary School building for some time. And they had a longtime staffer, a very, very beloved custodian named Claudine Wilson, who retired in July. And when Claudine retired, everyone in the town and associated with the school had these great stories about all the different ways that Claudine had helped them out over the years. She was just so beloved that they renamed the school for her the Claudine Wilson Learning Center. Because Claudine was not just the custodian. Claudine also would do the plumbing at the school, apparently, when needed. Was a handy woman, was a shoulder to cry on. A lot of the kids when they were having a hard day. They might not be inclined to talk to the teachers or even their parents, but apparently they would talk to Claudine.
- [06:06]
Elena Passarello
So she was a guidance counselor.
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Luke Burbank
Throw. Put that on the business cards, Claudine. And even there was a family that was very close to experiencing homelessness. This was just a couple of years ago. And Claudine owned a house that she wasn't living in. And she said, if you want to stay here, you can. So she was also housing services.
- [06:27]
Danielle Durak
Wow.
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Luke Burbank
Right. And she just made such an impact on this community and has made such an impact. They say that. I mean, one of the people quoted in this article says when you tell someone you're from Swedeborg, if they know one thing about Swedeborg, Missouri, they'll say, is Claudine still there?
- [06:45]
Elena Passarello
So she's ambassador as well.
- [06:47]
Luke Burbank
She's the George Bailey of this town or something. And so anyway, they named the school after her, which is just an incredible thing. She said she was, of course, really honored. Here's I think, classic Claudine.
- [06:58]
Announcer
Okay.
- [06:59]
Luke Burbank
She retired in July, and by this school year, she found out that they were needing a bus driver. So she's back driving the bus to.
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Elena Passarello
An elementary school that's named after her.
- [07:09]
Luke Burbank
Yes, she's now apparently the bus driver. Her retirement lasted like four months, and she is driving the kids to the Claudine Wilson Learning Center.
- [07:20]
Elena Passarello
Well, now they're going to have to name that bus after her, too.
- [07:22]
Luke Burbank
She. She's having quite the impact there in Swedeborg, Missouri. So I don't know if we're on the radio there, but hopefully soon Livewire.
- [07:29]
Elena Passarello
Will just get Ms. Claudine on. It sounds like she's the person for the job.
- [07:33]
Luke Burbank
Exactly. Somebody in the Livewire production staff, please reach out to Claudine Wilson and see if you can get us on the Radio there in Missouri. Anyway, that's the best news that I heard this week. All right. Our first guest is a writer and podcaster who's written profiles for gq, Esquire, the New Yorker. The book that he wrote with the NBA player Andre Iguudala was called the Sixth man. And it ended up on Barack Obama's famous list of like year end books. And now he has turned the focus on himself. He's got a memoir out. It's called Another Word for Love. Kirkus calls it an exquisite, soulful must read. Harvel Wallace joined us at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon to talk about it. Take a listen.
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Announcer
Carvel, welcome to the program.
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Carvel Wallace
Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.
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Announcer
I really, really enjoyed this book. It's a serious book. You know, it talks about a lot of really important stuff, but it's also just a really, really well written book and a great read.
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Carvel Wallace
Thank you so much.
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Announcer
I felt like I was really riding along with you in your life. The book is kind of at three sections. It's kind of your childhood and then your, I guess, kind of young adulthood and having a family and then kind of making sense of your life in, you know, this next act. Let's start with the beginning part. You moved around a lot with your mother and you're describing a lot of stuff that could be really hard, you know, for a young person in terms of your life circumstances. And then you. But you write like, this was a really good time for me, like, this is a really beautiful time, even though maybe it wouldn't seem like it on paper.
- [09:22]
Carvel Wallace
Yeah, yeah, that's right. I mean, I think that so many different things are available to us in any given moment. And it's not necessarily that one thing is more important than the other. It's just that part of my healing has come from being able to, like, go, okay, well, these were difficult things for sure. But the difficulty wasn't the only thing. Like, I think somewhere in the book I say, you know, it is not enough to hurt and know that you hurt, that love actually requires of us to heal. And so I think part of what the book is about healing, but the book also is like, is the healing. And part of that healing is the recognition that just naming your pain is important. But it can't stop there. At some point I have to say, yes, this hurt. I was harmed in this way. These external forces were difficult. These things, they were bad. It's real. And also they weren't the only thing happening that there was other stuff Happening, and I get to hold all of it. One doesn't cancel out the other. I get to hold all of them.
- [10:28]
Announcer
The thing you were saying about the healing, this is a book where you watch someone who's healing throughout the book. We talk to a lot of authors who write about pain and about healing. And what I hear a lot from them is writing does not heal you. It's not the cathartic thing that people might think it is. I think you write it down, and then it's like you've been cured or healed or whatever.
- [10:51]
Luke Burbank
Was it actually sort of cathartic for.
- [10:52]
Announcer
You to write all this stuff now?
