Danez Smith, Rachel Khong, and Danielia Cotton (REBROADCAST)

Summary

Live Wire with Luke Burbank: Rebroadcast Episode Featuring Danez Smith, Rachel Khong, and Danelia Cotton

Release Date: May 30, 2025

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Introduction

In this electrifying rebroadcast of Live Wire with Luke Burbank, host Luke Burbank engages with acclaimed writer Rachel Khong and renowned poet Danez Smith, alongside a captivating musical performance by Danelia Cotton. The episode delves deep into themes of family dynamics, cultural identity, the transformative power of poetry, and the enduring legacy of Black country music.

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Segment 1: Best News of the Week

Before diving into the main discussions, Luke and co-host Elaina Passarello share heartwarming stories that highlight the unexpected heroes of the week.

• Beavers as Environmental Engineers ([02:51])
  Elaina narrates a remarkable tale from the Birdie Nature Park in Bohemia, Czech Republic, where a group of Eurasian beavers successfully completed a million-dollar water restoration project for free. "They make the water deeper, which is good for them. It helps them evade predators, helps them create cold storage for their beaver lodges. And that in turn welcomes a ton of different species." The project not only enhanced the ecosystem but also demonstrated the incredible natural engineering skills of beavers.

• Heroic Rescue in Westfield, Indiana ([05:03])
  David Fisher, a Guinness World Record-holding jump rope expert, becomes an unexpected hero when he saves a teenager and his dog from a frozen river. Using his expertise, David innovatively employs jump ropes to secure and pull the teenager to safety. "He throws one of his double Dutch jump ropes to the kid who is able to grab onto it." Both David and his son Felix were honored with the Life Saving Citizen Award for their bravery.

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Segment 2: Conversation with Rachel Khong on Real Americans

Rachel Khong, celebrated for her debut novel Goodbye Vitamin, joins the show to discuss her latest work, Real Americans. The novel has been lauded by the New York Times as one of the most anticipated books of the year.

• Overview of Real Americans ([08:46] - [10:03])
  Rachel outlines the novel's structure, which is divided into three sections, each narrated by a different member of a Chinese American family: Lily, her son Nick, and her mother Mei. "This book features, I guess, three members of the same Chinese American family... about where their stories intersect, the betrayals, the secrets that happen between these characters."

• Themes of Luck and Cultural Expectations ([10:03] - [12:30])
  The conversation explores the motif of luck within the family dynamic, particularly through Mei's scientific attempts to "engineer" luck by cultivating four-leaf clovers. Rachel reflects on her own upbringing, highlighting the pressures of parental expectations in immigrant families. "When I was growing up, my parents always said to me, we sacrificed so much for you to be here... I felt this responsibility to be healthier, happier, taller." This introspection underscores the generational and cultural tensions that permeate the novel.

• Research and Writing Process ([14:45] - [17:30])
  Rachel delves into the extensive research undertaken for the novel, which spans various geographies and historical periods, including Mao's China and contemporary America. She shares insights on integrating historical oral histories and her experiences visiting Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory to enrich the narrative. "I was really interested in the stories China tells about itself, but also the stories that America tells about itself and the stories that really shape all of our lives as Americans."

• Parenting and Understanding Across Generations ([18:05] - [20:20])
  The dialogue shifts to the universal struggle of parents trying to comprehend their children amid cultural and generational divides. Rachel emphasizes the importance of humility and the recognition that parents cannot fully understand their children's experiences. "...a parent can't know everything about their child, that a government can't know everything for its citizens..."

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Segment 3: Listener Questions

Luke engages with listeners by posing the question, "What's something you do as an adult that would shock your younger self?" Responses include humorous and relatable answers about taking naps, dusting effectively, and unexpected expenditures, adding a lighthearted break between intense conversations.

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Segment 4: Conversation with Danez Smith on Bluff

Danez Smith returns to discuss their latest poetry collection, Bluff, which the New York Times describes as a work that "nurses the tension between art and action and exhorts readers to acknowledge injustice while appreciating the chaotic nature of human existence."

• Purpose and Impact of Poetry ([26:09] - [29:01])
  Danez articulates the role of poetry as a vehicle for transformation and expressing complex human emotions. "Poems are little vehicles of transformation and humanness." They explore how poetry can both reflect and influence societal issues, emphasizing humility and the limitations of art in enacting change.

• Themes of Humility and Knowledge ([20:31] - [21:25])
  Reflecting on the broader implications of their work, Danez discusses how the book advocates for humility in understanding others and recognizing the limits of one's knowledge. "There's so many limits to what we can know... we are at this moment in history where we kind of think we can know everything."

• Personal and Collective Histories ([36:38] - [38:25])
  The conversation touches on the intersection of personal narratives with broader cultural histories, particularly regarding Black identity and joy. Rachel shares personal anecdotes about reconciling family relationships through poetry, highlighting the power of art to bridge generational and cultural gaps. "I love my husband. Do you ever write a poem when you get in a fight with him?" Her poem readings underscore the emotional depth and societal relevance of her work.

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Segment 5: Musical Performance by Danelia Cotton

Danelia Cotton takes center stage to perform her original song "Bring Out the Country Me," a heartfelt tribute to Charley Pride, the first Black American inducted into the Country Music Hall of Fame. Cotton discusses the personal significance of Pride's legacy and her grandfather's secret admiration for country music, which inspired her to honor this trailblazer through her music.

• Discussion on Black Country Music Legacy ([43:35] - [46:33])
  Danelia shares her family's history and the challenges faced by Black artists in predominantly white genres. "...Charley Pride didn't think, oh, this is a white genre. I just like this genre." She emphasizes the importance of respecting and honoring the roots of country music while infusing her unique indie rock style.

• Performance: "Bring Out the Country Me" ([47:25] - [51:31])
  Danelia delivers a powerful performance of her song, blending traditional country elements with modern indie sounds. The lyrics poignantly express the struggle and pride of maintaining one's cultural identity amidst changing environments.
  Excerpt from "Bring Out the Country Me":
  "Everything's new fast right now
  I will trade concrete for blue grass
  ...
  Country girl is all I'll ever be"
  The performance is met with enthusiastic applause, highlighting the emotional resonance and cultural significance of her tribute.

