← Live Wire with Luke Burbank
Live Wire with Luke Burbank
Chuck Klosterman, and Making Movies (REBROADCAST)
00:52:29
This episode features writer Chuck Klosterman and music from international rock group Making Movies.
Loading summary
Transcript145 lines
- [00:03]
Chuck Klosterman
Hey, there.
- [00:03]
Luke Burbank
Welcome to another edition of Livewire. I'm your host, Luke Burbank. All right, this week on the show, we are talking about the 90s. Remember them? CDs, dial up, Internet, Pauly Shore was somehow everywhere. The 1990s are also the subject of Chuck Klosterman's book, which is aptly titled the 90s. It was an instant New York Times bestseller. And in it, Chuck takes a deep dive into why the culture and and pop culture of the 1990s really was a big deal and has had a huge impact. And also how the kind of slacker ethos from the 90s made him embarrassed to become a successful writer, which he ended up doing anyway. We've also got a very special musical appearance from the international rock band Making Movies. It's going to be a fun show. So sit back, relax, crack a Zima, and get ready for Livewire. And I'll get started right after this.
- [01:01]
Elena Passarello
This show is supported by Odoo. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this.
- [01:10]
Enrique (Making Movies)
It's a single company that sells a.
- [01:12]
Elena Passarello
Suite of enterprise apps that handles everything.
- [01:14]
Luke Burbank
From accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single.
- [01:19]
Elena Passarello
Platform in a simple and affordable way.
- [01:21]
Luke Burbank
You can save money without missing out.
- [01:23]
Enrique (Making Movies)
On the features you need. Check out odoo@o d o o dot com.
- [01:27]
Elena Passarello
That's o d o o dot com.
- [01:30]
Luke Burbank
This episode of Livewire was originally recorded in September of 2022. We hope you enjoy it. Now let's get to the show.
- [01:39]
Elena Passarello
From prx, it's Livewire. This week, podcaster and writer Chuck Klosterman.
- [01:53]
Chuck Klosterman
What I say in the book basically is that of the kind of canonical generations, that Generation X is the least annoying. The next line of that is that this is mostly due to size because it's the smallest generation, so there's less people to be annoying.
- [02:07]
Elena Passarello
And music from making movies.
- [02:09]
Enrique (Making Movies)
We're using the same ingredients that made the jambalaya of rock and roll. We're going back to those ingredients, but we have a new recipe.
- [02:19]
Elena Passarello
I'm your announcer, Elena Passarello, and now the host of Livewire, Luke Burbank.
- [02:27]
Luke Burbank
Hey, thank you so much, Elena Passarello. Thanks to everyone for tuning in from all over the country. We've got a great show in store this week. We are talking about the 90s because of Chuck Klosterman's really incredible book, the 90s. We asked Livewire listeners to tell us something that they are Most nostalgic for from the 90s. We're going to hear those responses coming up in just a bit. First though, of course we've got to kick things off with the best news we heard all week. This is our little reminder at the top of the show that there is in fact some good news happening in some places in this country. And we like to tell you about that. Elena, what's the best news that you heard all week?
- [03:08]
Elena Passarello
I don't think we've ever had roller skating news on the best news. I think I'm correct in that I.
- [03:14]
Luke Burbank
Think I would remember because I was a big roller skating fan as a kid. Same Linwood Rollaway, which was connected to a bowling alley called Linwood Bowlaway. Very clever naming conventions. And I lived for going there and roller skating on the fast skate to Pour Some Sugar on Me by Def Leppard.
- [03:30]
Elena Passarello
Oh, heck fire. Yeah, I was a big skater back in the day, but also in my 20s and I had this great pair of like sneaker skates that I used to toodle around. But we had to get rid of them when we were moving cause we were kind of selling everything so that we could go through David could go to grad school. And that's why this story appeals to me, because it is another story of a person selling their roller skates at a yard sale. The person is Halifax, Nova Scotia's Renee Forestall. For her 60th birthday, she was reflecting on times in her life where she felt free and powerful. And she realized that when she was a roller skating fool 45 years ago, that was a time in her life in which she felt that way. So for her 60th birthday she bought a pair of brand new kind of black leather roller skates with these amazing LED light up wheels. She started practicing with them for about a week and she was disappointed because like a lot of things, they just didn't feel like they were made as well as the skates that she had back in the 70s. So she goes on Facebook Marketplace to look for a vintage pair that resembles the pair that she had. White with kind of a red wheels. She finds a pair that are pretty dirty but, but look pretty similar to the kind that she had when she was a teenager and they had just been posted two hours before. She goes and checks them out. She puts them on her feet. They're unsized. The person who was selling them did not even know what size they were. But she went out on a limb and went there, puts her feet in them and they feel really Good. Like Cinderella good. And then she turns the tongue of the roller skates out so she can see inside and. And her name is written on the.
- [05:13]
Chuck Klosterman
In her handwriting.
- [05:15]
Luke Burbank
Oh, my gosh. They were her skates from, like, years and years ago.
- [05:19]
Elena Passarello
These were skates that she had sold at a yard sale 45 years ago. And apparently they had just been gathering dust in this basement ever since, like the Carter administration. And then somebody decided to sell them. She went to a skate shop and she got those bad boys tricked out. New wheels, super cleaning. She left, however, the hooks where they were because they're kind of hard to lace up. And she just has a sense memory of it taking forever when she was little. So she left kind of the wonky hooks, and now she is a skate and fool in the exact same skates that she wore back when skating was her life. Is there a better story than that?