- [10:54]
Carvel Wallace
I don't know that the healing comes through catharsis. I think that might be the misunderstanding. I think that the. To whatever extent there was healing as a result, it had to do with maybe a feeling that there was nothing left to hide. There's nothing left to be afraid of in the self. Part of what harms people, like all forms of systemic harm, whether they happen along lines of race or gender or class or what have you, the thing they all have in common is they make a person feel like their full humanity actually isn't that good. And, like, isn't that important. And once you have internalized that belief, people don't even have to do anything to you. You're now just operating at 20% capacity all the time. And so you can't advocate for things that are important. You can't build things that are meaningful. You can't remake the world in your vision because your sense of self has been deteriorated. And so the opposite of that is the regathering of the self. So I think the way that the book has worked to do what we might call healing is that it has allowed me to regather pieces of the self and put them all in order and say, okay, this is all there. And now that I see it all together, it's actually, okay, this is fine. Now I can go and be a person again.
- [12:14]
Elena Passarello
Yeah, I get the sense that there's another component too, because it's not just like, this happened, this happened, this happened. The book has its own voice and it has its own music. And your. Your particular sound and. And lexicon and syntax is so specific, and it's not the same, but it's consistent from part one to part two to part three. And that has to add something onto it too. It's not just displaying the events. It's finding this artful music and language for the events.
- [12:41]
Carvel Wallace
Yeah, well, okay, so there's two things there I think one is that, you know, part of what. Part of why we make art and tell stories is because there's something. There's a little parlor trick, there's a little human to human magic trick of taking reality and making it beautiful. But also on a deeper level, probably storytelling gives us a frame through which to view our reality. And when I was a kid, I grew up, I was really obsessed with tv. I watched TV all the time. I was, like, really obsessive compulsive. And so I would watch TV for seven hours, then I would go look at the world, and I would try to fit the world into the framework that I had seen on, like, MASH or Three's Company or what have you. And.
- [13:21]
Elena Passarello
Two very different frameworks, really.
- [13:23]
Carvel Wallace
And yet they work together. For me, they did throw some Benson in there.
- [13:28]
Announcer
I don't think you could have. You're right. I don't think you could have two theme songs that were more wildly divergent than Suicide is Painless by mash, and Come and Dance on Our Floor. Come Dance on our Floor for the Three's Company crew.
- [13:40]
Carvel Wallace
But if you look at the book, you'll see that those two influences are heavily evident. Yes, right. The maudlin, kind of like gallows humor of MASH was super impactful to me, as was this kind of freewheeling 70s vibe of Three's company. Anyway, the point is that part of what you're doing. Don't get me started on Three's Company, but part. But part of what you're doing as a storyteller is. And this is the privilege of it, is that you're offering a frame for people to view reality through. And so I think that's a really important thing to do because if you're kind of with that, then you make the world a worser place. And so the engagement with beauty is a way of giving people a beautiful framework through which to view their reality. So it might be that some person reads about the flower or the this or the that or whatever is in the book, and then when they leave and they go out, they just. That frame is just there for them, and it impacts the way that they might engage with their reality.
- [14:41]
Luke Burbank
This is Livewire from prx. We are talking to the writer and podcaster Carvel Wallace about his new memoir, Another Word for Love. We got to take a very short break, but when we come back, Carvel is going to talk about the sadness that you kind of feel as a kid watching tv, which seems like very niche, Elena. But I actually think the listeners A lot of them are going to relate to this thing.
- [15:04]
Carvel Wallace
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [15:06]
Luke Burbank
So we're going to talk about that right after this. Stay with us.
- [15:09]
Carvel Wallace
This is livewire.
- [15:17]
Announcer
Special thanks to our sponsor, Up Up Books, a Portland bookshop specializing in diverse authors, local writers and independent presses.
- [15:26]
Luke Burbank
They're located across from Revolution hall in.
- [15:28]
Announcer
The Buckman neighborhood and they offer a space for book clubs, workshops and events. Check out their website and grab a book@upupbooks.com.
- [15:46]
Luke Burbank
Welcome back to Livewire from PRX. I'm your host Luke Burbank, here with Elena Passarello. We are listening to a conversation we recorded with the writer Carvel Wallace about his memoir, Another Word for Love. Let's get back into that conversation now. We recorded this live at the Alberta Rose Theater in beautiful Portland, Oregon.
- [16:08]
Announcer
Not to get totally bogged down in the television conversation, but you describe something in this book that is a kind of an ennui that like I had always had as a kid and nobody ever really named, which is you start watching TV when it's light out.
- [16:23]
Carvel Wallace
Oh, yes.
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Announcer
And it gets dark, but you haven't turned on any lights. And now it's like hours later and it's the credits of something. And you just think, as a kid, how can I even exist in this kind of sadness?
- [16:34]
Carvel Wallace
Unbelievable. It was unbelievable. And I actually opened the book with this image because I think, I mean, you know, you're writing about yourself, but you're also thinking of it as a story. In the story editor point of view, when you go, oh, well, here's an image that sets the framework for where the character begins. They end in light and togetherness and in community, but they begin alone. And that particular sadness that would start when I'd watch a movie and my mother would, she was always taking naps or falling asleep or just like, not that we be it would start in the day and then the credits would roll and then it would be dark and you were just like, this is death. I have encountered the dark underworld and I will never, you know, but that's.
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Announcer
Bruce Banner is walking along the side of the road to another town.
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Carvel Wallace
And also the other thing about the is that it's actually funny to me. I think some of the stuff that people don't know, it's funny, but it's, to me, it's funny that a six year old is like contemplating death because like, you know, the afternoon movie on CBS went off. You know what I mean?