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Conclusion

This episode of Live Wire with Luke Burbank masterfully intertwines profound literary and poetic discussions with inspiring musical performances. Rachel Khong and Danez Smith offer deep insights into their respective works, exploring themes of family, cultural identity, and the transformative power of art. Danelia Cotton's homage to Charley Pride adds a rich musical layer, celebrating the enduring legacy of Black artists in country music. Together, the guests provide a multifaceted exploration of contemporary issues and personal narratives, making this episode a must-listen for enthusiasts of literature, poetry, and music.

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Notable Quotes:

• Rachel Khong ([01:45]): "I think poems are little vehicles of transformation and humanness. And what do we want out of an argument besides transformation?"

• Danez Smith ([20:31]): "There are so many limits to what we can know. And I think that as people, we're at this moment in history where we kind of think we can know everything."

• Danelia Cotton ([44:38]): "Charley Pride didn't think, oh, this is a white genre. I just like this genre."

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the episode, providing listeners with a clear understanding of the key discussions, insights, and performances featured on Live Wire with Luke Burbank.

Transcript

[Luke Burbank]

Hey there. Welcome to Livewire. I'm your host, Luke Burbank. This week on the show, we are gonna be talking to the writer Rachel Kong as part of the Portland Book Festival, talking about her latest novel. It's called Real Americans. It was one of the most anticipated books of the year by the New York Times. It tells the story of a woman and her mother and a big family secret. It's a real page turner. We're also gonna talk to the poet Danez Smith about their latest book, Bluff. Danez is also gonna read one of their, which is always a highlight here on Livewire. Then we've got some incredible music coming your way from singer songwriter Danelia Cotton, who has a new record out honoring Charley Pride, the first black country superstar, and made quite the impression on the culture. And Danelia, you are not gonna wanna miss this song. In fact, you don't wanna miss any of this week's episode of Livewire because it's gonna be really good. So stick around it. Start. Livewire is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally irresponsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. This episode of Livewire was originally recorded in February of 2025. We hope you like it. Now let's get to the show.

[Elaina Passarello]

From prx, it's Live Wire this week, poet Dennis Smith.

[Rachel Kong]

I think poems are little vehicles of transformation and humanness. And what do we want out of an argument besides transformation?

[Elaina Passarello]

Author Rachel Kong.

[Danez Smith]

I was really interested in the stories China tells about itself, but also the stories that America tells about itself and the stories that really shape all of our lives as Americans.

[Elaina Passarello]

With music from Danelia Cotton and our fabulous house band. I'm your announcer, Elaina Passarello. And now the host of Livewire, Luke Burbank.

[Luke Burbank]

Hey, thank you so much, Elena Passarello. Thanks to everybody tuning in from all over the country. We have got an absolutely spectacular episode of Livewire dialed up for you this week. Before we get going, though, we have to start like we always do, with the best news we've heard all week. This is our little reminder at the top of the show that despite what you may have heard, there's good news happening in the world. You just gotta. Sometimes you gotta look hard. Yeah, but we found some. Elena, what's the best news you heard all week?

[Elaina Passarello]

I found something pretty amazing. So we have to go to the Czech Republic for this story, to the Birdie Nature park, which is this kind of lovely natural space in Bohemia, as it's known. And they had some water areas that needed restoration. They've actually been planning for this restoration for like seven or eight years. They raised over a million dollars to get it done. But then of course, the project stalled because they were perfect permit issues. Nothing was happening. But guess what? The restoration is complete and it was done by, I would say, the lowest bidder of workers. They did it for free.

[Luke Burbank]

What?

[Elaina Passarello]

They did a million dollar water restoration for free. Do you want to know who they were?

[Luke Burbank]

Yes.

[Elaina Passarello]

They were eight Eurasian beavers. You know, people call beavers the engineers of the animal kingdom. They make entire ecosystems. They can build dams that are up to, you know, like seven football fields long that can be seen from space. There's a dam in Canada that has done this.

[Luke Burbank]

And there are these really complicated ecosystems, Right, that they end up by slowing down the movement of the water. All this other stuff happens. I mean, it's kind of remarkable.

[Elaina Passarello]

Yeah, they make the water deeper, which is good for them. Right. It helps them evade predators, helps them create cold storage for their beaver lodges. And that in turn welcomes a ton of different species. It's also really good for cleaning, keeping things clean, keeping pollutants out and fire prevention. They're amazing. And also apparently they work really cheap.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, throw em a couple of poplars.

[Elaina Passarello]

They were introduced back into the park in 2020, so when plans to do this restoration had already taken place. And it, it probably took him a few weeks to do it, it wasn't like an overnight thing, but they're already noticing the differences all throughout the water system. And the director of the Czech Nature and Landscape Protection Agency summed it up best when he said, well, I guess beavers just always know best.

[Luke Burbank]

Love it. The best news that I saw this week comes from Westfield, Indiana, where the lakes and the rivers can get pretty frozen and pretty covered in ice, but it can still be pretty dangerous, which is exactly what happened not that long ago when a guy named David Fisher, his son Felix, who's in college at Ball State in Muncie, is going out to the car to get something and heard a commotion out on this river that kind of runs right behind their home. And he saw basically that somebody's dog had gotten into this icy river and was sort of flailing about and that this teenager had gone in after his dog. And this is what happens a lot with these kinds of things. The dog got its way out of the river. The teenager was now stuck in the river, you know, underwater and getting very, very cold very, very quickly. So Felix runs back, yells for his dad. David says, get out here. David immediately grabs two long ropes out of his garage and sprints down to the river. Now, why did he have these long ropes, Elena? Because he is a Guinness World record holding jump rope expert. He is a master in the, in the art and science of jumping rope. He's been doing it as his profession for over 30 years. He's jump roped in front of 10 million people, including Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and at one point, Boris Yeltsin, of all people. He has the Guinness World record for most jumps while sitting on his backside, which Guinness describes as rump jumps. So this is like the perfect person. He grabs his two extra long double dutch jump ropes and he, like, gives one to Felix, who's on the shore and, like, ties it off and. And then he gets out there in the water and then he's like, kind of low on the ice. He's spreading out his weight.

