← Live Wire with Luke Burbank
Live Wire with Luke Burbank
Emily Nussbaum and Pink Martini (REBROADCAST)
00:52:29
This episode features writer Emily Nussbaum of The New Yorker and music from Pink Martini.
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- [00:03]
Luke Burbank
Hey there. Welcome to Livewire. I'm your host, Luke Burbank. This week on the show, New Yorker writer and TV critic Emily Nussbaum talks to us about her new book, Cue the the Invention of Reality tv, which traces the origin, evolution and impact of America's most beloved and also behated form of entertainment, reality television. And you might say our conversation gets a little heated because we are also going to debut a brand new segment here on Livewire this week called the Hot Seat. I promise it's not going to turn into sports radio talk. Then it's going to be time for our favorite little orchestra, as they call themselves, Pink Martini, who will be stopping by. We're going to talk to Thomas Lauderdale and China forbes about their 30 years of thrilling fans all over the world. Don't worry, we're also going to hear a song as well. Don't go anywhere. Big week for the show. And it all gets started right after this. Livewire is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally irresponsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. This episode of Livewire was originally recorded in September of 2024. We hope you enjoy it. Now let's get to the show.
- [01:32]
Elaina Passarello
From prx, it's Livewire this week. Writer Emily Nussbaum.
- [01:45]
Emily Nussbaum
I think a lot of the reason that people watch reality TV is to see that little nugget of somebody being authentically out of control, even if it's inside a lot of contrivance with music from Pink Martini.
- [01:57]
Thomas Lauderdale
So if it wasn't for, you know, the Oregon Citizens alliance and the Measure 13 campaign and P.B. herman's Christmas special, this band would not have existed.
- [02:07]
Elaina Passarello
So, and our fabulous house band, I'm your announcer, Elaina Passarello. And now the host of Livewire, Luke Burbank.
- [02:19]
Luke Burbank
Hey, thank you so much, Elaina Passarello. Thanks to everyone for tuning in to Livewire this week. We have a really, really fun show in store for you. We're gonna help Pink Martini celebrate 30 years of making music. That is coming up in a moment. First, though, of course, we gotta kick things off the way we always do with the best news we've heard all week. This is our little Livewire reminder that there is good news happening out there in the world. Alaina, what is the best news that you've heard all week?
- [02:51]
Elaina Passarello
Okay, I don't know if this is the best news, but this is definitely the. Made me laugh the hardest. All right, so it starts out a little scary, honestly. A couple of Sundays ago there was a family in Bedford, Ohio who realized it was about 9am that on a Sunday morning they realized they hadn't seen their 8 year old daughter in like 2 hours. And they searched the house for her, she was nowhere to be found. And then they checked the ring cam footage on their, their front door and they saw her get into the family car, which is a Nissan Rogue, very appropriately named. And then the kid was how old? 8 years old.
- [03:33]
Emily Nussbaum
What?
- [03:34]
Elaina Passarello
Drive away. So they call the police, obviously. And a little bit later the police get a phone call that there seems to be a very small child driving a white Nissan Rogue several miles away from the family house.
- [03:49]
Luke Burbank
I bet that's the same kid.
- [03:51]
Elaina Passarello
You think so? You know, I, I am the world's greatest driver. As you may have noticed, the one time that you rode in the car with me.
- [03:59]
Luke Burbank
It was noted, but the person who.
- [04:00]
Elaina Passarello
Called the police saying that there was a child on the road driving got a little footage. And I am a better driver than this eight year old.
- [04:08]
Luke Burbank
Okay.
- [04:08]
Elaina Passarello
Although it seemed like she was respecting the law of traffic lights, luckily she was swerving all over the road. But it was so early and it was a Sunday morning, there wasn't really anybody on the road. So now the hunt was on to figure out where this kid was going. And they found her at the closest target, which was 11 miles away. She made it all the way. It's like a 25 minute drive. She made it all the way to Target. They didn't report on like how she parked the car, which I'm kind of curious about, like did she back in, did she parallel park, you know, or was it just like sprawled across like series of of spaces? But they found her inside of the Target drinking a Frappuccino.
- [04:49]
Luke Burbank
Oh my God. Other than the fact that she's going to juvie, this describes basically probably her best life at eight years old.
- [04:56]
Elaina Passarello
Yeah. And you know, it just makes you wonder how often does that family go to Target, that that child has memorized the 11 mile journey to get there. And apparently when she got there, like the first thing she said was, I hit a mailbox.
- [05:11]
Luke Burbank
Does it say if she got in big trouble over this or was it just kind of like all's well that ends well?
- [05:16]
Elaina Passarello
The county police department released a really funny tweet about it and said, don't worry, we let her fin Her Frappuccino before we took her in. So other than the fact that she was uninjured and that she got to finish her drink, that's all the information we have.
- [05:29]
Luke Burbank
Would you believe, Elena, that my best news story also involves a missing child? And there's a happy ending as well.
- [05:37]
Elaina Passarello
A Frappuccino ending?
- [05:39]
Luke Burbank
No Frappuccino, but a happy ending. It involves a 10 year old in Shreveport, Louisiana, or at least near Shreveport, named Peyton Sanington. And Peyton apparently sleepwalks from time to time. Her family knows this, but usually they might just find her in some part of the house where she's, you know, not supposed to be at 3 in the morning. Well, recently there was a whole other thing that happened with her, which is she slept, walked right out of the house and into the woods. Oh my God, like late at night. And her family figured out that Peyton was nowhere to be found and started looking for her and could not find her in the middle of the night. Which is where a guy named Josh Klober comes in. He hears about this search that's going on for little Peyton. He's like 40 miles away, but he works for a drone company. So he drives the 40 miles to where they're looking for Peyton and he puts this drone up that has thermal sensing cameras on it.