- [17:33]
Luke Burbank
Yeah.
- [17:34]
Carvel Wallace
What is wrong with this kid? Just be normal. Go play outside. Like, what are you doing You.
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Announcer
One of the things that you do in this book, I think really expertly is right about your queerness. And you write about it in this.
- [17:51]
Luke Burbank
Way that I don't want to say.
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Announcer
Is casual, but it doesn't seem like you get particularly hung up on it one way or the other. You're describing the life that you have and the people that you have been with. Did that take you a while to get to that point? Did you always feel that way? What was your journey with your queerness?
- [18:06]
Carvel Wallace
I, you know, I think I write in the book or may. I may have said in some interview, you know, I knew enough to know that, like, certain places, spaces I was in growing up, queerness could, like, result in, like, physical harm. So I was like, you know, I was mildly aware of that, but I never struggled with it personally. Like, oh, my God, am I queer? Like, what's going on? It always just made perfect sense to me that you could, like, whoever. Like, it just never that never. And anytime someone would try to convince me that that didn't make sense, I'd be, you know, I'd be worried because I was like, well, they seem pretty mad about that. I don't. Like, I could. I might get hurt, but it never actually made me question whether or not that was right. It always just made the most sense. Yes. And you could, like, whoever. Why wouldn't you be able to like, whoever? Like, what are we doing? So when I wrote about it in the book, it was important for me because I don't like to pimp trauma, and I don't like. And I think that there is a way that we really like to read pain and suffering from certain people so that we can feel bad, but then also feel relieved that we felt bad. And then that's. That ends the exchange. And the problem with that is that it doesn't really disrupt any power dynamics because the reader is just like, well, I'm glad my life isn't as bad as this person's life. And then. And so, because I don't like to do that around anything, around any marginalized identity. I didn't want to do that with queerness either. I didn't want to, like, tell a story of woe and suffering and abuse, the queerness. But I also did want to be honest about what happened, but that's not what this book was. So this book, I thought maybe the most radical thing I could do is take queerness as a given. It doesn't need to be explained. It doesn't need to be introduced. We don't need to, like, open up the curtain and say, now introducing our special guest queerness. And everyone has to stop and applauds. It's just, that is a normal thing in this world. And so now we can move forward with our story.
- [19:52]
Announcer
Yeah, we're talking to Carvel Wallace. The book is another word for love. I was really interested to see that you got into writing this kind of stuff pretty late in the game. I mean, you were a performer, an actor, and doing a lot of other stuff. But I don't want to say accidentally, but, I mean, you came into this kind of writing almost accidentally.
- [20:15]
Carvel Wallace
Yeah, it was accidental, I would say, for sure. I mean, I went to school for theater and I worked as an actor. Then I left acting to play music for a while, and that was what it was. And then my kids were born, and I couldn't tour, and I couldn't go and do, like, Oregon Shakes or whatever. And so I was at home, and I just started writing because it was the one, like, creative discipline I could do without having to leave the kids. But I didn't really know how to do it, and I didn't have a lot of practice with it. And then somewhere around 2014, I wrote a little tiny thing on Facebook, and a friend of mine asked if she was like, this is really good, but my friend has a blog. Can she put it on their blog? And so I was like, sure. So then she put it on the blog, and then about a month later, she asked me to write another thing. So I wrote another thing for that same blog. And then. And then I just forgot about it. I had this tech job. You know, it's like two little kids, I'm working in tech, just whatever. And then one day I opened up my Twitter and there were like, a billion notifications, and I couldn't figure out what happened. You know, this was even before people were getting canceled. So I didn't even. I wasn't even afraid that I got. I just didn't know what was happening. And it turned out that this blog was.
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Announcer
If you see me trending, it's not good news.
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Carvel Wallace
For the record, this is before. I didn't even know to be afraid that I was trending. But it turned out that that blog was. It was a small blog, but the followers were, like, almost all famous people for some unknown reason. And I guess Cindy Crawford had retweeted something I wrote. Wow. I believe that that's who it was. I'm still not 100% sure, but it was some 90s Superman model I think it was Cindy Crawford. And it was gone from there. And then so Jessica Hopper at Pitchfork was like, you know, try writing some music stuff. And I was like, yeah, I do. And it was literally from there. I wrote a few pieces for Pitchfork and they did well. And then more editors reached out, and I was like, oh, wait, I think this is it. I think it's happening. So I just. I ran with it.
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Announcer
Another big part of this book is your recovery. Literally your recovery, your sobriety. And I. You write about this kind of moment of clarity, which comes at a totally not when I would expect this to happen for someone. Like, you've had a pretty fun Fourth of July barbecue. It's gone pretty well. You've got a wife and a family and friends, and life is working for you. And you realize that you've had this whole bottle of vodka or whatever it was, bottle of something. And so many people, myself included, wake up the next day from there and go, I'm never doing that again. And then we totally do that again. Why did this stick for you? Why did this moment of clarity actually cause you to change your life the way you do?
- [22:50]
Carvel Wallace
I truly don't know. I've thought about this so much. I don't know why that one stuck. There were so many things that happened before that that would have been a moment that any rational, reasonable person would have been like, I should probably stop drinking. You know, And I did, but only for seven hours.