[Elaina Passarello]

He's like rump jump level, right?

[Luke Burbank]

Exactly. There's a photo of David Fisher establishing the rump jump record. And he's in a position that looks like it would be pretty ideal if you were trying to not break through the ice. Like, this guy has been preparing. He's been preparing his whole life for this moment. So he gets out there on the ice and he throws the other double dutch jump rope to the kid who is able to grab onto it. And eventually, after a couple of false starts, they eventually get the kid out of the water. He is unharmed. The dog is okay as well. Everyone is all right, thanks to David Fisher and his love of jump rope in Westfield, Indiana. By the way, Felix and David both received the Life Saving Citizen Award from the town of Westfield, Indiana. Well, they should have rump jumps and the Citizen Life Saving Award. Those are the two things now that David Fisher is going to be known for. And that's the best news I heard all week. All right, let's get our first guest on over. Her debut novel, Goodbye Vitamin, took the world by storm back in 2018 when it was named a best book of the year by npr, by Oprah's magazine, by Vogue and Esquire. And this probably explains why her latest book, which is called Real Americans, was named one of the most anticipated books of the year by the New York Times. And they were right. The LA Times says it's an irresistible puzzle of a novel. So let's start Putting those pieces together. Rachel Kong joined us as part of the Portland Book Festival at the Patricia Research center for the Arts in Beaverton, Oregon to talk about the book. Take a listen.

[Danez Smith]

Hi, everyone.

[Luke Burbank]

Hello, Rachel. Welcome to Livewire.

[Danez Smith]

Thank you.

[Luke Burbank]

Congratulations on the book.

[Danez Smith]

Thank you so much.

[Luke Burbank]

Let's talk about the sort of three. This book is broken up into three sections. There's kind of three main characters. There's Lily, there's her son Nick, and then there's her mother, May. Kind of lay out who these folks are and what's going on for them in the book.

[Danez Smith]

Sure. So this book features, I guess, three members of the same Chinese American family. And it's sort of presented out of order. We start with Lily, who is a 20 something broke, just out of college student when we meet her in the year 1999, 2000. And then the second section is narrated by her son Nick, and he's living on this sort of isolated island in Washington. He doesn't know who his father is and he's sort of struggling to figure out who he is. And the last section is narrated by Mei, who is actually Lily's mother, and she has fled from Mao's China and sort of carved out a life for herself in America as this really ambitious scientist. And it's about where their stories intersect, the betrayals, the secrets that happen between these characters.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. Luck seems to be a theme or the question of sort of if you can make your luck or if luck happens to you. I think May has, because she's a scientist, has like engineered an entire lawn of four leaf clovers for Lily, who thinks that this is just what people's lawn is, like an attempt to sort of push luck.

[Danez Smith]

Yeah, I think about that all the time. Like, why is a four leaf clover considered lucky? It's because it's rare. Right. And I think sometimes we think of rare things as lucky things, but other times we think of rare things and we think, oh, that's bad, you know, And I think that's a question that is really interesting to me. Like, what do we value and why do we value it? It's so fascinating.

[Luke Burbank]

Lily and Mae have a pretty complicated relationship for one reason that I won't mention as a spoiler, but, but also because of like, her expectations, Mei's expectations for Lily, which is something that's often described in Chinese American families. I'm curious for you, growing up, were there expectations around your life and where did Ryder fit into that?

[Danez Smith]

When I was growing up, my parents always said to me, we sacrificed so much for you to be here. They came to America when I was two years old. They did sacrifice a lot for us to be here and to try to have a better life. Right. But I felt this responsibility to be healthier, happier, taller. And I didn't. I'm not taller than my mom, actually. I'm two inches shorter, unfortunately.

[Luke Burbank]

Very disappointing.

[Elaina Passarello]

Oh, no.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah.

[Danez Smith]

It's one of the main disappointments, I think. But I think that statement is so much pressure. And I think I wrote this book out of just a feeling that, I don't know, I wonder who I would have been if I hadn't necessarily had that hanging over me, you know, and writer, definitely, for an immigrant family is not something that is necessarily on the table. When I was growing up, my I would say to my parents, I want to be a writer. And they would say, oh, you want to be a journalist? Because journalists, at least that's a job, you know, you could get a paycheck from that, a pretty regular paycheck. And novelist was just like, out of, you know, it was out of the question. Nobody was a novelist that we, that we knew of, you know, so they've gotten used to the idea and now they understand what I'm up to.

[Luke Burbank]

Right. I mean, to see this book, like, if they're walking past a Hudson News and it's like, gotta be pretty cool for them to see that this dream of yours has become such a real thing.

[Danez Smith]

It is really cool. And I think that lately I've been thinking about the reason I'm a writer at all. I think it does have to do with their decision to come here to America. Right. And to bring me to public libraries. When I was growing up, I was just this very lonely, shy kid, and libraries and books were my best friends. And so my parents took me to the library. They sort of made me a writer. So it's truly their fault.

[Luke Burbank]

This is LIVEWIRE radio from prx. We are talking to the writer Rachel Kong about her newest novel, real Americans. We have to take a very quick break, but don't go anywhere. When we come back, Rachel is gonna talk about the ongoing struggle of parents trying to understand their kids, which if you have a kid, you know, is an ongoing struggle, especially when there are cultural and generational differences. Stay with us. Much more livewire. Just ahead, special thanks to our sponsor, Up Up Books, a Portland bookshop specializing in diverse authors, local writers, and independent presses. They're located across from Revolution hall in the Buckman neighborhood, and they offer a space for book clubs, workshops and events. Check out their Website and grab a [e-mail] welcome back to Livewire. I'm your host, Luke Burbank, here with Elena Passarello. We are listening back to a conversation we recorded with the author Rachel Kong about her novel Real Americans. Let's pick that conversation back up now. We recorded this as part of the Portland Book Festival live at the Patricia Research center for the Arts in Beaverton, Oregon. I'm wondering what their research was like for this book because it really spans a bunch of time, eras, and geography. It's rural China. It's New York at Y2K. It's a remote island in the Pacific Northwest. It's Florida.

