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Live Wire with Luke Burbank
Hanif Abdurraqib and Kristen Hersh (REBROADCAST)
00:51:55
This episode features writer Hanif Abdurraqib and music from singer-songwriter Kristin Hersh.
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- [00:03]
Luke Burbank
Hey, there. Welcome to Livewire. I'm your host, Luke Burbank. This week, we have got two people who are operating at the absolute top of their game. First up, acclaimed writer and friend of the show, Hanif Abdul Raqib will be discussing his latest book, There's Always this Year. It's a reflection on his love of basketball, but it's more than that. It's about role models. It's about Columbus, Ohio, and also a very strange pop song called We Are Lebron, which was recorded by local Cleveland celebrities to the tune of We Are the World. Like we are Lebron. Can you hear it? Okay. Luckily, we have some actually good music for you to listen to as well this week from indie rocker Kristin Hirsch. She co founded the band Throwing Muses, and she's also got a new book out called the Future of Songwriting. Just between us, this episode of Livewire is going to be the stuff of legends. So stick around, get started right after this. This episode of Livewire was originally recorded in July of 2024. We hope you enjoy it. Now let's get to the show. Hey, Elena.
- [01:10]
Elena Passarello
Hey, Luke. How's it going?
- [01:12]
Luke Burbank
It is going spectacularly this week. I am wondering if you are in the right frame of mind for a little station location identification examination.
- [01:20]
Elena Passarello
Always, of course.
- [01:22]
Luke Burbank
This is where I quiz Elena on a place in the world where Livewire's on the radio. She's got to figure out where I'm talking about. This city was originally named Centerville, and the Hub City was its nickname because it is halfway between two major cities which are 87 miles to the north and 87 miles to the south of this place.
- [01:44]
Elena Passarello
Well, I'm not sure if this is right, but I just want to say Spartanburg, South Carolina, because it. There's a great press there called Hub City Press, and I just wanted to shout out an amazing literary institution.
- [01:55]
Luke Burbank
And it's fun to say Spartanburg, but you're gonna need to go diagonally to almost the opposite corner of the United States.
- [02:03]
Elena Passarello
Oh, dang. So it's somewhere in Washington state. Is it, Roslyn, where they filled Northern Exposure?
- [02:09]
Luke Burbank
No, but that's also a great town. This place was founded by a guy named George Washington, who was the first black person to found a town in the Pacific Northwest. He had this really interesting life story. This town, though, is not named for him. It is named for its unique location. It was called Centerville. And now if you took Centerville and replaced the back half with Centralia Trailia, you have Centralia, Washington, where we are on the radio on KSWS fm, part of the Northwest Public Broadcasting Network. So shout out to my pals in Centralia, Washington, should we get to the show?
- [02:53]
Elena Passarello
Let's do it. All right, Take it away from prx. It's Live Wire this week, writer and cultural critic Hanif Abdurraqib.
- [03:10]
Hanif Abdurraqib
I love a dog with its head out of a car. Watching the world speed by very quickly, that's like my most treasured image. That happens because it's if I'm being real about myself, that is how I'm encountering the world always. I feel like the world is operating at a velocity that is untenable for me.
- [03:26]
Elena Passarello
With music from Kristin Hirsch.
- [03:28]
Kristin Hirsch
If I'm going to recreate the moment of inspiration, I can't think I'm responsible for it. I hone my craft to serve it.
- [03:35]
Elena Passarello
And our fabulous house band, I'm your announcer, Elena Passarello. And now the host of Livewire, Luke Burbank.
- [03:47]
Luke Burbank
Hey, thank you so much, Elena Passarello. Thanks to folks for tuning in from all over the country, including Centralia, Washington. We have a really fun show in store for you this week. We've got an audience question that, of course, we pose each and every week. This week, we asked what is something you will always be a fan of? This is inspired by Hanif Abdurraqib's undying fandom to basketball. We're going to hear the listener responses coming up in a moment. First, though, it is time for the best news we heard all week. This is our little reminder right here at the top of the show that there's some good news happening out there in the world. Elena, what is the best news you heard all week?
- [04:29]
Elena Passarello
Okay, so we have to go to a beautiful part of British Columbia for this week's best news. Kelowna bc, which is on Okanagan Lake. That's where a person named Kelly Blair lives. He has a. It sounds like a kind of a nice yard with a garden well decorated. And at the end of June, he went outside one day to realize that all 10 of his garden gnomes had disappeared.
- [04:55]
Luke Burbank
Gnome theft. You hate to see it. It's a growing problem.
- [04:58]
Elena Passarello
It's a phenomenon.
- [05:00]
Luke Burbank
That's what I was. That's what I was reaching for.
- [05:03]
Elena Passarello
So. And you know, like, sometimes things disappear from people's yards. Kelly had recently lost a canoe, so he sort chalked it up to that. But then at the beginning of July, about a week later, there was a knock at his door. He opened the door, and an older woman that he had never seen before was standing there and she relatively silently handed him an envelope. And inside was a calling card in the shape of a gnome. And it said, the Gnome Restoration Society. She was like, follow me. And then he followed this woman to her car and she opened her car door and there were all 10 of his guardians in gnomes, which, you know, had been out there for a while. So they had shown several signs of wear and tear, but now they had been given total glow ups. We're talking painstakingly restored new paint, new gestures, bright as the day is long. He started asking questions and she said, this group would like to remain anonymous.
- [06:03]
Luke Burbank
Anonymous.
- [06:04]
Elena Passarello
Anonymous didn't even really work.
- [06:08]
Luke Burbank
I just, I'm trying to keep up with you.
