Live Wire with Luke Burbank
PRX
Episode: George Saunders and Samantha Crain (REBROADCAST)
Original Recording: November 2022 | Rebroadcast: January 2, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode features celebrated author George Saunders and acclaimed singer-songwriter Samantha Crain. Host Luke Burbank explores Saunders’ creative process—balancing teaching and writing, story development, and his perspective on happiness and empathy in fiction. Later, Samantha Crain discusses her Choctaw heritage, creative evolution, and performs her soulful music. Interspersed: uplifting news, audience reflections on transformative teachers, and live audience Q&A at the Portland Book Festival.

Main Guests

• George Saunders: Booker Prize-winning author; known for Lincoln in the Bardo and Liberation Day. Professor at Syracuse University’s writing program.
• Samantha Crain: Oklahoma-based singer-songwriter, two-time Native American Music Award winner, known for her genre-defying "y'alternative" style.

Key Segments & Insights

1. Good News of the Week (04:12 – 10:28)

With: Luke Burbank & Elena Passarello

• Greenville, SC Charity Sandwich Event (05:00)

  • 200 volunteers made 10,000 pimento cheese & bacon sandwiches (with Duke’s Mayonnaise) for local food banks—honoring Eugenia Duke and the product's centennial.
  • Notable Quote:
    “She had a woman-owned business in the 1920s.” —Elena Passarello (06:54)
  • Pimento Cheese Recipe shared for inspired listeners.

• Lake Elmo Library’s 47-year Overdue Book (08:28)

  • Anonymous return of a 1975 car manual with a note and money for a new book. The library has a no-fine policy, promoting accessibility.
  • Quote:
    “Let’s not create any impediments to people borrowing books from the library.” —Luke Burbank (09:36)

2. Interview: George Saunders (11:26 – 34:18)

Creative Process & Story Development

• Short Stories as a Default

  • Saunders doesn’t set out to write a book; stories accumulate naturally.
    “You start seeing them add up... if I just use a bigger font, we’re pretty much there.” —Saunders (11:36)

• Avoiding “Big Ideas” (12:17)

  • Prefers starting without a thematic concept, quoting Einstein:
    “No worthy problem is ever solved in the plane of its original conception.” —Saunders (12:37)
  • Compares writing to being “a little bit happily, openly confused,” inviting the reader to join the journey.

• Revision & Reader Experience

  • Uses an “imaginary meter” to decide when to clarify or reveal details. The key: keep the reader “pleasurably lost.”
    “You’re kind of reading it, trying to be a first-time reader, and you’re watching that meter.” —Saunders (15:16)
  • Describes withholding information to maintain narrative naturalism.

Themes: Death, Empathy, and Life Experience

• Death as a Central Topic (17:37)

  • Has been “death-obsessed” since childhood; sees the role of literature as grappling with love and loss.
  • “How do you make a functional life out of that dichotomy?” —Saunders (17:54)

• Teaching & Students

  • Finds teaching at Syracuse “anti-cynicism,” keeps him inspired by fresh talent.
  • “It’s really a lovely life of teaching.” —Saunders (18:50)

• Grounded Perspective

  • Reflects on his blue-collar past and how it shapes his fiction’s empathy and realism.
  • “In fiction... you reach out to someone and say, I know it’s hard. Or if it’s not hard now, I know it’s going to get hard.” —Saunders (21:46)

On Happy Endings and Hope

• Relays audience question (from Peter Sagal):
  “Do you think there’s something wrong with ending a story in a happy way?”
  “No... but only if it’s earned. If you have to falsify to make it happy, that’s the worst kind of darkness.” —Saunders (23:59)
• Affirms that true, earned honesty in storytelling uplifts—even with sad endings.