[Danez Smith]

Yeah. I did actually live in Florida for three years during grad school. So that was sort of where the Florida stuff came from. You know, I wrote a lot of this book during the pandemic, and I just wanted to be in other places and in other times. And so it was really fun to get to sort of. Yeah. To pretend to be in all these places. And the research was happening alongside the writing of the book itself. And some of it was actually visiting the places once I could, once the pandemic was quote, unquote, over. But it was just a lot of reading books, listening to articles, bookmarking everything that I could. And, you know, so there's a laboratory in this book. It's on Long Island. In my mind, I was imagining Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory, which actually was the site of a lot of eugenics research in the early 1900s. And I was fascinated by that. And I wrote that sort of into the book, just like imagining myself there and deep into writing this book, Cold Spring harbor actually set up this artist residency, and I applied to it and I went, oh, my gosh. So in the final stretches of working on this book, I got to go to Long island, got to root around these archives and, you know, filled in even more details, got to visit the labs of scientists who were so generous. But it felt like it was faded almost, you know, like I had imagined myself there. And then I really got to be there.

[Elaina Passarello]

Did I see that you also got first person testimonials of a historical time that you weren't present for, like, oral history stuff.

[Danez Smith]

There are oral histories online of survivors of the Cultural Revolution. And so that's what I turned to for some of those details of that period, which, yeah, I didn't live through. I have no idea what it was actually like to be there.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, it feels extremely rooted. Like, there's this moment where I think there's this sort of propaganda thing around Mao swimming in the river in the Yangtze or something. And everyone's supposed to be really excited that he's so vigorous. And Mei is like, I don't know about this. Yeah, is that a thing that really happened? Did you find a photo of Mao swimming in a river?

[Danez Smith]

It's a classic, famous photo. He's swimming in the river. He's purported to have swum a great distance, but you just see him obviously, like, it's a black and white image of his head bobbing in the water. And. Yeah, I mean, I think I was so fascinated by Chinese propaganda and the stories that China likes to tell in order to sort of, you know, create its image of itself. And I was really interested in the stories China tells about itself, but also the stories that America tells about itself and the stories that really shape all of our lives as Americans.

[Luke Burbank]

In reading the book, because of the way that it has these three characters, Mae, her daughter, and then her grandson, and what they're all going through, what I was struck by was this notion, I think a lot of us have, probably particularly a lot of white Americans have, that the first wave of immigrants, like a first generation group, where maybe there's a challenge with the language, maybe there's a lot of poverty in order to make this dream happen. Then you have the second generation, it's better for them, you have the third generation, and then it's fine. And what this book tells me is it's really never exactly fine for everybody. I mean, there's no point at which it's like, okay, now it's free and easy.

[Danez Smith]

Yeah. I mean, I guess. I wonder, is it free and easy for anybody?

[Elaina Passarello]

But it's also so pendular, like culture aside, like, you see one generation in your book raising their children in a reaction to how they grew up. And then when that child grows up and has a kid, the pendulum swings in a different direction and they raise their child in that way. And you see that child making these vows and making these decisions. So it feels like that's another thing that's never going to be. Never going to be fine, but we're always going to be dealing with, like, the turbulence of whoever came before us and what they had to react to.

[Danez Smith]

Exactly. I mean, I think about. I think this book is very much about the struggle for anyone in a family to understand each other. But, you know, more broadly, for any individual to understand somebody else, there's. There are so many differences between people. Right. There's the sort of generational Difference. Sometimes there can be a cultural difference. We just have different, like, reference points, and we have lived different lives. And it's kind of a miracle when people do actually communicate. Right. Despite all those differences. And I think that question of parents understanding their children is something that I'm so fascinated by because parents are. Or, you know, you hope that parents are trying to do the best they can for their child. But even if they do do their very best, it's not necessarily what that child needs because the child is living through a completely different circumstance and a different cultural context or just generational context. And I think it's so sad, right, that you can try your best. You can want the best for your child and. And not really fully be able to imagine what that child actually needs.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. I think that the key to parenting. And by the way, I have it, everyone. Yes. So good news. I've cracked the code now. I mean, obviously, there are always going to be ways in which I'm a parent. We as parents let our kids down. Being open to that reality and acknowledging it seems like the only way forward. Being a perfect parent is not a realistic thing. Being a parent who recognizes our own inability to be a perfect parent is pretty much all you can do.

[Danez Smith]

Yeah. Sometimes people ask me, you know, is there any takeaway from this book? And I always say, you know, there is no takeaway. That's not why I write novels. It's not for, like, a perfect.

[Luke Burbank]

Hold on, let me scratch my final question. I know. No takeaway.

[Danez Smith]

No takeaway.

[Luke Burbank]

Okay.

[Danez Smith]

But I do think the sort of unglamorous takeaway is. I don't know, it's a book that sort of makes a case for humility. The fact that we don't know everything, that a parent can't know everything about their child, that a government can't know everything for its citizens. And there are so many limits to what we can know. And I think that as people, we're at this moment in history where we kind of think we can know everything. Right. Like, we're so certain about science and about AI Being great.

[Luke Burbank]

And I think that laugh kind of.

[Rachel Kong]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

Tells you all you need to know about AI at least as of right now.

[Danez Smith]

And I think. Yeah, I don't know if that's a good thing, to be so sure of ourselves and to be so sure in our own knowledge.

[Luke Burbank]

The book is Real Americans from Rachel Kong, thanks for coming on Live Wire.

[Rachel Kong]

Thank you. Thanks so much.