- [06:41]
Elaina Passarello
Oh, yeah, right, yeah. Like they go to look for Wild Hogs with those things, right?
- [06:47]
Luke Burbank
And like I've actually seen video of this. I mean, it is absolutely remarkable. I mean, many human beings were out looking for Peyton without success. This drone is just cruising around and then just sees this little form of a 10 year old missing one of her shoes, who's just curled up sleeping on the ground, lying perfectly still. Peyton's best friend's dad was also out there searching for her and was the closest person to these coordinates. And he runs over to her and he scoops her up and she is surprisingly fine. She's just sleeping in the woods, she's camping, like the least worried about this of anyone. But anyway, it was just this amazing story and also like I would say a big win for the sort of PR department of drones, because honestly, they're kind of on my last nerve as a thing.
- [07:44]
Elaina Passarello
It's amazing too that that Gentleman was like 40 miles away, middle of the night, I'm on it. And like answered the call because he knew that he could help. That's fabulous news.
- [07:53]
Luke Burbank
You know, that's a really good point, Elena. This is not just a win for technology. This is a win for kind hearted people like Josh Klober. And hopefully we will continue to coexist peacefully with our technological overlords. I'd just like to get that out there right now. All right, kids. Being okay when for a moment we thought they weren't going to be okay is the best news that we heard all week. All right, let's get into the show. Our first guest is a staff writer at the New Yorker, where she started out as their TV critic back in 2011. By 2016, she'd won a Pulitzer for her writing. Before that, she was at New York Magazine, where she created this thing that if, you know, you know, it's called the approval matrix. It's amazing kind of way of categorizing things. We would put this person in highbrow. Brilliant. That's the quadrant she would be in. Her new book is Cue the the Invention of Reality tv, and it traces the origin, evolution, and impact of reality television. Emily Nussbaum joined us on stage at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon, to talk about the book. Take a listen, Emily, welcome to the show.
- [09:13]
Emily Nussbaum
I'm glad to be here.
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Luke Burbank
Okay. When I think about reality television, I feel like we are the only generation lame enough to have invented it. Like we are the only group that has ingested enough forever plastics to think this is a good idea. And yet that is not the case. This book starts in the 1940s. What are the origins of what we now think of as reality tv?
- [09:37]
Emily Nussbaum
Well, first of all, I've got to say I also thought of reality television as a modern art form that was created at the turn of the century in an enormous mistake that had to do with the Internet, modern narcissism. I mean, that's when I came up with the idea for the book. It was only after I started doing the research that I realized I had no idea what I was talking about. And actually, it started in the 40s with shows like Queen for a Day and Candid Microphone, which predated Candid Camera. And when I was.
- [10:07]
Luke Burbank
By the time I found out about Alan Funt, he was a very old man on television pulling, like, corny pranks. But that was not where things started for him.
- [10:16]
Emily Nussbaum
Yeah, things started on the radio. And actually his show was part of this boom in the 40s that people thought of not as reality, but as the audience participation trend. And everybody was horrified by it because they thought there's something really damning about what's happening to the culture. All of these cheap, tawdry shows that have regular people kind of spilling their guts on the air, being put under pressure. So there was all this stuff in the media. There was a big moral panic about it. And honestly, when I was reading those pieces from the 40s, they're pretty much identical to what happened when Survivor came out at the turn of the century. So the book ended up running from 1947 to around 2007. It starts with radio, it ends with the Apprentice, as did everything else.
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Luke Burbank
Yeah, right.
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Elaina Passarello
Wow.
- [11:06]
Luke Burbank
Just to put a fine point on all of our existence on this planet currently, let's talk about Queen for a Day a little bit. Because as I've been telling people about the book and about the origins of this audience participation or reality programming, I was truly shocked that the show was legal.
- [11:23]
Emily Nussbaum
Well, not only was it legal, it was probably the most popular audience participation show. It was a show that was essentially a contest, a sort of beauty contest over which woman had the ugliest life. So it was a panel of five women would be interviewed by the host, and they would tell terrible stories of poverty, being beaten by their husband, like sick children, really dark material. And then the audience, and it was a live audience just like this, and people would applaud. And there was a sort of clapometer that would measure who had the worst life. And that person was the Queen for a Day. And she would get a crown, a robe, a scepter, and then she'd be showered with gifts. And this started as a big radio hit, and then it became a huge TV hit when live television started. And it was a show that people looked down on, but that women really loved. Like, it was part of the. You can really trace Queen for a Day running through history, you know, even with shows like the Bachelor and stuff, that are real women's culture, that people also find simultaneously disgusting and misogynist. And also a real bonding group experience. And there are parts of Queen for a Day that actually, I do think are weirdly liberatory because nobody else on TV was talking about working class women's poverty experiences. You know, it was the age of Ozzie and Harriet.
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Luke Burbank
It seems like that's a theme that sort of runs through the book about reality television, which is, on the one hand, it's predatory. And oftentimes taking people's real lives or their real feelings and turning them into entertainment. But it also has a lot of very genius television making and storytelling. And innovation.
