Damp January: How ‘Bout We Call It a Night? (with Nora McInerny)

Summary

Damp January: How ‘Bout We Call It a Night? (with Nora McInerney) - Live Wire with Luke Burbank

Release Date: January 29, 2025
Host: Luke Burbank
Guest: Nora McInerney
Produced by: PRX

---

Introduction to Damp January

In the fifth and final installment of the Damp January series on Live Wire with Luke Burbank, host Luke Burbank delves deep into the intricate relationship individuals have with alcohol. This special episode aims to provide a conclusive and insightful exploration of alcohol consumption, particularly focusing on finding a balanced approach between total sobriety and excessive drinking.

---

Luke Burbank’s Concerns and Objectives

Luke opens the conversation by expressing his apprehensions about concluding the series. He seeks a "definitive, inspiring, wise ending" that elucidates the optimal stance on alcohol consumption. He candidly shares his viewpoint:

“If we are talking about physical health, it's not even close. None of us should be drinking any alcohol, probably.”
[02:25] – Luke Burbank

Despite this stance, Luke acknowledges the pervasive role of alcohol in social settings and his personal struggles with maintaining a healthy relationship with it. He questions whether a middle path exists—something neither fully abstinent nor entirely indulgent.

---

Introducing Nora McInerney: A Personal Journey with Alcohol and Grief

Nora McInerney, a writer and podcaster, becomes the focal point of this episode. She shares her profound experiences with grief following the tragic loss of her husband, Aaron, to a brain tumor. Nora's approach to coping with loss diverged from turning to excessive alcohol consumption, unlike some societal norms and personal anecdotes Luke references, such as his grandfather’s struggles.

Nora discusses her early encounters with alcohol:

“The first time I drank... I was blacked out on a table dancing... I bust my face open... woke up... my mom standing over me going, what were you drinking? Beer.”
[07:58] – Nora McInerney

Her initial experiences reveal a tumultuous relationship with alcohol, marked by experimentation and unintended consequences. However, Nora gradually steered towards more controlled consumption, especially during challenging times.

---

Navigating Grief Without Escaping into Alcohol

Nora elaborates on how grief often intertwines with alcohol consumption, noting its societal acceptability as a means to numb pain:

“I started drinking after Aaron died... it was easier for me to put my child to bed, go to the basement, turn on Real Housewives of New York, and drink...”
[21:24] – Nora McInerney

Despite these challenges, Nora emphasizes her conscious efforts to manage her drinking. She recounts pivotal moments, such as experiencing a severe acid reflux episode after consuming champagne, which acted as a wake-up call:

“I haven't had a drink since June 30th... I don't really think about it.”
[15:46] – Nora McInerney

This realization prompted Nora to reassess her relationship with alcohol, leading her to label herself as a "non-drinker" rather than striving for complete sobriety.

---

Strategies for a Healthier Relationship with Alcohol

The dialogue between Luke and Nora transitions into practical strategies for moderating alcohol consumption. Nora introduces the concept of a "dopamine menu," inspired by Cheryl Strayed’s approach:

“Make a list of all the things that you like to do. Then, you break it into appetizers, main courses, side dishes, and desserts.”
[36:23] – Nora McInerney

This metaphorical menu helps individuals identify alternative sources of pleasure and fulfillment, reducing reliance on alcohol for dopamine-driven satisfaction.

Additionally, Nora discusses the importance of self-awareness and setting boundaries:

“I don't really think about it... I just say, like, I don't really drink.”
[29:26] – Nora McInerney

By framing occasional drinking as a treat rather than a necessity, individuals can maintain control over their consumption without feeling deprived.

---

Reflection and Conclusion: A Message of Hope

As the episode draws to a close, Luke reflects on the shared stories and the overarching theme of resilience:

“In this brief month that we were doing this show, I have heard some of the most incredible stories from you, the Damp January listeners... you were in places where you just had lost all hope and you figured out how to pull yourself out.”
[39:35] – Luke Burbank

He expresses gratitude towards Nora for her openness and wisdom, underscoring the episode's central message: finding balance and harnessing inner strength to navigate personal struggles with alcohol.

Nora echoes this sentiment, highlighting the significance of self-acceptance and realistic goal-setting in managing alcohol consumption:

“What does this all come down to? Vanity... I don't need any more depressant and I don't need any more anxiety.”
[34:26] – Nora McInerney

The episode concludes with a collective sense of hope and encouragement, urging listeners to seek sustainable paths towards healthier relationships with alcohol.

---

Key Takeaways

• Balanced Approach: Striving for moderation rather than complete abstinence to maintain a healthy relationship with alcohol.
• Self-Awareness: Understanding personal triggers and patterns in alcohol consumption.
• Alternative Dopamine Sources: Identifying fulfilling activities that provide similar satisfaction without relying on alcohol.
• Support Systems: Leveraging friendships, therapy, and community resources to navigate challenges.
• Acceptance and Realism: Embracing one's journey and setting achievable goals for alcohol management.

---

Notable Quotes

• Luke Burbank:
  “None of us should be drinking any alcohol, probably.”
  [02:25]

• Nora McInerney:
  “I don't really think about it... I just say, like, I don't really drink.”
  [29:26]

• Nora McInerney:
  “Alcohol specifically is just like throwing lighter fluid on my anxiety and my depression.”
  [34:26]

---

Final Thoughts: Damp January: How ‘Bout We Call It a Night? serves as a poignant exploration of personal and societal relationships with alcohol. Through candid conversations and heartfelt narratives, Luke Burbank and Nora McInerney offer valuable insights into navigating the complexities of drinking, grief, and self-improvement. This episode not only wraps up the Damp January series but also leaves listeners with actionable strategies and a hopeful outlook towards healthier living.