- [05:59]
Luke Burbank
That is incredible.
- [06:00]
Elena Passarello
I just hope my skates that I sold at a yard sale in grand rapids, Michigan, in 2011 will come back to me.
- [06:08]
Luke Burbank
If anyone has Atlanta skates in Grand Rapids, hit us up. We need to get those back. The best news that I saw this week comes from Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, where a guy named Johnny Bell was celebrating a big milestone. He was celebrating 70 years on the job as a mail carrier in Oklahoma City, which officially makes him the longest serving USPS employee in America. Whoa. 70 years. He's been delivering mail in Oklahoma City. He started when he was 23 years old. It paid $1.81 an hour when he started. And he just absolutely loves the job. And he says, you know, it's keeping him young. There's a picture of this guy, Johnny Bell, in the article. He's 93, right? Because if he started when he was 23 and he's been doing it for 70 years, oh, my God, he looks great. Everyone needs to throw out whatever fad fitness plan they're into and just become mail carriers. It is like the fountain of youth for this guy Johnny. He's doing great.
- [07:06]
Elena Passarello
Was he like, a walking mail carrier?
- [07:08]
Luke Burbank
I think so. It's what it sounds like, according to the article. And he, you know, obviously would get all the mail back at the home office and bundle up his particular route and then take it out there and do his route. The other thing was, when I read this article, I assumed this was his retirement party. No, this was just celebrating that he has been doing this for 70 years. They write in the article that he enjoyed a little bit of cake. Everyone said, congratulations, Johnny, and then he just got his bundle Together, went back out to deliver the mail like this was just another day for this dude. This is how they describe Johnny Bell. A humble man of few words, but when he does speak, everyone listens. I have never been described that way in any capacity anywhere. So Johnny Bell celebrating 70 years on the job in Oklahoma City. That's the best news that I heard this week. All right, let's invite our first guest on over to the show. GQ calls him Generation X's definitive chronicler of culture. Chuck Klosterman is the best selling author of a dozen books of fiction and nonfiction, including Raised in Captivity and Sex, Drugs and Cocoa Puffs. He's written for the New York Times, the Washington Post, Esquire, and lots of other places. His latest book, the 90s, was an instant New York Times bestseller. And it is fascinating. Chuck joined us on stage at Revolution hall in Portland, Oregon. Let's take a listen to that, Chuck. Welcome back to the show.
- [08:46]
Chuck Klosterman
It's great to be here.
- [08:48]
Luke Burbank
You start off kind of making the case for why the 90s were actually a more interesting and kind of important decade than people might think. Because a lot of us think of the 90s as being kind of relatively calm, pretty prosperous. What is it about the 90s, though, that made you want to write about it? Why is the 90s actually more impactful than we think?
- [09:06]
Chuck Klosterman
Well, you know, that's an interesting question. Is there a decade that's unimportant, really? I mean, it's a 10 year window of time.
- [09:14]
Luke Burbank
Yeah.
- [09:14]
Chuck Klosterman
It's always surprising to me that people are like, oh, I guess things in the 90s actually mattered. It was like, well, I mean, the world was happening, you know. Cause what's the least important decade of the 20th century? If we had to make an argument, I suppose we would say the first ten years. Just because they're discussed the least. Because the twenties have sort of an immutable quality. The thirties had the Depression, the forties. Obviously things happen then. And then, you know, the fifties were kind of the building of America. The sixties were transformative. The seventies were the seventies. So why did I do this? Well, you know, there's always like a short answer and a long answer, and the short answer is true. And it's like, I don't know what I'm compelled to do. I just do what I do. You know, I never really think about it. The long answer would be all these other things where I would be like, well, you know, I had this fear that the way sort of history is understood now tends to be through this highly specific kind of personal view, and it makes it much more subjective. I almost feel as though it will be increasingly difficult to get an understanding of the recent past because people will take the ideas of the present and just want to inject it back into that period. I also do think in a lot of ways the 90s were the last decade that we're going to have, at least in the way that we've always understood what that meant. You know, the idea that there is this period of time where there are sort of shared ideas, shared experiences, things that people who aren't even involved with are almost forced to understand because the monoculture was still sort of central to everything. And that to me was important. But, like, I mean, really, it's an impossible thing to know why I did something. I just did it. You know what I'm saying?
- [11:02]
Luke Burbank
You also mention in the book that, like, when you're talking about the 90s, you're not really strictly talking about, like, January 1, 1990 to December 31, 1999. You're kind of saying it's the. It's the fall of the Berlin WALL and then 9 11, which is kind of shifts it over by a few years.
- [11:17]
Chuck Klosterman
Well, yes and no.
- [11:18]
Luke Burbank
Okay.
- [11:19]
Chuck Klosterman
I mean, yes, I am not using the calendar as a way to describe the time itself because that's just not how things work. I mean, it's not like people pull off, you know, the December of their calendar and it's like, I'm a new person now. The world is different. Like, it. It tends to be. Events are sort of just sort of shifts now. Most historians now, it seems to be, use the fall of the Berlin Wall and 911 as sort of the framing device. I actually don't use the fall of the Berlin Wall. I mentioned that. Many people view that, but I really use the release of Nirvana's Nevermind.
- [11:52]
Luke Burbank
Right. In fact, I believe you have. I'm paraphrasing here, but you have a line in the book that's something like, while the video for Smells Like Teen Spirit is not more culturally impactful than the reunification of Germany, it was an inflection point.