- [13:06]
Emily Nussbaum
Yeah, genuine innovation. I mean, there are parts of it that are very dark. I mean, reality TV and reality radio existed because it was cheap. They didn't want to pay writers and they didn't want to pay actors. So a lot of the reason for the shows was to create a strike breaker and something that you could just pour out content. But at the same time, under those conditions, they came up with all sorts of innovative stuff that's influenced everything in the culture. And I had to kind of define what reality TV was in the book, and I ended up calling it dirty documentary. And dirty documentary, to me was basically the fancy pants ideas of cinema verite kinds of work that people think of as just observing and collecting the truth and then cutting it like a drug with something that would speed it up, put pressure on people. And so you cut it with the soap opera, you cut it with the game show, with the prank show, you turn it into little clips like Cops. And that enables you to have this pressure be put on people over and over again. And from that, all of this stuff poured out, some of which I actually do admire. I mean, I could say a lot of negative things, but, you know, like, the Survivor format is kind of a masterpiece that I think people take for granted. And I didn't think this when I started writing the book, but by the end of writing it, I'd written two full chapters about that.
- [14:27]
Luke Burbank
So I want to talk a little bit more about Survivor in a moment. And also a less successful show, manhunt.
- [14:33]
China Forbes
Oh, my God.
- [14:34]
Luke Burbank
Well, we gotta take a quick break here on livewire. I love to see that kind of excitement from the guests. It's so rare. This is LIVEWIRE from prx. We're talking to New Yorker writer and critic Emily Nussbaum about her book Cue the the Invention of Reality tv. We have to take a very quick break, but don't go anywhere. We will be right back. Special thanks to our sponsor, Up Up Books, a Portland bookshop specializing in diverse authors, local writers, and independent presses. They're located across from Revolution hall in the Buckman neighborhood, and they offer a space for book clubs, workshops, and events. Check out their website and grab a book@upupbooks.com welcome back to Livewire from PRX. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. We're at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. We're talking to New Yorker writer and critic Emily Nussbaum about her new book, Cue the the Invention of Reality tv. You write pretty extensively in this book, actually about a kind of documentary series from PBS called An American Family, about the loud family. Where does that fit into this story?
- [16:12]
Emily Nussbaum
This is really my favorite chapter in the book, and I think this show should be much more widely known. When I Was talking about mixing documentary with things. That was the first real reality soap opera. But the truth is it was created as what was meant to be a highbrow documentary. It's just that when it came out, it was viewed and argued about as a reality show and it created the first reality stars. Basically it was about this well off family in California, the Louds. And in the course of the series, Pat Loud, who I talked to for the book, I interviewed all the living Louds and the people who made the show, the Raymonds. She went through divorce with her husband, she asked her husband for a divorce on camera. And the other big part of the show was her son lance loud, who's 19 year old gay, artistic guy living in the Chelsea Hotel in New York. And it was an absolute shock to have this material on TV for people to see a divorce happen in 1973 on television. To see a gay man who was not just openly gay, but like physically charismatic, flamboyant in a way that really got under people's skin. And the show was just explosive. Like every newspaper and magazine were filled with debates about what it meant to have people spill their guts in this way. And it turned the Louds into huge stars that a lot of people hated and put down because they were appearing so much in public. But a lot of people loved them too. And I do think that Lance Loud in particular is just this visionary figure. He was the first reality star to really understand that he was out in public and to use his charisma in a way that really violated old ideas about what was private and what was public.
- [17:55]
Luke Burbank
If you are my age, you can't talk about reality TV without speaking the sacred name of the real world, which was, you know, just the sort of video wallpaper to my life as a teenager in 20s and 30s and let's be honest, sometimes 40s person. But you interviewed John Murray, one of the creators, who actually was inspired by An American Family, among other things. Also the up series by Michael Apteg, which I've been obsessed with.
- [18:23]
Emily Nussbaum
Yes, absolutely. Those were the two inspirations for him to get into this whole idea of trying to mix documentary with other forms. But he was 17 and he wasn't out of the closet and he saw Lance Loud on tv. And I have to say, like several people that I interviewed, he saw Lance Loud and was like, what is going on? It was sort of a beacon drawing him to this material. And he and Mary Ellis Bunum created the real world for people who are not obsessive Gen X people. If you don't know. It was about seven strangers picked to live in a house to find out what happens when people stop being polite and start getting real.
- [18:57]
Luke Burbank
That's exactly what it is. Do you feel like the real world walked so that Roni could run? And by that, I mean, my generation was just raised on the real world, so the Real Housewives and things like that seem totally normal. Like there was this kind of substrate of reality TV watching that was laid so that these other shows then could come along and the people like me would be predisposed to buy into them.
- [19:20]
Emily Nussbaum
Well, I do think that that idea of performing your life as a soap opera that began with shows like An American Family and. And definitely much more with the real world. It shaped everybody who auditioned for those shows. I mean, the thing I always say about reality TV as opposed to other things, is that on a scripted show, you have writers, you have actors, they perform, and then people watch it. But a reality show is about a relationship between the people behind the camera and the people on it. But all you ever see is the residue. It's only people who work in the industry who really understand the secrets of how that's made.
- [19:54]
Luke Burbank
And that's like soft scripting.