Transcript

[Lacy Healey]

Hi, it's Lacy Healey. When members of Congress and even the vice President are sworn into office, they say an oath to protect the country from all enemies, foreign and domestic. But what does a domestic enemy look like?

[Luke Burbank]

January 6th was coming from the top.

[Nora McInerney]

Some of them are bad people, but most of them are just normal people.

[Lacy Healey]

It was if we weren't all stressed out enough. This season on Things that Go Boom, we're turning our eyes on the US how violence starts, how it stops, and how we stop it before it starts. A new season of Things that Go Boom is available now. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Luke Burbank]

Livewire is.

[Unknown]

Brought to you by Progressive Insurance Fiscally irresponsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.

[Nora McInerney]

I don't actually need any more depressant and I don't need any more anxiety. And alcohol specifically is just like throwing lighter fluid on my anxiety and my depression.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, here we are, the episode that I have been most worried about, the fifth and final installment of Damp January. From Livewire Radio and prx, I'm your host, Luke Burbank of this special January long limited series wherein I have been talking to all kinds of different people about what their relationships with alcohol look like and maybe if I can learn something from those experiences. I have been kind of dreading this final episode because it really feels like this is the point where I am supposed to land the plane. This is where we need a definitive, inspiring, wise ending that once and for all clarifies exactly what we all should be doing when it comes to alcohol. I will say, if we are talking about physical health, it's not even close. None of us should be drinking any alcohol, probably.

[Unknown]

But also, if you believe like I.

[Luke Burbank]

Do, that we get basically one spin on this planet and there is a thing that is clearly not great for you, but that does, for a certain duration of time, really feel good and really make things feel special and amazing. And to paraphrase Gary Steingart, like really does, tacking a few extra years on the very back end of life, does that pencil out for all of the New Year's Eves and wedding receptions and special moments that inarguably, at least for people like me, with my brain chemistry, moments that are inarguably improved manifestly by the addition of alcohol? I'm just wondering if there is some world that could exist between total sobriety, which continues to elude a lot of people. I would like to mention even people that go to AA and go to rehab. The actual success rate is pretty low, which is why it's so impressive to me when people are able to stay in that lifestyle. But is there something that is slightly north of total abstinence, but then slightly south of a life ruined by alcohol for folks like me? For folks who have the opposite of an effortless relationship with booze? I wish I had one effortless relationship in my life with anything. They're all effortful, including alcohol.

[Unknown]

Like, is there some kind of middle path?

[Luke Burbank]

Possibly. And it just so happens that I know someone who kind of seems to have found that road. And we're going to talk to her today. Her name is Nora McInerney. She is a longtime friend of mine. She's a writer and podcaster. She wrote a book called it's okay to Laugh. Crying's Cool, too, which was about her grief and her experience when her husband, Aaron, died of a brain tumor when they were newly married with a young baby. I mean, it is exactly the kind of thing that when it happens to a person, we as a society, we just kind of go, you know what? We get it. If you want to just drown yourself in booze, like, it is socially acceptable to us that you are grieving in this manner. In fact, that's kind of what happened to my granddad. Jack Kelly of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, mentioned in episode one of this series with my mom, his wife, the love of his life, Flora, the mother of his four young children, went into the hospital for a routine procedure and never came out, and it broke him. He barely came out of the basement after that because of his drinking. That is not, fortunately, what Nora chose to do. She figured out some way to put one foot in front of the other and continue on with her life and get remarried to a wonderful guy and have more kids and really become this incredible resource to thousands and thousands of people, particularly people who are in grief and who are relatively young. And here's the thing. Nora still has the occasional drink. Not many, but it's also not zero. That is the zone that I want to figure out how to effortlessly occupy. So I figured I would ask how Nora got there and how that's going for her.

[Unknown]

How old were you when you had your first drink? And what was the drink?

[Nora McInerney]

I was a senior in high school, so at 17, I had some. I had, like, look, I once told my dead husband, I went to a school where there weren't parties. And he said, oh, really? Maybe you just weren't invited. And I was like, no, I think I would have known if there's. So I went to two parties in high school. One of them, I was a freshman. The cops came. I ran like three miles home with my friends. Like, we thought that the cops had like an APB out for like three 14 year old girls in like sweater vests. And we were just like hoofing it through like alleys, like jumping fences, like, we gotta get outta here. Second one it was. But the first time I drank, okay. Was senior year of high school. It was homecoming. My boyfriend and I had broken up and he went to homecoming with my friend who was on my volleyball team. So I went to homecoming with his friend who was on his football team. And guess what? We all went to Justin's afterwards. And Justin's parents weren't there. And also we didn't know what kind of alcohol to get. And so we had asked like, my friend's older brother to get us like a case of beer. And we just named the first brand we could think of, which was Rolling Rock. And we gave him $50 for a case of beer. I think I had three. I was blacked out on a table dancing to Christina Aguilera's Come on Over. I fell off the table, I busted my face open. I was dropped off in my parents backyard where I woke up the next morning in my friend's little sister's pajamas and my mom standing over me going, what were you drinking? Beer.

[Unknown]

Have a little glass of Latrobe, Pennsylvania's finest export.

[Nora McInerney]

I was like, I don't even know. I think I had beer. And she was like, this is your punishment. How you feel right now is your punishment. And I will say I have a chance. Did you enjoy it somewhere?

[Unknown]

Something kind of. Did you feel like you were unlocking something?

[Nora McInerney]

Like, yeah, I think this was also. This is only maybe a year or so after 10 things I hate about you and what you know. So I'm. I'm my. My prefrontal cortex is soup. Okay? I have. I don't know who I am outside of having a relationship with a boy. I've seen a movie where. How does the main character enamor the boy who was already enamored of him?