[Luke Burbank]

That was Rachel Kong right here on livewire as part of the Portland Book Festival. Her latest book Real Americans is out now. Hey, special thanks this episode to Ken Edwards of Portland, Oregon, who is part of the Livewire member community and is generously supporting the show with a donation each month. And we are grateful for that support because it is how we are able to keep doing the show. So, Ken, thank you for keeping Livewire going. Livewire is brought to you by Powell's Books, a Portland institution since 1971. Powell's offers a selection of new and used books in stores and online@powell's.com. this is LiveWire Radio from PRX. I'm Luke Burbank. That's Alaina Passarello. We love to ask the Livewire audience a question based on kind of what's going on with the show week to week? And so, inspired by Rachel Kong's book Real Americans, we asked the Livewire listeners, what's something you do as an adult that would shock your younger self? Okay, what are our listeners saying?

[Elaina Passarello]

AJ Says their younger self would be shocked because, quote, I own a duster, and I actually use the duster.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh. Oh, okay. Like the thing that you dust off, you know, like.

[Danez Smith]

Yes.

[Elaina Passarello]

Like a jacket. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I feel like I used to walk into houses and never pay attention to the level of dust or anything. I just, I was completely unable to see it. And now, like, I, I. Right before we started recording, one of my recording devices has dust on it, and it is driving me crazy.

[Luke Burbank]

Okay, here's the thing. I love going around and dusting. It's very satisfying. But it raises the question, where is this dust going?

[Elaina Passarello]

That's why you gotta vacuum it afterwards, my dude.

[Luke Burbank]

That's the problem. What's something else that someone. Someone's younger self would be surprised they're doing in adulthood?

[Elaina Passarello]

Well, this one hits hard. Sarah says I appreciate naps, not as a punishment, but as a precious gift from God. Oh, a good nap.

[Luke Burbank]

Absolutely. Oh, God. I've really been getting into, like, my. My short nap game, you know? Like, there was a period in my 20s, I would do more like second sleep, maybe after having a few too many drinks the night before. Like, you just go back to bed for a period of maybe over two hours. How about you? What's your nap strategy?

[Elaina Passarello]

My nap strategy is to put a pillow over my head, so. And have a cat directly on my chest so I can hold both of its paws with a pillow over my head. And then my husband walks in and. And he says, it looks like the weird. The world's weirdest murder plot because it looks like the cat has smothered me with the pillow and is then like choking me. But really, I'm just like.

[Luke Burbank]

Cats, nature's white noise machine.

[Elaina Passarello]

Yes.

[Luke Burbank]

All right. One more thing that somebody is doing as an adult that they would have never expected when they were kids.

[Elaina Passarello]

Oh, poor Jesse. Jesse says, I recently spent $2,000 on a garage door.

[Luke Burbank]

Listen, I've had a couple of homes. Garage door. It's a big part of it. The right garage door, that curb appeal. I've gone down some garage door rabbit holes that I'm not proud of. It's a topic I think about extensively. This is why we all need to be living in tree houses eating candy.

[Danez Smith]

That's right.

[Elaina Passarello]

That's right. Minimal upkeep, never dusting.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. Thank you to everyone who sent in a response to our listener question this week. By the way, you are listening to LiveWire Radio from PRX. Let's talk about our next guest. The Guardian calls them one of the most important American poets of our age. They've been featured in Vanity Fair, the New Yorker. They've made an appearance on the Late show with Stephen Colbert and were also a finalist for the National Book Award. Their latest book is Bluff, and according to the New York Times, they are, quote, a poet who nurses the tension between art and action and exhorts readers to acknowledge injustice while appreciating the chaotic nature of human existence. It's a lot to digest. We're going to give it a shot. Take a listen to Danez Smith, who joined us at Revolution hall in Portland, Oregon, to talk about it. Welcome back to the show, Danez. It's so nice to have you back.

[Rachel Kong]

Thank you for having me.

[Luke Burbank]

This book is really phenomenal. I'm wondering what it was. You've written other books and they've been really well received. What did you want to say with this book that you maybe hadn't talked about previously?

[Rachel Kong]

Yeah, I didn't write for about two years after my previous book, Homie, partly because I had written three books in five years and just kind of needed to shut up for a little bit. I think that's good.

[Luke Burbank]

Is that something for a writer that you need to sort of recharge or build up some kind of new experience?

[Rachel Kong]

1000%. Carl Phillips has a wonderful essay called Silence in his book My Trade is Mystery. And I think he articulates really, really well the necessity of having time away from language. So that way, when you come to it, you actually have something to say. Right. So I think there is like, you know, just that necessary quiet that we all need not even just writers, Right. To let language and truth marinate inside you. Right. You can also talk too much. J.K. rowling wrote all those books, and look, she still talks. And it's bad now. And so.

[Luke Burbank]

So you were trying to avoid that trap.

[Rachel Kong]

There we go.

[Luke Burbank]

Also, I guess maybe on a more serious note, if I have the timeline correct, your sort of couple of years that you weren't writing coincided with the pandemic and the murder of George Floyd.

[Rachel Kong]

Murder of George Floyd. And I'm from Minneapolis, and so it was in my backyard, Right. And writing felt like the last thing that I should do in that time. Right. So I think it felt like a time of action. It felt like a time of. Of strategy, of community. Right. And I think by the time I was coming back to poetry, it was like, why? So that's why I think a lot of the book is this struggle with what is the purpose of art. Right. Art can't be enough. I am like, you go to the work of June Jordan, writing in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. You go to the work of Joy and James Baldwin. I just did another project on the work of Langston Hughes, and one of the comments you get all the time is, oh, my God, it feels like they could have wrote this. Well, that's because progress is literally that slow that the poems of 100 years ago feel like they have the same wants, needs, concerns and demands as the poems that we're writing today. And I think I was at a point where writing just didn't feel like the thing to do. And so if I was gonna write poetry, I really had to tug at it and figure out what its use was.

[Danez Smith]

Do you feel.

[Elaina Passarello]

You know, when I think about arguing, like arguing with yourself, arguing with the world, I think about something that's really not the same thing as verse. What does it look like to try to make something that's a poem that's also like a manifestation of you arguing?