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Emily Nussbaum
Yeah. This is sort of what's traced in the later part of the book is the growth of soft scripting, which is essentially where instead of setting up a circumstance that people are inside and on camera, you just say, why don't you guys go into the kitchen and have a fight? And then you walk out on the porch and throw a cup? And so they're improvising. But it's really a collaboration. And one of the things I point out in the book is that the faker a show is, the more ethical it is in a lot of ways, because when you're doing that, the people know they're doing fake drama. And some of the purer shows have the stronger moral problems with them because they're doing authentic things under pressure, and they're out of control. And I think a lot of the reason that people watch reality TV is to see that little nugget of somebody being authentically out of control, even if it's inside a lot of contrivance.
- [20:47]
Luke Burbank
This is Livewire from prx. We're talking to Emily Nussbaum about her new book, Cue the Sun, the Invention of Reality tv. Cue the sun is like the perfect name for this book. Can you explain the origin of that?
- [20:59]
Emily Nussbaum
It's the Truman Show. I don't know if people know the movie, but that movie is just a Masterpiece. I just rewatched it. And, you know, it's funny because the movie, which is about Truman, who's raised essentially in what's a global hit reality show, was made before Survivor and the big boom at the turn of the century. And it's so prescient and really not just about reality television, but about the entire culture. And it's a broader kind of existential movie. But the reason I chose it for the title is that it's really about the relationship between the star and the creator and this tense, dynamic, unpleasant, manipulative, but also very tender and complex and intimate relationship. And that's a lot of what I was trying to write about, was trying to help people, both who hate these shows and people who love these shows, to understand not just where they came from, but how they're made. Because I think the more people understand the nature of this craft and the community of people who make these shows, the better that they can see these shows with clear eyes. And I mean that in both a critical and a celebratory way. You don't really understand what these shows are unless you understand how they're made.
- [22:11]
Luke Burbank
You mentioned the sort of boom and bust cycle of reality television. And it'll get written off, and they'll say, we're never gonna make these again. And then someone will make one that's a big hit. And there's all these kind of remoras that are latching onto the big animal that's making all the money that would be Survivor. And then in the wake of Survivor, there are all these other shows, including one called Manhunt.
- [22:33]
Emily Nussbaum
Yes. This is. You know, it's funny because nobody, I'm sure, has ever heard of the show. I became so obsessed with it during my research that I reached out to pretty much everyone I could who was involved. And it was a Survivor ripoff that was supposed to have. It had John Cena in it as one of many, like a bunch of bounty hunters on an island. And literally everything that could go wrong with a show during this reality boom went wrong with this show. It's the most hilarious, nightmarish scenario for the creators of the show. But one of the main things that happened was that they put the cast members in this hotel, and then there was a big delay in production, and they also had to, because of budgetary reasons, cut them the pot in half.
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Luke Burbank
That the prize that they was gonna.
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Emily Nussbaum
Win, the prize that they were gonna win. So they had told them that it was gonna be cut in half. In the meanwhile, they had all Bonded with one another and fallen really in love. They were all these young, athletic people. I talked to one of them who was on the show and then one night they were sitting around drinking and they said, why don't we just conspire against the show? We'll just. Why don't we just split the money? We're very close. So I think of this as the single successful attempt to unionize in reality television. There are a lot of other things that went wrong with the show, but I have to say everyone thought John Cena was excellent. He was very, very in character as a bounty hunter.
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Luke Burbank
The cream rises to the top.
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Emily Nussbaum
Yeah. Anyway, I found this story a lot more interesting than a lot of successful shows. The disaster is more fascinating.
- [24:01]
Luke Burbank
I'm wondering if you think that reality TV as we think about it will continue to exist into the long future when there's so much other stuff now that I think is kind of scratching that itch like on TikTok, you know, entitled Karen Gets Owned and the self checkout at Target or whatever. Like, is that reality TV just in very small doses and might that push out this more produced stuff?
- [24:25]
Emily Nussbaum
Yeah, I think the biggest thing that has changed during the later period. I mean, the whole thing has to do with technology, but it also has to do with the fact that during the period that I write about, there were famous people and non famous people and then there was this shocking set of non famous people who unaccountably became famous. That's not true anymore. There's this huge continuum because of online fame and everybody has access to the technology and so lots of ordinary people have followers online and there's this whole middle ground. And so, yeah, I think a lot of the things on TikTok and on Instagram and influencers and people sort of branding themselves they are their own reality producers. And I think people do find that just as entertaining. But I don't think the industry is going anywhere. I really think these shows have a major following and again, you just. It's because they're non unionized and inexpensive to make. So even when they're flops, they're kind of worth making for the industry. I mean, I'm not good at predicting the future, but I don't think the genre is going to go anywhere.
- [25:28]
Luke Burbank
This is Livewire Radio. We are talking to Emily Nussbaum about her new book, Cue the Sun. Okay. And we're gonna try something new on the show this week. We are gonna let our guest ask us any question on their mind and we have to answer it. This is the hot seat brought to you by secret aardvark Hot Sauce. So, all right, this is your chance. Now, we've peppered you with so many questions. Ask us any question on your mind.
- [26:03]
Emily Nussbaum
So the question is, you are desperate to get onto a reality show. What do you do in terms of auditioning or presenting yourself to the producers in order to convince them that you're the kind of person who would be a breakout character, they have to cast you?
- [26:18]
Luke Burbank
I would argue with every single person I encountered at the casting so that I would be identified as the drama, you know, as the Johnny Drama, as the Puck from the real world, as the whomever. Pick your heel. But, like, I would. It would start with the person I was checking in with, and then it would go to the casting director, and then it'd be the other auditioners. I would just be a nightmare. And they would be like, all right, well, if we need someone to stir the. That's our dude.
