Ian Karmel & Dr. Alisa Karmel, Zainab Johnson, and Meklit (REBROADCAST)

Summary

Live Wire with Luke Burbank: Episode Featuring Ian & Dr. Aliza Carmel, Zainab Johnson, and McLeet

Release Date: December 27, 2024
Host: Luke Burbank (PRX)
Guests:

• Ian Carmel: Comedian and Emmy-nominated TV writer
• Dr. Aliza Carmel: Clinical Psychologist and Ian’s sister
• Zainab Johnson: Stand-up Comedian
• McLeet: Ethio Jazz Musician

---

1. Exploring Sibling Dynamics and Body Positivity

Guests: Ian Carmel & Dr. Aliza Carmel
Book Discussed: T Shirt Swim Club: Stories from Being Fat in a World of Thin People

Luke Burbank introduces Ian Carmel and his sister, Dr. Aliza Carmel, highlighting their collaborative book that delves into their experiences of living as fat individuals in a society predominantly geared towards thinness. The book uniquely blends Ian’s comedic take with Dr. Aliza’s clinical insights, offering a multifaceted perspective on body image and self-acceptance.

Key Discussions:

• Origin of the Collaboration:
  "It was my agent's idea," Ian explains how the idea to co-write the book was sparked during a conversation about their shared experiences growing up overweight.

• Processing Trauma Differently:
  Dr. Aliza reflects, "I'm still processing it. It’s a lifelong experience," contrasting her clinical approach with Ian’s use of comedy to navigate their childhood traumas related to weight.

• Home Environment:
  Both siblings emphasize that their home was a sanctuary where being fat wasn’t a source of shame. "It was kind of the one place in the world where it didn't suck to be fat," Ian shares, highlighting the supportive atmosphere they fostered.

• Media Representation:
  They critique how media portrays fat individuals, often oscillating between humor and pity without capturing the complexity and joy of their lives. Dr. Aliza notes, "There's a lot of joy and there's a lot of wonderfulness in this."

Notable Quote:
Ian reads the book’s dedication: "Dedicated to all the fat kids. It gets better." ([32:05])

---

2. Navigating Diet Culture and Modern Weight Loss Solutions

Discussion Between: Luke Burbank, Ian Carmel, Dr. Aliza Carmel

The conversation shifts to the pervasive diet culture and the rise of pharmaceutical solutions like Ozempic and Wegovy. Both Carmel siblings share their personal battles with various diets, emphasizing the limitations and failings of one-size-fits-all approaches.

Key Points:

• Ineffectiveness of Standard Diets:
  "Diets fail, not the people," Dr. Aliza asserts, explaining that standardized diets don’t cater to individual needs and often ignore the underlying emotional factors influencing eating habits.

• Pharmaceutical Aids:
  The discussion touches on the potential and pitfalls of drugs like Ozempic. Dr. Aliza cautions, "They need to understand what's going on before they just jump on board," highlighting the necessity of addressing emotional and psychological aspects alongside medical interventions.

• Personal Experiences:
  Ian shares his skepticism towards quick fixes, emphasizing the importance of tackling the root causes of disordered eating. "A big part of it was anxiety, and I could go on Ozempic and Ozempic would not treat my anxiety," he admits, stressing that without addressing mental health, such solutions are only temporary.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Aliza emphasizes, "We do a lot of work of detaching from that [appearance] and embracing your worth in more meaningful ways." ([31:08])

---

3. Life After Weight Loss: Identity and Self-Perception

Guests: Ian Carmel & Dr. Aliza Carmel

The Carmel siblings delve into the complexities of identity post-weight loss. Ian discusses the dissonance between his internal self and public perception, particularly in his career as a stand-up comedian.

Key Insights:

• Changing Perceptions:
  Ian shares, "I was on stage after having lived 35 years as a fat person telling jokes about fat people. And I'm like, why aren't they laughing?" illustrating the challenges of evolving self-identity while maintaining past coping mechanisms.

• Maintaining Relationships with Self:
  Both siblings acknowledge that weight loss doesn’t erase past experiences or redefine one’s relationship with their body. Dr. Aliza adds, "There is a relationship you have with yourself and with your health and with your eating for the rest of your life."