- [06:09]
Elena Passarello
And if you look at a picture, there's a picture of on the local newspaper of Kelly and his beautifully restored garden gnomes. They actually accidentally didn't take one. Maybe it was by accident, maybe it wasn't. There was a left behind gnome. And when you look at that gnome versus the other gnomes, you can really see the difference of this incredible restoration. And I think there's a Pixar film in the making as far as that's concerned, the Left behind garden gnome. So, you know, feel free. Kelly, Gnome Restoration Society, whoever, Pixar, just give me a call because that IP is definitely worth expanding.
- [06:49]
Luke Burbank
Absolutely. I love this story that I want to tell you about Elena. And it starts when a woman named Helena Epstein was getting ready to sit for her gre, which is, you know, grad school examination. And she was feeling really nervous about it. So she reached out to her older sister, Amelia Epstein, who had taken the GRE before. And she called her to say, like, hey, do you have any advice? And Emilia said, boy, do I ever. Because when I was taking the gre, I got this voicemail that was just scheduling. The GRE was just confirming where and when I should show up for it. But it took a real turn and Amelia played this for her younger sister Helena, and something really happened after that. Let me just start by playing you a little bit of the voicemail.
- [07:34]
Tamika Rooks
This is Prometrics giving you a courtesy call for your GRE. That's tomorrow at 12. Notice you can arrive 45 minutes early. If you come early, we start you early. Make sure you have valid driver's license, ID or passport. Make sure that you come with a sweater or a fleece just in case the testing center is chilly. And just come confident and well prepared.
- [07:54]
Luke Burbank
So this is like pretty standard, right? This is just kind of the, like, where what? And When. And this is where it starts to really go into a whole other category. Take a Listen to this, Mr. Million.
- [08:06]
Tamika Rooks
This is what you study for. This is what you work hard for. Bring your best girl confidence. Bring your best girl magic. It's called girl power. Girl power is the best call. Ain't nothing better than that. So it put in your head that this is what you want. Don't come nervous, because when you have to do something for work, you're not nervous, but when you study for something, I just feel like people are more nervous when they study to get prepared. Then you walk into working, and work is unpredictable, and y'all are ready for work. You know what I'm saying, Mr. Million? So just come the same way as if you was coming for work. Just come confident, come prepared, and just tell yourself, I worked hard for this. Other than that, honey, I will see you tomorrow in the afternoon. And come with a smile, because I'll have one already.
- [08:55]
Luke Burbank
Oh, I mean, come on. So Halyna, after hearing this, said, we gotta figure out who this person was who left this incredible message for my older sister. So what did she do? She put it on TikTok, of course, and then there were millions of views, and people were just like, this is what I need in my life, this kind of energy. And it turns out that the message was left by a woman named Tamika Rooks, who has become now like the wind underneath our collective wings that we're all needing. Like, everybody is celebrating her and this incredible moment of inspiration. I will mention that Helena had her best score she has ever had on the gre. I guess she's taken it a couple of times after this pep talk, and she's completely attributing it to Tameka Rooks. She, of course, is handling this all now that she's becoming kind of an Internet celebrity in stride. She says she's flattered by the love, but she wants people to know it's just a voicemail. If you need to hold onto it, hold onto it. But don't think you need somebody else to tell you that you're great. That's within you.
- [09:59]
Elena Passarello
Oh, my God, I love this woman.
- [10:02]
Luke Burbank
That is the best news that I've heard all week. All right, let's say hi to our first guest. We don't like to play favorites around here, of course, but if we did, this guy would probably be on our list. It's not just us, though. He's a New York Times bestselling author. He's the recipient of a MacArthur foundation genius grant, and A finalist for the National Book Award. His latest book is There's Always this Year on Basketball and Ascension. Hanif Abdurraqib joined us on stage at the Patricia Valian Research center for the Creative Arts in Corvallis, Oregon. Take a listen to this.
- [10:52]
Hanif Abdurraqib
Hello, everyone.
- [10:54]
Luke Burbank
Hanif, welcome back to the show.
- [10:55]
Hanif Abdurraqib
It's good to be here. Thank you all for having me. It's really great to be back.
- [10:58]
Luke Burbank
I love this book so much. I have been constantly reaching out to my friends, particularly like, guys of a certain age who, like me and like you talk about in the book, just grew up obsessed with basketball. The lowering the hoop to where you could dunk it, but videotape it from such a way that you couldn't tell the hoop was lowered. Yeah, I just. This book is just. It's so beautifully written and it's about so many things. You. You start off in the book talking about beloveds, which is a nod to another Ohioan, Toni Morrison. Who are the beloveds that you're writing this book for?
- [11:33]
Hanif Abdurraqib
I think, like, past versions of myself in my. When my knees were in better shape, perhaps. Actually, that's a lot. My knees are actually incredible shape, if I'm being honest, which is good. Not that I'm bragging, but I also think there's a central idea in this book that I'm playing with of what it is to make it and kind of complicate the idea of what it is to make it or not make it, which is usually framed as if you have made it out of somewhere. But I think the central question I'm asking in the book is what if you do not want to exit the place, Is there a way to make it and still be beloved in the place that you want to see stay? And so I think there's a way that I'm writing towards the people who I love who have decided to stay in a place that I also love, which in this case is specifically Columbus, Ohio, but broadly Ohio, I think.
- [12:18]
Luke Burbank
Yeah.
- [12:18]
Hanif Abdurraqib
Oh, yeah, you've heard of it.
- [12:22]
Luke Burbank
You also. You write about the enemies, too. Who are the. Who are the enemies of this book?