- [26:48]
Elaina Passarello
That's pretty good.
- [26:49]
Luke Burbank
Thank you.
- [26:49]
Elaina Passarello
I think I'm imagining a reality show where you would have to be interviewed at some point, and that would be filmed like American Idol or something like that. And I would just. Without bringing any attention to it, I would just answer all the questions or sing my song while I shaved my head completely bald.
- [27:04]
Luke Burbank
Wow.
- [27:05]
Elaina Passarello
Right?
- [27:06]
Luke Burbank
I mean, that's a limited time offer. Yeah, you only get that. You only play that card once, but what a memory. All right, Emily Nussbaum, thank you so much for putting us on the hot seat. That was Emily Nussbaum Baum talking about her book, Cue the the Invention of Reality tv. It is available right now, and it is a must read if, like me, you watch too much reality tv, probably. Hey, special thanks. This episode of Livewire to Joe Burdick of Portland, Oregon, and Paul Rifalo of Oregon City, Oregon. Paul and Joe are part of the Livewire member community, and they are generously supporting our show with a donation each month. And we are so thankful for that support because it's how we can actually keep Livewire going. So a big thanks to Joe and Paul for keeping us in business. This is Livewire, of course. Each week, we like to ask our Livewire audience a question inspired by the topic of Emily Nussbaum's book, Cue the the Invention of Reality tv. We asked the listeners a related question. Elena, what did we ask, folks?
- [28:29]
Elaina Passarello
We asked, what reality show doesn't exist, but you wish that it did?
- [28:35]
Luke Burbank
Okay, this is a great topic, a great question, and we're trying something new here on Livewire. This week, we actually went out and we had our editor, Melanie Savchenko, ask attendees of the Livewire live show at the Alberta Rose Theater this question. And we have some of those answers, and I want to play them for you right now, starting with Charles. This is the reality TV show that Charles says he would like to see that does not currently exist. Honestly, I think the best reality TV show that doesn't exist is Drunk Public Defenders after Work. That makes me think that Charles is a public defender who sometimes gets drunk after work with his colleagues, and while he's in that moment, thinks this could.
- [29:26]
Elaina Passarello
Be a show, it sounds more to me like a scripted show that's like the. An adaptation of Friends. You know how in Friends they would go drink coffee?
- [29:34]
Luke Burbank
Central Park.
- [29:35]
Elaina Passarello
Yeah. It would just be like, public defender watering hole.
- [29:40]
Luke Burbank
Yeah. Like Cheers meets Friends meets Boston.
- [29:43]
Elaina Passarello
Right.
- [29:45]
Luke Burbank
I would watch that show, by the way. I would absolutely watch that show.
- [29:48]
Elaina Passarello
Yeah, we'll get you a development deal for that one.
- [29:50]
Luke Burbank
All right, Here is a Marian's response. An actual audience member at our recent live show in Portland of a reality TV show that doesn't exist, but maybe.
- [29:59]
Emily Nussbaum
Should academics on motorbikes. And I mean, since it's a reality show, I guess they're sent somewhere on their motorbikes to do a big trip. Put a bunch of academics who don't.
- [30:11]
Elaina Passarello
Know what they're doing on bikes.
- [30:12]
Luke Burbank
Elena, you are an academic. What do you make of that?
- [30:15]
Elaina Passarello
I don't know. I'm barely an academic because I teach creative writing. But one of my colleagues, and he's a big fan of the show, he got on a motorbike for his academic sabbatical and drove it all the way down to, like, the tip of South America. But that doesn't necessarily sound like the vision here of this show. This would be somebody like. Like a professor of sociology who can't ride a bicycle.
- [30:37]
Luke Burbank
Yeah. The implication seems to be that the academic would be unsteady on the motorcycle and being going on a mission. That was hard for him. Remember that Japanese show that got really popular where people would send their children to the grocery store?
- [30:49]
Elaina Passarello
Yeah.
- [30:49]
Luke Burbank
Like, this is that. But with academics on a Harley.
- [30:53]
Elaina Passarello
I mean, honestly, sending a certain brand of academic to the grocery store on their own would also be pretty good tv.
- [31:01]
Luke Burbank
You get to say it because you live in academia.
- [31:04]
Elaina Passarello
However.
- [31:07]
Luke Burbank
One last one here from Mark. This is a reality television show that Mark, who came to a recent live show, wishes existed. So a reality TV show where it's just like, videos of the doggy daycare and then Voiceovers by people saying what the dogs are thinking.
- [31:27]
Elaina Passarello
Yeah, 10 out of 10.
- [31:28]
Luke Burbank
I mean, I would say if that. Yeah. No notes. And if that doesn't exist, it really should. And Mark, I can't believe you gave that away to the Livewire listeners. Like, that's a billion dollar idea.
- [31:39]
Elaina Passarello
You get people like Jenny Slate or Nick Offerman or Snoop Dogg to do the voiceovers. That's gold. That's total gold. I just hope those dogs don't turn into divas once they become reality TV stars.
- [31:52]
Luke Burbank
They have a rider. There's like no, you know, green M&Ms.
- [31:56]
Elaina Passarello
They get extensions and plastic surgery.
- [31:58]
Emily Nussbaum
Yeah, that's right.
