Dana Schwartz, Jenny Odell, and Black Belt Eagle Scout (REBROADCAST)

Summary

Live Wire with Luke Burbank (PRX) Episode: Dana Schwartz, Jenny Odell, and Black Belt Eagle Scout
Air Date: October 3, 2025 (Rebroadcast, originally recorded May 2023)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Live Wire features lively conversations with writer and podcaster Dana Schwartz (author of Immortality: A Love Story), interdisciplinary artist and author Jenny Odell (author of Saving Time), plus a musical performance from Black Belt Eagle Scout. The episode explores topics such as unconventional roads to creative careers, time beyond the "clock", the peculiarities of royalty, and the healing power of music rooted in Indigenous identity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Celebrating "Good News": Uplifting Stories from Oklahoma

• [04:50–10:17]
  • Elena Passarello shares the story of Rebecca Peterson, 2023's National Teacher of the Year, who inspired teachers through a blog called "One Good Thing".
  • Luke Burbank recounts a feel-good tale of Oklahoma police responding to cries for help that turned out to be from a lonely, vocal goat.

Notable Quotes:

• “She’s got this practice of daily joy that is really making a difference...” – Elena Passarello on Rebecca Peterson [07:08]
• “This goat was really upset ... not being able to hang out with his buddy.” – Luke Burbank [08:50]

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2. Interview: Dana Schwartz on Royalty, YA Novels, and Morbid History

• [11:16–27:33]

About the Books ("Anatomy: A Love Story" and "Immortality: A Love Story")

• Schwartz describes the 19th-century backdrop of her novels, focusing on a young woman, Hazel Sinnett, who wants to be a doctor but faces societal obstacles.

  • “The 19th century was a wild time for medicine and surgery... there was an underground industry of men who would dig up dead bodies...” [11:44]

• Schwartz discusses why she insisted on keeping the visceral “blood and guts” in her YA novel.

  • “Teenagers are weird and gross. When I was a teenager, I ... loved, I was listening to My Chemical Romance all the time.” [15:00]

• Addresses the blurring line between YA and adult literature due to adult readership of YA.

On the Podcast "Noble Blood"

• Schwartz details her process: deep dives into the overlooked and shocking lives of historical royals.

  • “It takes a little bit of time to, you know, read through everything I can and to try to understand it as best I can and then to put it back out into a form that’s hopefully entertaining.” [18:27]

• Discusses society’s continued fascination with monarchy.

  • “It’s weird when random people, through accidents of their birthday throughout history are given control of armies ... and bad things happen a lot of the time.” [19:50] (Opening quote of episode [03:28] is called back here.)

• Notes that most modern monarchs are figureheads, likening their existence to pandas kept in human captivity.

"Palacy or Fallacy" Game: Real or Fake Royal Headlines

• Humorous quiz segment where Schwartz guesses which tabloid headlines about royals are genuine.

  • Luke: “Ed Sheeran mistaken for Prince Harry by the Royal family.”
    Dana: “I hope that one’s made up.”
    Luke: “Absolutely real.” [25:14–25:17]

  • Luke: “The woman who took Prince Harry’s virginity... is auctioning the Miss Piggy toy he gave her for charity.”
    Dana: “Okay, I'm gonna say made up.”
    Luke: “That's absolutely real.” [26:47–26:51]

  • Schwartz expresses sympathy for royals subjected to public scrutiny:
    “He never should have been a prince. He should have, like, owned a surf shop...” [26:58]

On Writing for TV

• Schwartz discusses working on "She-Hulk: Attorney at Law," noting the mental shift between historical novels and contemporary superhero narratives:
  • “In the morning I'll be writing a novel or a TV show, and then in the afternoon, I'm reading these letters from the 1700s from the horniest people you've ever met.” [23:40]

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3. Listener Responses: "Favorite Ways to Waste Time"

• [29:11–31:18]
  • The show gathers quirky responses to the question of how listeners "waste" time.
  • Examples include window shopping expensive real estate, writing songs for cats, and borrowing—but not reading—library books.

Notable Quotes:

• “I just wrote a new one this week that I think is really gonna top the charts. My cat's named Bubbles, and I pick her up and I sing a song called ‘Bubbles Baby’ to the tune of the Muppet Babies theme.” – Luke Burbank [29:52]

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4. Interview: Jenny Odell on Rethinking Time

• [31:59–41:08]

Motivation for Writing "Saving Time"

• Odell wrote the book before the pandemic to address her own “pained” relationship with time—anxiety about scarcity and the future.
  • “I was just noticing that all of my thoughts about time felt very pained or painful, like time was either running out... I didn't have enough of it.” [32:11]

Learning from Moss: Different "Languages" of Time

• Inspired by the non-linear, adaptable nature of moss and its rhythms.

  • “Moss can go dormant... and then come back in the presence of water, that’s just a notion of time that feels more stretchy and less linear...” [33:44]

• Odell explores concepts beyond “time is money,” introducing ecological time, geological time, communal time, and “crip time” from disability studies.

  • “That’s one language about time of many... Ecological time, geological time, communal time, crip time...” [34:12]

Time in American Culture

• Contrasts U.S. attitudes (e.g., "Protestant work ethic", individualism) with other cultures' collective or leisurely approaches to time.
  • “I have 24 hours, just like everyone else... my job is to run them through my sort of success factory more and more efficiently...” [36:36]

Obama’s Reading List

• Odell relates how she learned her prior book was recommended by Barack Obama via her boyfriend seeing it on Twitter—no personal call.
  • “My boyfriend and I were on our way to a movie and I just heard him in the next room say, like, I think he said, ‘Have some weird news’ because he had seen it on Twitter.” [37:36]

The Capitalist Clock

• Odell critiques the “productivity bros” culture and the notion that time scarcity = personal failing.

  • “I talk about productivity bros, which is my term for like a person who makes a certain type of content online about, like, crushing your morning and like making a smoothie at 3am or whatever.” [39:23 (also previously at 03:42)]

• Emphasizes collective action over self-blame for lack of time.

• Asserts that “capitalism remains the problem” regarding the commodification of time.