- [12:26]
Hanif Abdurraqib
Well, okay, so the. The great thing about this book. Well, I don't know if it's a great thing. The great thing in my head that I did was trying or attempting to define the idea of an enemy early, which is to say that I. The opening sentence in the book is, you will surely forgive me if I begin this brief time we have together by talking about our enemies. And then I. In order to make the Trick work of I'm talking to all of us. I deconstruct the definition of enemy to something that we can all perhaps relate to, which is anyone who stands between us in our ability to feel great affection for a people, a place, a time, an era. Anyone who is hindering our ability to reach our fullest level of affections is an enemy. Which also means that sometimes our enemies are our beloveds. And sometimes our beloveds veer into the lane of enemy and then veer out of it. And so I think both the beloved and the enemy as a central construct in the book, they're kind of malleable. They work against each other and they work with each other. And sometimes they are the same. And sometimes the enemy is us.
- [13:22]
Luke Burbank
Sure.
- [13:23]
Hanif Abdurraqib
And the beloved is hopefully us every now and then too, if we're lucky.
- [13:26]
Luke Burbank
For people who think I don't know basketball like it's a sport, whatever, you know, it doesn't really matter. Can you try to explain what it has meant for you, particularly what it meant for you growing up in East Columbus and what it still means to you? Why is basketball so important to you?
- [13:41]
Hanif Abdurraqib
It still means a lot to me. I am currently right now thinking about the Minnesota Timberwolves, even though I'm here with both of you.
- [13:50]
Luke Burbank
Your body is here, but your mind.
- [13:52]
Hanif Abdurraqib
Is with like, literally as I was right before I walked out the stage. I had to like put my phone back in my pocket. Cause I was streaming the TIM Rules game. But I'm also happy to be here.
- [14:00]
Luke Burbank
That's fine.
- [14:01]
Elena Passarello
You can multitask. Yeah, we're fine with that.
- [14:03]
Hanif Abdurraqib
You have both let me down collectively fewer times than the TIM Rules ever have. So in a way, it's a low bar. You know, when I was growing up, we had a. I was lucky in that I had. I lived across the street from. From a park called Scottwood, which was also an elementary school. We saw it as a park. That's where the court was, the great Eastside Columbus basketball court where everyone came to play. Which means that I got to see literal all American high school all American basketball players playing. But in a game of pickup basketball, you are sometimes playing alongside just like a person, you know. So your six eight high school all American power forward was sometimes playing against just like a guy who was. Maybe got kicked off his high school team. But if that guy who got kicked off his high school team couldn't miss that day, then that was the all American pickup basketball affords one a kind of democratization of the space. If your day is your day, then you are having the day. You are the All American. You're the All Star. You are the one who has made it in that little spectrum of the world. I love that about pickup basketball. I'm not very tall. I'm not super fast. If all those skills come together for 15 points at a time, then I feel invincible. And what a gift to get to feel invincible once every few months for an hour. I feel like not everyone gets to drift into that world often.
- [15:26]
Luke Burbank
This is LIVEWIRE Radio. We're talking to Hanif Abdurraqib about his latest book, There's Always this Year on Basketball and Ascension. A lot more coming up here from Corvals in just a moment. Stay with us. Special thanks to our sponsor, Up Up Books, a Portland bookshop specializing in diverse authors, local writers and independent presses. They're located across from Revolution hall in the Buckman neighborhood and they offer a space for books, book clubs, workshops and events. Check out their website and grab a book@upupbooks.com welcome back to LiveWire from PRX. We are at the Patricia Valian Research center for the Creative Arts at Oregon State University in Corvallis. This week we're talking to Hanif Abdurraqib about his latest book, There's Always this Year on basketball and ascension. If you were from most places, maybe it would have featured Michael Jordan a lot. But you're not from most places. You're from Ohio. So it features LeBron James a lot, who you would watch in high school.
- [16:53]
Hanif Abdurraqib
Yeah.
- [16:54]
Luke Burbank
And I'm just, I think the way that you write about the state of Ohio, but particularly Cleveland's relationship with this person and how amazing it was when Cleveland got the first pick in the draft and got to have LeBron play there. But then also how devastating it was when LeBron left to go to Miami to try to win a championship. And there was a moment that I didn't know about until I read the book that there was a recording of a song by folks in the state of Ohio set to the tune of We Are the World. But it was we are LeBron.
- [17:30]
Hanif Abdurraqib
Yes.
- [17:31]
Luke Burbank
And I was wondering if you could kind of read that part of the book.