Notable Anecdote:
Ian humorously recounts his struggle with finding fashionable clothing post-weight loss, illustrating the superficial changes that accompany significant personal transformations. "I bought like a cream... I wore it once and then I saw myself in the mirror and I... that was rock bottom for me." ([30:13])

---

4. Stand-Up Comedy with Zainab Johnson

Guest: Zainab Johnson
Special Mention: Hijabs Off Comedy Special

Zainab Johnson, a comedian and one of 13 siblings, takes the stage to share her unique experiences growing up in a large, Black Muslim family. She humorously addresses misconceptions about her faith and personal identity.

Key Points:

• Cultural Misunderstandings:
  Zainab jokes about the frequent mispronunciations of her name and the assumptions others make about her religious practices. "I always get like, 'Zimbutu, Where'd you get those letters from?'" ([36:32])

• Sibling Dynamics:
  She humorously discusses the statistical improbability of having a gay sibling in a family of 13, highlighting the pressures and expectations within large families. "We should have two," she quips, reflecting on family diversity. ([44:08])

Notable Quote:
Zainab humorously remarks on her family's knockout diversity, "We got 13 kids, and only one is a murderer. You did good, right?" ([44:50])

---

5. Ethio Jazz with McLeet

Musical Guest: McLeet
Latest EP: Ethio Blue

McLeet, an Ethio jazz musician and TED Senior Fellow, performs tracks from her latest EP, Ethio Blue. She discusses her creative process, the influence of her cultural heritage, and her innovative project, Movement.

Key Highlights:

• Creating Ethio Blue:
  McLeet shares, "I wrote most of the songs in 2019 when I was very, very, very pregnant," revealing the personal inspirations behind her music.

• Movement Project:
  She explains her Movement initiative, aimed at showcasing the cultural power and musical innovation of immigrant communities. "We uplift the songs and stories of immigrant, migrant, and refugee musicians," she states, emphasizing the importance of diverse narratives in music.

Performance Excerpt:
McLeet delivers a captivating rendition of the title track from Ethio Blue, blending traditional Ethio sounds with contemporary jazz elements.

---

6. Community and Listener Engagement

Throughout the episode, Luke and Elena engage with listener stories about sibling arguments, adding a relatable and humorous touch to the show. Examples include battles over salad ingredients and childhood dynamics inspired by pop culture references like the Spice Girls.

Listener Stories Highlight:

• Heather vs. Her Sibling:
  "I like tomatoes and hate cucumbers," Lauren shares, detailing their playful yet relentless salad ingredient warfare. ([34:03])

• Sarah’s Spice Girls Showdown:
  Sarah recounts wrestling over who gets to embody Baby Spice versus Ginger, reflecting the childhood competitiveness fostered by popular music icons. ([34:31])

---

Conclusion

This episode of Live Wire with Luke Burbank offers a profound exploration of sibling relationships, body positivity, and cultural identity through engaging conversations and performances. Ian and Dr. Aliza Carmel provide insightful perspectives on navigating life as fat individuals, while Zainab Johnson and McLeet deliver laughter and soulful music that resonate deeply with listeners. The episode successfully intertwines personal narratives with broader societal themes, making it both entertaining and thought-provoking for audiences.

Recommended Listening:

• T Shirt Swim Club: Stories from Being Fat in a World of Thin People by Ian & Dr. Aliza Carmel
• Hijabs Off Comedy Special by Zainab Johnson
• Ethio Blue EP by McLeet

---

Notable Quotes:

• "It gets better." – Dedication by Ian Carmel ([32:05])
• "We're talking to Dr. Eliza Carmel and also stand up comic Ian Carmel." – Luke Burbank ([16:27])
• "Just someone who has shared your experience, but done so with understanding, humor, empathy, and the advice of somebody with a doctorate in clinical psychology." – Ian Carmel ([14:34])

---

By weaving together personal anecdotes, expert insights, and cultural commentary, this episode stands out as a meaningful discourse on body image, family dynamics, and the power of storytelling in fostering understanding and acceptance.