[Unknown]

Julia Stiles.

[Nora McInerney]

Julia Stiles, Heath Ledger. She drinks, she gets on a table, she dances. He's like, I will take care of you. They live happily ever after together. I believe they at least go to prom together. So I had that sense of just like, oh, if I drink, then I can be not myself and I can do these crazy things and I. And then I won't be at fault for it. Right? Because, like. Cause I was drunk. And like, truly, that should have been, like, a huge red flag. My parents probably should have had a conversation with me about it, but we were living in the year 2000, so that wasn't going to happen. And I think that scene kind of tells you pretty much everything you need to know about my relationship with alcohol right there.

[Unknown]

Was it sort of like that afterwards for a good while? Like, pretty excessive behavior. Like, what's. What's your kind of young adult and adult life been like with booze?

[Nora McInerney]

I didn't drink again until I went to college. And the first night in college, I remember my. The girls lived across the hall coming over and saying, like, there's a party tonight. And I was already in bed watching Legally Blonde. One of the two DVDs I brought with me. And I said, oh, no. I, like, didn't get an invitation. The other one was Britney Spears. Crossroads. Two DVDs came with me to college. Just the essentials. And I was like, oh, I don't know them. I mean, I wasn't invited personally. I don't know the host. I don't think I can go to the party. And they were like, okay. And then I did go to a party that week, and I was just so uncomfortable and I was so nervous. And I drank a bunch of, like, natural light out of a keg, mostly foam. And a boy walked me back to my dorm and I threw up on his shoes and I never saw him again. And that is. I have always been in my youth, like a either all or nothing kind of person, you know?

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Yeah. I actually had a kind of a similar experience in that I also apparently didn't go to a party. High school or was not invited to the party.

[Nora McInerney]

There were parties. There weren't parties. Like, a lot of high schools, there just are no parties.

[Unknown]

Yes, I went to one of those as well. And so I was. The first time I got anywhere near a beer. I think I was maybe a junior in high school. And I went to Sean Kellogg's house and there was beer there. And I remember drinking the first one and thinking it was one of the worst things I'd ever tasted in my life, which is so unpleasant. But then I thought I would have another one to just double check. And midway through the second one, I was like, this is the greatest thing I've ever tasted. And then I think I had maybe one more and then we were out of beer. And this should have probably indicated for me what would be a lifelong complex relationship with alcohol. Because in that moment I then started thinking, must get more alcohol. And somewhere I found in Sean Kellogg's parents bedroom area a bottle of wine, which Sean and I opened. I then locked myself in their bathroom so that I could have the bottle of wine to myself. Chugged it, threw up off of the deck outside and slept on a twin size hide a bed that was pulled out me and Derek Lilliskar. And woke up the next morning just feeling right as rain and just thought, you know, I think I'm in love. But then interestingly enough, I didn't drink again for years. I didn't drink again until I was 21 on my 21st birthday.

[Nora McInerney]

Wow.

[Unknown]

For a long time that would also be a theme for me, which was, well, if I can have periods of not drinking, that means I don't have a problematic relationship with this thing. Because people that have a problem, they are like getting up in the morning and putting vodka in their orange juice or something. And that's never been me. But I don't think that necessarily means therefore I don't have anything to watch out for with this stuff.

[Nora McInerney]

Right.

[Unknown]

And it also really helped that in college I had a six year old that'll do it. Like I was the guy who had a pack and play in my bedroom in my apartment that I shared with two guys who thank God were tremendous nerds because after I signed the lease with Dan Gaetan and Brian Bishop, that was the point at which I told them, I also have a child who will be here on the weekends. They were fine with it.

[Luke Burbank]

I love them.

[Unknown]

So that kind of kept me.

[Nora McInerney]

Do you still know them?

[Unknown]

I ran into Dan on a flight some number of years ago and I think I said to him, thank you for being cool about that. Because a lot of guys would have been like, absolutely not, we're going to be raging here. But that kind of kept me on the shelf for a number of years, which was probably good for me because then in adulthood I would really sort of make up for lost time. I'm curious, Nora, what is your current relationship with alcohol?

[Nora McInerney]

I just don't ever really think about it, honestly. I had my. The last time I drank was June 30th and I only know that because I thought I was having a heart attack. And I still took my kids on the trip the next morning. We still got on that plane while I was googling like signs of heart attack in women. Heart attack. Am I having one? Bad to get on a plane if you're having a heart attack. How to know if you're gonna die of a heart attack or if it's a small one. Really, I just. And this is, I think more embarrassing than having a heart attack. I think if you have a heart attack, it was an attack, it happened to you. You didn't do anything to deserve it. If you have such bad acid reflux.

[Unknown]

Do you have gert? I have gert.

[Nora McInerney]

I have gerd. It ends with a D. And it's such a gross word. And it's such a gross thing. Just. I got acid just boiling up my throat. Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me, Luke? Like it's the. When the doctor said it, I was like, no, no, no. I came to urgent care to have a heart attack, right?

[Unknown]

I'm not going home with a manual for some sort of prilosec, please.

[Nora McInerney]

I'm not going home with that. And yet that is. That is what I came home with. And I'd had one glass of champagne before.

[Unknown]

Okay, that was gonna be my question. How much had you had the night before? A glass of champagne.

[Nora McInerney]

A glass of champagne. And left the restaurant. And I was like, I'm. I'm going to die. I'm going to die. And so ever since that and even before that, I would have like a drink. So occasionally and always champagne. Cuz that's like a nice. It's something I really enjoy most alcohol I've never enjoyed. My body does not process it very well and never has. I also was such a beer drinker in college and I had no idea that I had celiac all through college. So like, maybe that was part of the vomiting, maybe that was part of the like just like feeling sick all the time. But yeah, I haven't had a drink since June 30th and I just don't really think about it.