- [23:07]
Announcer
You know, wow, must be nice.
- [23:11]
Carvel Wallace
And so. And so, you know, for me, what kept it going was there was an illusion that there was some different. I might have messed up last time, but there is a way out there that I can do this that won't lead to negative consequences. Like, what happened on that particular day was that I suddenly no longer had that. I was like, oh, I get it. There's no way for me to do this. It's not a possibility. And I think before then, I had thought it was a possibility. Now, I had never seen that possibility. But writers are nothing if not magical thinkers. It's what we do for a living. And so my magical thinking was like, I'm sure I can find a way to drink like a normal person and not have consequences. I haven't done it in 20 years, but I will figure it out starting tonight. And then I think that night, it was just like, oh, I get it now. It's never going to stop. And people in my family had died, but they had died a long time ago, but their deaths suddenly made sense to me. That Night. Oh, I get it. She didn't plan on dying. She just. She went too far. It was like she couldn't stop. And if I don't stop, I'm gonna go too far, and I don't want that.
- [24:17]
Announcer
I'm guessing your kids have read the book.
- [24:19]
Carvel Wallace
My son has. My daughter hasn't. Yeah.
- [24:22]
Announcer
How do you feel about that? It's a very honest book about your life.
- [24:25]
Carvel Wallace
He skipped the sex part, which was great because that chapter is called the Sex. And so he was like, I'm just gonna. Yeah, skip that. Yeah. So I knew. I thought they would both read it, but I figured it'd be, like, after I died, somehow. I was like, you know, they're like, okay, who was that guy? Like, for real, who was that guy? You know? Cause when you're a kid, you don't really think about your parents. You're just like. You just think of them as, like, a source of stuff, money and whatever. And then when they die, you go, wait a second. Was that a person? Who was that person? What was going on with that person now? You know? So I figured that's when they would get to the book. And so I wasn't, like, tripping. I wasn't, like, trying to get them to read it, but my son just was like, dad, I'm totally gonna get your book. I ordered it. Like, I pre ordered it. Like, I'm really. I was like, well, you sure you want to read this, son? Because it gets pretty hairy. He was like, no, I want to get into it. And he did. He really read it and he really loved it, and he wanted to talk about it a lot, and. Yeah, it was great. Yeah.
- [25:26]
Announcer
I mean, it must be amazing for him to have this insight into his father, you know? Cause I feel like having read the book, I have some new insight into your life, at least the stuff you put in here, for him to be your own actual son and to learn this about his dad.
- [25:39]
Carvel Wallace
Yeah, I think there's that. I also think that, you know, at 21, I think there's some stuff about the book that he doesn't get. I mean, the book is, like, written, you know, from the point of view of someone who's a lot older. Like, I remember one day I was having a conversation with him, and he was like, it's like you say in your book, dad, terrible things happen and life is bad. And I was like, I don't think. Not sure that that's.
- [26:02]
Luke Burbank
Did you read.
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Carvel Wallace
Did you keep reading?
- [26:04]
Elena Passarello
You need him to write, like, an analysis of the book. You have a paper due to get a grade on it.
- [26:09]
Carvel Wallace
Yeah. You know, it's like, it's like you say, like, people do terrible things to you. And that's the point. I was like, I don't think that's the point. But he's, you know, so I think he's processing it the way young people process things. Because when you're young, you're very focused on the wrongs done to you. That's your primary focus. It's the right and healthy way to be. As you get older, you. You start to put aside for a moment the wrong's done by other people, and you start looking at your own stuff. And, you know, so the book tries to do that. I think he just. Some of that stuff went over his head kind of.
- [26:36]
Announcer
It's a great book. It covers so much and in so many different kinds of emotions and does it all so sort of expertly. It's another word for love. Carval Wallace, thanks so much for coming on Livewire.
- [26:50]
Luke Burbank
That was writer and podcaster Carvel Wallace right here on Livewire. His memoir, Another Word for Love, is available right now. Hey, special thanks this episode to Marcia Truman and David Martin, both of Portland, Oregon. Marsha and David are part of the Livewire member community. And I think I speak for all of us when I say community is really important right now. Right. Feeling supported, being able to connect with people. And Livewire is supported by folks like Marcia and David. They're donating to the show. They're making Livewire possible. And we are so appreciative for both of them doing that. So a big thanks to David and Marcia this week. I'm Luke Burbank. That's Elena Passarello over there, of course. Each week, we like to ask the Livewire listeners a question inspired by Joy Sullivan's book, which you're gonna hear more about coming up. We decided to ask the listeners what Alaina.
- [27:57]
Elena Passarello
We asked them what is your most memorable road trip?
- [28:01]
Luke Burbank
And we're doing something fun occasionally this year, which is we actually like to ask real audience members from the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon, to answer the listener questions. So we sent our producer Melanie Savchenko out to do that. And these are the responses. This is from Jan.
- [28:20]
Audience Member
So one year, Portland Public schools let schools out at 1 May because they ran out of money. And so my parents decided to take us on a road trip. And we went across the country from Portland through God only knows where. Wherever they knew people, we would stop and say hi. And the one Thing that was the worst in the entire universe is my younger sister had a pair of shoes that had a hole in the toe, and she never wore socks. And if she really wanted to torture me, she'd take her shoes off, and it was the most disgusting aroma ever.