- [12:05]
Chuck Klosterman
Well, yes, that's. That's ex. Exactly it. I mean, because when you look at, say, the year 1990, it still very much felt like the 1980s. I mean, like Trickster and Poison and Firehouse were touring, you know, and, you know, it's like you could still like, buy like a Garfield phone from the Sears catalog at Christmas. You know, Joe Montana was the best player in the NFL. Cheers was the most Popular show Twin Peaks had come out, but that seemed like, you know, really kind of, kind of fringe, arcane thing. The 90s still have a lot of 80s qualities, but this is very common. I mean, if you look at a picture of a, say, a Chicago high school from 1961, people are gonna think it's the 50s. I mean, if you play the first Nine Inch Nails record, which came out in 1989, people aren't gonna be like, oh, 80s music. It's like it's gonna. So like these. There are certain things that sort of shift the culture. And after Nevermind came out and sort of had, you know, had a musical impact that was massive, but its non musical impact was even greater because there seemed to be this sudden realization that if you wanted to understand any young person or if you wanted to understand where the culture and society as a whole was moving, you first had to understand like why this specific person looked and acted and dressed the way he did. And the 90s as we understand it, like the caricature or the cliche of the 90s really begins in 91.
- [13:32]
Luke Burbank
We have to take a quick break. Here on Livewire, we're talking to Chuck Klosterman. His latest book is the 90s. We're going to hear more about that coming up in a moment. Stay with us. Back with more Livewire after this. Welcome back to Livewire. Coming to you this week from Revolution hall right here in Portland, Oregon, I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. We are talking to Chuck Klosterman, the writer. His, his latest book is the 90s. A lot of this book talks about Generation X, which you have documented in various forms over the years. You're a member of Gen X. You write that of the generations that have not gone extinct yet, you think Generation X is the least annoying. What causes you to write that?
- [14:41]
Chuck Klosterman
Okay, I'm very glad you brought this up. Right. Because in every review of this book, particularly the negative ones, they always note that line, right? And what I say in the book basically is that of the kind of canonical generations, you know, baby boomers, millennials, all these, that that Generation X is the least annoying. The next line of that is that this is mostly due to size because it's the smallest generation, so there's less people to be annoying.
- [15:07]
Luke Burbank
It's the smallest pig going through the python, basically.
- [15:10]
Chuck Klosterman
And yet beyond that, there is, I think, this, in my view, and I think something has happened that maybe validates this, that for whatever reason, it's like they seemed to complain Less pedantically than baby boomers and less aggressively than millennials. Okay? And here is my proof of that. Okay? So when I make. When I read, two thirds of our.
- [15:32]
Luke Burbank
Audience just walked out of Revolution Hall.
- [15:34]
Chuck Klosterman
Okay, no, and here's why. And I feel like. Well, when I wrote that, I was like, well, we'll see what the reaction to this is. Now I'm pretty certain I'm right. Here's why. So this one line where I say generation X was the least annoying, many, many people have complained about that. If they are older or younger than that window of time, they find, okay, within that same page, I talk about how, well, Gen Xers were kind of apathetic. They'll probably never be a Gen X president. They didn't really have much consequence on the culture. They sort of had a kind of an insular view. They were very self absorbed. They were kind of solipsistic, all these things. You know how many Gen Xers have complained about that? None. Like, there has not been everybody older or younger than me who reads the assumption or the assertion that Generation X are not the least annoying. Not even. I'm not even saying they're unannoying. I mean, I'm pretty annoying, right? It's like. Which maybe hurts the argument. And it's very easy for people to go like, what is this dude telling me? Okay. But okay, nonetheless, that they seem to think my claim that the one quality that's good about Generation X is that they weren't very annoying and that they didn't try to kind of inflict their values onto other people. And it was kind of uncouth to moralize. Like, they can't believe that I would somehow make this claim. And yet every negative thing I say about Gen X, the people who are part of that demographic are like, well, I mean, I guess, sure, whatever. I mean, I don't know, maybe, you know, it's like, so now I know I'm right. Like, initially I was like, I'm gonna just play this gambit, see what happens. And like, now I'm correct on that.
- [17:22]
Luke Burbank
You also write in the book that the movie Reality Bites, you say that it presents a sort of a set of values that could only make sense based on it being 1994.
- [17:32]
Chuck Klosterman
Well, yes, and I probably have now written and talked about Reality Bites more than any person should.
- [17:37]
Luke Burbank
But I can tell you that just as far as the Livewire staff is concerned, they're ready for more. It touched off a long conversation before we even started recording this show.
- [17:47]
Chuck Klosterman
Because, I mean, like, not to run through the whole plot of the movie, but essentially this is a movie that was designed for Generation X people. Like, it wasn't a situation like, say, oh, like Starry Night Fever or whatever, which becomes a period piece, even though at the time they just thought they were making a movie. Now we look at Saturday Night Fever is a way to understand disco culture in Jersey and New York during this specific time. But Generation X there was like, we're going after this demo with this movie, okay? And we have a love triangle in this movie. And we have sort of, you know, Winona Ryder, she's trying to choose between these two guys. Ben Stiller, who is sort of the corporate sellout, although he's trying to help her, gives her money, buys her stuff, really supports her, is a pretty good guy. And then there's also Ethan Hawke, who's sort of like, like the slacker from central casting. Like, he's this Byronic, like, person who's, like, goes around describing irony and realizing it's ironic that he knows that, you know, eats a Snicker bar without unwrapping it because it's like, too much work or whatever, you know. So then at the end of the movie, Winoni Rider ends up going with Ethan Hawke, even though it's like, he's not a very good boyfriend and pretty mean to her. Now, I watch this movie as a senior in college, and me and all my friends watch it. And then I think we go on a Friday and we watch a syndicated episode of Siskel and Ebert at the Movies that weekend. And Siskel and Ebert both don't really like the movie. And they're like, winona Ryder chose the wrong guy. Why'd she choose this jerk? This other person is, you know, good for her life. And at the time, we all thought the same thing. We were like, well, that just proves that we're younger and they're older, that we see this relationship as kind of dynamic and real and authentic and all this stuff.