[Unknown]

How's that been either? How do you think your experience, like post college in adulthood is a very kind of like easygoing relationship with booze? Or has it been something that you've actually put some thought around?

[Nora McInerney]

So after college I. And through college too, I would have periods where like I just didn't drink at all. Like I didn't drink at all sophomore year. Cause I had an eating disorder and that was like calories. And then I didn't drink for a huge part of junior year or senior year. I just like didn't. I had friends who like, I had two groups of friends. One was, like, girls who partied a lot, and then one was, like, boys who just didn't. And so when I was spending more time with the boys, I just. And when I was spending time with the girls, we were drinking constantly. Right. Like, we'll have a case race. We'll have a. It was like, binge drinking was the only kind of drinking. There was no casual drinking. When I graduated college, I. I worked in, like, vague PR and marketing jobs, and I. I don't know. Like, we drank a lot. Like, that was, like, also a part of, like, the social life was to, like, go out, have, like, three or four to five drinks, smoke a couple cigarettes, and that was, like, dinner. So I. Yeah, I feel like I drank a lot through my, like, 20s. Like, a lot, a lot. Like, that was, like, kind of the nexus of a social scene was, like, going to get drinks.

[Unknown]

Yes. I feel like. And I could be misremembering. I thought that I had remembered you posting somewhere about basically deciding to go sober. Did you ever do that, or.

[Nora McInerney]

I don't know if I ever said it that way. Erin, maybe you and I were just.

[Unknown]

Having a side conversation, and you sort of. Because I'm constantly in and out of some sort of new strategy around my drinking.

[Nora McInerney]

You know, I mean, I.

[Unknown]

And so I key in on when other people say things. You must have said something to me about maybe not drinking, and I took that to mean you were sort of declaring sobriety.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah, I. I didn't drink the whole time. Aaron was sick at all. Aaron couldn't drink. And I was like, okay, I won't drink. And I really also wanted to be conscious for the experience, too, and for.

[Unknown]

The four people on earth who are not familiar with the work of Nora McInerney. This is your late husband?

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah. Yes. My first husband, Aaron, was diagnosed with brain cancer. He was on a pretty intense chemo and radiation schedule. He wasn't supposed to drink. I, like, sucked all the fun out of his life. I was like. And guess what? I read a book. You're gonna be drinking a green juice. No more Taco Bell. Just real dismal, desperate stuff. But I didn't drink, you know, for the duration of his illness either. And then I got blackout wasted at the funeral, which I think is a really sophisticated, lovely way to remember somebody. And, well, I wanted to ask you.

[Unknown]

About that because you're. I want to say. And I'm very happy to see this progression, Nora, because you and I have known each other now for a good while, and you are, I think, early in your career as a public person, you were very well identified with grief. I think You've expanded the McInerney brand, which we love to see. And yet you are still associated in certain ways with grief because of the books that you've written and because of all the amazing programs that you've started for folks. And there's a sort of intersection of grief and, like, drinking. I mean, you know, it's obviously sort of seems like it's a socially acceptable time to get just completely loaded. I remember hearing that a friend of mine had passed away quite suddenly, and this was, I don't know, I'm gonna say a Tuesday night at 8:00, and I literally walked over to the bar in my house at the time, got a bottle of Jameson and just started pouring myself shots. And that's not even my move, but it seemed like maybe I saw it in a movie or something. What about this intersection of grief and. And alcohol?

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah, you saw it in a movie. And I saw it in also my life growing up. You know, like, we had big wakes, big funerals, lot of alcohol. My dad didn't drink when I was growing up. He got sober when my sister was maybe 4 years old and just never drank again. I was told when I was maybe in second grade by my father, you're an alcoholic like me, so you have to be so careful. Cause, like, it'll get you. You can never drink. And I was like, got it. I never. Unless I think it could get a boy to like me or make a social situation easier or. I don't know. I just want to.

[Unknown]

So under those circumstances, you may.

[Nora McInerney]

Under just those circumstances, you may. So I. You know, I don't think people plan like, oh, when my life falls apart, I'm going to, you know, get wasted. But it does feel like a very socially acceptable way to numb your grief or process your grief or express your grief. Right? Like, what is an Irish wake without whiskey?

[Unknown]

Right?

[Nora McInerney]

Like, what is. What is it? So I. I started drinking after Aaron died. I. I don't even remember if it was, like, a conscious decision, but I was definitely drinking too much. I was definitely drinking too much. And I was, you know, young, and I was widowed, and I had a kid and a lot of debt and a lot of uncertainty and a lot of fear and a lot of discomfort and a lot of grief. And it was a lot easier for me to put my child to bed, go to the basement, turn on Real Housewives of New York, and drink a bottle of Skinny Girl Margarita, which I believe Is the serving size laid out by Bethenny Frankel?

[Unknown]

Sure.

[Nora McInerney]

Than it was for me to try to find a therapist. Like, when would I go to therapy? Like, when would I do that or, you know, take care of myself or, like, express myself in any way. The more that I'm talking about this stuff, Luke, the more I'm like, yeah, I guess. Guess you could call it a drinking problem is really something that I have. Like, yeah, I think that's, like. I've always had a problematic relationship with alcohol.

[Unknown]

As you started to find a therapist and kind of maybe climb to some degree a little bit out of that sort of grief hole, did you find your attraction to the skinny girl margarita just kind of waning naturally? Because you were maybe getting a little healthier in other ways, maybe.