- [17:35]
Hanif Abdurraqib
And for those who haven't seen this, I would encourage you to go home and YouTube this. It is a delight. The song is called we are LeBron. And if you are right now counting syllables in your head wondering if this is a riff off of We Are the World, you have already done the required math to understand this level of desperation. Instead of chart topping singers clustered together in a studio, this version was populated by local news anchors, politicians, including Ted Strickland, the actual governor of Ohio at the time, a TV lawyer known for his absurd commercials, an alumna of MTV's the Real World, among others. When I said back there that the song doesn't take itself too serious, what I meant to say, I think, was that it is impossible to tell how seriously the song is or isn't taking itself. Some of this is simply because the vocal performances of the involved parties. Most of the people can't sing and don't really try, but every now and then there is a perfectly stitched together two part harmony between a meteorologist and a county clerk. The uneven nature of the cast itself itself also leads to confusion about the song's urgency. The song is both a production and not one of those things that many of us know all too well, built off the notion of of course I'm joking with one eye turned toward a reaction and then, unless tucked underneath the tongue, if there's something to be admired about the song from my point of view, lover of the pleading valid I am lover of the too late sobbing lover of the person leaning against the makeshift wall of pack boxes, refusing to move until they can stand their case just one last time. I must say I truly admire how shameless the lyrics of this cursed collaborative tune are, how under many other circumstances, these type of pleas would be at best whispered in a prayer heard by no one. But whatever divine power they are being sent up to, where this song turns and faces the soul of songs is first the question of need. The song, silly as it is, doesn't really offer up much in its first act other than reminding LeBron that Cleveland needs him and may not survive survive without him. But the song's emotional engine relies on an expression of what could be offered. And like in so many of these kinds of songs, what can be offered ain't much. Look, the song says with a half shrug, no one will love you like we can. Yes, the whole wide world has more to offer you than we've got here the coasts are more beautiful There's a shortcut to glory that does not run through Northeast Ohio but no one will love you like we love you here how can we get you to believe that's enough? That whatever is out there beyond this place we have loved each other in is too uncertain to trust Even if you're bored or unhappy, even if we don't dream in the same language anymore, we're familiar to each other and the depth of knowing is an intimacy that can cover at least some of the sins that might otherwise tear us apart, isn't it? The song is pathetic, sure, but all of these songs are pathetic. I find very little shame in the absurdity of the pathetic, when it's all a person feels like they have in their toolbox to keep close what they imagine is better than absence. The difference between soaring, crooning soul ballads that beg and beg and the all star cast of the Ohioans attempting to squeeze more time out of a Savior is that the ballad has no real epilogue that anyone can see. Sure, sometimes we are to believe that the beloved comes back, or sticks around or forgives the no good mother, but many of the songs dismount with a reliance on assumption. Even if the beloved returns, we are to believe that the no good motherf ker has changed their ways and that there is a renewed period of happily ever after. The songs like this I love most, like Don't Take My Sunshine Away by the Soul Children, just end with a rotation of chorus, a single man's voice stomping along the outskirts of a song with short yelps and shouts that become almost unintelligible, some version of I don't know what I'd do if Even as the music fades down, the voice still haunts, throwing the same word against a dwindling wall of and what other outcome could there be then, but a person giving in? This is what fools like me have been made to believe, what the movies say, what the Romantics say. And so I believe that on the other side of this robust suffering, there must be a bouquet of years better than whatever years led two people to a near demise.
- [21:49]
Luke Burbank
That's Hanif Abdulraqib. That's the kind of thing you'll find in this book. There's always this Year on Basketball and Ascension by Hanif Abdul Raqib. It's incredible. So LeBron, then he left for Miami, he got some rings and then came back to Cleveland and won a championship with Cleveland. Did that fit feel for you, as a lifetime, a lifelong fan, how you kind of thought it would feel?
- [22:25]
Hanif Abdurraqib
Well, I'm. I mean, I'm not. How do I word this? I'm not. Not a Cavs fan. But I'm certainly not a Cavs fan.
- [22:31]
Luke Burbank
I guess as a. As a.
- [22:32]
Hanif Abdurraqib
As an Ohioan.
- [22:33]
Luke Burbank
Yes, as an Ohioan, yeah.
- [22:35]
Hanif Abdurraqib
Well, I think the nature of the 2016 NBA Finals felt so unreal. Like just as a fan of basketball, it felt like I was watching. You know, Eventually Sisyphus, like, gets to the top of the mountains. Like, what do I do now? The boulders here, it felt like that. And it also felt like this massive moment of absolution where it was like everyone was so mad at LeBron when he left, and I think even when he came back, there was some skepticism. I feel like people don't remember that part of the story after the 2016 finals. I feel like no one could say anything about him to him. I think what people also don't remember is that they got back to the finals the year after, and it was kind of like they were destined to lose. You know, they just didn't have it. And I feel like no one really cared. And that's kind of. I love that arc of a career or a life, you know, Like, Stevie Wonder could make 20 records of him just, like, snoring, and it wouldn't matter to me because he made songs in the key of life. You know what I mean? He did the impossible thing. And I think sometimes if you can do the impossible thing once, you can do whatever else you want for a lifetime. And I think LeBron has perhaps secured his legacy. And to watch that happen in real time, it was really beautiful, I think.
- [23:38]
Luke Burbank
Yeah.
- [23:39]
Hanif Abdurraqib
Yeah.
- [23:39]
Luke Burbank
Something else in this book that you. You do is a really riveting kind of breakdown of the movie He Got Game, the Spike Lee film. And you describe this kind of sort of, I guess, penultimate scene where you've got. I think it's Ray Allen, Right. Playing Jesus Shuttlesworth and. And Denzel Washington as his father. And they're. They're in a. Legally. I don't know if this holds up as a way to decide if someone should finish a life prison term. But father and son are playing basketball against each other. The stakes are very, very high. And what I thought was interesting was you then kind of pivot to your own experience with your father and saying how for the many things about your father that you admire and that were really great, you kind of were a little regretful that he wasn't that into basketball, because you two could not have this epic scene.
- [24:27]
Hanif Abdurraqib
Yeah. We could never play one on one.
- [24:29]
Luke Burbank
Where you proved to him that you're finally a man, et cetera.
- [24:31]
Hanif Abdurraqib
Yeah. Or whatever. You know what I mean? With this idea where you can beat your parent at something. I don't know. I don't think that I lived most of my life wanting to triumph over my father in any way, but there was something about the basketball court where I thought if I could beat him one on one, I could show him something. About myself that otherwise would not be able to be revealed in any other form of our interaction with each other.
- [24:54]
Luke Burbank
Was this the most that you've written about your father in one of your books?