- [32:00]
Luke Burbank
Leave that to the housewives. Fido. All right, thank you to everyone who was brave and stepped up to the microphone for our audience question. A lot was going on at the Alberta Rose Theater, let me tell you recently when those questions were being answered, because we also had a very special guest with us, a group of folks who are nothing short of legendary. That is a word that gets kind of overused, but in this case, it's very much deserved. They were founded in Portland in 1994 and they are now entering their 30th year being together. They've sold over 3 million albums. They've played some of the biggest stages in the world, including the Hollywood bowl, the Kennedy center, the Sydney Opera House. And now they can add the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon to that list because they were nice enough to stop by Livewire and talk about their incredible career as a band. This is Pink Martini on Livewire. Take a listen. Thomas Lauderdale and China Forbes, thank you so much for being on Livewire.
- [32:56]
China Forbes
Thank you.
- [33:05]
Luke Burbank
I've been following you all on Instagram and your travels around the world and the country and all the fun stuff that you've been doing. Congratulations on 30 years, by the way. That's phenomenal. Maybe this is a well known story, Thomas, about the origin of pink martini, but it was news to me. Is it true that you started this project because you felt like the music at political fundraisers was dull?
- [33:35]
Thomas Lauderdale
Sort of, yes. In 1994, I had just moved back from college and I went to college together and I moved back to Portland thinking that I was going to go into politics. And so I was working on various political campaigns. And in 1994, there was a very nasty attempt to amend the Oregon Constitution to declare. To declare homosexuality illegal in the state of Oregon. It was a group called the Oregon Citizens Alliance. And so I was working on the campaign in opposition to this. I had just seen pee Wee Herman's Christmas Special. And in that Christmas special, you have every guest star imaginable in 45 minutes. Grace Jones, Zsa Zsa Gabor, Dinah Shore, Oprah Winfrey, Whoopi Goldberg, Magic Johnson, Little Richard, Cher, Charo, K D, Language, Annette Funicello, Joan Rivers, Frankie Avalon and the del Rubio Triplets. Three gals, three guitar, three gals, three guitars. They literally were triplets. They were somewhere between 70 and 80 years old. They lived in a triple wide mobile home in San Pedro, California. And they wore matching miniskirts, booties, they had huge hair, they were super Catholic, yet pro gay. And they played guitar and they would sing covers of covers of Walk like an Egyptian by the Bengals and Whip it by Devo. And so I brought them to town to do a series of concerts for a whole week in nursing homes, hospitals, retirement homes and Rotary meetings. And at the end of their set, they would very sweetly say, please vote no on measure 13. At the end of the week, we had a community wide concert at Cinema 21 and Satan's pilgrims opened. But I also wanted another opening act. So I threw on a cocktail dress, a Betsy Johnson cocktail dress, and I started Pink Martini. That's how it started. So if it wasn't for the Oregon Citizens alliance and the Measure 13 campaign and pee Wee Hermit's Christmas special, this band would not have existed. So. So we kind of became a house band for political fundraising. So we did benefits for affordable housing, the library, Oregon Public Broadcasting, cleaning up the Willamette river, things like that.
- [35:50]
Luke Burbank
And then China. You and Thomas knew each other from school. I'm curious. What did you think you were getting into? What were you signing up for with Thomas in this project?
- [35:59]
China Forbes
I had no idea what I was signing up for, but we had worked together in college on musical theater and musical collaborations. And Thomas was the Julie McCoy Cruise Director of our dorm. So he threw all the parties. So I knew I was getting into something fun.
- [36:18]
Thomas Lauderdale
But you barely knew where Oregon was.
- [36:20]
China Forbes
I didn't really know where Portland was.
- [36:21]
Thomas Lauderdale
Yeah, she was living in New York City. She's very much east coast person.
- [36:25]
China Forbes
Yeah, but he called me. He was. So it was an emergency because he needed a singer for these very big shows the band was doing. It was Moda center opening, or it was the Rose Quarter at the time. And a wedding.
- [36:39]
Thomas Lauderdale
Two weddings, right?
- [36:40]
China Forbes
Yes, two Weddings and Birbati's Pan Club Night and so all of this stuff. And so he persuaded me by offering me a lot of cash that he didn't have. And then he sent me a FedEx with the music and a cassette tape from one of their shows so I could learn the songs on the plane.
- [37:03]
Luke Burbank
Wow.
- [37:04]
China Forbes
And I came here and did all of that.
- [37:14]
Luke Burbank
What were the aspirations? I mean, you know, did either of you imagine this is something that could go on for 30 years, even as it was initially a success?
- [37:22]
China Forbes
No. I mean, not at all.
- [37:23]
Thomas Lauderdale
Not at all.
- [37:24]
China Forbes
When we started recording our first album, I thought, this is premature. Why are we recording an album? We just barely started playing. But Thomas had this vision for the album and singing in different languages, and it just was. He was ahead of all the curves. And I just wanted to continue on.
- [37:43]
Thomas Lauderdale
Kind of create music that I wanted to hear myself. But it's the, you know, we're going the opposite direction of pop culture, really. It's sort of old fashioned.
- [37:52]
Luke Burbank
But you released your first album, you released on your own label, Heinz, which was named for your dog. Yes, I'd read. Yep. Great dog name, by the way. Did. Was that because you were. You were aware that you wanted to have all the rights to this and be able to do, or was it because there was a lack of interest?
- [38:09]
Thomas Lauderdale
Well, I mean, nobody would have, you know, no record label would have ever.
- [38:14]
Luke Burbank
Like, signed you at that moment.