[Nora McInerney]

I know that a lot of it was driven by the feeling afterwards, like, waking up in, like, the shame, the wondering, like, hmm, hmm, hmm. And grief is a complicated beast. It is. You know, I had hoped that I would sort of just like, skate through it really quickly and deftly and be really, really good at it and kind of an all star. And it has taken me a long, long time to sort through all of the implications of everything that has, you know, happened. All of that trauma and all of that loss. And I think drinking inhibited that. And I, like, I have a. I have a memory, too, of, like, my youngest was still a baby. I was up north with my friend Mo, who's also a widow. We were up there with our, like, little kids. And something happened that, like, triggered my, like, grief rage, Luke. And it's almost, like, embarrassing to talk about now because it's. So who cares? Someday I will be dead. Nobody will care. But somebody in Minneapolis had, like, released a T shirt design that was, like, very close to my dead husband's last T shirt design, right? Just real fucking close. Real close. Real close. And I was drunk. The kids are in bed. We're drunk, and I'm, like, in it. I'm on Instagram being like, listen here, bitch. You know, like, just, like.

[Unknown]

Just for those listening to this on the podcast.

[Nora McInerney]

Nora. I'm typing with my thumb.

[Unknown]

Nora is mimicking or miming just an absolute. I can feel the rage, the drunken rage radiating off of this Instagram. Comments. You were leaving.

[Nora McInerney]

Mm, mm, mm.

[Unknown]

Did this person ever respond?

[Nora McInerney]

I don't know if they responded. I don't know. I don't know if they responded honestly. I know that I was like, I'm gonna stop drinking, like, the next day. I was like, you're Ready to stop that? Yeah, I was like. I was like, yeah, that's gotta go. You know, like, yeah, I gotta. I gotta stop that. I gotta stop that. And that's honestly probably when we got close, you and me, Luke. Like, that's probably like, right around that same time. Like, the podcast was really new. Cause Q is a baby, baby, you know?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Nora McInerney]

And it's not like I was, like, drinking all the time, but I definitely was just like, oh, yeah, this is not, like, good. This is not how I want to behave. This is not like adding anything to my life. And I literally just was like, okay, I'm done. I'm not gonna do it anymore.

[Unknown]

Wow. I found an email a couple of years ago in a Hotmail account that I. This will timestamp this for you. I don't know what I was doing going back into my Hotmail, but I found an email that I sent while very drunk to a local restaurant proprietor in Seattle who. When I was a kid, this guy had a chain of like maybe five or six restaurants in Seattle. And he hired my dad to do some signs for one of these restaurants. And, you know, I grew up, you know, seven kids, not a lot of money. My dad was, you know, it was very hand to mouth in the old Burbank household. And my dad did this big project for this guy. And then the guy never paid him or any of the contractors on this one particular restaurant because he just had each one set up as its own business entity. So when this restaurant didn't work out, this particular location, he just basically declared bankruptcy or whatever on that particular location.

[Nora McInerney]

Sneaky.

[Unknown]

Continued to have multiple beautiful restaurants around Seattle. The guy clearly had the resources. He stiffed my dad. I believe the number was $7,000, which was, oh, my God, a huge amount of money in those days.

[Nora McInerney]

Oh, I'm not mad at this email. And I don't even care if, like, forward it to me. I'm gonna go after this.

[Unknown]

It's actually borderline criminal. What I wrote in the email. It's very. A lot of threats of physical violence. And this was something I wrote in my 30s. I had hosted my own NPR show in New York City at this point, had sort of crashed and burned on that, had come back to Seattle, was now hosting a nighttime AM radio show and drinking heavily at night because I didn't have to be at work until 5. And I found this email that I wrote to this guy, and it is remarkable that he did not turn it over to the Seattle Police Department. I mean, and granted, he should not have ripped my dad off. But what was in that email? That drunken email timestamp, probably 11:30pm or something. It was really, really kind of shocked. It stopped me in my tracks because you might say things when you're drunk. And now we have so much more technology that's we're recording these things, we're making videos. It's like maybe there's more of a sort of a. Kind of a record, if you will, of what went on. But this was from the days when a lot of times you didn't know what happened. I was probably blacked out and I saw it right there on the Hotmail page and it was brutal. And it really, really, really made me regret that period of my life where I was drinking very, very excessively.

[Nora McInerney]

Do you know what tip do you, like, what inspired you to write that email in your 30s? Like, what got you. Do you just see a commercial for him? Maybe?

[Unknown]

I must have. I probably drove by still existing locations and was triggered or I was literally just in my apartment in Seattle just loaded and going through old grievances, like, on behalf of other people, including my father.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Also, my dad is like the most understated, kind of salt of the earth dude who doesn't have that kind of drunken passion in him.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah. Oh, I'd fight for him.

[Unknown]

And so I have a real kind of like, as a person who sort of has some bad impulse control, I find myself often standing up for the people that I think are maybe not capable of standing up for themselves. And I think that was so good.

[Nora McInerney]

You got a justice button and it got pushed. It doesn't matter if it was a decade late.

[Unknown]

I've heard that that's part of undiagnosed ADHD as well. I have a lot of undiagnosed ADHD theories that are purely created by TikTok. Also, I can chart where I'm at with my alcohol consumption or my thoughts about alcohol consumption by how much sober talk I'm getting. And that's T O K. Like, I just. Some days we'll just get nothing but a stream of sober people on TikTok who are encouraging me that I can really do it. And I'm like, what does the phone know that I don't?

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah, it knows everything.

[Luke Burbank]

It does.

[Unknown]

And it's charging.

[Nora McInerney]

It knows everything. Yeah, it knows everything. It knows everything.

[Unknown]

So would you describe your kind of. If somebody asked you, are you sober? You would. I guess you would say you wouldn't say you were sober because you may have another glass of champagne in Your life. Like, how do you describe yourself?

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah, I just say, like, I don't really drink. Yeah, Yeah, I don't really drink.