- [29:01]
Luke Burbank
That is just, like, really on brand sibling behavior. I feel like you really subject your sibs. I have, you know, I've got six brothers and sisters. You subject them to things as a kid that you would never do in adult life to anyone.
- [29:14]
Elena Passarello
No. Yeah. It's totally torturous. I grew up in the house by myself, so when I went on road trips with my family, I had just, like, this spacious back seat. It was a delight. I could stretch out. I had no idea that, like, all of the people with siblings were basically getting tortured on the highways of America.
- [29:32]
Luke Burbank
All right, here's another story of a memorable road trip. This is from Sarah and her friend Candice.
- [29:37]
Danielle Durak
We were actually both just talking about this. We've known each other since seventh grade and senior skip day. We drove to Kenida, and on our way back, we ran out of gas. And there's one service station pretty much between Kenneda and, like, Gresham. We didn't have any money, so we decided to try to sell whatever we had out of the back of our car. And this sweet man gave us $10 worth of gas, and we went back up and repaid him a couple weeks later.
- [30:07]
Elena Passarello
Aw. Well, that's good.
- [30:09]
Luke Burbank
Those were the days, like, where you could run out of gas so thoroughly and there was probably no cell phone around to call for help, that it was like, well, how much can we get for these road flares, this spare tire? What else? Whatever you could find in the car.
- [30:25]
Joy Sullivan
Oh.
- [30:26]
Luke Burbank
Me and my buddies took a road trip when we were in high school down to California. And on our way back, we really wanted to go to San Francisco to Ghirardelli Square, where you could get the clam chowder in a bread bowl. We were obsessed with that. Yeah. And while we were getting the clam chowder from the bread bowl, some kids threw a rock through the back window of my buddy's Honda Civic and stole pretty much all of our stuff. Oh, no, there was no back window. It was a hatchback. So we drove all the way back, with me lying down in the back of the car, bracing a foam mattress against the hole in the back window. I should have answered all of these questions because I've got millions of weird road trip experiences. Let's hear one from listener John, who was at the Alberta Rose Theater, driving from Spokane to Seattle for the premiere.
- [31:13]
Announcer
Of Empire Strikes Back through the ash from Mount St. Helens.
- [31:18]
Luke Burbank
When i90 was closed, we snuck on it because we had tickets for the world premiere, so we had to get there.
- [31:25]
Announcer
It had a Volkswagen Bug that had.
- [31:28]
Luke Burbank
An oil bath air filter, so it.
- [31:31]
Announcer
Saved it because the dust didn't make it through.
- [31:35]
Elena Passarello
Oh, my God. I was already imagining like a 70s beetle bug before he even mentioned that it was a bug.
- [31:43]
Luke Burbank
I mean, that is the kind of tenacity that John brings to the audience experience. I don't even know what he had to do to get to Livewire, but he did it. Thank you to everyone who answered our listener question this week. This is LIVEWIRE from prx. Our next guest is a poet, a teacher, and the author of the national bestseller Instructions for Traveling west, which Booklist describes as moving, forthright and fresh poems about loneliness and desire, beauty and pain. Her work has appeared in such places as Goop and Oprah Daily. Joy Sullivan joined us at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon, to talk about her real life journey traveling West. Take a listen.
- [32:31]
Announcer
Hi, Joy. Welcome to the show.
- [32:32]
Joy Sullivan
Thank you so much for having me.
- [32:34]
Announcer
I've been aware of you because you're here in Portland and I your work, and I'm really excited to get to talk to you. But I want to get a little bit of your kind of history, which is sort of laid out in the book. You grew up going back and forth between Ohio and Africa as a young kid. Where were you in Africa?
- [32:49]
Joy Sullivan
Yeah. Well, we bounced around a little bit. So my family worked in the medical field. And so we were first in Quebec and then Haiti and then Central African Republic. So we moved around quite a bit. But most formative years were in Central.
- [33:04]
Announcer
Africa and your parents were medical missionaries. There was a pretty strong religious life for you, right? What was that scene?
- [33:11]
Joy Sullivan
Yeah. Exciting. Wow.
- [33:14]
Announcer
Okay. I feel like that pause really said a lot.
- [33:16]
Joy Sullivan
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'd say the first up until really high school and college, the formative years of my life were in some ways oppressively religious. And so I sort of began deconstructing that in high school and college. Like, I had a high school teacher. She actually gave me my first cigarette and that kind of thing. So I like became true story.
- [33:37]
Announcer
They would arrest you for that now.
- [33:38]
Joy Sullivan
I believe, and rightfully so. I had some experiences after we left the mission field that sort of, I think, helped me find a different path. But I'm really grateful in many ways for that time because even though I Had to deconstruct a pretty formal religious upbringing. It gave me this really expansive sense of the world. It gave me this language of poetry. I think that's my first experience of coming to language was writing in church. These really long sermons we would go to as a kid, I was just allowed a notebook and a pen and so I would write. And I think that was really formative. So there's a lot that I've deconstructed and a lot I'm really grateful for in that upbringing.