Transcript

[Luke Burbank]

Hey there. Welcome to Livewire. I'm your host, Luke Burbank. This week on the show we are going to be talking about siblings. First up, it's our friend, the comedian and Emmy nominated TV writer Ian Carmel, who will be joined on stage by his actual sister, Dr. Aliza Carmel. The two of them co wrote this really good book. It's called T Shirt Swim Club, which explores their daily lives as they write being fat in a world built for thin people. Then we've got some standup comedy from the very funny Zaynab Johnson, who will talk about being one of 13 kids. So 12 siblings, absolutely dwarfing the work of Susie and Walter Burbank. But Zaynab is so funny you want to stick around for that? Then we've got music from the super talented Ethio jazz sensation Macleet, who is not bringing any of her siblings on stage, but she is still going to knock your socks off. Call your siblings, tell em that Livewire gets started right after this.

[Monet X Change]

Hey y'all. Welcome to Monet Talks with me, your.

[Luke Burbank]

Girl, Monet X Change, a weekly podcast.

[Monet X Change]

Where the only thing hotter than the tea is our topics, darling. Every single Thursday we'll be bringing you candid interviews, fun segments and games featuring.

[Luke Burbank]

A dazzling array of guests including fellow.

[Monet X Change]

Queens, other celebrities, pop culture icons, friends, and maybe even an ex boyfriend or four. Head over to YouTube.com monetexchangeofficial and tell.

[Luke Burbank]

All your friends you can listen to.

[Monet X Change]

Monat Talks completely free on Spotify, Apple podcasts or anywhere else you get your podcast.

[Luke Burbank]

Livewire is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law, not available in all states. This episode of Livewire was originally recorded in August of 2024. We hope you like it. Now let's get to the show. Hey, Elena.

[Elena Passarello]

Hey, Luke. How's it going?

[Luke Burbank]

It's going great. Are you ready for another round of the game that is absolutely sweeping the nation? Station location identification examination?

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah, I think so.

[Luke Burbank]

This is where I quiz Elena on a place in the country where Livewire is on the radio. She's got to guess where we are talking about. This place is considered the world's innermost port as it is the most upstream navigable port on the Mississippi river system. Maybe a little more west than you would imagine. When you hear Mississippi, I don't know. Okay, well, I'm sure this is gonna help. Of course, you know, Shep, the herding dog that showed up at a railway station in this town in 1936 and watched as his deceased master's casket was loaded onto the train and left. And the dog waited there for the next five and a half years.

[Elena Passarello]

So we've got a river and a railroad and we're farther west of the.

[Luke Burbank]

Mississippi than you might think.

[Elena Passarello]

So what are we thinking? What are we doing here? Are we doing like a St. Louis situation?

[Luke Burbank]

No, we're kind of going more Big sky. We're keeping the sky real big at Bozeman, Montana, close. Fort Benton, Montana, which is home to public radio station kypz, where we were on the radio as part of the Yellowstone Public Radio Network. Should we get to the show?

[Elena Passarello]

Let's do it.

[Luke Burbank]

All right. Take it away.

[Elena Passarello]

From PRX, it's Live Fire this week. Authors Ian Carmel and Dr. Eliza Carmel.

[Monet X Change]

You kind of can't talk about the hurricane while you're in the hurricane, right? It's mostly just trying to survive it. You're like, grab that board and nail.

[Luke Burbank]

It against that window, right?

[Monet X Change]

Hand me that T shirt. I'm going to put it on. Nobody's going to know I'm fat in the pool.

[Elena Passarello]

And comedian Zaynab Johnson.

[Zaynab Johnson]

When I post things about being Muslim, I'll get like, you know, hate from like other Muslims online. Like, oh, you're not Muslim. You don't even cover your hair. I'm like, well, this is a wig.

[Elena Passarello]

So technically, with music from McLeet and our fabulous house band, I'm your announcer, Elena Passarello. And now the host of livewire, Lou Burbank.

[Luke Burbank]

Hey, thank you so much, Elaina Passarello. Thanks to everyone tuning in from all over the country, including Fort Benton, Montana. We have a really good show in store for you all this week. Of course, we've got the answer to our listener question that we've posed, which was, what's the most ridiculous argument you've had with your sibling or siblings? We're going to give you those answers coming up in a moment. First, though, we've got to kick things off with the best news we heard all week. This is our little reminder at the top of the show. There is good news happening out there in the world. Elena, what is the best news that you heard this week?