- [24:57]
Hanif Abdurraqib
Yeah. You know, for anyone who knows my work a little bit. My mother passed away when I was young and I feel like she hovers over most of my books.
- [25:02]
Luke Burbank
Yeah.
- [25:03]
Hanif Abdurraqib
And I had this thought that I am still continuing to have. I think there are some very real tangible ways that I am becoming my father. Right. That I sense and that I would I felt like running from for most of my life. But I realized two things. One, if I don't have grace for my father and our complications and joys then I do not have grace for the version of myself that I'm very rapidly speeding towards. But the other thing is just it's 10 in my mind I thought for so long I'm becoming my mother. But I actually don't know what it is to become my mother. Because my mother died when I was 13. And so my only real relationship with her is that of mother and child. You know what I mean?
- [25:45]
Luke Burbank
Yeah.
- [25:45]
Hanif Abdurraqib
As you. I think if you are lucky enough to have a tenured parent through that tenure might come some complications. But there also comes like the shared humanity of your. Your shared adulthoods wherein you can. The mirror. The mirror in which you exist becomes a lot firmer. And I think I am trying to take pride in becoming a version of myself that is a reflection of my father. A really tangible reflection of my father.
- [26:08]
Luke Burbank
Yeah.
- [26:09]
Elena Passarello
One of my favorite things about this book is kind of circles around what we're talking about now where you're talking about LeBron or you're talking about He Got Game. But then we move into these personal stories about your hometown, about your family. How did you find yourself navigating that as you were putting this whole book length piece together?
- [26:26]
Hanif Abdurraqib
I think sometimes you just stay really still in the thing that is not the personal. And I think Ross Gay does that really well. Mary Oliver does this really well. Where you just kind of stay in the one spot until through the staying something revelatory about your life emerges. You know what I love? I know this is a winding answer. You know what I love as an image and just as a thing? I love a dog with its head out of a car watching the world speed by very quickly. That's like my most treasured image that happens because if I'm being real about myself that is how I'm encountering the world always. I feel like the world is operating at A velocity that is untenable for me. What I require out of my brain is to say, I would like us to sit with this one single thing for maybe 10 to 15 pages because I miss it already. Like, I've seen something that I know I'm gonna miss if I don't catalog it. But through the cataloging of it, I also have to address what the ache is like. How have I seen this thing that already summoned an ache within me? And how long do I need to sit with it on the page until that ache reveals itself, and then I turn and say, oh, then I am talking about my father. Like, this ache exists because of an absence in my own life that I'm trying to chase.
- [27:34]
Luke Burbank
For those who are not basketball heads, there is also Legends of Ohio Aviation in the book.
- [27:40]
Hanif Abdurraqib
Yes.
- [27:41]
Luke Burbank
And you mentioned somebody who now I feel is a personal obsession of mine, Lonnie Carmen.
- [27:45]
Hanif Abdurraqib
Lonnie Carmen, my guy. Yes.
- [27:48]
Luke Burbank
I didn't know if maybe you invented this person. And then I googled it, and I was like, this is a real thing that happened. Can you talk about what this guy Lonnie Carmen did?
- [27:55]
Hanif Abdurraqib
Oh, Luke, thank you for bringing up Lonnie Carmen. No, seriously, I haven't gotten to talk about this at all. And that means a lot.
- [28:00]
Luke Burbank
So.
- [28:00]
Hanif Abdurraqib
Lonnie Carmen is from the east side of Columbus, where I'm from. And Lonnie Carmen is a guy who was nicknamed the Junk man, because he would take people in East Columbus would just drop their stuff off at his house and be milk cartons and. And apple crates and things like this. And he built a plane out of people's junk. He got like a lawnmower engine or something like that. And it flew. I mean, it literally flew. And on weekends, he would take it and fly it around the neighborhood. Not very high, obviously. He would fly. And it was. It's this incredible, miraculous thing that people in Lonnie Carmen's neighborhood who loved him and he loved them, got to watch him repurpose the things that they were done with and take them skyward. Like, that is just so beautiful. And there's a money. And the thing with Lonnie Carmen is that he applied for a job at the Columbus Airport, and he didn't get it because he wasn't, quote, unquote, qualified enough, which is. It's like this dude built a plane out of nothing.
- [28:58]
Luke Burbank
If you fly to your interview at the airport in a plane you built, they should give you the job. They should make you president of the air airport immediately.
- [29:07]
Hanif Abdurraqib
Carmen, in that. That Little piece I read about him. I talk about Lonnie Carmen has this little monument at the Columbus Airport. And I'm not superstitious when compared to, like, other black people, because every black person I know is, like, the most. And I'm just like. I'm like. Like on the. On a wing scale. I'm not like, spicy superstitious. I'm like mild superstitious. But one big superstition of mine is that when I'm going to get to walk to the TSI land at Columbus Airport, I touch the John Glenn Monument and I touched Lenny Carmen monument, because I love them both so much.
- [29:35]
Luke Burbank
Yeah. And John Glenn you write about in the book, too. I thought that was a really lovely moment where you were a school kid and he came to your school and you asked him, are you ever afraid? And what did he say?
- [29:44]
Hanif Abdurraqib
He said, I've never been more afraid than I have been curious. And this was right after he. So John Glenn, when he was very old, in his late 70s, convinced NASA to let him go back up.
- [29:54]
Luke Burbank
I forgot this happened, by the way, until the book.