- [34:20]
Announcer
Something that you write about in one of the poems in the book, by the way we're talking to Joy Sullivan about her book of poems, instructions for traveling west, is that when you were grow in Africa, your neighbors had a chimpanzee named Mendelssohn and you like loved this chimp, but were low key, terrified of it because it was getting stronger and stronger.
- [34:40]
Joy Sullivan
Yeah, it's such a tragic thing. And I think, you know, a lot of times you just accept things as a kid that you're like, yeah, my neighbors have a chimpanzee and he was a primate, and so he needed physicality and touch. And he was kept chained by my neighbors. And I would sort of sneak and see him and if you got close enough, he would hug you and then he wouldn't let you go. And so it became this sort of tragic metaphor for me as a kid to see what it was to be really caged or trapped. And I think I internalized that of really wanting to always have freedom and wanting wild things to also have freedom.
- [35:19]
Announcer
Yeah. How do you poems are so specific in terms of a particular way something smelled, or how somebody look in someone's eye, or the way the sky was on that moment. Are you keeping copious notes at all times? How are you recalling the detail of those moments in your poetry?
- [35:37]
Joy Sullivan
Yeah, so one thing kind of a mantra that I say to myself is to write from the belly, not the brain. So I try and be really sense forward in my work. I'm a little bit synesthetic, which means that I experience sometimes an overlap of sense senses. So in my sentences, sometimes they have a little bit of a texture or a flavor in my brain. So genuinely, like literally on the page, I'm experiencing something sensorially before I'm even sort of making sense of it rationally.
- [36:06]
Announcer
Well, can we hear one of the poems? Sure, let's hear Leap.
- [36:10]
Joy Sullivan
Yeah, this is Leap. I made a really big leap about three years ago in my life and I. I wrote a poem about it. Nothing my friends tells me shocks me anymore. No wild dream or unadvisable plan or moonshot idea. Recently, my friend told me she wants to move to Wyoming to be closer to horses. She tells me horses can hear your heartbeat from four feet away. That's enough for me. Another friend is relocating to Peru, another to Alaska in search of his true north. Another is adopting a child. Another is turning down a killer job so she can finish the book she's been trying to write for years. Another is leaving the man of her dreams for a woman. Look, America is awful and the earth is too hot. And the truth of the matter is, we're all up against the clock. It makes everything simple and urgent. There's only time to turn toward what you truly love. There's only time to leap.
- [37:12]
Announcer
Joy Sullivan here on livewire. I was really struck by that poem because I feel like depending on maybe how much privilege one has, a lot of us get to sort of figure out what we want our life to look like. And then we get to go try and do that. But then you also get to the end of your little rainbow and you go like, okay, this is what that was all about. Do you feel that? Do you kind of try to address that in your work? You have this life that you wanted to create. You're a poet, you live in this beautiful city, and now you have to deal with the reality that this is your life.
- [37:47]
Joy Sullivan
Yeah, it's weird. I wrote a piece recently about the surprising tragedy of getting what you want, because it doesn't. You can become a best selling author and it doesn't fix your depression. You still have to get up in the morning and face yourself.
- [38:03]
Announcer
That was my plan.
- [38:04]
Joy Sullivan
Yeah, I know as soon as I.
- [38:05]
Announcer
Write a book, you're saying it doesn't work. It does not fix the depression.
- [38:08]
Joy Sullivan
I think for me, a lot of us, I sort of woke up in the pandemic and was like, am I doing the work that is meaningful? Am I living the life? It was like, a lot of us were like, am I doing things that feel really meaningful? And so I ended up just quitting my corporate job about three and a half years ago, leaving my relationship, selling my house, taking my two cats and getting in my Subaru and driving west until I hit Portland.
- [38:32]
Announcer
So you really did this. Instructions for traveling west is like, I did.
- [38:36]
Joy Sullivan
And you know, it's like for me there was privilege in that because I had means to do that. But it was kind of like an exercise in letting your intrusive thoughts win. Like, what if I burn everything down and I answer with my life. This instinct that says there's another life out there for you.
- [38:55]
Announcer
You rarely hear people say, trust your intrusive thoughts. It's not usually the message. But that's what we're here to talk about today on Livewire. You also write a substack that I'm now following. It's a great read. You're very, very open. You were mentioning, I feel comfortable saying this. It's in the substack that you were having a special moment with someone and called them dad instead of daddy, which is a totally different vibe in that scenario. Really, really changes the energy.
- [39:27]
Joy Sullivan
It really does.
- [39:29]
Announcer
And like, have you always been comfortable talking in that kind of detail about your life with strangers and radio hosts?
- [39:36]
Joy Sullivan
Well, you know, I'll say, like, I think a lot about if you haven't, if you don't have some blood on the page, like, it's not worth reading. I do think there is, especially in poetry. There has to be some exchange of vulnerability. I don't believe in using vulnerability as currency. Like, I'm not just going to be vulnerable because it's sensational, but I do think when there is some kind of emotional exchange, if I can open something about the universal human experience, that's something I want to share. I'm a big proponent in not being the hero of your own work all the time. So there's a lot of things that I share that I think people can really relate to. And that's one thing I like to do on substack.