[Elena Passarello]

Oh, this is I love this story. It takes place in Germany, which is probably not a country that you associate with an animal known as the lynx. Turns out that the lynx used to be quite prolific throughout Germany, Bavaria, et cetera. They're the largest cat in Europe, but they were hunted to local extinction about a hundred years ago, and now there's, like, fewer than 200 in Germany. There's a program that's affiliated with the Nuremberg Zoo to change that and reintroduce a plentiful amount of lynx into the ecosystem. And one of the lynx that the Nuremberg Zoo bred was born in the Nuremberg Zoo last year. His name is Chapo, which is Mexican slang for shorty. I also once did a report about a rat named Chapo for Audubon magazine. So I was very excited. And this rat also had very similar escapist tendencies. So Chapo, when he was about a year old, was sent to a breeding center in the woods. And, like, the first thing he did was just hop the fence. He was like, peace out. I don't want to do this anymore. And they brought him back. And then he basically spent the first, like, couple of weeks that he was in this enclosure trying to find ways to get out.

[Luke Burbank]

But.

[Elena Passarello]

But this is the thing that's cool that I think is kind of the best news. They knew from his disposition when he was born in the zoo that he might not be a zoo animal. He might be a really good candidate for reintroduction. So from his birth, they had minimum contact with him. They only fed him game. They kept him in a relatively large enclosure. So when they realized this thing about him that he wouldn't even really be able to work in captivity in a breeding center, they were able to release him relatively quickly. In July, they've let him go with a GPS collar around his neck into a forest in Saxony, where three other lynxes had recently been released and were thriving. So now the number of lynxes in Germany, Carpathian lynxes in Germany has gone from 190 to 194.

[Luke Burbank]

Wow. Chopo. Showing the chops to survive in the wild. That's impressive.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

I saw a story out of Houston, the greater Gulf of Mexico area, that I thought was pretty heartwarming. It starts with Nathan and Kim Maker. They are a married couple. They live in Edmond, Oklahoma. They are scuba divers as well, and they love to go down and scuba dive in the Gulf of Mexico. And a couple of years ago, they'd gone down to Houston to do this, and they went into a restaurant called Kenny and Ziggy's Delicatessen Restaurant and Bakery. And this is because Kim Maker is a fan of the show the Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, and she wanted to get a black and white cookie because she had seen it on the show, and they had it at Kenny and Ziggy's, which is kind of like a traditional Jewish deli. So they have their big plan. They're gonna do their dive, and then they're gonna celebrate with a pastrami sandwich at this deli in Houston. So they're diving, they're underwater. A current grabs Kim and Nathan and pulls them away from the group that they are with and away from the tether that they're supposed to be following to get back to the boat. By the time they surface, there's a huge storm in the Gulf of Mexico and no scuba diving boat.

[Elena Passarello]

This is not where I thought this story was going. Good Lord.

[Luke Burbank]

They are floating in the Gulf of Mexico, the two of them, for 39 days, hours, by the way. There are Coast Guard crews looking for them. There are helicopters. Nobody can find them. And there was a spotter flight that was almost done. They said, we're gonna do one more loop. This was in, like, the 39th hour. And they just went to this one area they hadn't been before, and Kim had her diving light, and she was flashing SOS to this rescue flight, which actually saw them and got down to them or at least was able to get help out to where they were, and they were saved. They were surprisingly okay. I mean, they had, you know, some exposure issues and potential hypothermia. But, like, they were after, like, a day in the hospital, they were sort of. All right. All right. Enough to go to the deli, where they were really looking forward to getting their pastrami sandwiches, their black and white cookies, their black and white cookies, their pastrami sandwiches. They ordered, like, their favorite thing, which is the matzo ball soup, of course, the triple decker sandwich, and a slice of cheesecake with extra pickles. It's also pretty cute because the guy who owns this deli, Ziggy Gruber, is a third generation deli man. His grandfather started one of the first Jewish delis up in Manhattan. And he, of course, was very excited that these two folks were there. They started getting recognized. And he said that when they tried to pay for the pastrami sandwich, he had his waiter tear up the bill. He said, listen, if you've gone through that, you deserve a sandwich.