- [19:28]
Luke Burbank
So you were rooting for her to be with Ethan Hawke, which seemed obvious to us.
- [19:31]
Chuck Klosterman
It seemed obvious that that would be the only way you would. The only person you would choose in that. And I assume this would be. This would transcend time, that if you showed this movie to a 16 year old right now, they'd be like, of course. You know, it turns out that's not true. That it was only people who were Young in the mid-90s who look at that movie and it's like, that's the guy. Everybody else is like, is she crazy. You know, like, it only made sense in 1994 because that was the. That was the one period of time, really, we're looking at 91, maybe to 96, where being an authentic jerk was a more admirable quality than being a compromised anything. Like, you know, that anyone who in any way did anything to, like, make themselves more beloved or more popular to people who weren't their peers, that was what we called sellouts at the time. You know, and that's sort of what Ben's. And the reason that movie is so effective is in some ways, it's kind of the sellout version of the problem. Cause that's a mainstream movie. There's all this, like, a product placement in it. The script was rewritten 80 times. The woman who wrote the script initially wrote it about her friends. And it got changed just like it did to Winona, writer in this movie. But that's maybe why it understands the problem so profoundly. Like it actually is the situation it's describing.
- [20:53]
Luke Burbank
We had one staffer say that they think it has affected their dating life negatively, permanently, because of what happens in the movie. Reality bites. So the ripples continue.
- [21:04]
Chuck Klosterman
I know I was damaged by this idea of selling out. I know I was. Because it was such a complicated idea and it was so central to everything that you. It didn't matter. You couldn't change what you do. You couldn't in any way try to appeal. Yet you had to look at everything you did as having integrity in and of itself. And as a consequence, like, even promoting a book like this, I feel terrible. I mean. Cause I really. I got back kind of into a 90s mindset when I did this. Cause I was like. I wrote this book during the pandemic. But what happened is I have two kids. And it was real complicated as it was for I'm sure everybody here. But I'd get up at 5 in the morning and I'd write till 9am basically before my kid did his online school. So I'd have like four or five hours where I was living in the 90s. And I started to sort of get back into some of this thinking. And it makes it really hard to promote a book when you believe promoting a book means you're awful.
- [22:00]
Luke Burbank
Right?
- [22:00]
Chuck Klosterman
And like that. It's just like. It's embarrassing to try to convince someone to buy it, you know? And I would tell my publisher that, and they didn't love to hear that, you know? And I was like. I was like, I'm kind of embarrassed to go on tour. I Said, well, gosh, it's like, I.
- [22:14]
Luke Burbank
Don'T want to be the Ben Stiller of this situation. I want to be the Ethan Hawke. We're talking to Chuck Klosterman, who's the Chuck Klosterman of writing his new book is the 90s. And obviously, like, the maybe hugest thing that happened in the 90s that changed our life was the Internet coming along. And you write about it in the book, and you say it's kind of like the invention of the wheel. But you point out something that I hadn't thought of, which was the axle that really was what they needed to invent. Like, the wheel had been around for a while. How does that sort of relate to the Internet for you?
- [22:45]
Chuck Klosterman
Well, I was always sort of fascinated when you find out how long the wheel has existed, because it's so much less than the length of time mankind has existed. And it's like somebody had to see a log roll down a hill, Right? You know, it's like, how did it never occur to them that this is better than dragging things on the ground? But the thing was, until it really got to the Bronze Age or whatever, did they have the ability to create an axle so that you could have a cart that's stationary and then the wheel that moves independently? And in a way, that's sort of how the Internet was, because we're always trying to figure out when it actually started. But what we're really thinking about in many ways is people's relationships to personal computing that, like, there are people who would argue that the. The origin of the Internet was in the 60s or whatever, you know, from military purposes or whatever, you know, but it wasn't until people sort of became comfortable with the idea of a home computer, and then the idea of how these. This network of network could operate did then we kind of start building off that. You know, I mean, there are many interesting things about this. Like, I didn't really write about this in the book, but other people have noted how the 1980s was the beginning of Atari and Nintendo and all those things. And what was happening during the 80s then is you had parents upstairs in the living room watching television, and they had kids downstairs playing Atari and Nintendo. And to those kids, the idea of manipulating what you saw on the screen was not weird. It was normal. It was like, I've played Centipede or whatever. So when they get into the kind of the Internet culture, they almost feel native to it already, like, it makes sense to them. Whereas for the people who predate that, it was almost like, well, wait a second. So this is not just a monitor. These are people.
- [24:27]
Luke Burbank
Like, it's interactive.
- [24:29]
Chuck Klosterman
Exactly, yeah.
- [24:30]
Elena Passarello
TV made of people.
- [24:31]
Luke Burbank
Right.
- [24:31]
Elena Passarello
Like you say in the book.