  • “The first chapter is about the history of that concept of time is money. And you find out that time is money—the time in that equation is other people's labor time.” [40:25]

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5. Music: Black Belt Eagle Scout

• [44:45–52:34]

Interview with Katherine Paul (Black Belt Eagle Scout)

• Paul details her musical upbringing on the Swinomish reservation, influenced by both cultural singing and the 1990s Pacific Northwest DIY music scene.
  • “Middle school, high school, I was like, everyday people do music. I could do music too.” [44:56]
• Discusses crafting the atmospheric sound of her album The Land, the Water, the Sky with influences from wilderness and Riot Grrrl.
• Attests to the personal and cultural healing that comes from returning to her ancestral home during the pandemic, which shaped the album.
  • “There was a lot more space to walk around and feel...connected to where I’m from. And that was really helpful in the writing process of the record.” [46:50]

Musical Performance:
Plays "Don’t Give Up"—a dreamy, guitar-laden song described by host Luke as “really dreamy, but it also has a lot of really great rockin’ guitar.”
[47:25–52:34]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It’s weird when random people, through accidents of their birthday throughout history are given control of armies. That’s a weird thing. And bad things happen a lot of the time.” – Dana Schwartz [03:28, 19:50]
• “I think ... like, that sort of notion of control remains, like in the way time is talked about. When you say time is money." – Jenny Odell [41:03]
• “I mean, for me ... I always knew I was going to move back home. ... That was really helpful in the writing process of the record.” – Black Belt Eagle Scout [46:50]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 04:50 — Best News All Week: Teacher of the Year & the Lonely Goat
• 11:16 — Dana Schwartz interview begins
• 24:53 — Palacy or Fallacy (Real or Fake Royal Headlines)
• 29:11 — Listeners’ Favorite Ways to Waste Time
• 31:59 — Jenny Odell interview begins
• 39:23 — Odell on "productivity bros" / Blame for time scarcity
• 44:45 — Black Belt Eagle Scout interview
• 47:25 — Black Belt Eagle Scout performance: “Don’t Give Up”

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Overall Tone & Style

The hosts, guests, and house band create an easygoing, humorous, intellectually curious vibe that combines deep dives on nerdy topics with playful games and heartfelt musical performance. Authentic interview moments and witty banter keep the show energetic and relatable for a broad audience.

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Summary

• The episode is a blend of book talk, historical oddities, philosophical musings on time and productivity, lighthearted quizzes, and evocative indie music—all woven together in a smart, upbeat style.
• Key threads include reclaiming meaning in how we spend our time, the enduring weirdness and allure of royalty, and the power of music grounded in identity and place.

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For more, visit livewireradio.org or check out the podcast via your favorite app.

Transcript

[Luke Burbank]

Hey there. Welcome to Livewire. I'm your host, Luke Burbank. This week on the show, we are talking to writer and podcaster Dana Schwartz about her new book, A Love Story. It's a young adult book that's got everything, history, romance, tons of blood. Then we will chat with the artist and writer Jenny o' Dell about her latest book, saving Time, Discovering a Life beyond the Clock. The Washington Post, in reviewing the book, was apparently not that concerned about our time. They said it was an ambitious project that takes on time management, self help, climate, nihilism, our fear of dying and the grind of corporate life, comma, ultimately asking us to see time itself through different lenses. And then we are going to make sure we still have time for some music from Black Belt Eagle Scout, whose latest album is the Land, the Water, the Sky. That's all starting just after this news. Stick around. Hello, this is Jack Wilson, the host of the History of Literature podcast. For the past 10 years, I've been talking to novelists, biographers and scholars about the greatest books in the history of the world and the men and women who wrote them. Like our recent episodes on Dante in Love, a starter pack of 10 Indian classics, the pop culture that influenced Sylvia Plath, and a talk with scientist and novelist Alan Lightman about the wonders of nature. Join us at the History of Literature podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

This show is supported by Odoo. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out odoo-o o.com that's o d o o.com Today's episode is sponsored by Strawberry Me. Let's be honest. Are you happy with your job? Like, really happy? The unfortunate fact is that a huge number of people can't say yes to that. Far too many of us are stuck in a job we've outgrown or one we never wanted in the first place. But still, we stick it out. And we give reasons, like what if the next move is even worse? Or I've already put years into this place and maybe the most common one. Isn't everyone kind of miserable at work? But there's a difference between reasons for staying and excuses for not leaving. It's time to get unstuck it's time for Strawberry Emmy. They match you with a certified career coach who helps you go from where you are to where you actually want to be. Your coach helps you get clear on your goals, create a plan, build your confidence, and keeps you accountable along the way. So don't leave your career to chance. Take action and own your future. With a professional coach in your corner, go to Strawberry Me Future to claim a special offer. That's Strawberry Me Future.

[Luke Burbank]

This episode of Livewire was originally recorded in May of 2023. We hope you like it.

[Elena Passarello]

Now let's get to the show from prx.

[Livewire Promo Voice]

It's Livewire.

[Elena Passarello]

This week. Author and podcaster Dana Schwartz.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's weird when random people through accidents of their birthday throughout history are given control of armies. That's a weird thing. And bad things happen a lot of the time.

[Elena Passarello]

And artist and writer Jenny o'.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

Dell.

[Jenny Odell]

I talk about productivity bros, which is my term for like a person who makes a certain type of content online about, like crushing your morning and like making a smoothie at 3am or whatever.

[Elena Passarello]

With music from Black Belt Eagle Scout and our fabulous house band. I'm your announcer, Elena Passarello.

[Dana Schwartz]

And now the host of Livewire, Luke Burbank.

[Luke Burbank]

Hey, thank you so much, Elaina Passarello. Thanks to everyone tuning in all over the country. We have a jam packed show for you this week. Of course, we've asked the Livewire listeners a question in honor of the topic that Jenny o' Dell writes about. We've asked the listeners, what is your favorite way to waste time? We're putting that in air quotes, the waste part. But what is something that you like to do that other people might not see the inherent value in? We're going to hear those answers coming up in a few minutes. First, though, we've got to kick things off with the best news we heard all week. This is our little reminder that there is good news happening out there in the world. Sometimes you just got to look for it. Alaina, what's the best news you heard all week?

[Elena Passarello]

Well, I don't know if you know this, Burbank, but it is Teacher Appreciation Month.

[Luke Burbank]

Are you just bringing this up because you are yourself a college professor?