[Rachel Kong]

Well, I think that's what poems do. I think poems are little vehicles of transformation and humanness. And what do we want out of an argument besides transformation? Even if we just think that our partner thinks the wrong thing, you know, we get into that argument until they think the right thing. Right. Right. I love my husband. Do you ever write a poem when.

[Elaina Passarello]

You get in a fight with him? Do you ever write a poem to see if he'll change his mind?

[Rachel Kong]

No, he gets it straight from the cow's mouth. But then I write a lovely poem about forgiveness and the difficulty and beauty of love. And Elena, to answer your question about argumentation, right. I think it's good to struggle against something. Right. Poetry is an art of epiphany. It's an art of thought. It's an art of saying this was the truth. Right. And the best truths in our lives come from a little bit of argument.

[Luke Burbank]

You know, you were talking about sort of struggling or asking yourself the question of, like, if poetry matters or why poetry matters. And I feel like that is something that is sort of addressed in, like, the first poem in this book, which is Anti Poetica.

[Rachel Kong]

Yes.

[Luke Burbank]

Can you read that for us?

[Rachel Kong]

Yeah, sure can. This is Anti Poetica. And Ars Poetica is like, something that's, like, about the art of poetry is the opposite. Cool. Antipoetica. There is no poem greater than feeding someone. There is no poem wiser than kindness. There is no poem more important than being good to children. There is no poem outside love's violent potential for cruelty. There is no poem that ends grief but nurses it toward light. There is no poem that isn't jealous of song or murals or wings. There is no poem free from money's ruin. No poem in the Capitol nor the court most policy rewords a devil's script. There is no poem in the law. There is no poem in the west. There is no poem in the north. Poems only live south of south. Something meaning beneath and darkened and hot. There is no poem in the winter, nor in whiteness, Nor are there poems in the landlord's name. No poem to admonish the state. No poem with a key to the locks. No poem to free you.

[Luke Burbank]

That is Danez Smith reading from their book Bluff here on Livewire. That's the first poem in the book. Was that the first poem you wrote for the book?

[Rachel Kong]

Heavens, no.

[Luke Burbank]

But you wanted to place that one at the beginning of this book Bluff, because you wanted to start that conversation for sure. For the beginning of the book.

[Rachel Kong]

Well, let's just get it out the way, right? Let's just say what poetry don't do. Right. Cause then poetry can then take the rest of the 130 some pages to do its thing. Right.

[Luke Burbank]

And also, I think it's like managing expectations.

[Rachel Kong]

It is. It's also like managing a marriage. Right. I've been saying that. It's sort of like somebody once told me when I got married that even if you're doing well, every seven years, go to couples therapy, Right. Just to check under the hood. Right. Just to, like, see if there's anything sneaking around. Right. Or even just to, like, be Able to talk lushly about how good it is, right? And so I've been a poet now for most of my life, since I was a wee little ninth grader, have I been purporting to be a poet in the world. And so it was time to, I think, like, brush up and, like, really exfoliate and do something with that relationship, right? To say that, like, what is the purpose? Right? And I don't make. I do make art for art's sake sometimes. I love writing poems about squirrels. Oh, my God, they're so fun. But also, if I'm gonna be writing this work that has real demands in the world, right? There's a line in the book that's something akin to, we wanted to stop being killed, and they thanked me for beauty. Talking about the poems, right? That when my career sort of took off, you know, the reason I'm sitting on this stage right now is because my poems became important to people after the murder of Mike Brown, after all these murders of black men and women across the country, right? And if the only thing I have to show for it is publication and acclaim, how whack is that? Like, I want my people to be free. I think we all deserve freedom, right? And so there are these real demands that I have for poetry. And I think coming out of 2020, I just had to brush up against that part of my artistry, right? That wanted to be satisfied by award, that wanted to be satisfied by comfort, that wanted to be satisfied by the fact that I can do this. But the reason I do this is because I believe that art is not sufficient, right? But it is one tool that I know how to use to put energy into people so that we can do something about this world where we all deserve to be seen as human. And we see that that is very much up to debate in a lot of different ways across our nation and across our world.

[Luke Burbank]

We're talking to Danez Smith here on Livewire. Their latest book of poetry is Bluff. We lost the poet Nikki Giovanni recently, and you posted a quote of hers on Instagram. And it's. It was. And I really hope no white person ever has cause to write about me because they never understand black love is black wealth. And they'll probably talk about my hard childhood and never understand that. All the while, I was quite happy.

[Rachel Kong]

Amen.

[Luke Burbank]

How do you take that into your work, to write about the real problems of our society without letting white people think that black joy is not a real thing?

[Rachel Kong]

I think they think it's a real thing. I think the problem is, hmm. You're never really fully. That's that not being seen as human bit that I'm talking about. Right. So what Nikki's talking about, I feel that. Right. Even in the way people talk about this book, there's a lot of love in this book. But I think there's a particular gaze that can look at it and only see what is anger and only see what is revolution and rebuttal and, you know, all this stuff. Right. But there's a lot of love sitting in the middle of that. Right. And when you're only able to see people in their anguish and not in the vastness of their humanity, which also includes joy. Right. That's the problem. I think at a certain point, you just can't worry about who's looking at it. It's art. Everybody's gonna look at it. And what I need to actually pay attention to is, like, when the people I want to pay attention to my art are looking at it and reading it, how do they feel? That's the only thing I need to privilege. Everybody else is gonna be able to eavesdrop and do what they wanna do with it. But I need to make sure that if I have this beloved audience, that they feel the power in the work. Right. And everybody else can misconstrue something because that's what people do. You know, people can't read. So I don't mean that to be, like, elitist. I just mean that they can't. And so. And I can't help that. Right. And so let me just do the work that I must do and, yeah, let the mistakes happen.