- [38:15]
Thomas Lauderdale
Not at all. But I also thought that I just wanted to remain in charge of everything. It was the difference between making like 25 cents a record versus $6. And since the band members shared in the profits of that, it made a whole bunch of sense to do things that way. Strangely, or not surprisingly, various labels called us sort of after the release of the first album. And we met with a bunch of people and they all sort of said the same thing. You're the art and we want to support your work. And I just said. The one company that I thought was interesting was Mammoth Records. Jay Ferris, who had released Squirrel on Zippers. And they were really the hot band then. And I really liked him because he didn't talk about sort of record stuff. He talked about art and other things. And I remember saying to him, I just don't want to wake up one day and be owned by Disney. And in fact, two years later, Disney bought Mammoth Records.
- [39:13]
Luke Burbank
Oh, wow.
- [39:14]
Thomas Lauderdale
So, you know, it's. Everybody in the band has been able to buy a house. We're all, you know, back then it was. Houses were much cheaper. In the 90s, Portland was really Podunk and it didn't care. It was sort of like the calling card was like Gus Van Sant and his films and the kind of people that moved here to Portland, you Know, certainly the cheapest city on the west coast by far. You know, you've got San Francisco, which is too beautiful. Seattle, which is trying so hard to be cosmopolitan. And then Los Angeles is only good if you don't want anything.
- [39:46]
Luke Burbank
And then they've just been canceled from three cities. And then we're still strong here in.
- [39:51]
Thomas Lauderdale
Portland, you had little podunk Portland that, you know, we had strip clubs, and that's, you know.
- [39:57]
Luke Burbank
Yeah, vegan strip clubs at that. I mean, that's the. That's when you know you're in special place.
- [40:02]
Thomas Lauderdale
And there was such a collaborative spirit in the. The 90s because things were so cheap. You could be very creative.
- [40:09]
Luke Burbank
I was reading an interview with you, China, and I've never seen this word used this way, but it said, like, despite the fact that you're monolingual, you sing in all these other languages. When you sing, they were like, it's just English for the speaking, but it's everything else for the singing. And I know you get asked about this a lot, but I'm just curious what that process is like for you, or do you just have a natural ability to sing in other languages and really be comfortable in other languages?
- [40:34]
China Forbes
I think it's a combination of some ability and some brazenness. I studied French and Italian, so I don't speak fluently, but I know how to pronounce those languages. And I think just being a musician and having an ear for music, it helps with the ear for all the different nuances of different accents and different languages. So. Yes.
- [40:58]
Luke Burbank
Is there a particular language that's especially challenging for you? Are you, like, can we not do this one, maybe in that. Yes.
- [41:05]
Elaina Passarello
Yes.
- [41:05]
China Forbes
I would say Thai and Arabic have sounds that I can't really make correctly. It just isn't possible because I didn't, you know, form those sounds as a child. So I do my best to approximate them, and I do have to sing in them quite frequently.
- [41:26]
Emily Nussbaum
Wow.
- [41:27]
Luke Burbank
We're talking to Thomas Lauderdale and China Forbes from Pink Martini here on Livewire. This week, they're celebrating 30 years as a musical collaboration. I was watching this performance that you did with Gagoosh in Paris. What I enjoyed about it, Thomas, and what I enjoy about a lot of your shows is that it's both musical and also you give a lot of information, a lot of, like, music history or the history of the performers or the song. I'm wondering, is that a big part of your preparation? Do you see yourself as sort of bandleader, musician, and musicologist in a way?
- [42:00]
Thomas Lauderdale
I mean, I Think, yes.
- [42:03]
China Forbes
You're a musical archaeologist.
- [42:05]
Thomas Lauderdale
I mean, I love. We've been very lucky to be able to collaborate with people like Gagoosh. We're working on a whole album with her right now. Gagoosh is the. Maybe the biggest singer from all time from Iran. And she grew up on Iranian television in the 50s, 60s, and 70s and is sort of the equivalent of Taylor Swift. I guess you'd be the Taylor Swift of her day in Iran. And then in 1979, with the revolution, she didn't leave, she stayed. But because she's a woman, she can't sing. So nobody really. She was under house arrest and nobody heard from her for 21 years. Then in 2000, she somehow left the country, went to Canada, had a huge comeback, now lives in Los Angeles. And she is sort of like, you know, in the way that Edith Piaf is the voice of France or Maria Tanasse is the voice of Romania. Gugush is the voice of Iran. And so we're working on an album, which is her early songs that she hasn't sung since the 60s.
- [43:05]
Elaina Passarello
Amazing. Wow.
- [43:07]
Luke Burbank
Yeah. And you do have you collaborate with so many different amazing musicians and people. I'm wondering, how do you find them? How do you. Because it's a sort of a merry band of folks in the phone book. Oh, really?
- [43:20]
China Forbes
He also finds them when he's looking for cigarettes in Paris and they get out of a taxi, which is how he found Henri Salvador, who's like the Nat King Cole of France. And we covered one of his songs, and Thomas thought, I would love to collaborate with him. How do I find him? And we were standing on a street corner in Paris, having gone looking for Thomas's cigarettes that are clove cigarettes and hard to find. And a taxi. We hailed a taxi and it stopped, and out came Henri Salvador.
- [43:49]
Luke Burbank
Oh.
- [43:50]
China Forbes
And the next thing you know, he's on stage at the Hollywood bowl with us.
- [43:55]
Luke Burbank
That is amazing.