[Elena Passarello]

I don't think college professors count in Teacher Appreciation Month. I think it's just K through 12. But in my heart, it's Teacher Appreciation Month every month. And they have just announced the 2023 Teacher of the Year. This is for the whole America, Teacher of the Year. And it's a math teacher, a high school math teacher from Tulsa, Oklahoma, named Rebecca Peterson, and she's been teaching for over a decade. She actually started teaching college and then kind of decided to go the high school route. And when she did, it was really tough. You know, the first year teaching K through 12 is really difficult, really grinding huge class sizes. She's a public school teacher and 10 years ago, when Rebecca Peterson was just getting started, she found solace in this collaborative blog project called One Good Thing. And it was where teachers from all over the planet, just every day, they would just log in and they would say one good thing that happened to them amidst all of the challenges of a busy teaching day. And she says it saved her career. Flash forward 10 years later, not only has she posted to the site 1400 times, but when she became the Oklahoma Teacher of the year in 2022, which is the thing that qualifies her for the national title, she was given a year long sabbatical to work on a passion project. And she brought this One Good Thing project to all of these te all around the state via the blog, via Instagram posts. And she was really just telling the positive stories of all of these different teachers. Even in her math classes where you wouldn't think that there would be a lot of writing, she's asked the students to write about one good thing that happens to them in handwritten journals. So she's being recognized as the top teacher in our nation or the most honored teacher of our nation this year. Not just because she has this incredible passion for teaching algebra, AP calculus. Eleven of her former students are already math teachers. So she's inspiring the next generation of math teachers, but also because she's got this practice of daily joy that is really making a difference in the lives not just of her students and not just of her professionally, but other teachers that are doing the same incredible job that she's doing. And I just really honestly, the best news I heard this week was just thinking about that legacy that she's leaving and that great work that she's doing that is awesome.

[Luke Burbank]

Now, you know, the best news that I saw this week also takes us to Oklahoma.

[Elena Passarello]

You're kidding.

[Luke Burbank]

It's a real Sooner State kind of situation. And the best news this week, I heard about this thing that happened in Enid, Oklahoma. It's like kind of a lazy Monday recently. And a resident of the sort of northwest part of Enid, Oklahoma, she's sitting on her porch and she's reading a book and she starts hearing cries for help. And it's very piercing and very kind of troubling to the point where she calls the police. And there are these two police officers with the Enid PD who report Neil Storey and David Sneed are sent out on this call of these mysterious cries for help. This is all, by the way, recorded on their body cams. And so they show up on the general area where the screaming has been reported and they're jogging down this dirt road and the screams are getting louder, the screams for help. And they're really bracing themselves because, you know, you never know how one of these calls is going to turn out. And they round a corner and what they see is a farmer standing next to his goat who's screaming for help because the goat's best friend has been shacked up in this other barn with the only female goat at the farm. Oh, for the last hour.

[Elena Passarello]

So it's a love scream.

[Luke Burbank]

It's not because the goat apparently was upset that he wasn't getting to be on the date with the female goat. He was bummed that his homie was in there. He was more sad about not being able to hang out with his buddy. This is, as the farmer explained it to the police officers, these are Nubian goats. And Nubian goats are prized for their dairy production. I have to be honest with you, I'm such a city slicker. Until I read this article, it didn't occur to me that goat's milk needed to come from a goat's body. When I saw like dairy production, I don't know where I thought it came from.

[Elena Passarello]

Did you think it was just milk that goats preferred?

[Luke Burbank]

I just hadn't given it any concentration in my life. Like when I was like, these Nubian goats are prized for their dairy output, I was like, I guess that's where goat's milk comes from. But they also are very vocal and they're also very herd oriented as very social with each other. And so this goat and his buddy would hang out all the time and then his buddy went into the barn to go on his hot date and they were separated and this goat was like really upset about the whole situation.

[Elena Passarello]

I've heard those certain goats, when they scream, they sound exactly like humans.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, that's where the whole Taylor Swift, right there was the Taylor Swift meme of the song Trouble where somebody intercut it with a goat bleating.

[Elena Passarello]

That's right.

[Luke Burbank]

It was pretty spot on. So the farmer said that the goat is going to be fine. He gave the goat some extra food. It calmed the goat down.

[Jenny Odell]

Oh, good.

[Luke Burbank]

Everything is a okay. In Enid, Oklahoma this week. Which is for me, the best news that I heard all week. All right, let's welcome our first guest on over to the the program. She's a TV writer and the creator of the hit podcast Noble Blood, which investigates the juicy history of lesser known royals. She's also published five books, including the White Man's Guide to White Male Writers of the Western Canon and Anatomy A Love Story, which was a huge hit. And she's following it up with the highly anticipated sequel, A Love Story. This is our chat with Dana Schwartz, recorded at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland. Hello. Hello, Dana. Welcome to the program.

[Dana Schwartz]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Luke Burbank]

All right, let's talk about immortality and also anatomy and I just mean as general topic.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, no, easy. I've mastered them both.

[Luke Burbank]

Okay, good. No, those are the names of. Did I say it's called a duology?

[Dana Schwartz]

A duology is what the kids call it.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, yeah. What kids? So it's like these books are. It's Hazel Sennett. Hazel Sinnett is kind of the main character.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

What's sort of her story? What is she doing in the book? Starting with anatomy.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. So the 19th century was a wild time for medicine and surgery. If you didn't know, it was very gross. And people weren't donating bodies to science because that didn't exist. And so there was an underground industry of men who would dig up dead bodies and sell them to doctors to dissect. This is a real thing that happened. And Anatomy A Love Story is a story about a young woman named Hazel who dreams of being a doctor. And because she can't study surgery, she forms this unlikely partnership with a resurrection men. And then, you know, conflicts ensue.

[Luke Burbank]

Now these days, if you told your parents, I want to be a surgeon, they would be very excited.

[Jenny Odell]

Yes.

[Luke Burbank]

Be very proud. That was not the case in those days. Right. For surgeons in general, they weren't regarded the same.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. So this was sort of the era of barber surgeons. Surgeons were sort of. It was considered a very physical job because the technology didn't exist for finesse. This was breaking bones and cutting things open. So surgery was not considered a very intellectual field and it was not considered a very ladylike field. What's kind of interesting is I was actually pre med in college and so I had to do the thing of telling my Jewish parents that I didn't want to be a doctor and that instead I was going to move to New York and try to make it as a writer.