[Unknown]

I think I describe myself now as a non drinker. And by that I mean not a sober person, but as a person who drinks very infrequently. And some of that is because it is actually the case. And some of that is me trying to manifest that in my own life.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown]

You know, like making that. So if, you know, if I'm at a party and I'm gonna not drink that day, which is again now kind of most of the time for me, and someone asks, I say non drinker. I kind of put it out there. Ada maybe hold myself a little bit accountable. But also I can't quite bring myself to fully commit to the idea of never drinking alcohol again for the rest of my life. Which also is where the whole one day at a time thing comes from. Right?

[Nora McInerney]

Yes.

[Unknown]

Like, that's the idea behind that, is it's very intimidating to think about entire life of not drinking. It's tolerable to think about an hour of not drinking or an evening of.

[Nora McInerney]

Not drinking, going to one party.

[Unknown]

Right. I still, I. That's something I struggle with. This very, I think, common thing and such a silly thing, which is like, I want to be able to have a glass of wine with my girlfriend if we're in Italy, as we recently were. Like, I don't know why that drives all other behaviors in my life. Having a glass of wine in Italy with my girlfriend, like, I just can't take that off the table for some reason.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah. Because it feels chic.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And it feels like nothing bad can happen when I'm having one glass of wine at dinner in Italy, you know?

[Nora McInerney]

In Italy. Yes. Yes.

[Unknown]

But this idea of just saying to myself, this is something that you can never do again. Even though there's a lot of evidence in my life that says we shouldn't consider taking the glass of wine in Italy off the table if it leaves the door cracked. Maybe best we shut that door. And yet I still have not fully arrived there. I really like something Cheryl Strayed has written about. Have you seen her birthday cake thing?

[Nora McInerney]

No.

[Unknown]

It's pretty genius. I mean, it's a very simple concept, but it makes a lot of sense to me, which is she has written about her drinking. I feel comfortable talking about it because this is something that she's put out in the public. And she was a kind of typical couple glasses of wine a night sort of person. And then she Went to her doctor and she got her labs back and she didn't like how that was. And so she shifted to being essentially what I'm calling a non drinker. She said that for her now it's like cake. It's like birthday cake. It's a treat. She has it once in a while. You don't eat it with every meal. You don't have it three times a day, but you don't. It's not that you never have it, but you just think of it like birthday cake. And for some reason, I think because I have a very healthy relationship with birthday cake, I don't spend any time trying to moderate my birthday cake consumption. I've never been to a meeting in a church basement about birthday cake.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah, lucky.

[Unknown]

I've never been to the other one.

[Nora McInerney]

Okay.

[Unknown]

Yeah. So to think about it as cake is great for me because that's like, I wanna have that. That sounds like that's the relationship you literally have with alcohol. It's just, you don't. It doesn't take up much of your brain space.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah. But it, but honestly, I'm not even trying to be funny, but cake does, you know, Like, I can't have the cake. I will, I will have the entire cake. Like, which is also, you know, I think it's kind of a. I mean, it is, it's a binge disorder for like everything. Right. Like, I'm not gonna have like 4m and Ms. I will have like, you know, the entire share size that has the tear and then the reseal. I'm not resealing that bag. Okay. I'm not resealing it. Everything is a serving size. And I think once I could kind of see that pattern in my life, it was a little easier. I don't have like that same necessarily, like out of control consumption across the board that I did. But I would say that's like, that's kind of like defined. My life is like, you know, binging and starvation, like of. Of all kinds of things. Right. Like if something is good, I'll have all of it. And if something. And then if I decide it's bad, I'll have like none of it, you know?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Nora McInerney]

And that's not particularly healthy either.

[Unknown]

Do you feel like you've got the alcohol thing pretty much figured out? Like, do you have any concerns going forward in your life of it kind of rearing its head again or do you feel like it's completely handled?

[Nora McInerney]

I think it's handled. I don't know. It's like I Don't know if it's just like getting older. I don't know if it's just like really understand like feeling the awareness of like the physicality of it. Because even you know, if I have like that one drink, I was like, okay, that's like, you know, at first I was like, okay, this is kinda kind of good. But like almost immediately I can tell like I'm not gonna sleep. And sleep is really important to me because what does this all come down to? Vanity.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Nora McInerney]

Because I think I will say that one of my motivators is simply vanity is like once you kind of see how people are aging, even if they're just having like you know, a couple drinks a week, it's like, it's the same thing as like tanning to me. I'm like, well I'm not going to do that.

[Unknown]

So having a well rested.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Dewy complected.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah. And I want to just like be. I want to wake up the next day. I don't actually need any more depressant and I don't need any more anxiety. And alcohol specifically is just like throwing lighter fluid on my anxiety and my depression. So a 10 minute, you know, semi euphoria from having like a drink at a party is not really worth it. And I can get that if I am just like having fun, you know what I mean? Like I can get there. But one thing that drove so much of that excessive drinking was just like this deep discomfort with myself and this intense self consciousness and you know, a drink or five, like just removes all that.

[Unknown]

Yeah. I heard somebody say the other day, I've really been trying to keep this in my mind that dopamine is dopamine, you know, like the dopamine that you get or that at least I might feel from having a drink or five, as you said, is the same dopamine I'm getting. If I go hike up to the top of this, I'm looking at a mountain across the Columbia river in Washington State right now. If I were to hike up to the top of that mountain, I'd feel a lot of dopamine. And that's the same chemical in my brain.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

In both cases. And you know, one of it has gotten in a much, much better way. I'm trying to remind myself because I think I tend to, I think I also have sort of like low dopamine. I think I do a lot of sort of dopamine seeking behavior. So if I'm not drinking then I'm thinking, well, what else is fun? What am I doing? What other sort of. What kind of doom scrolling or not even doom scrolling, but just scroll scrolling can I do on like TikTok for hours and hours? Because I'm still trying to find whatever that little thing is that I feel like I kind of need all the time in my life.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah. Have you made a dopamine menu?