[Luke Burbank]

I'm kind of paraphrasing here, but in the book, you have a line about saying that the challenge with poetry is that you writing about your personal history. But the line between that and the history of, say, your people, not to be overly broad, is a very, very thin line. And that in order to tell your personal story, you have to tell a story of a larger group of folks. And have you encountered people in your own life who pushed back on being part of your story as published in your books?

[Rachel Kong]

Oh, yeah. There were some awkward Thanksgivings before. There's a poem in my last book called Waiting on youn to Die so I can be myself. Right.

[Luke Burbank]

I can't see how that would create any complicated feelings. Yeah.

[Rachel Kong]

And, you know, it's all about, like, you know, complicated queerness and family and love. Right. And one day my grandma looked at me and just said, so you want me to die? And I look back at her and I said, oh my God, no, no, no, no, Grandma, you know that's my girl. If you know anything about my girl. We're tight. That's my lady. And I said, no, I don't want you to die. But we had a turning point in our relationship where she had some homophobia that she would just not let go of and I think was just sort of releasing it rampantly. One day I was at her house cleaning out the. All of us were cleaning out her attic and she turns out of nowhere and says, if Danez gets married to a man, I'm not coming. And I walked out and I said, I love you so much and I'm the only grandchild you have that is gonna come over and move these boxes. And if you want that grandson, then you have to let go of that spirit. And we didn't talk for a little bit. And now she's back to be my lady. Right? And so I told her that day that no, I don't want you to die, but something in you had to die so that we could have a relationship. Yeah, sometimes poetry helps that way.

[Luke Burbank]

Can we hear another poem from the book? This one is kind of seems to be a bit of a bookend to the first one that we heard. This is. I was hoping you could read R's Poetica.

[Rachel Kong]

Yeah. And also just imagine like this first line. Like that was page one. This is 119. So there's been a lot of back and forth about what poetry can do in the world and who's gonna kill us and who we should kill and blah blah, blah a lot. And also like love and making love and grandparents. Okay, cool. Ars poetica. All that other. Even when the fog cleared the wrong sky off my mind, the horizon at the end of pity is a useless sun, hot headed and bitter born light, let the daughter rise when my earth meets the clouds. What her say? What next she believe in and nurse my big bad. For how long I spent making apologies for what I ain't do Caught myself sorry for bodies the nation caught in its borderless maw Caught myself washing blood off someone else's hands. I'm off that that being the mode that made a cage of guilt out my depression, that being what fault I fell into and dress into a lovely but ineffective grave. What I'm sorry for making poetry a house of rebuttals, A temple for the false gods of stagnant argument and dead end fields. Here in these lines, in these rooms I add my blues and my gospels to the record of Now I offer my scratch golds to the blueprint of possible. Dear reader, whenever you are reading, this is the future to me, which means tomorrow is still coming, which means today still lives, which means there is still time for beautiful, urgent change, which means there is still time to make more alive, which means there is still poetry. Cool.

[Luke Burbank]

Danez Smith, everyone. That was Danez Smith right here on Livewire. Their new book Bluff is available to read right now. This is Livewire. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. We've got to take a very quick break, but don't go anywhere. When we get back, we will talk to and listen to the singer songwriter Danelia Cotton talking about the work of Charley Pride. That's coming up here on Livewire. This is Livewire. All right, before we get to our musical guest, a little preview of what we are doing on the show. Next week, we are going to be talking to Kelsey McKinney. Kelsey is one of the writers and co owners of defector.com and also founded the podcast Normal Gossip. And it turns out Kelsey is still gossiping, y' all, because her new book is called you'd didn't hear this from Me. Mostly True Notes on Gossip. Kelsey is going to make, I think, the actually very cogent argument that gossip actually matters. It's not just a bad thing, but that it actually serves a purpose. We'll get into that. Plus, we're going to talk to the author and journalist Omar El Akkad, who will be discussing his critically acclaimed nonfiction debut. It's titled One Day. Everyone will have always been against this. It's been described as sort of a heartsick breakup letter with the west, which it is, but it's also a lot more than just that. Also, to round things out, we're gonna get some music from the Lullaby project. This is what they've been doing. They bring together professional, professional singer songwriters, and then they put them with parents who are experiencing homelessness and they collaborate on music that's intended to be listened to by the children of the parents. It is a really, really powerful thing and some very beautiful music being created by the Oregon Symphony as part of all of this. That's all happening next week on Livewire. You do not want to miss it. In the meantime, our musical guest this week is a powerhouse indie rocker who hails from Hopewell, New Jersey, where she was raised on a steady diet of AC dc, Led Zeppelin and the Rolling Stones. When she launched her career with the release of her first album, she was selected as an artist To Watch by WXPN in Philadelphia. Her latest project shows a whole other kind of side of her musical background. It's called Charlie's A Tribute to Black Country Music. It pays homage to the trailblazer Charley Pride, who was the first black American voted into the Country Music hall of Fame. While infusing the songs with a fresh, modern approach that is all her own. Danelia Cotton joined us at the Patricia Research center for the Arts in Beaverton, Oregon, to talk with us and play a song. Check it out. Hey, there. Welcome to Livewire.

[Danelia Cotton]

Thank you.

[Luke Burbank]

Thanks for traveling all the way out here to do this. We really appreciate it. Did I read correctly that this project started out with you finding a Charley Pride album that belonged to your 101-year-old grandmother?

[Danelia Cotton]

No, but she's 103, and she would kill you for those two years. It actually belonged to my grandfather, who's her husband, who's no longer with us. And he hid it under the bed because he was, like a closeted country fan. And she. When it all came out, she was like, it was my album, and he took it.

[Luke Burbank]

But I stand by my initial statement that this was your grandmother's record. Why was it the case that this was? When I was reading this interview with you talking about it, it was news to me that as a black person in America, at a certain point, to like country music was something that you might have to keep from the wider world.

[Danelia Cotton]

They moved to Hopewell in about, like, 1941, and it wasn't like black men were all over the country.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah.

[Danelia Cotton]

Giddy up, yo.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah.