- [24:33]
Luke Burbank
I'm wondering how you actually set about even writing a book like this. Like, do you just lay out a bunch of big moments that you think were culturally significant, and then you write about them wherever it was they landed during the decade? Like, this just seems like a very ambitious project.
- [24:49]
Chuck Klosterman
You know, I had never done so much of my other work, even if it was about the 90s or about some of these same ideas. I mean, I'd written about Nirvana before. I'd written about David Koresh before, and I'd written about, you know, the Unabomber and all these things, but that was always done kind of in an essayistic way where it was just sort of my personal relationship to the thing. And I knew that this book couldn't be like that. So as far as picking the things, it's like, I don't know. I just. I tried to distance my own experience from it. But I did have a benefit that, you know, I came from North Dakota and then lived kind of in suburban Ohio, where during the 90s, the experience I had was really the most mainstream view of that period. I mean, particularly in North Dakota. Like, the news and the culture that gets to North Dakota are the things that start on the coast and they say still exist, all when they finally get to the middle of the continent, you know? So I thought to myself, well, in some ways, in a book like this, this is an advantage, right? I was trying to write something that is big picture, you know, like, there was at one point, like, I wrote about Nirvana. At one point I was thinking like, well, I want to write about Jane's Addiction. Because Jane's Addiction is something that really starts in the 80s, and it's part of, like, really part of hair metal to a degree. And then it becomes this sort of alternative idea. And then, you know, Perry Farrell ends up starting Lollapalooza and all that stuff. And I was thinking, maybe that should be the. The musical artist I use to describe this. But I'm like, that would be a little bit like if I wrote a book on the 60s, and I was like, I'm gonna write about the Kinks. I'm not writing about the Beatles, right? Because, you know, I was like, but if you write about the 60s, you write about the Beatles. And if you write about the 90s, you write about Nirvana, you write about Bill Clinton, you write about the Internet. You know, you read about Quentin Tarantino. So I. So while I think that there's a certain kind of person who might be like, well, he just kind of did the obvious stuff. And I was like, well, yes, because in 50 years it won't be obvious. Because nothing will be obvious in 50 years.
- [26:48]
Luke Burbank
We're talking to Chuck Klosterman about his latest book, the 90s. So, as is obvious, you have spent a lot of time considering the 90s from a kind of an intellectual perspective. But we wanted to get your gut level reaction to some 90s scenarios. First, though. I mean, are you up for this, Chuck? Okay. Because we're calling this exercise Chuck Klosterman. What's your opinion?
- [27:12]
Chuck Klosterman
Hey, hey, hey. I said, hey, what's your opinion?
- [27:24]
Luke Burbank
Yes, that's right. Livewire House band. So here's how this is gonna work, Chuck. Elena Passarello is gonna read you a couple of scenarios. These are inspired from your book. And we are gonna ask you which scenario you would prefer. It's a sort of would you rather 90s edition.
- [27:45]
Elena Passarello
Okay. Would you rather have Ross Perot as your president or Pauly Shore as your roommate?
- [27:57]
Chuck Klosterman
Okay, so Ross Perot probably was not qualified to be president. Pauly Shore would have been qualified to be my. And in fact, you know, I lived with people who weren't that far from your Persona. Well, I mean, also, you know, Pauly Shore was much older than he played. Like in Ceno man, for example, he's playing a high school kid. Like, he looks 27 in that movie, you know, but he just kind of, you know, he made up his own language. If you make up your own language, you become younger. You know, I really. I guess I think that the entire world we live in now could be so completely different if HR Oz Pro had won that election that, you know, it seems hard to imagine it being worse, but who knows? So I would go with Pauly Shore in this one. I mean, I think that. Well, I don't think I deserve applause for this, but it's like. I mean, we have some common interests, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [29:04]
Luke Burbank
Wheezing the juice.
- [29:06]
Chuck Klosterman
Exactly. Absolutely. You know, grindage and things like that. All right.
- [29:11]
Luke Burbank
Yeah, you reasoned through that one admirably, Chuck. All right.
- [29:14]
Elena Passarello
It's good to hear the system of logic.
- [29:16]
Chuck Klosterman
Okay, how about this one?
- [29:18]
Elena Passarello
Which would you rather drink for the rest of your life?
- [29:21]
Chuck Klosterman
I know one's gonna be Zima.
- [29:22]
Elena Passarello
Correct. Okay, can you guess what the other one is?
- [29:26]
Chuck Klosterman
The other one's gonna be like, what, like crystal Pepsi or something?
- [29:29]
Elena Passarello
Exactly.
- [29:30]
Chuck Klosterman
You don't even have to answer the question.
- [29:32]
Luke Burbank
Why did you write this book? Yeah, right.
- [29:35]
Chuck Klosterman
Okay, so I remember the night that I saw Zima for the first time. And this idea. I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I remember me and some other guys talking. It's like, this is gonna get a lot of people drunk who don't usually get drunk. Oh, Jesus. Because it looks like water, right? It's like, this is really going to enhance the energy at parties, right? But what you realize with Zima is that every single Zima you have for the rest of your life gets worse than the previous one. Like, it is the opposite of an acquired taste where, like, you know, the first time you have coffee, it doesn't taste so great, and then eventually you're addicted to it. Zima's the opposite. Every Zima you have is worse. It's kind of like going to Las Vegas. Like, every time you go there, it's less fun than you remember it. So if I drank nothing but Zima for the rest of my life, that would mean until I die, every time I'm thirsty, I would know what I'm going to consume is worse than the last thing I had when I was previously thirsty. Crystal Pepsi was actually just Pepsi without coloring. So then I'd be drinking Pepsi my whole life. I mean, I guess I'll do that. I will accept that.