- [29:57]
Hanif Abdurraqib
Do you know what? He convinced NASA let him go back up in the space. Space. Because he did so much scientific research to show that what happens to the body as it ages is the same as what happens to the body as it enters space's orbit, as it breaks the threshold. But, like, what? No one. People talk about that in a scientific way, but no one talks about it in this emotional way, which to me is that John Glenn decided that he had found something he was willing to die for. You know, I mean, like, that's it. He had seen outer space and it moved him to such a degree, if it meant that he would die to go back to see it again, he was going to do that. I admire a specific kind of person who decides it would be unsatisfying for them to live a life without touching that kind of beauty again, you know?
- [30:36]
Luke Burbank
Yeah. I love the title of this book so much. There's always this year. As a sports fan, you know, that's the refrain is always. There's always next year. Is it a call to action?
- [30:46]
Hanif Abdurraqib
Kind of. I mean, I think 1. There's a very material reason for it. I don't know if anyone knows about the. The banner that the Cavs unfurled during the 2016 NBA Finals. They were down. I think it was like there was. I think it was the three games to one, they were down. And in Quicken Loans arena, they unfurled the banner that said, there's always this here. But also I wanted to make a book that is formally, structurally, in some ways linguistically like nothing I'd ever seen before. To do that meant two things. One, it meant that I did not have a relationship with failure. I didn't know what failure looked like. I could say I'm making something that I've never seen exist, and therefore I don't really know when I'm failing, which is kind of cleansing. But in order to do that, too, I think for me, a writer I admired a great deal, is the late Greg Tate. And Greg Tate was so great because I felt like everything he wrote, he wrote it like it was the last thing he was ever going to write. Every review, every essay, it's like the last thing. But I think in order to pursue something that you cannot see and you don't, you can't touch, you in some ways have to bring yourself to a place that is very much now or never. You know, at least in my mind, I can't say anymore, I'll try that next book. I'll try that next book. It was kind of like everything I've been dreaming I can put into one book. Because who knows if I'm thinking about Ross Gay, the poet who has this very strong engine towards every time could be the last time. And so it has to be a very focused effort. Part of me latched on to the phrase of there's always this year, because internally I needed that as my actual engine to say it's now with this book or it's never with any book.
- [32:17]
Luke Burbank
Well, to borrow from your friend Ross Gay, this is a book of delights, my friend.
- [32:23]
Hanif Abdurraqib
Thank you.
- [32:23]
Luke Burbank
It's an incredible piece of work and I'm just so glad you put it in the world. There's Always this Year on Basketball and Ascension by Hanif Abdul Raqib. Everyone, right here on Livewire. That was Hanif Abdulraqib right here on Livewire. Make sure you check out his latest book, There's Always this Year on Basketball and Ascension. It is truly an incredible piece of writing and it has inspired our listener question this week. Of course, we like to ask the Livewire listeners a question. And based on Hanif's deep, deep love for basketball, which I also share, we wanted to ask the live our listeners what is something you will always be a fan of? Elena has been collecting up those responses. What are you seeing?
- [33:12]
Elena Passarello
I love this one from Tara. Tara says, I may be in the minority here, but I love the talking interludes in old school R B songs like boys to men. Shivers down my spine every time. And I think that's those. Like, hey, girl, We've been together for so very long. I want you to know that. I'm sorry. I'll take you back. No questions asked. We should put one in this show. Hey, girl.
- [33:39]
Luke Burbank
All right. What is another thing that one of our listeners will always be a fan of?
- [33:44]
Elena Passarello
What do you think about this one from Seth? Seth will always be a fan of old school arcade games. The satisfying clunk of tokens, the possibility of a small crowd cheering you on. And. And I love this part. The smell of very mediocre pizza and popcorn. Video games at home just can't compete.
- [34:04]
Luke Burbank
Did you have an arcade game that you got particularly good at as a kid? Like, that was kind of the one you could show off with?
- [34:10]
Elena Passarello
Oh, absolutely not. No. Anything that involved hand eye coordination. I could barely even do duck hunt with the gun. Up against the screen.
- [34:18]
Luke Burbank
Right up against the screen. Yeah, that was. I would sometimes do that when people would leave the room, and then they'd just come back and I'd be like, hey, look at the score I got. And they would say, can you reproduce that with independent auditing? And I would say, I cannot. Okay, one more quick one before we get out of here.
- [34:31]
Elena Passarello
Here's a really sweet one from Sarah. Sarah will always be a fan of family game night. I loved it as a kid. I still love it as a parent, even though it turns out that my children are cheaters.
- [34:44]
Luke Burbank
This is what I feel like the arc of any game night is we start doing it, and I think, why did we agree to do this? And then cut to an hour later? And I'm so invested in the game. The conversation that has been happening, like, it ends up being really fun. I always think it's a bad idea when I start, and by the end, I'm, like, so happy that we did it.
- [35:03]
Elena Passarello
I never laugh harder with my family than when we decide to play a game together. It's just. There's something about it that just turns, like, your most curmudgeonly family member into, like, a competitive, excited. It's such a great way to just, like, laugh till your stomach hurts.
- [35:21]
Luke Burbank
Just watch out for Scrabble because we've had some arguments in the Burbank family that have almost been relationship ending around what words are and are not acceptable. Noted things have been said that can't be unsaid. Let's just put it that way. But I just want to say thank you to everybody who sent in a response to Our listener question. We got another one for next week's show, which we'll hear coming up. In the meantime, you are listening to Livewire from prx. Our musical guest. This week's extraordinary four decade career includes her time with Throwing Muses, the legendary band that she co founded at the age of four, along with her solo records and her latest band, 50 Foot Wave. She's also a writer with three memoirs under her belt. Her latest book, the Future of Songwriting, meditates on the future of her craft and considers her own trajectory as a songwriter. Kristin Hirsch joined us at the Patricia Research center for the Arts in Beaverton, Oregon. Take a listen.