[Luke Burbank]

I was wondering if I had noted that on your bio that you started out pre med but just medicine in general. Is that something that you carry around as an interest even though you didn't end up pursuing it as your profession?

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, I think it was just something I always kind of loved. I'm not really grossed out very easily and I find history very fascinating. I find medical history fascinating. And so the great thing about writing a book is is you get to choose what to put in it. And no one stops you if you want to put the thing that you're the most interested in in your book. So you get to research it for six months. It's great. That makes me think of a question.

[Elena Passarello]

That I had when I was devouring this book. I don't read a lot of YA novels and this is visceral, deliciously visceral.

[Jenny Odell]

Thank you.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Elena Passarello]

Is this an unusual thing to have this level of exciting gross blood I guts or is it? Yeah, actually we kind of like this dark.

[Dana Schwartz]

You know, that is a great question because when I started writing Anatomy, I didn't think it was either a young adult or an adult novel. The character is 17 because that was the age that a young woman would be at this point in her life when she has to make these decisions about what is my life going to look like. And it was sort of a decision that I made with my agents, you know, after I had already developed the book where it was like, okay, well, it's a coming of age story. It's a young woman figuring herself out. Young adult readers are so passionate. This might appeal to younger people too. And fortunately we now live in a culture where adults read YA and it's not a clear line. So it was sort of a post development decision to market it as ya. And the first conversation I had when I sold the book and was talking to an editor at a young adult publishing house, I was like, but you can't take out the blood, please. I just, I want it in there. Teenagers are weird and gross. When I was a teenager, I loved, I was listening to My Chemical Romance all the time and she was like, no, absolutely, we're keeping it in. So thank you, Wednesday books.

[Luke Burbank]

I found the books very readable and also did still have to look a few things up. I consider it to be just a adult. What it turns out is the young people of the world are actually very smart and read at a higher level than I do is what it comes.

[Dana Schwartz]

Down to, you know, young adult novels is young women. And our culture loves to say that things that young women love is frivolous or unimportant and young women have really good taste. Yeah, yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

These books are extremely popular. We've got to take a real quick break here, but when we come back, Dana, I want to talk a little bit about this Noble Blood podcast that you host that is also really fascinating. We are talking to Dana Schwartz. Her newest book is Immortality A Love Story. This is Livewire radio from prx. Stay with us. Back in a moment. Welcome back to LIVEWIRE from prx. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. We are at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon this week. Look at these wonderful people. We are talking to Dana Schwartz about her new book, A Love Story and also your podcast, Noble Blood, which I will say I've only been recently acquainted with and I am loving it. It's a sort of history podcast about nobility and nobles over time. Is this something that you were always interested in? Were you into like kings and queens and duchesses?

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. I mean, I think from a very young age, children are primed on like Disney movies and fairy tales to just be fascinated by kings and queens and princesses. And then I was the type of young adult that did love ghost stories and slightly gory history and there is plenty of in royal history. So it was just something that I was always genuinely fascinated by and boring my friends and family about constantly. And so I consider a podcast where I talk into a microphone, sort of a public service for those around me because I'm not describing gruesome deaths over dinner to my husband.

[Luke Burbank]

I was telling you this backstage, but one of the things I think that I was kind of surprised by was the tone of the show because we live in a day and age where there are a thousand podcasts being created every hour. That's a real fact. I looked that up earlier.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yep.

[Luke Burbank]

And what I've noticed is that so many of those shows are people. They're chat shows. They're people. And you're a funny person. I followed you on social media for years and I sort of thought, okay, Dana Schwartz is doing a show about nobles. It's just going to be her and her like two funny comedian friends roasting, you know, like the monarchy or something. And no, it's very historical. It's very serious and it's very informative. What is the research process for putting one of these episodes together?

[Dana Schwartz]

It is a very in depth research process, but I sort of love it. I feel like a detective. I love finding you would be so surprised by how many sources repeat wrong information, like casual sources like Internet websites you know, like pop news websites, but once you go back to the original sources, you just feel like such a detective. So I, I mean, it's a, it's a fully researched scripted podcast because these are all subjects that I'm fascinated in. So it's like you find an individual character, like in immortality. I wove in a few of the figures I've researched, like the mad King George iii, his son who became George iv, and George's granddaughter, Princess Charlotte. And these are figures who are sort of forgotten in pop culture. I mean, we know like maybe a sentence about each one at large, but once you dig into these stories, it's like the juiciest gossip you've ever heard. It's unbelievable. And so I, it, it takes a little bit of time to, you know, read through everything I can and to try to understand it as best I can and then to put it back out into a form that's hopefully entertaining.

[Luke Burbank]

Do you think we should get rid of the monarchy and like nobility? It's such a. Seems like such a anachronistic, hurtful and totally made up BS thing.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, I mean, it's sort of weird. I mean, people, sometimes people think I'm a monarchist because I have a podcast talking about historical monarchy. Mostly it's just because I find it very interesting. And it's weird when random people, through accidents of their birthday throughout history are given control of armies. That's a weird thing. And bad things happen a lot of the time. So as someone who loves researching in the history, it's just, it's fascinating. I don't know if we should have a monitor. I'm glad I'm not in charge of that decision. I think now it's sort of a mascot. You know, they're selling like plates. I don't think they should be making decisions. If they did put me in charge and they asked me what they should do and I've gone on the record for saying this, I think they should skip Charles, skip William and go straight to the little baby. Go straight to George with the little pink cheeks and he wears shorts.

[Elena Passarello]

He's darling.

[Dana Schwartz]

Everyone who would be against the monarchy if it was just a little blonde baby with rosy cheeks.

[Luke Burbank]

You mean current age? Go to the current age child. Not wait for him to grow up. Make a four year old five.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, make him the king. Put him on, put him on plates. People would love it. I would love it. I mean, it's kind of. There's an amazing author, Hilary Mantel, who's written a brilliant essay on the monarchy that will say all of this much more articulately than I have. But she looks at monarchy and asks, asking if we should have the monarchy is like saying, should we have pandas? She's saying, we're keeping these human beings in captivity. Maybe it's not even ethical for them.