- [30:50]
Luke Burbank
What a life. You and Pauly Shore drinking your Crystal Pepsi. Okay, one more before we wrap this up.
- [30:58]
Elena Passarello
Okay. Sorry to do this one to you. Would you rather have to listen to the slap bass from Seinfeld every time you enter a room, or would you rather have to listen to the opening flute riff of My Heart Will Go On Every time you're about to get busy, I say get busy because it's very 90s.
- [31:18]
Chuck Klosterman
Yeah, well, okay. I mean, I'm married, I have two kids, but I am entering rooms way more often than I'm having sex. I don't think that's. I don't think this is an outrageous thing. Like, if somebody's like, I don't know, it's like they too many times a day, so.
- [31:37]
Luke Burbank
I love how so seriously you take this stuff, Chuck. I mean, this is what's so wonderful about your brain. I mean, and your logic is actually pretty unassailable. You're like, okay, of these two things, what's going to be occurring more often?
- [31:50]
Chuck Klosterman
Sure, yeah, yeah. It's like it's all volume, you know? And. And if. If, like, if I had just walked out here for this interview and the slap bass had happened, that wouldn't be so bad. You know, I spent. I suppose, if it's the heart will go on thing. It's like, I almost feel like I gotta ask my wife about this. You know, that's something that needs consent. Yeah. And also, like, my kids are 8 and 6, right. So at some point, they're gonna be, like, 16 and 14, and they're gonna start putting this together. Yeah. They're like, it's weird that this happens. And it's like. Yeah.
- [32:29]
Luke Burbank
So you're choosing.
- [32:30]
Chuck Klosterman
I got Seinfeld Slap base. Sure. You know.
- [32:33]
Luke Burbank
All right, one last question. This isn't from the quiz, but I'm just curious. The COVID of this book, I think, is so genius. You have selected maybe one of the more iconic visuals from the 90s, which is the corded telephone that was clear so you could see inside all of the electronics. Why'd you pick this?
- [32:54]
Chuck Klosterman
So I had that phone. Right Now I bought that phone. And this is maybe a strange reason, because in the patients video, Axl Rose smashes it with his foot. Do you remember that? Like, I saw that video and bought that phone the next day. That's how interesting I was at the time. So I told my editor, I was like, what if we just have one of those clear phones? Because it's like that was what the future was assumed to be like in the past. Kind of like if you go to Disneyland and they have that Land of tomorrow, Whatever. Yeah. But it's the World of tomorrow from the 50s. So it's like we're all going to be eating at restaurants where we all have our own table. Like, these ideas that nobody never happened, but they were like, maybe. So I was like, so that's what. To me, that phone is sort of like, that's what we thought about the future when we did not believe the future would actually be different. Like, we thought it would still be people using phones in the same way we use them now. But we're going to make this one clear.
- [33:52]
Elena Passarello
Like Pepsi.
- [33:55]
Luke Burbank
It's a great book. The 90s, a book by Chuck Klosterman. Thank you, Chuck, so much. That was Chuck Klosterman right here on Livewire, recorded at Revolution hall in Portland, Oregon. Chuck's book, the 90s, is available now. Hey, special thanks this episode to Jane Johnson of Everett, Washington, and James Dash of Portland, Oregon. Jane and James are part of the Livewire member community, and they are generously supporting us with a donation each month, which we are very thankful for, because it is genuinely how we are able to keep doing the show. So a big thanks to Jane and James for keeping Livewire going. Livewire is brought to you by Powell's Books, A Portland institution since 1971. Powell's offers a selection of new and used books in stores and online@powells.com this is Livewire, of course. Each week we like to ask our listeners a question. We were inspired by Chuck Klosterman's book the 90s this week. So we asked the Livewire listeners, what are you most nostalgic for? From the 90s. Elena has been collecting up those responses. What are you seeing?
- [35:24]
Elena Passarello
Oh, my gosh, these are so good. Burbank. Maybe because I am a child and early adult of the 90s.
- [35:30]
Luke Burbank
Yeah, this is really in our, like, demographic wheelhouse for you and I.
- [35:35]
Elena Passarello
Here's something from the 90s that Heidi is nostalgic for. TV theme songs.
- [35:40]
Luke Burbank
They have gotten rid of the TV theme song now. I, I, they probably figure we can squeeze another minute of advertising in if we don't spend so much time singing about what's gonna happen.
- [35:50]
Elena Passarello
Best TV show theme song. Do you have an opinion?
- [35:53]
Luke Burbank
Well, this is not a particularly interesting answer, but I do think that Cheers has a pretty, I mean, it just puts you in a mood to watch that show.
- [36:02]
Elena Passarello
Same.
- [36:03]
Luke Burbank
But you know, I like the Mary Tyler Moore show theme song as well.
- [36:07]
Elena Passarello
Very, very good. How about you? I think for the same reason Golden Girls like, it's also a great karaoke song. If anybody's looking for a. You're in, you're out, you make everybody sing along.
- [36:17]
Luke Burbank
Yes.
- [36:18]
Enrique (Making Movies)
All right.
- [36:18]
Luke Burbank
Something else that one of our listeners is nostalgic for. From the 90s.