- [36:25]
Kristin Hirsch
Thank you.
- [36:26]
Luke Burbank
Welcome back to the show.
- [36:28]
Kristin Hirsch
Thank you, dear.
- [36:29]
Luke Burbank
I love this book and it's so interesting. So this is part of a series, right? The Future of Various Things. And the folks that are putting those together approached you and wanted you to write about the future of songwriting Futurist Thinker series.
- [36:43]
Kristin Hirsch
And they had suggested that I be the music guy, which I thought, you know, pretty wide parameters. So I narrowed it to songwriting.
- [36:52]
Luke Burbank
This book is so interesting because you're in Australia, it's Christmas time, which is hot as balls.
- [37:00]
Kristin Hirsch
Yeah, yeah.
- [37:02]
Luke Burbank
But they're playing It's a Wonderful Life, but you could fry an egg on the sidewalk.
- [37:06]
Kristin Hirsch
There were flying foxes hanging from the trees. It was 4,000 degrees. And they weren't just playing It's a Wonderful Life, they were playing it 247 from a month, which is like, that's just a glitch. Right. But you can't turn it off. If you're a homesick American, it stays on in your flat in Sydney. So it was like coming home to this weird sort of twisted homesickness dream that was made better and more touching for that.
- [37:38]
Luke Burbank
And the structure of the book is you're in conversation with a friend of yours who's a comedian. I get the sense you're both performing as part of a festival.
- [37:46]
Kristin Hirsch
Yeah, it was a Sydney fringe festival.
- [37:49]
Luke Burbank
Now, why did you choose those conversations to sort of be the structure of this conversation about songwriting?
- [37:57]
Kristin Hirsch
One of the reasons is that comedians are an interesting juxtaposition of inspiration and response. They are trying to recreate the moment of inspiration that made them crack up. That response is a given in their audience, unless it's not, which makes them an interesting train wreck sometimes that I don't have to be because I just keep doing whatever I'm doing. A musician can't really die on stage the way a comedian can. But they can't really measure musical response. They try and they end up with breadth, not depth. And that has been one of my frustrations throughout my career. It's what made me leave the corporate recording industry. And of course, you can't measure depth. And it's difficult to go to a record company and say, I'd rather have one person buy one record and listen a million times than a million people buy a record and listen once. Duh. And that's not really how the industry is set up.
- [39:05]
Luke Burbank
Yeah, it turns out we've been trying to do this show with one listener, and it's not penciling out. I mean, that is one of the central themes of the book is this idea of commerce versus art and how commerce seems to really be the enemy of making good art. But you need a certain amount of commerce to happen to be able to keep making the art. And I know that that's, you know, throughout your career, something that you've really talked about and pushed back against and experienced in a bunch of different ways.
- [39:36]
Kristin Hirsch
It's often imperative to work within a structure in order to have any impact. And I don't think we're here to change the world, but we're here to live. And if the world doesn't let you live, you have to change it to help others like you. And I know that there are millions of actual musicians who don't want to play product on this planet. I've met them. And they won't go anywhere near the business. And we're poorer for that. I'm sorry that there is a musically illiterate populace that has only heard fast food. They're going to eat it. But that doesn't mean we insult them by calling them lowest common denominator and giving them more junk food. It just makes them sick.
- [40:29]
Luke Burbank
You have a chapter in this book that's titled never forget that you sometimes suck. And I was wondering why that's an important thing. That seems like it would just make it harder to be creative. What's the useful when it comes to songwriting and creativity? What's the useful part of never forgetting that you sometimes suck?
- [40:50]
Kristin Hirsch
I would actually tweak that and say, never forget that you always suck.
- [40:55]
Luke Burbank
A message of hope this week on Livewire from the famous inspirational.
- [41:02]
Kristin Hirsch
Because when you get in the way, you start to kill it. If I'm going to recreate the moment of inspiration, I can't think I'm responsible for it. I hone my craft to serve it. But if I were to start making stuff up at you, that's me trying to be bigger than you. Me trying to imply that the narcissist sycophant equation that we're so used to is somehow at play, and it's not. We're standing on two sides of a song. Maybe. But my goal for a listener is that they take the song as their own. You know, a fan can't do that. That's not what they're doing. They're there to be sad because they put a pop star on a pedestal that they would love to knock them off of. And it's not them up there. There's a sadness and no love. It's just like. So if I'm gonna say we'll love something, then I have to get out of the way.
- [42:07]
Luke Burbank
You have to really kill your ego.
- [42:09]
Kristin Hirsch
That's it. Yeah. That's a better way to say it.