[Unknown]

No, I'm listening to this.

[Nora McInerney]

Literally make a list of all the things that you like to do.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Nora McInerney]

Okay. That, like, make you feel good.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Nora McInerney]

Right. Just like. And you just go. And then you break it into, like, appetizers, which are things you can do quickly.

[Unknown]

This is so genius. I love this.

[Nora McInerney]

Then main courses, which are things that like, you know, take a lot of time.

[Unknown]

I'm writing down appetizers in main course. Like, I might forget how meals are named.

[Nora McInerney]

But also. Okay. Then side dishes are things that you can add to a main dish. So it's like if I like cross stitching and watching YouTube videos about, you know, super yachts crashing or disappearing, which I do. And then desserts are the things that, you know, you can't do it all the time. Right? You can't do it all the time. And so the dessert thing might be the glass of wine. The dessert thing might be a cigarette. The dessert thing might be, you know, like, who knows? It might be a 10 minute TikTok scroll. But like, when you are seeking something, you look at your menu like you can design it out and be like, oh, what do I want today? Like, what do I want? And it's like, good to kind of like get detailed too.

[Unknown]

That's a really, really good suggestion. I'm absolutely gonna do that because I think I slip into a mode where I'm not even thinking about what I'm doing and I'm not even thinking about what I actually want. I just have some ineffable, weird hole in me that historically I've filled with alcohol and gambling and then trying to not do that. It's like, well, what else is there? But I don't think about it in this very kind of, very sort of strategic approach way. And this is a really interesting. I think if I stopped and took a moment to think about what I'm doing, I think I might behave sort of differently or it wouldn't be such a struggle. That's the thing. I've managed to actually kind of get into a sort of good place. I was talking to my doctor today. I'd actually talked to him before about alcohol because I decided I'm gonna stop lying to my doctors, I feel like that's just unhealthy.

[Nora McInerney]

So when you say you drink once a week, they're like five times a week. Great, right?

[Unknown]

They're doing the math. So at some point when I first established care with him, I told him honestly that I was drinking what I felt was not a good amount for me. And so he. And for some reason, I think he had my chart and he brought it up this time. He was like, how's it going with that? And I said, well, on paper, it's going fine, but it takes up far too much of my brain every day for it to go fine. I would like to get to the point where it takes up the amount of space that birthday cake takes up for me. That's for me, sort of the journey, I guess, as we sit here recording this episode of this podcast. So. I really appreciate you talking about this stuff, Nora. When we decided we were gonna do this series, you were like the first person that came to mind. Because I know that you are a raging drunk. No, because you are really one of my very favorite people to listen to, talk about any topic. Because you are just so unsparingly genuine about yourself and other people and sort of how and why we do the things we do. So I really, really appreciate you. You coming on the show.

[Nora McInerney]

I love you, buddy.

[Unknown]

Let's try this for our final question. You're at the. You know, you're at the Pearly Gates or something.

[Nora McInerney]

Yes.

[Unknown]

Tomorrow doesn't exist. There is no. They haven't even invented Gerd.

[Nora McInerney]

Yes. Okay.

[Unknown]

You're gonna have. What would you have? Like, your last drink. What would you have?

[Nora McInerney]

Oh, I think I'd have a margarita.

[Unknown]

Oh, salt. No, salt.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah, salt.

[Unknown]

Lambert.

[Nora McInerney]

So much salt. Nope, nope. On the rocks.

[Unknown]

Marg on a skinny Marg or a regular?

[Nora McInerney]

No, a real. A real sugary margarita. Sugary, salty margarita. That's what I would have. And also, if you want a non drink drink, try the recess. Have you had the recess drinks?

[Unknown]

No.

[Nora McInerney]

Okay. They're like. Because they're not, like, sweet. They've got like, a little, like, something to them, but they have like a CBD or like hemp, whatever. But it's not like thc, right? Margarita that tastes really good, like on the rocks.

[Unknown]

I am a big, big na. Beer person now. It's very funny because at the height of my alcohol consumption, I never drank beer. I did not like beer, first of all. It didn't get me where I was going fast enough to be totally honest. But now, in being a person who drinks a lot less. I love nothing more than an athletic brewing. That's so cute. Like dawn. Whatever it's called thing. My fridge is full of them and I'll drink two or three in a night or more. I really, really. I also have some. My girlfriend got me some zero alcohol gin, which is.

[Nora McInerney]

Oh, I've tried that.

[Unknown]

Eerily, yes, eerily convincing. Like, I don't know, some of them are not. Like, I have a non alcohol tequila that is not tricking anyone, not fooling anybody.

[Nora McInerney]

No.

[Unknown]

But the gin, you throw that in with a little tonic and I think you kind of.

[Nora McInerney]

You kind of can't tell. Yeah, you kind of can't tell. So that's a good Christmasy drink. I think I made those at Christmas. Like a non alcoholic gin and tonic with rosemary and like a little bit of. There's something red in it. I don't know what it was, but that's a little.