[Luke Burbank]

Right. Well, speaking of the ones that escape captivity, one of the episodes of the podcast addressed, basically, it was the very. He was the very short term king. King George.

[Dana Schwartz]

No, Prince Edward viii.

[Luke Burbank]

Prince Edward viii. Sorry, sorry.

[Dana Schwartz]

I was like, oh, my God, this is. I'm getting flashbacks of high school.

[Luke Burbank]

I have a hard time keeping all these Anglo names straight.

[Dana Schwartz]

There are a lot of Edward viii.

[Luke Burbank]

He was the one that married Wallis Simpson, the American who was a divorcee. Right.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

And you have this episode of the podcast where talks about him going and kicking it with Hitler.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

And you mentioned on the show, and I think this might be citing some other sources too, that Hitler was on the record as saying if he had actually stayed king in England, that Hitler thinks that he would have prevailed in the war.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. I mean, Hitler said a lot of wrong things.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, really?

[Dana Schwartz]

Wow. But you never know.

[Luke Burbank]

You heard it here first, the praise.

[Dana Schwartz]

I didn't know the hot takes would be coming out. Yeah. But it is wild. I mean, looking at all of this history that, you know, that's the wild thing about monarchy and why I love my podcast Noble Blood, and why I truly will never run out of episodes. Because at the end of the day, these are human beings in positions of enormous pressure and power, and they're just people. They're jealous, they're insecure, they're stupid. Sometimes, a lot of the time, they fall in love with bad people. They just act like rich people who have never had a job, and now they're in charge of everything, genuinely. And that's. Isn't that just interesting? It's just weird.

[Luke Burbank]

It is.

[Elena Passarello]

Shakespeare. Thought so.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

We're talking to Dana Schwartz about her podcast Noble Blood, and also her latest book is Immortality A Love Story. When you're not podcasting about nobility or writing about, like, Scottish body snatchers. You also write television set in this era or at some era known as the Marvel Cinematic Universe. You wrote for she Hulk, attorney at law.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

Is it hard. Is it hard to, like, switch your brain from, like, Edinburgh of a certain era to, like, modern day she Hulk lawyering?

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, I think I definitely read a lot of comic books in that time just to get in the rhythm and the mode. But, yeah, I do sort of get that strange Thing where I do divide my days, where it's like in the morning I'll be writing a novel or writing a TV show, and then in the afternoon, I'm reading These letters from 1700s from the horniest people you've ever met.

[Luke Burbank]

This is Livewire. We're talking to writer and podcaster. We call that in the business. We call that a reset. We're talking to Dana Schwartz. Okay, Dana, as we have been discussing, you are very familiar with some more obscure sort of lesser known nobility and royals throughout history, but we were also wondering how up to speed you are on the sort of current crop of royals, the obscenely famous ones that we have here in the modern day. So we want to do a little exercise here. We wanted to read you a headline about the royal family and we'd like you to tell us if you think this is something that was actually ripped from the headlines or is it something we made up. We're calling this game Palacy or Fallacy.

[Jenny Odell]

Oh.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. All right. This is a headline. Tell me, Adana, if it's a palacy or a fallacy. Ed Sheeran mistaken for Prince Harry by the Royal family.

[Dana Schwartz]

I hope that one's made up.

[Luke Burbank]

Absolutely real.

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh, my God.

[Luke Burbank]

From the website of the UK's number one hit music station, Capital. How about headline, palace or fallacy? Do letters prove member of the Royal family was Jack the Ripper?

[Dana Schwartz]

That one's true.

[Luke Burbank]

Absolutely real. From the Mirror in 2016. Do you know about that? Has that been part of your research?

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, it's. If anyone's read From Hell, which is an amazing graphic novel that explores sort of this theory that it was Queen Victoria's son who was Jack the Ripper. But, I mean, that's fun to think.

[Luke Burbank]

It's funny how disappointed you are that he's not from the Royal family. You're like, spoiler alert. He's not.

[Dana Schwartz]

He's not. Wouldn't. How interesting would that be, though? Wouldn't that be amazing?

[Luke Burbank]

Just the managing your schedule, it seems, being like in the royal family and then also doing all that killing.

[Dana Schwartz]

You would be surprised. Being the son, like not being in charge. It's a lot of waiting around.

[Luke Burbank]

You phone it in of the time. Yeah. How about this? Palacy or Fallacy? Prince William hints at jealousy over Harry's friendship with Tyler Perry. Claims to be quote, big fan.

[Dana Schwartz]

Is that real?

[Luke Burbank]

We made that one up.

[Dana Schwartz]

I would like to believe Prince William's a big fan of Tyler Perry.

[Luke Burbank]

All right, real or made up? The woman who took Prince Harry's virginity in a field as a teenager is auctioning the Miss Piggy toy that he gave her for charity.

[Dana Schwartz]

Okay, I'm gonna say made up.

[Luke Burbank]

That's absolutely real.

[Dana Schwartz]

No.

[Livewire Promo Voice]

No.

[Luke Burbank]

And that's recent. That's from the Sun, February 26th.

[Dana Schwartz]

This is that panda thing where you're like, these poor people. He shouldn't have to. He should just be like, he never should have been a prince. He should have, like, owned a surf shop. Always. Like, this isn't the life he should ever have.

[Luke Burbank]

How about this one? Camilla Parker Bowles. Can't stop talking about Joe Biden's long fart.

[Dana Schwartz]

That one's true.

[Luke Burbank]

Absolutely real.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

New York Post, 2021. Wow, Dana Schwartz, you really know your policy or fallacy.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, maybe I need to read less. Daily Mail.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, thank you for coming on the show. Congrats on the book and the podcast. Dana Schwartz, everyone. That was Dana Schwartz right here on Livewire. Her new book, A Love Story, is available now. And you can listen to her hit podcast, Noble Blood, wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, special thanks this week to Karen and Brian McManus of Seattle Wire, Washington. Karen and Brian are part of the Livewire member community. They are in the League of Extraordinary Listeners, and they are generously supporting our show with a donation each month. And we are very, very thankful for that because it is how we're able to keep doing livewire 52 times a year. Thanks, Karen and Brian, for keeping Livewire going. Livewire is brought to you by Powell's Books. A Portland institution since 1971, Powell's offers a selection of new and used books in stores and online@powell's.com this is Livewire. Each week on the show, we ask our listeners a great question. This week because we're talking about time with Jenny o'. Dell. We asked our listeners, what is your favorite way to, quote, unquote, waste time? Elena has been collecting up those responses. What are you seeing?