Modern Anxieties & the Role of Hope

• About societal collapse and optimism:
  “People who still believe in hope and love... have a lot of energy. A system based on fear... won’t last. As a lifetime progressive, somewhat left of Gandhi, I think it’s an important moment... not to despair.” —Saunders (25:45)

3. MFA AMA: Live Audience Q&A with George Saunders (27:41 – 34:18)

Notable Questions & Saunders’ Advice

• Best Non-Writing Activity for Writers?
  “Reading. Really. That’s it.” (28:10)
• Evaluating Story Ideas
  “If it comes to you without a lot of attachment... and you feel interested, then it’s a good idea. Wait for it to come out of the plane of its original conception.” (29:08)
• On “Losing the Magic” (Tobias Wolff’s advice)
  “The magic just means you’re writing in a way about which you have strong opinions—not intellectual, but visceral.” (31:12)
  • Anecdote: Saunders tried to force seriousness, suppressing humor, and learned eventually to honor his authentic style.
• Maintaining Fun & Authenticity in Revision
  • “If writing isn’t fun... Even if it’s very serious, it should still be fun to do it.” (33:12)
  • On writing darker material:
    “No actual humans are harmed... it’s all a game.” (33:47)

4. Audience Stories: Teachers Who Changed Lives (35:31 – 38:07)

Listeners share moments when a teacher's words had lasting impact—ranging from blunt warnings ("You play stupid games, you win stupid prizes."), to encouragement about college, to cultivating empathy and including others. The hosts reflect on their own school experiences and the vital role of supportive teachers.

5. Interview & Performance: Samantha Crain (39:05 – 52:46)

Background & Artistic Intention

• Performing in Choctaw (41:03)

  • Crain integrates her heritage language into contemporary songwriting:
    “There’s young Indigenous people that want to utilize the language in their own creation... I’m a songwriter, I’m Choctaw, so this is my job.” —Samantha Crain (40:14)

• Kennedy Center & Kelly Clarkson Twitter Story

  • Lightheartedly recounts tweeting at Kelly Clarkson (while tipsy) during American Indian Heritage Month, aiming to perform a Choctaw song on national TV. (41:07)
  • “I was drunk the other night... I tweeted at Kelly Clarkson, saying you should have me on your show...” —Crain (41:07)

• Music in Reservation Dogs

  • Discusses friendship with creator Sterlin Harjo, her music’s inclusion in the hit series, and the resonance of its humor and specificity.
  • “The amount of pride people from Oklahoma have for it... it’s like a double. And Sterlin’s, like, one of my best friends.” —Crain (45:26)
  • On the show’s broad appeal:
    “I just thought it was so culturally specific... and then they’re laughing.” —Crain (46:36)

Performance: “Joey” (47:34 – 52:46)

• Performed live; also featured in Reservation Dogs’ early episodes.
• Honest, evocative lyrics about memory, change, and longing.
• Memorable lyric: “I am a revolving door... What is time but a thief among men?”

Notable Moments & Quotes

• On withholding narrative information (03:39):
  “I wanted to avoid the moment where in the graveyard someone goes, Hi, we’re ghosts. We’re dead, but we don’t know it...” —George Saunders
• MFA Q&A on writing advice (31:12):
  “The magic means you’re writing in a way about which you have strong opinions. Not intellectual, but visceral.” —George Saunders
• On empathy in fiction (21:48):
  “Fiction... can be a way of just reaching out to someone and saying, I know it’s hard. Or if it’s not hard now, I know it’s going to get hard. We’re all together.”
• On finding joy in writing (33:12):
  “If writing isn’t fun, even if it’s very serious, it should still be fun to do it.”

Timestamps for Key Sections

• 04:12 – Good News (Sandwiches + Overdue Library Book)
• 11:26 – George Saunders Interview Begins
• 17:37 – Death & Empathy in Literature
• 23:59 – On Happy Endings
• 27:41 – MFA Students Q&A (AMA)
• 35:31 – Listener Stories: Impactful Teachers
• 39:05 – Samantha Crain Interview
• 47:34 – “Joey” Live Performance

Episode Tone

Warm, irreverent, insightful. George Saunders and Luke Burbank exchange wry banter and philosophical musings; Samantha Crain is earnest, witty, and relatable. The show highlights art’s power to build empathy, the unpredictable ways creativity unfolds, and the enduring influence of good teachers.

For First-Time Listeners

This episode is a tapestry of literary wisdom, real-world inspiration, and musical soulfulness. Whether you’re a writer, music lover, or casual listener, you’ll leave with memorable stories, fresh perspectives, and (likely) a craving for pimento cheese sandwiches.

End of Summary