- [40:18]
Announcer
And then also in the book, can we hear another poem?
- [40:21]
Joy Sullivan
Sure. This One is called Luck 3. I somehow got upgraded on my flight today to see my family. And because I'm almost never lucky, I'm trying to be very quiet about it. The attendants even gave me free whiskey at noon, which is definitely a mistake, but also one I'm going to make because it's free. And for the first time in a while, something nice and not horrible has happened. Also, if not for the grace of strangers who let me cut them in a holiday check in line that lasted for centuries, I most certainly would have missed my flight. Now I'm in premium class, drinking whiskey and worried. If anyone is nice to me, I'll sob. A woman on Instagram once posted about the fact that she gets upgraded on flights all the time because she's able to manifest luxury and the universe loves her like a little spoiled brat. And God, I can't relate. I'm decidedly not the universe's spoiled brat. I'm no one's petit shoe. I'm the universe's weird great aunt. The one drinking whiskey and writing poems in the bathroom and swiping left on bumble and running for her flight, terrified she won't get home for Christmas. The 30something woman who's just trying to get there, wherever there is.
- [41:39]
Announcer
That's Joy Sullivan reading from Instructions for Traveling West. Do you feel like we can affect our luck? Are we just unlucky or lucky or can we do something?
- [41:53]
Joy Sullivan
Well, I think the beauty of being a poet and a writer is that you can literally shift a narrative. And I think something amazing happens when you start writing things down on the page. You sort of bring things into existence and you can also reshape a story. So I found, like when I started writing, I wrote Instructions for Traveling west as a poem. And 40 days later, that poem, which is the titular poem of the book, I had sold my house and left my job. And so I think what we write down literally on the page shifts our luck, changes our stories and drives something new into existence.
- [42:32]
Announcer
You're also a teacher, and I'm wondering, people must ask you all the time, like a lot of people have a dream probably of writing, particularly maybe of writing poetry. And I mean, you did this kind of scary thing of going from a sort of civilian life, corporate life to this. What is your advice to people who have had this dream to kind of write and have never really had a chance to do it?
- [42:54]
Joy Sullivan
Yeah, I think a lot about instinct. And like, you know, I think about this when I was writing the book. It's all about following your instincts. And there's like these geese, like, who's the first goose that's like, it's time to go, you know, we gotta fly south. And I think in us, in people, there's that same instinct that's trying to get us to go somewhere, somewhere new. And so I tell people, like, you don't have to leap all at once. It looks like I did because I did this really dramatic move and I sort of burned everything down. But I scooched for a really long time, you know. And so if that's you, I would say, say, you know, if you have the dream, it's okay to scooch to the edge for a long time and you'll learn scooching. You'll get braver as you go.
- [43:38]
Announcer
Yeah, scooching towards greatness.
- [43:40]
Joy Sullivan
That's right.
- [43:41]
Announcer
Joy Sullivan's follow up to Instructions for Traveling West. Joy, thank you so much for coming on Livewire.
- [43:46]
Joy Sullivan
Thank you so much for having me.
- [43:50]
Luke Burbank
That was Joy Sullivan right here on Livewire. Her latest poetry collection, Instructions for Traveling west is available right now. It's livewire. I'm Luke Burbank with Elena Passarella. We need to take a very quick break, but don't go anywhere. When we come back, we're going to get some music from indie rock artist Danielle Durek. More Livewire coming your way just after this.
- [44:24]
Announcer
Livewire is sponsored by Secret Aardvark hot sauce, celebrating 20 years of awesome sauce, plus a whole line of hot sauces and marinades, from their classic aardvark habanero hot sauce to their fiery reaper smoked and red scorpion. There's a sauce for every heat lover.
- [44:42]
Luke Burbank
Stay connected by following Secret Aardvark on.
- [44:44]
Announcer
Instagram, Facebook and TikTok for recipes, hot sauce, fun and more.
- [44:56]
Luke Burbank
Welcome back to Livewire from prx. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. Oh, it is time for one of my favorite parts of the show when we play Station Location Identification Examination. This is where we quiz Elena Passarello, one of the number one geography knowers in America by my, by my estimation. Anyway, okay. About a place in the US where LiveWire is on the radio. Elena's got to guess where I am talking about. This was at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. Elena was putting her brains on full display in front of the live audience.
- [45:35]
Announcer
Okay, so here we go. Station Location Identification Examination. It's home to a place called Seven Keys Lodge, which is named for a popular mystery novel. And with it having that name and being named for that novel, people have started to bring, or over the years have brought keys to this hotel, this lodge, and now they have like 20,000 keys which have been given to them by visitors and dignitaries. It's like a whole thing. Okay, I've got another, I've got another hint here. It's also home to the Stanley Hotel, which was built in 1909 and was the first hotel in the state. And it served as the inspiration for Stephen King's the Shining.
- [46:18]
Elena Passarello
It's in Colorado.
- [46:19]
Announcer
Okay. Yes, you're right. You're in the right state.
- [46:22]
Elena Passarello
Is it Overland Park, Colorado?
- [46:25]
Announcer
It has park in the name.
- [46:26]
Elena Passarello
Park. Is it Anderson Park, Colorado?
- [46:29]
Luke Burbank
It is.