- [43:58]
Thomas Lauderdale
It pays to smoke everybody.
- [44:02]
Luke Burbank
You heard it here on Livewire. This is Livewire. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. You are listening to a conversation we recorded with Thomas Lauderdale and China Forbes of Pink Martini. Now, we've got to take a very quick break, but don't go anywhere. When we come back, Thomas, Chyna, and the rest of Pink Martini will play us a tune. So don't go anywhere. Welcome back to Livewire from prx. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. Okay, before we get back to Pink Martini, a little preview of next week's Show. We are going to be talking to the actor and filmmaker and legend Bruce Campbell about his latest project and also why it's really hard to work with actors who also happen to be horses. Plus, we'll get stand up comedy from Sarah Schaefer and we got some music from Seattle based singer, songwriter, Emmy Pop. That's all next week on the show. As far as this week goes, let's check in for a little station location identification examination. This is where we quiz our esteemed announcer, Elena Passarello, one time second place Jeopardy. Finisher about a place in the US where LiveWire is on the radio and you all get to play along at home. Elena, are you ready to play?
- [45:27]
Elaina Passarello
Oh, yeah. Let's do it.
- [45:29]
Luke Burbank
Okay. What's your Louis L'Amour awareness?
- [45:33]
Elaina Passarello
I know that Louis L'Amour and I have the same birthday, March 22nd.
- [45:38]
Luke Burbank
Some awareness.
- [45:40]
Elaina Passarello
My stepfather used to read his novels and I think they're all set in the West.
- [45:44]
Luke Burbank
Okay, good. You're on the right side of the Mississippi for this. This city where Livewire is on the radio is a key location in the Louis L'Amour novel Flint. But it's referred to by its historic name, which is Los Alamitos.
- [45:57]
Elaina Passarello
Hmm, that sounds southwestern.
- [46:00]
Luke Burbank
Mm, yes, good. You're in the right region. How about this? Throughout history, this place has been known for all sorts of things. Railroad, logging, carrots, a uranium mining boom. But now it is maybe best known by tourists for its natural beauty.
- [46:16]
Elaina Passarello
Is it Taos, New Mexico?
- [46:18]
Luke Burbank
It is in New Mexico. And it's also monosyllabic. First name, last name of a president whose first name was Ulysses Grant. Grant's New Mexico, where we're on Kids fm. You got it. I don't know how you get these, Diana.
- [46:38]
Elaina Passarello
I get it.
- [46:39]
Luke Burbank
Giving it to you. Shout out to everyone tuning in on Kids fm. All right, let's get to the music. Now, as you remember, we were chatting with Thomas Lauderdale and China Forbes from Pink Martini just a minute ago, and about how they basically started this musical project that's just been incredibly successful kind of as a result of Pee Wee Herman's Christmas Special. But now they're playing like, the Hollywood bowl. All these other amazing places, including the Alberta Rose Theater. Well, that is where they joined us. So let's get back to that now. And let's hear a song. Okay, this is Pink Martini performing live on Livewire here from Portland, Oregon.
- [47:21]
Thomas Lauderdale
So this is a song that we wrote with Alba Clemente and Johnny, Danielle, friends from New York City. And we, you know, we decided to write it in Italian, una notia napoli. Part of the lyrics translate to One night in Naples with the moon and the sea I met an angel who could no longer fly but even without wings he took me to the sky.
- [48:30]
Emily Nussbaum
Chiole.
- [49:21]
Elaina Passarello
J?
- [49:47]
China Forbes
Sato mia abandonato sulatera son tornata maipo edurato quanteno.
- [51:47]
Luke Burbank
That was Pink Martini right here on Livewire. They will be touring the US and the world, so go to their website to find out when they will be in a city near you. That's going to do it for this week's episode of Livewire, a huge thanks to our guests Emily Nussbaum and Pink Martini.
- [52:09]
Elaina Passarello
Laura Haddon is our executive producer, Heather D. Michelle is our executive director, and our producer and editor is Melanie Sevchenko. Eben Hoffer is our technical director, Leona Kinderman is our assistant technical director, and our house sound is by Dee Neal Blake, Ashley park is our production fellow, and Becky Phillips and Andrea Castro Martinez are our interns. Our house band is Sam Pinkerton, Ethan Fox, Tucker, Al Alves and A. Walker Spring, who also composes our music. This episode was mixed by Eben Hoffer. Special thanks this episode to William Tennant and Chris Bright.
- [52:41]
Luke Burbank
Additional funding provided by the James F. And Marion L. Miller Foundation. Livewire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week we'd like to thank members Joe Burdick of Portland, Oregon and Paul Rafalo of Oregon City, Oregon. For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast, visit livewireradio.org I'm Luke Burbank. For Elena Passarello and the whole Livewire crew. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week. Dear Livewire, when we first met, I was really shy. I had no idea we'd spend so much time together or that you'd be one to fill my heart with, with joy and make me want to be a better person. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know you were here. I was busy reading a review from one of our many, many rapturously smitten listeners. Oh, wait. Actually, no. Sorry. This is from Elena. Anyway, the point is, it would be really helpful if you wanted to leave us a review. Feel free to say really nice things about us and we'll even read them now and then on the show so you might hear your review of Livewire read on the program itself. Reviews help other people hear about the show, and then we can keep doing this for a long, a long, long time because we love having this job. Thank you so much. If you've left a review. And if you're about to leave a review, you can go ahead and do it right. Where you get the podcast from prx.