- [36:21]
Elena Passarello
Is it okay if I do some things else? I just want to give you a few more of these.
- [36:24]
Luke Burbank
Yeah, let's do it. Just, just rip through some.
- [36:26]
Elena Passarello
All right, here we go. We are nostalgic for dumb phones. Thanks, Tim. Short sleeve flannels worn over long sleeve thermals.
- [36:36]
Chuck Klosterman
Oh, my gosh.
- [36:37]
Luke Burbank
That was my look.
- [36:38]
Elena Passarello
The Eddie Vedder blissful ignorance. Thanks, Anna. The Scholastic book order form. Ah, TV channels that played music videos, life without social media, hypercolor, Dr. Pepper flavored lip smackers and LA gear aerobics tennis shoes.
- [37:01]
Luke Burbank
We could do 10 minutes on each one of those topics that you just raised because they were all a big part of the pop culture of my teenage years. One more before we get out of here.
- [37:11]
Elena Passarello
Well, I mean, this one from Lynn. I think we're all very nostalgic for not being so online. Our brains were like pink Jolly ranchers. You know?
- [37:22]
Luke Burbank
Yes. Just I had like an attention span. Is that what they call it?
- [37:27]
Elena Passarello
Yeah.
- [37:28]
Luke Burbank
My brain was actually able to create its own serotonin. Gosh, what a time.
- [37:32]
Elena Passarello
I would call people on the phone and we would just have uninterrupted conversations. But I couldn't pace while I was doing it because the phone was plugged into the wall.
- [37:40]
Luke Burbank
Right. Or you had that really long cord. Then you'd go, like, because the phone was always in the kitchen or some public space. But you would, you know, want to talk to your crush or whatever. So you'd get that long cord and you'd go hide in a closet or something. It was a fun time. All right. Thanks to everyone who sent in their things they were nostalgic for from the 90s. Those were all really, really good suggestions. This is Livewire. NPR calls our musical guest this week, one of the most unique groups around today, and they certainly are Making Movies incorporates traditional Latin American instruments and sounds into their truly one of a kind style, creating American music, as they say, with an asterisk because it represents all of the Americas. They've shared the stage with such artists as Arcade Fire, Los Lobos, Thievery Corporation, and Rodrigo y Gabriela. And their fourth album, sopa, dropped this summer, Making Movies joined us on stage at Revolution hall in Portland, Oregon. Take a listen.
- [38:42]
Enrique (Making Movies)
Good evening.
- [38:43]
Luke Burbank
Hello there. Welcome to the show.
- [38:45]
Enrique (Making Movies)
Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having us.
- [38:47]
Luke Burbank
So, Enrique, I was curious. You and your brother Diego were born in Panama, but you moved when you were 6, and Diego, you were about 2. So what do you remember from your kind of musical time in Panama from like 0 to 6? Is that long enough to have that musical culture really kind of seep into you?
- [39:08]
Enrique (Making Movies)
Yes, I think, you know, I remember definitely remember afternoons at my grandmother's house and music's just threaded into the culture. The taxi cabs play music at like, that volume that makes speakers sound like they're exploding. And I don't even know how the clubs do the same thing. You know, it's like it's just part of the flavor. Everything's a little crunchy sounding down there. But I also remember loving a song by the Dire Straits. My dad is a our dad is a rock and roll fan. And the song the Walk of Life and Here Comes on the same Day, but I didn't speak English, so I would sing it, but I don't know what I was singing, but it kind of we actually got the name of the band from the Dire Straits because my, my dad had all these records at Home. And one of their albums is called Making Movies, and it's on the same font on the vinyl cover. And since I was kind of listening to it out of time and place, I was like, hey, dad, is this band called Making Movies with an album called Dire Straits? And that's where we got the name of the band. But, yeah, I remember loving that. And that reminds me that music doesn't have to be in the language you speak to communicate to you.
- [40:13]
Luke Burbank
Yeah. Now, this new album, though, is entirely in Spanish. Right. And I think I had read that you said when you write lyrics in Spanish or when you write lyrics in English, it feels like you're sort of two different people. And so to just focus on one thing, you went all Spanish on this one.
- [40:29]
Enrique (Making Movies)
I did. And. And the lyrics for this album, they're the most personal lyrics that we've made, perhaps because part of the album process was done during the pandemic. It was an introspective time, I think, for all of us. But regardless, it just felt like to tell those stories and kind of show that part of ourselves and myself as the lyricist in the band, it felt right to do it all in Spanish this time for the first time.
- [40:55]
Luke Burbank
So much of the talk around your band is the music, but also the activism, what your band really stands for. How do you balance those two things? I mean, do you think of what you're doing as something music first with activism, or vice versa? Or do you feel like you shouldn't have to choose?
- [41:13]
Enrique (Making Movies)
Yeah, I feel like you shouldn't leave anything at the door. Right. So when you walk into a room, you should be your full self, all these parts of your identity. And so I don't think we need to choose, but it's definitely music first. And sometimes people pegged us with political activism because there are things that we believe in that they end up moving into the political space, supporting families and believing in nurturing kids. If kids are from immigrant families or from black families, it's a different conversation. And so that is a political conversation, but that's not where we came from. It's just that we come from immigrant families and black families, so that's just natural for us. So people peg it as political, but what we have done is we started a foundation in Kansas City, a not for profit, that does like music education as a vehicle to talk about mental health and to kind of look at the whole young person and try to empower them. And thank you. And I love that because doesn't have to be political. Then you're just investing in kids and using music to do so.