[Elena Passarello]

This one's from Ellen. Ellen loves to look at house listings in cities I could never afford to live in.

[Luke Burbank]

I so identify with that, I can't even tell you because I tend to travel a lot for my various media jobs. And when I drop into a city, I've got that Redfin app out like it's my version of Tinder. I'm just like, what's happening here in Fort Worth, Texas? How much could we get for a couple of hundred thousand, Right? What's another time waster that one of our listeners enjoys?

[Elena Passarello]

Here's a great one from Amanda. Amanda loves singing Songs about my cats to my cats. Because really, if you write a song about your cat, no one else wants to hear it.

[Luke Burbank]

I just wrote a new one this week that I think is really gonna top the charts. My cat's named Bubbles, and I pick her up and I sing a song called Bubbles Baby, but it's to the tune of the Muppet Babies theme.

[Elena Passarello]

Bubbles, baby, we make our dreams come true.

[Luke Burbank]

I mean, that's about the extent of the song. It's just Bubbles, Babies, we make our dreams come true. But it seems to be working out pretty well around here.

[Elena Passarello]

Does she like it?

[Luke Burbank]

She doesn't like it because I'm also holding her in my arms like a baby while I do it, which is very disorienting for her.

[Elena Passarello]

They don't like that. No, but I'm.

[Luke Burbank]

I'm. I'm hoping that, you know, in year two of us living together, we can have a breakthrough, that I'm allowed to rock her like a baby for at least 20 minutes a day. All right, one more time waster that one of our listeners loves.

[Elena Passarello]

Ron loves to waste time by not reading all of the books that he keeps borrowing from the library. Guilty. When I go to the library because it's free and because it's books I like, it's like the Super Toy run, and I come home with, like, a bedside table's worth of books in that I could stack them to be the bedside table, and then I just wait for them to be overdue, and I just schlep them back to the library.

[Luke Burbank]

But, see, my problem with Ron's premise is that if Ron doesn't finish the book, then there was nothing of value that happened. I mean, what about the 80 pages that Ron did read? I mean, that was something.

[Elena Passarello]

I don't even open mine. I guess that was. I was. That's what I was. Mine. Not finishing is not reading at all.

[Luke Burbank]

All right, thanks to everyone who sent in a response to our listener question. Speaking of time, our next guest is a writer and artist. Her first book, how to do Resisting the Attention Economy, became a New York Times bestseller and was named one of the best books of the year by Time, npr, and others. The New York Times calls her latest book Saving Time, Discovering a Life beyond the Clock Paradigm Destroying. Take a listen to this. It's our conversation with Jenny o' Dell recorded at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland here on Livewire. Jenny, welcome to the show.

[Jenny Odell]

Hi. Thanks so much for having me.

[Luke Burbank]

I heard you say that you wrote this book because you needed it or you needed to what was going on for you that you needed to write this book?

[Jenny Odell]

So, amazingly, this was before the pandemic. I was just noticing that all of my thoughts about time felt very pained or painful, like time was either running out, I didn't have enough of it. I was at the same time very concerned about the climate. And then just like the fact of my mortality, I only have so much time in my life, and so I just felt like that was an unsustainable attitude towards time, and I wanted to find something that felt more hopeful and also just more generally. I think I was just trying to recover my appetite for the future. I think it's really hard to think about the future right now.

[Luke Burbank]

You start the book talking about moss that was growing in your apartment. What did that teach you about time?

[Jenny Odell]

Yeah, so there's a very damp corner of my apartment, and essentially some moss spores came in through the window at some point in the last handful of years. And the moss started growing in a little planter on the windowsill. And I happened to be reading Gathering Moss by Robin Wall Kimmerer. And so I had just.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, I mean, that's an intense flex. I happened to be reading a book about moss when I noticed this moss also growing, which taught me about abstract time.

[Jenny Odell]

Yeah, I mean, I think reading that book really gave me an appreciation for the fact that moss is. I mean, it's alive. It's also responsive. So, you know, having it in my apartment, I think it made me pay more attention to moss outside and just seeing, you know, minutes after it rains, everything turns more green. And the fact that moss can go dormant for, you know, many years and then come back in the presence of water, that's just a notion of time that feels kind of more stretchy and less linear than obviously something like clock time.

[Luke Burbank]

But what are the. You write about this in the book. What are the sort of different times that you talk about in the book with moss or.

[Jenny Odell]

No, just in general.

[Luke Burbank]

Throughout the book, I think we've covered the moss topic.

[Jenny Odell]

So, yeah, I mean, I was trying to. I was kind of trying to think of, like, different languages of time, different ways of thinking about time. So, like, the most obvious one is time is money, which, because it's so common and something that we take for granted, I think it's actually really helpful to just look at the history of how time came to be conceived of as money and also just kind of make the point that that's one language about time of many. So the rest of the book is thinking about ecological time. Geological time, communal time, crip time, which is a term from disability studies about the fact that someone with a disability kind of runs up against industrialized clock time, but also points to the ways in which that's inhumane for everyone, not just people who are disabled. So yeah, it kind of starts with the time is money concept and then tries to zoom out from that and find these other languages of thinking about time.

[Luke Burbank]

Was it you and your friends are saying, like beans is money?

[Jenny Odell]

Oh, that's your thing.

[Luke Burbank]

Time is beans.

[Jenny Odell]

What does that mean? So that is like the unofficial motto of my book, Time is Beans, because I mentioned the story about this friend of mine who's in her 70s. She basically bought some beans from somewhere 20 years ago, doesn't remember where she got them. She grew them, they were very delicious. She also gave them to her friends. Those friends thought they were also delicious. Now she doesn't know where to get them, but luckily those friends had grown some of them to maturity and gave them back to her. And now she speculates this is. This lineage of beans has spread across the entire country. And when I was talking to her about it, we were kind of discussing the fact that that's a very non transactional exchange. Like something was given back to her, but it's not exactly what she was giving. And it's this sort of non zero sum way of thinking about giving and taking that I wanted to use as a metaphor for time, where it's something different than me having my time units and my time bank and you having yours. And all we can do is exchange them in a transactional way.