[Danelia Cotton]

And he was a quiet man. And very much. I mean, the similarity between him and Charley Pride's story, he was just. He didn't think about Hopewell as a white town. He just saw 10 acres he wanted to buy and raise his kids. And, you know, I think Charley Pride didn't think, oh, this is a white genre. I just like this genre. So there's sort of in that way. And then they were both like, regal, quiet men and. Yeah. And they earned the respect. Charley Pride earned the respect in his genre. And my grandfather, everyone loved him. He was quite a person.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. How do you take your particular style of music and then take the music of Charley Pride and interpret it in a way that is yours, but still also honoring him?

[Danelia Cotton]

I think that's a good question, because I think a lot of artists that are going into country, I think. I don't think. I don't like when certain people say it should all be just one genre. I think There is value to all the genres being what they are. But I believe if you go into a genre, you have to tip your hat somewhat to what it is. You can't recreate it. I mean, you can, but. But it's not. I don't think it's the way to go in with respect.

[Luke Burbank]

I see.

[Danelia Cotton]

You know, and I think then you're not really doing country music. You have to, to some degree, put a little bit, you know, in there. So, yeah, I think that that's important. And it shows respect and honor for what you're, you know, where you're about to go.

[Luke Burbank]

We actually here at this very stage, we talked to the photographer Ivan McClellan some months ago about his beautiful book of photography taken at black rodeos. Obviously, Cowboy Carter. Beyonce's record has been this smash hit. Do you have any sense that the black country and black cowboy experience is starting to, at least in some small way, get its due?

[Danelia Cotton]

I do. I absolutely do. Like, I had done this project, but there she opened a door, and there's still. I mean, we still have to, as a race, that we're still fighting for equality, really, on all levels. And so every once in a while, when a door is open in some respect where we couldn't get in, as many of us try to run through as possible, because it will shut again. But I think that, you know, I have to give it to her. She opened that door wider, and then there were many that were there. Yeah, but they got the light, you know, shown on them at that point, so you can't. You know, a lot of people are like, ah, she done wouldn't do in their country, you know, I mean, her popularity and her stature allowed a whole bunch of people to be seen. I gotta give that to her.

[Danez Smith]

That's just.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, well, we're excited to hear some music. What song are we gonna hear?

[Danelia Cotton]

This is called Bring out the country and Me. And it's basically. It's the only original from the album. I wanted to put one on that was just mine. And it's basically when I moved to the city, I couldn't not be me. Like, I had grown up, you know, my other half was born and raised there. And so he was like, why are you. You don't wave to people. Like, look down. Like, it was difficult for me, but I stayed me. It actually made me more me. You're you. I'm like authentically Danelia, no matter where I am.

[Luke Burbank]

All right, it's Danilia Cotton here on Livewell.

[F]

Last stop to the shitty guitar in my head got a suitcase full of dreams I ain't got low plans Too many faces, too many places could almost lose who I am Everything's new fast right now I will trade concrete for blue grass oh, these big shifty lights Bring out the country and may say hello and goodbye to everyone that I'll see When I close my eyes I'll see that whole cherry tree country girl is all I'll ever be country girl is all I'll ever be I got a job, got a room got a walk up to flight at the end of the day hey, it's worth the prize yeah when something goes wrong I write a song Then the world feels so right Gonna make my mom proud Gonna sing it hot and loud oh no the fix it delight Bring out the country me Say hello and goodbye to everyone that I'll see When I close my eyes I'll see that old cherry tree country life is still a part of me country girl is o I'll never be lies Bring out the.

[Danez Smith]

Country.

[F]

Say hello and goodbye to everyone that I see see when I close my eyes I'll see that oh cherry tree country life is still a part of me Big yeah big city lines Bring out the country in me I say low and goodbye to everyone that I see When I I close my eyes I see that old cherry dream your country life is still a part of me and our country girl is high oh, oh, I'll never be.

[Luke Burbank]

Danelia Cotton, right here on Livewire. That was Danelia Cotton right here on Livewire performing the song from her new five track ep, Charlie's Pride, a tribute to black country music. And that is gonna do it for this week's episode of Livewire. A huge thanks to our guest. Thank you, Rachel Kahn, Danez Smith and Danelia Cotton.

[Elaina Passarello]

Laura Hadden is our executive producer, Heather D. Michelle is our executive director, and our producer and editor is Melanie Sevchenko. Eben Hoffer is our technical director, Leona Kinderman is our assistant technical director. Hazik Bin Ahmad Farid is our assistant editor and our house sound is by Nate Zwane Lesk and D. Neil Blake. Ashley park is our production fellow and Andrea Castro Martinez is our marketing associate.

[Luke Burbank]

Our house band is Sam Pinkerton, Sam Tucker, Ethan Fox, Tucker, Al Alves and A. Walker Spring, who also composes our music. This week's episode was mixed by Eben Hoffer and Hazik Bin Ahmad Farid.

[Elaina Passarello]

Additional funding provided by the Oregon Arts Commission, a state agency funded by the state of Oregon and the National Endowment for the Arts. Livewire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week we'd like to thank member Ken Edwards of Port Portland, Oregon. Also, very special thanks this week to Amanda Bullock Woo and the Portland Book Festival.

[Luke Burbank]

For more information about the show or how you can listen to our podcast, head ON over to livewireradio.org I'm Luke Burbank. For Elena Passarello and the whole Livewire crew, thank you for listening and we will see you next week. Dear Livewire, when we first met, I was really shy. I had no idea we'd spend so much time together or that you'd be one to fill my heart with joy and make me want to be a better person. Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know you were here. I was busy reading a review from one of our many, many rapturously smitten listeners. Oh wait. Actually, no. Sorry. This is from Elena. Anyway, the point is, it would be really helpful if you wanted to leave us a review. Feel free to say really nice things about us and we'll even read them now and then on the show so you might hear your review of Livewire. Read on the program itself. Reviews help other people hear about the show and then we can keep doing this for a long, long time because we love having this job. Thank you so much. If you've left a review and if you're about to leave a review, you can go ahead and do it right where you get the podcast.

[Elaina Passarello]

From PRX.