- [42:20]
Luke Burbank
Yeah. Another thing that people tend to sort of say about your band is that you may have invented a new genre of music. Do you think that's like, is that. Would you agree with that?
- [42:35]
Enrique (Making Movies)
I think we're moving music forward. We're using the same ingredients that made the jambalaya of rock and roll and soul and blues and jazz happen. We're going back to those ingredients, but we have a new recipe, and I think that's what music's all about, is just being a part of the conversation.
- [42:56]
Luke Burbank
You're listening to Livewire. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. We are listening back to a performance from the rock group Making Movies, which we recorded live at Revolution hall in Portland. We've got to take a quick break, but don't go anywhere. When we come back, we will hear a song from them, so stick around for that. Welcome back to Livewire from prx. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. Are you up for a little round of station location identification examination?
- [43:34]
Elena Passarello
I am.
- [43:36]
Luke Burbank
This is where I'm going to tell Elena about a place in the country where Livewire is on the radio. She's got to guess where I am talking about. This city has become notorious for their annual April fool's jokes that city leaders play on their citizens. In 2008, they released a press release announcing that the city was being sold to Canada to boost tourism. Sounds like a really fun.
- [44:00]
Elena Passarello
I guess it's somewhere up on the border. Bellingham, Washington.
- [44:05]
Luke Burbank
I've got another hint. It's on the border with Canada. Well, east of Washington, but not all the way out there. More think middle of the country. The following year, after they announced they were going to sell off to Canada, they began a mock campaign to secure the rights to the 2016 Olympic Games. And apparently somebody had already employed a bucket to drain out Miners Lake. That's south of the town. They were going to build stadium seating there for the 2016 Olympics, which in fact, did not come to this relatively small town in the upper Midwest.
- [44:40]
Elena Passarello
I don't know where this is, but I want to move there.
- [44:43]
Luke Burbank
It has a great name. It's Ely, Minnesota. Ely, Minnesota, where we are on W I R C radio. So shout out to everyone in Ely. Keep working. Maybe you'll get the 2030 Olympics. This is Livewire. All right, before we get to our musical guests this week, a little preview of next week's show. We are going to be joined by Livewire royalty The one and only Paul F. Tompkins. You probably know Paul from his many media appearances. He's on all kinds of podcasts. He's the voice of Mr. Peanut Butter on both Jack Horseman on Netflix. He's got his own traveling show called Varietopia. Now, what you might not know is that Paul has been crowned officially as the guest on Livewire with the most appearances. And so to celebrate, we decided to surprise Paul with a little celebration that went kind of off the rails, to be honest with you. I'm still dealing with the ramifications of this celebration to this very day. So we're going to play that for you. Hopefully, Paul forgives us. Also, we're going to hear some music from another Livewire favorite, our friend Macleet, the singer songwriter who blends jazz, soul, folk, and influences from her East African roots in Ethiopia. We're going to hear some music from macleet. It's going to be a great show next week, so don't miss it. This is Livewire from prx. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. We are listening to a performance from the rock group Making Movies. They joined us live on stage at Revolution hall in Portland, Oregon. Let's check back in with that. Well, what song are we gonna hear?
- [46:29]
Enrique (Making Movies)
The song is called sopa in Panama. They flip que paso. They make it backwards. Oh, yeah. Que so pa, as in like, yo, what's up? Que so pas? And so it's kind of our greeting to the world saying, hey, this is who we are.
- [46:43]
Luke Burbank
All right. This is Making Movies on Livewire.
- [50:24]
Chuck Klosterman
So far. God.
- [51:21]
Luke Burbank
That was Making Movies live on stage at Revolution hall in Portland, Oregon. They brought the house down. Their latest album, sopa, is available now. All right, that's gonna do it for this week's episode of the show. Thank you so much for listening. Also, thanks to our gu, Chuck Klosterman and Making Movies. Livewire is brought to you in part by Alaska Airlines.
- [51:46]
Elena Passarello
Laura Haddon is our executive producer. Heather D. Michel is our executive director. Our producer and editor is Melanie Sevchenko. Our assistant editor is Trey Hester. Our marketing and production manager is Paige Thomas. Our production fellow is Tundi Kumar, and Yasmin Medean is our intern. Our house band was Mike Gamble, Zach Domer, Eyal Alves, and A. Walker Spring, who also composes our music. Molly Pettit is our technical director. And our house sound is by Dee Neal Blake.
- [52:12]
Luke Burbank
Additional funding provided by the Oregon Arts Commission, a state agency funded by the state of Oregon and the National Endowment for the Arts. Livewire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week we'd like to thank members Jane Johnson of Everett, Washington and James Dash of Portland, Oregon. For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast, head on over to livewireradio.org I'm Luke Burbank For Elena Passarello and the whole Livewire crew. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week.
- [52:55]
Elena Passarello
PRX.
- [53:03]
Luke Burbank
Hey, if you appreciate the work that Livewire is doing to amplify riveting and unexpected voices to a national audience, and I gotta tell you, it's a big audience these days, please, please, please consider offering some monthly support by becoming a member of our League of Extraordinary Listeners. Here's how it works. Membership starts at just five bucks a month and there are great perks at every level, including a special shout out on the broadcast. Impress your friends by being shouted out on Livewire. It means the world to us and really does make it possible for us to do the show. So please, if you can help, support us by visiting livewireradio.org memberships.
- [53:50]
Elena Passarello
From PRX.