[Luke Burbank]

We're talking to Jenny Odell. Her new book is Saving Time, Discovering a Life beyond the Clock. Do you think that we approach the idea of time differently here in the US than other places? I think a lot of us think of like Italy and France, where it's supposedly everyone's having like a three hour lunch and wine at like one in the afternoon. That just seems great. I mean, is there anything uniquely American about how Americans sort of think about time?

[Jenny Odell]

I think so. I mean, definitely the Protestant work ethic is very strong here. Like the notion that being busy is something morally good. You know, some of the studies that I read that were comparing the US to Western Europe, for example, Americans responded to surveys valuing like individual responsibility a lot more. So like the sort of notion like the bootstrapper ethos. And that lends itself to a notion that I have my, Yeah, I have 24 hours, just like everyone else has 24 abstract hours. And my job is to run them through my sort of success factory more and more efficiently versus thinking more collectively about policies or structures that would liberate more time for more people. I do think that that's an American kind of view.

[Luke Burbank]

Your previous book, how to Do Nothing, was this huge hit, and it was on Barack Obama's list for that year of books that he was reading and recommending. How do you get that information? Like, as the writer of one of those books, does he call you?

[Jenny Odell]

Sadly, no. No, I was actually. My boyfriend and I were on our way to a movie and I just heard him in the next room say, like, I think he said, have some weird news because he had seen it on Twitter.

[Elena Passarello]

Oh, so you don't even get a personal call? You just find out what the rest of the plebs.

[Jenny Odell]

Oh, yeah. Wow.

[Elena Passarello]

There's no crown and scepter in the.

[Luke Burbank]

Mail or no oversized check?

[Sponsor/Announcer]

Nope.

[Luke Burbank]

But, I mean, it must be a pretty big honor and must have been a pretty good day for you.

[Jenny Odell]

Yeah, I mean, it's surreal. I mean, I think, like, that. I mean, this book as well. But how did you. Nothing was very personal. Like, it has a lot. It's. It has a lot of details that are specific to me and specific to the Bay Area. And so to just know actually that anyone has gone on that journey and finds it resonant is amazing to me, even if they're not Obama. Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

It feels to me like this latest book, Saving Time, is a sort of natural outgrowth of how to Do Nothing. Because if you're going to try to focus on doing nothing, or at least kind of decoupling from, like, financial thoughts being the primary objective, et cetera, and spend more time in reflection, which is what you write about in the first book. You got to figure out how to reorient your time so that you can actually do that. But I'm curious, for people that don't have that luxury, like, the way that their clock is oriented is survival mode, you know, economically, emotionally, what would your advice to those folks or what can you offer to those folks who don't maybe have the luxury of sitting down and thinking, I'm going to spend more time in reflection?

[Jenny Odell]

I mean, I think the number one thing that I would say is, you know, like, I talk about productivity bros, which is my term for, like, a person who makes a certain type of content online about, like, crushing your morning and, like, making a smoothie at 3am or whatever.

[Luke Burbank]

You mean rising and grinding?

[Jenny Odell]

Yeah. Yes. And I guess I would say that I feel like, there's something a little bit punitive about that, like telling someone who doesn't have control over their time that they could if they just worked harder, if they did it better. And so I guess, like, the first thing I would say is to not subscribe to that way of thinking and not sort of blame oneself. And then also look to, you know, what are ways that you can join up with others to build some sort of collective power because you individually don't have it. Whether that's, you know, union organizing or something less formal, but basically just acknowledging that you would need to move beyond the individual because that type of content is always really addressing the individual in isolation from those other things.

[Luke Burbank]

I mean, I don't want to boil it down too much, but is the overarching idea of the book really, capitalism is sort of the problem. Like, you have basically, like time is money.

[Jenny Odell]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

You have labor, you have value being taken away from people and then accreting to the pockets of super wealthy. And that is that basically the main issue?

[Jenny Odell]

Yeah, it's the same. And it's the exact same one as in how to do nothing. So, yeah, I mean, capitalism remains the problem. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, you know, when I was the first, whole first chapter is about the history of that concept of time is money. And you find out that time is money. The time in that equation is other people's labor time. That is how that notion came about. Even if now, even if a privileged person is sort of in control of their own time.

[Luke Burbank]

There's internal radio show, for instance. Yeah, yeah.

[Jenny Odell]

But, you know, like, that sort of notion of control remains, like in the way time is talked about. When you say time is money.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. The book is fascinating. It's Saving Time by Jenny Odell. Jenny, thanks for coming on Livewire.

[Jenny Odell]

Thank you.

[Luke Burbank]

That was Jenny o'. Dell. Her latest book, Saving Time, Discovering a Life beyond the Clock, is available now. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. We've got to take a quick break, but don't go anywhere. When we come back, you're going to hear some amazing music. Crumb, black belt, Eagle Scout, stay with us. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Livewire from prx. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. I'm excited to play another round of station location identification with you. Are you ready for that?

[Elena Passarello]

Let's do it.

[Luke Burbank]

All right. This is where I'm going to quiz Elena on a place in the country where Livewire's on the Radio. She's got to try to guess where I am talking about. The name of this city was derived from the Native American term meaning wild rice. In 2002, an elephant escaped from the circus in this place and went on a little self guided tour of the main streets of this city.

[Elena Passarello]

It's not Milwaukee, is it?

[Luke Burbank]

No, but it starts with an M. Also, the Muppets sing a song that almost sounds like the name of this city.

[Elena Passarello]

Menominee.

[Luke Burbank]

Menominee, Wisconsin. We're on WHWC radio on Wisconsin Public Radio.

[Elena Passarello]

Well clued, Burbank.

[Jenny Odell]

Well clued.