- [46:30]
Announcer
It's one of the great hip hop producers of its era, Anderson Paak, Colorado.
- [46:35]
Elena Passarello
That's it.
- [46:36]
Announcer
No, it's got first, second word. Park, first word. Oh, you're right.
- [46:44]
Luke Burbank
Estes Park, Colorado. Exactly right. Where we're on the radio on K.
- [46:49]
Announcer
E N C.
- [46:52]
Luke Burbank
All right, there you go. Big shout out to our friends Tuning in from Estes Park, Colorado, it's livewire. Before we get to our musical guest, a little preview of what we're doing on the show next week. We are going to talk to the acclaimed writer and I am proud to say, Elaine, a friend of the show, Hanif Abdulraqib. He's talking about his latest book, there's Always this year, which is kind of a reflection on his love of basketball, but it's also about fathers and sons. It's about the city of Columbus, Ohio, and critically, it is about a very strange song that the city of Cleveland put together called we are Lebron. Well, luckily next week we're going to have some actually good music from indie rocker Kristin Hirsch, who you probably know from co founding the band Throwing Muses. She's going to play a song for us and also talk about her book, the Future of Songwriting, which talks about creativity and commerce and why Australia insists on being so warm at Christmas time. Rude. Anyway, all that coming up on the show next week. Our musical guest this week hails from Phoenix, Arizona, by way of Nashville. Her 2019 album Bashful landed her on Spotify's New Music Friday as well as a tour with the band Clap your hands, say yeah. She's now out with her third album, It's Escape Artist, and it is cementing her status as an important voice in indie rock's next generation. This is Danielle Durek, recorded at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon.
- [48:22]
Carvel Wallace
Hi there.
- [48:23]
Announcer
Hello, Danielle. Well, what song are we going to hear from you?
- [48:27]
H
I'm going to play Moonsong.
- [48:28]
Announcer
And is this off your newest record?
- [48:30]
Joy Sullivan
It is, yes.
- [48:30]
Announcer
All right. This is Daniel Durek here on livewire.
- [48:54]
H
Living on earth keeps breaking my heart. So I've got my sight set on Venus, on Mars or some other rock we've on some other star. Guess it doesn't matter so long as it's far. Cause living on on earth keeps breaking my heart. Testing my patience and giving me scars and more they don't want still hide in your arms so send me away so so hard and almost staring at the moon. Cause it's so easy to see the bright side when it's glaring back. Living on earth keeps breaking my heart so made up my mind and I'm leaving tomorrow. I did all the math and I'm planning on watch I'll bring all my books and live on top of the place Living on if spirit breaking my heart. But I guess I'll admit I probably miss it a lot like mom and dad and Matt and my dog all those big little things you don't miss till they're gone in a staring eye Moon Cause it's so h to see bright side when it's glaring on earth keeping keeps breaking my heart but it always heals and life always goes on the world still turns so there's always tomorrow I'll hold on to hope cause it's all that I got.
- [51:48]
Danielle Durak
Thank you so much.
- [51:50]
Announcer
Wow. So good. Danielle Durek here on Livewire.
- [52:05]
Luke Burbank
That was Danielle Durek right here on Livewire performing Moon Song. All right, that's gonna do it for this week's episode of the show. A huge thanks to our guest Carvel Wallace, Joy Sullivan and Danielle Durak.
- [52:21]
Elena Passarello
Laura Hadden is our executive producer. Heather D. Michel is our executive director. And our producer and editor is Melody Savchenko. Eben Hoffer is our technical director. Leona Kinderman is our assistant technical director. And our house sound is by Dee Neal Blake. Ashley park is our production fellow. Becky Phillips and Andrea Castro Martinez are our interns.
- [52:41]
Luke Burbank
Our house band is Sam Pinkerton, Ethan Fox, Tucker Al, Alex and A. Walker Spring, who also composes our music. This episode was mixed by Eben Hoffer and Hazik Bin Ahmad Farid.
- [52:54]
Announcer
Welcome to the show, Hazik.
- [52:55]
Luke Burbank
Woohoo.
- [52:56]
Elena Passarello
Additional funding provided by the Marie Lamprum Charitable Foundation. Livewire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week we'd like to thank member Marcia Truman of Portland, Oregon and David Martin of Portland, Oregon.
- [53:09]
Luke Burbank
For more information about the show or how you can listen to our podcast, head ON over to livewireradio.org I'm Luke Burbank. For Elena Passarello and the whole Livewire crew. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week.
- [53:34]
Announcer
Prx.
- [53:40]
Luke Burbank
Wouldn't it be amazing to have a piping hot episode of Livewire delivered right.
- [53:46]
Announcer
To your heart and ears each week?
- [53:48]
Luke Burbank
Well, guess what?
- [53:49]
Announcer
That can happen when you subscribe to.
- [53:51]
Luke Burbank
The Livewire podcast feed and you'll get the joy of surprising conversation every week.
- [53:58]
Announcer
So go ahead and do it. It's super easy. You click on the button at the top of your podcast app and bam, you Livewire subscribed. And if you're still, you know, feeling the love, if you're enjoying the show, hey, maybe you could hook us up and leave us a quick review that'll help more people find out about Livewire. And thank you from prx.