[Unknown]

That whole thing is sort of controversial in the, like in the fully sober community, of course. Because the question is, do you want to be tricking your kind of reward centers into thinking you're drinking? Do you want that to be associated with fun and pleasure? I still do it. Also, I'm not strictly speaking a sober person, so it is what it is. But yeah, I've actually. The proliferation of the NA products has come at a good time for me because there's a lot of stuff you can. And the other thing I've noticed too is when I'm in a social situation where historically I would have had a lot of alcohol and now I generally don't, it is amazing. There's about five minutes during which it's appealing to me and I'm kind of like, man, I wouldn't mind having whatever what they're having. And then that mood passes and as the night progresses, the R O that I. It's just, it's exponential, it's. The stock is splitting, it's tripling. It's like as by the end of the night, I am so unbelievably glad that I am where I'm at as opposed to where a lot of my friends might be or whomever. And so, you know, I'm learning some strategies and techniques. I'm trying to keep that in mind when I'm, you know, making decisions as I'm holding my NA Athletic brewing beer.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah. Also, like, no one cares. Like people did care when I was young, right. Like in college they'd be, why are you gonna drink, you little bitch? Like, no one cares. As an adult.

[Unknown]

Yes. You know, that's just such a great life lesson for so many things I've really been. Because I have this TV job where it involves, you know, people pointing this camera at me. And I'm a very, very insecure person. And I'll go to a shoot and I'll have like a pimple. By the way, I have both low T and acne at 48, which feels like really unfair. Pick a lane endocrine system. But, like, I'll be really feeling embarrassed about something going on with me physically, or even if I'm doing like Livewire, the radio show on a particular night, you know, with the crowd. And then I remind myself no one is noticing because everyone's thinking about themselves. This is where the incredible self centered sort of nature of being alive in this year. It really helps you and helps me. Nobody cares what I'm drinking or not drinking. Nobody cares what I look like or don't look like, because they're all obsessed about what they're drinking or not drinking and what they look like or don't look like.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah, yeah, nobody cares. Truly, nobody cares.

[Unknown]

A message of hope here on damp January. Nobody cares. So, Nora McInerney, thank you so much for talking to us. I really appreciate it.

[Nora McInerney]

Oh, thank you for having me.

[Luke Burbank]

That is my friend, an incredibly wise person and very occasional drink haver. Nora McInerney live from Phoenix, Arizona. Her podcast and substack, which has just been rebranded in the last couple of weeks, is called thanks for Asking. That used to be called Terrible. Thanks for asking. But, you know, that is. That's a tough lifetime assignment for somebody to like, wake up one day and just realize, oh, okay, I am the Gandalf of grief and I have to lead thousands of hobbits who are in mourning over their trauma to lead them to safety. So Nora and her team are pivoting ever so slightly. And by the way, Nora is so good at lots of things that are outside of the grief space. So I ask you humbly, make sure you go follow Nora and read and listen to all of her stuff. She is truly a national treasure. Speaking of Nicolas Cage films, I gotta admit that a small part of me was hoping that in doing this series, I was going to find, like a secret code or message that would explain to me what I should be doing about this whole drinking thing. But like the Nicolas Cage film snake eyes From 1998, this whole thing is still feeling kind of like a roll of the dice for me. Let me give you a little perspective. When I was trying to figure out how to write this final episode, I very seriously considered doing a couple of shots of tequila just to, like, relax and get flowing. So that probably indicates something about where my mind is at. Now. I will clarify that. I didn't do that. I chose not to do that. So that also indicates maybe something about where my brain is at. What I can say is that in this brief month that we were doing this show, I have heard some of the most incredible stories from you, the damp January listeners, about your lives and how you were in places where you just had lost all hope and you really figured it was kind of over. And then somehow, to everyone's surprise, maybe mostly your own surprise, you figured out how to pull yourself out and you learned that you were so much stronger than you thought you were. And I found those stories so inspiring. And I wonder if someday I will be the person sending that email to, like, a different podcast. I don't know, like the Nicolas Cage character Zok in the animated classic the Ant Bully. I just don't know. Here's what I can say and what I could ask of you. If you see me coming out of a bar, please come up and say hi and ask how I'm doing. I'm not going to feel like you're violating my personal space, but also, if you see me coming out of an AA meeting, I hope you will do the same thing, come up to me and ask me how I'm doing in this exact moment as I'm recording this. I don't know how this story ends for me or really for any of you, but I can say that I feel more hopeful about all of our chances of figuring this out after having had the privilege. And it really has been a privilege of spending this damp January with all of you. So thank you. Damp January is a project of Livewire Radio, written and hosted by me, Luke Burbank. Laura Haddon is our executive producer. Our producer and editor is Melanie Savchenko. Hazik Bin Ahmad Farid and Trey Hester mixed the show. Ashley park is our production fellow, and Benjamin Kleek composed our theme. Also, special thanks to our executive producer, producer at Livewire, Heather D. Michelle and the entire team over at prx. Also, thank you so much for listening to this show and going on this journey with me. Good luck out there, everyone. Hey there, Livewire listeners. Luke Burbank here.

[Unknown]

You know how a lot of people.

[Luke Burbank]

Like ring in the new year with a cheers or a toast. That's pretty common. Well, something kind of special is happening here at Livewire this month, as we have entered 2025, we have launched a brand new limited podcast series. It's called Damp January. Throughout the month, we are going to be going on like a little journey to try to better understand our relationship with alcohol. And by that I mean my relationship with alcohol and also drinking culture at large. Such a big part of our society. And we wanted to find out more about sort of how it's working for people. We're going to talk to friends and family and cultural luminaries who are just at various points on the booze spectrum. By the way, just a practical heads up. You're going to see the Livewire podcast logo change to something new. This is just for the month of January. Do not worry. The regular Livewire episodes that you know and love and crave are still gonna be in your feed every Friday. That's just gonna be alongside a damp January episode that's gonna drop every Wednesday. We have never tried anything like this before, but I think it is a really interesting project. Like, if somebody else made this show, I would listen to it. Okay? But nobody else did. So we're making it and we hope.

[Unknown]

It'S interesting to you.

[Luke Burbank]

It's called Damp January and it's every Wednesday in January.

[Unknown]

From prx.