[Luke Burbank]

It turns out we may have been working together for a while. This is Livewire. All right, before we get to our musical guest, a little bit preview of what we are doing next week on the show we are going to be joined by best selling author Mary Roach. She's got a new book out, it's called Replaceable Adventures in Human Anatomy which looks at advancements in our actual body parts From Prosthetics to 3D Printing of organs and even growing some of them from stem cells. It also ponders some of the big questions on the sort of ethics and morality of replacing parts of our bodies with various things. Then we're gonna get some stand up comedy from Janesh Rollin. He's gonna tell us about growing up in Texas where he moved from India, where then they put him in a class with mostly native Spanish speaking students and things didn't turn out exactly like you might expect. And then for our musical guest we are gonna be bringing you a performance from the singer songwriter Amy Milan. She might be best known for being the co lead singer of the indie rock band Starz. Also her work with the band Broken Social Scene. Amy has a new solo album out, it's called I Went to Find you'd and it's a very personal work of music for her. She's gonna play us a song from that. And also she was in fact an actor on the TV show Degrassi Junior High at least for one episode. She'll tell us about that. This is Livewire from prx. Our musical guest this week grew up on the Swinomish Indian tribal community in LA Connor, Washington where she was influenced by the cultural singing and drumming of her family as well as bootleg tapes of Hole and Nirvana. Her latest album, the Land, the Water, the sky is a love letter to indigenous strength and healing that Rolling Stone calls fiery and brilliant. Take a listen to Black Belt Eagle Scout right here on Liveland. Kp, welcome to the show.

[Black Belt Eagle Scout]

Thank you for Having me.

[Luke Burbank]

I'm curious when you started realizing music was gonna be a really big part of your life, personally, like, how old were you? What did the music do to you? What kind of music was it?

[Black Belt Eagle Scout]

Yeah, I mean, I'm from Swinomish and my family are all singers, but we're more so like cultural singers. And then also in Washington, grunge, riot, grrrl, all this really incredible DIY underground music that just sort of was a part of our everyday life also. And so, I don't know, I feel like middle school, high school, I was like, everyday people do music. I could do music too.

[Luke Burbank]

This album is so beautiful. What were you going for, sonically, when you produced it, when you recorded it? Like, it just has such a. A unique and lush sound.

[Black Belt Eagle Scout]

I was lucky to work with a really good friend of mine, Takiya Reed, from this band called Divide and Dissolve. She's this, like, metal guitarist and she has this plethora of pedals that just sort of takes up the essence of, like, the wilderness. And I think we just jumped off from there having, like, a really atmospheric sound with a lot of reverb, a lot of, like, crunchy sort of guitars that I think really, like, set the scene for what could, you know, come from different songwriting parts.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, I feel like it's really dreamy, but it also has a lot of really great rockin guitar. It's not any one thing. As soon as I think it's being one thing, it sort of shifts a little bit. Where is the COVID photo for the album taken? Because in the words of Liz Lemon, I want to go to there. Where is that at?

[Jenny Odell]

That.

[Black Belt Eagle Scout]

That's one of my homelands of Swinomish. It's within one of the bays. And so there's this little bay that's outside of some of the islands there.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, yeah, It's a pretty magical part of the country. Where are you living these days?

[Black Belt Eagle Scout]

I live in Swinomish.

[Luke Burbank]

Was that important for you, or has it been important for you to be physically in, like, the place of your ancestors and be around that?

[Black Belt Eagle Scout]

Yeah, I mean, for me, like, where I'm from, I always knew I was going to move back home. I didn't know that I would move back so soon. And I think that being home in the time of the pandemic, like, there was a lot more space to be outside. There was a lot more space to walk around and feel, I guess, more like connected to where I'm from. And that was really helpful in the writing process of the record.

[Luke Burbank]

All right, this is Black Belt Eagle Scout here on Livewire.

[Livewire Promo Voice]

Sam. So important love it keeps me alive. You wanted a second chance at life. Well, you're alive. You hear your heart beat and you.

[Luke Burbank]

Walk.

[Livewire Promo Voice]

Trees engulfed by beauty. I just told you here with me I don't give up I don't give.

[Luke Burbank]

Up.

[Livewire Promo Voice]

I don't give up I don't give up anymore I don't give up. Sam, you heard it here today I told you my story that I found healing in you Ending leaves are flowing or and in these leaves they come from people who grow but where to listen? Guide us I want everyone to know I don't give up up I don't give up I don't give up I don't give up anymore I don't give up I don't give up up anymore I don't give up I was only.

[Luke Burbank]

17.

[Livewire Promo Voice]

I was only 17 degrees land, the water, the sky, the land, the water, the sky, the land, the water, the sky, the land, the water, the sky, the land, the water, the sky, the land, the water, the sky, the land, the water, the sky, the land.

[Luke Burbank]

The water.

[Livewire Promo Voice]

And the sky.

[Luke Burbank]

That was Black Belt Eagle Scout playing Don't give up right here on Livewire. That's off her latest album, the Land, the Water, the sky, which is available now. That's gonna do it for this week's episode of Livewire. A huge thanks to our guests Dana Schwartz, Jenny o', Dell, and Black Belt Eagle Scout.

[Elena Passarello]

Lara Haddon is our executive producer. Heather D. Michel is our executive director, and our producer and editor is Melanie Savchenko. Molly Pettit is our technical director, and our house sound is by Danielle Blake. Trey Hester is our assistant editor. Our marketing and production manager is Karen Pan. Rosa Garcia is our operations associate. Jackie Ibarra is our production fellow, and Aunt Diaz is our intern. Our house band is Ethan Fox, Tucker, Sam Tucker, Eyal Alves, and A. Walker Spring, who also composes our music. This episode was mixed by Molly Pettit and Trey Hester.

[Luke Burbank]

Additional funding provided by the Marie Lamp from charitable foundation Livewire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week, we'd like to thank members Karen and Brian McManus of Seattle, Washington. For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast, head ON over to livewireradio.org I'm Luke Burbank. For Elena Passarello and the whole Livewire crew. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week. Hey, if you appreciate the work that Livewire is doing to amplify riveting and unexpected voices to a national audience. And I gotta tell you, it's a big audience these days. Please, please, please consider offering some monthly support by becoming a member of our League of Extraordinary Listeners. Here's how it works. Membership starts at just five bucks a month and there are great perks at every level, including a special shout out on the broadcast. Impress your friends by being shouted out on Livewire. It means the world to us and really does make it possible for us to do the show. So please, if you can help, support us by visiting livewireradio.org memberships.

[Elena Passarello]

From PRX.