- [42:17]
Luke Burbank
This is Livewire. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarella. We're listening to a conversation with the singer songwriter Kristen Hirsch of throwing muses and 50 foot wave. Now, we've got to take a quick break, but promise me you won't go anywhere because when we come back, Kristen is going to perform a song from her latest album, Clear Pond Road. And I have heard the song. I was there when we recorded it. And I can tell you, you don't want to miss it. So stick around. More Livewire in just a moment. Livewire is sponsored by Secret Aardvark hot sauce, celebrating 20 years of awesome sauce, plus a whole line of hot sauces and marinades. From their classic aardvark habanero hot sauce to their fiery reaper smoked and red scorpion. There's a sauce for every heat lover. Stay connected by following Secret Aardvark on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok for recipes, hot sauce fun and more. Welcome back to Livewire. I'm your host Luke Burbank, here with Elena Passarello. Before we get back to our chat with the musician Kristen Hirsch, a little preview of what we're doing on the program. Next week, we are going to be hanging out with horror author Stephen Graham Jones. This was part of the Portland Book Festival. Stephen has written over 30 novels, including his latest, I Was a Teenage Slasher. And he is going to explain what he finds so fascinating about the horror genre and also what the sort of specific rules are for being a slasher in the horror genre. I'll also mention Steven started the interview by ordering a tequila from the bar at the Alberto Rose Theater, which was my first sign that this is going to be entertaining. We've also got Stand up comedy from our friend Alex Falcone. He will explain why he actually does not want to die doing something that he loves. And then we are going to have some fun and trippy music from the psychedelic cumbia punk trio Tropa Magica. So make sure you tune in for that. Hey, special thanks this episode to Rebecca Taborek of Portland, Oregon, and Amanda Trujillo of Milwaukee, Oregon. Rebecca and Amanda are part of the Livewire member community and they are generously supporting our show with a donation each month. And we are so thankful for that support because it is how we can keep Livewire going. So a big thanks to Rebecca and Amanda. This is Livewire from prx. Let's get back to our conversation now with musician Kristin Hirsch. She joined us at the Patricia Reeser center for the Arts in Beaverton, Oregon. We were talking about her book, the Future of Songwriting. And we're also going to hear some music from her latest album, which is Clear Pond Road. This is Kristen Hirsch here on livewire. You were so young when you started the band Throwing Muses and then had a lot of success with that at a really, really young age. What do you think that did to your view of the quote unquote, industry and creativity and songwriting and all of it? Too many people toil in anonymity for their whole career. They do music as a side project. Very few people have the exact experience you did, which was you and the people you collaborated with made stuff that was really well received.
- [45:50]
Kristin Hirsch
I was very confused. I still don't really have an impression of why anyone would listen. I think it's personal. Go write your own song. But I can't seem to continue being a musician with that any more than I can with the person who buys my record and listens a million times.
- [46:12]
Luke Burbank
That would be very John Cage of you if you just showed up and said, all right, everyone do the concert, and then you just left. You all do your music.
- [46:20]
Kristin Hirsch
But honestly, I didn't notice. I didn't do any of the math. I was staring down at a guitar. I could have been in an alley somewhere as far as I knew. I never understood that if you played a big place, you were supposed to be more successful than if you played a little bar or a party. I'm not real bright, but I was also very focused and I was always asked to do the same thing. So wherever we were, I was thinking about music and I did the same thing, and I still do. It's worked for me because there's actually much more truth to it than there was at the time when it was all bought, every magazine cover, all the radio play, everything was just bought and paid for. It wasn't the public voting for anything.
- [47:10]
Luke Burbank
Well, can we hear a song?
- [47:12]
Kristin Hirsch
No, I don't think so.
- [47:14]
Luke Burbank
Audience, does anyone in the audience have a song? I knew it would come to this. What are we gonna hear?
- [47:22]
Kristin Hirsch
This is I shine. It's from my new record, Clear Pond Road.
- [47:28]
Luke Burbank
This is Kristen Hirsch on Livewire.
- [47:43]
F
A wash, a road and a wad of cash a grain of salt bite your tongue, that is enough. But I don't talk, I don't talk, I don't talk Shine to devastation ground glass so fast it is this is nice and only half of it cost any money this is right and only half of it costing me money.
- [48:50]
Hanif Abdurraqib
And.
- [48:51]
F
Cool anger prince you give dirty looks I could name I knew you would cuz you don't talk, you don't talk, you don't talk Sh to devastation ground glass of fat sick peace this is nice. And only half of it costing me money this is right I will be constantly I see that snow.
- [50:08]
Kristin Hirsch
I watch.
- [50:09]
F
Your lips you are the view you are the view. This conflict resolution to be with you, to be with you it's transfixed as a dead shine.
- [51:27]
Luke Burbank
That is Kristen Hirsch right here on Livewire. Pop of her new album Clear Pond Road. And that's going to do it for this week's episode of Livewire. A big thanks to our guests Hanif Abdurraqib and Kristen Hirsch.
- [51:45]
Elena Passarello
Lara Haddon is our executive producer, Heather D. Michelle is our executive director, and our producer and editor is Melanie Savchenko. Eben Hofer is our technical director, and our house sound is by Dee Neil Blake. Tre Hester is our assistant editor and Becky Phillips is our intern. Our house band is Ethan Fox, Tucker, Sam Tucker, Eyal Alves and A. Walker Spring, who also composes our music. This episode was mixed by Molly Pettit and Trey Hester.
- [52:10]
Luke Burbank
Additional funding provided by the Oregon Arts Commission, a state agency funded by the state of Oregon and the National Endowment for the Arts. Livewire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week we would like to thank members Rebecca Teborek of Portland, Oregon, and Amanda Trujillo of Milwaukee, Oregon. For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast, head ON over to livewireradio.org I'm Luke Burbank. For Elena Passarello and the whole Livewire crew. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week. Wouldn't it be amazing to have a piping hot episode of Livewire delivered right to your heart and ears each week. Well, guess what? That can happen when you subscribe to the Livewire podcast feed. And you'll get the joy of surprising conversation every week. So go ahead and do it. It's super easy. You click on the button at the top of your podcast app and bam. You are Livewire subscribed. And if you're still, you know, feeling the love, if you're enjoying the show, hey, maybe you could hook us up and leave us a quick review that'll help more people find out about Livewire. And thank you.
- [53:38]
Kristin Hirsch
From prx.