[Elena Passarello]

Yes, yes. Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

I feel like that should be their new slogan. Kenny and Ziggy's. You deserve a sandwich. But anyway, that's gotta be the best tasting pastrami sandwich anyone's ever had in their life, right after going through all that.

[Elena Passarello]

Yes, yes. The Marvelous Miss and Mr. Maker.

[Luke Burbank]

That's right. Oh, that's a good one. Yeah, exactly. So the survival of the Maker family is the best news that I heard all week. All right, let's invite our first guests on over to the show. They are the kind of siblings that your parents might trot out to demonstrate how maybe comparatively unaccomplished you and your siblings are. Like, maybe how if you only applied yourself or, you know, worked a little harder, you too could, like, go to med school or be the head writer on a late night talk show. I say that because that is exactly what these two siblings have been doing. To make matters even worse, they've also collaborated now on a really well received book. It's called T Shirt Swim Club, which explores their lives of being fat in a world that was built for thin people. Take a listen to this. It's our friend Ian Carmel and his sister, Dr. Aliza Carmel, recorded at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. Hello, you two.

[Monet X Change]

Hello.

[Luke Burbank]

Welcome to the program. Aliza, welcome to the show for the first time.

[Dr. Aliza Carmel]

Thank you.

[Luke Burbank]

I'm just curious, whose idea was the idea of collaborating on the book? It seems like the kind of thing that might be said at Thanksgiving after two extra wines. That's right. We should totally do some kind of book project. But then you followed up on it. How did this actually come about?

[Monet X Change]

I remember walking around my backyard on the phone with you. Yeah. And being like, we had both. You know, we grew up fat. We still. I still consider myself fat. I think we're. Yeah, we're fat people.

[Luke Burbank]

Right? People.

[Monet X Change]

But we. We were even fatter. And we had, you know, I needed to lose weight for medical reasons. I was healthier. I got to a healthier weight. Aliza also, I mean, for the same reason. And we were talking and we were just like, this is a pretty. You know, you're a doctor, I'm a standup comedian. It's a pretty interesting way we dealt with our childhood traumas of being fat. Me by becoming a comedian, her by doing the opposite of that. And we were just talking on the phone. It was like, I think we might have something to say here. I think we should write a book. And so ultimately, it was my agent's idea. Yeah, absolutely.

[Luke Burbank]

Aliza, did you feel like because Ian had already processed his trauma into comedy, you had no choice but to process your trauma into a totally different job life?

[Dr. Aliza Carmel]

I mean, it's like I'm still processing it. Right. I mean, I think it's a lifelong experience, which is the important part. Right. Is to be able to acknowledge what's going on now, what's gone on, and how you want it to look different. And I think those conversations that we were having, that conversation in particular, which I also remember, really highlighted that having hope and support and connection through that fatness and through that experience actually makes it a lot better, because it can be lonely.

[Luke Burbank]

I think you write in the book, Ian, that you didn't talk about it a lot as kids, but how did weight show up in your relationship, in the household?

[Monet X Change]

I think the wonderful thing about our household is that it didn't really. It was kind of the one place on the planet where we didn't have to contend with that, where there wasn't any real shame based around eating or anything like that. It was like kind of the one place in the world where it didn't suck to be fat.

[Dr. Aliza Carmel]

I also didn't realize that we were dealing with it at the same time, which was kind of fun to find out while we wrote this book is, oh, wow. We were having some similar experiences and we weren't talking about it. Let's talk about it now. And so I think writing the book was us finally talking about it.

[Luke Burbank]

Wow. Like 30 years later or 30 years later.

[Monet X Change]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

That seems like kind of an intense revelation to have in adulthood that you were both kids, young people, feeling these feelings and not connecting over it.

[Monet X Change]

I mean, not to overly dramatic. Use like, an overly dramatic metaphor here, but you kind of can't talk about the hurricane while you're in the hurricane, right? It's mostly just trying to survive it. You're like, grab that board and nail.

[Luke Burbank]

It against that window.

[Monet X Change]

Right? Hand me that T shirt. I'm gonna put it on. Nobody's gonna know I'm fat in the pool. Like, it's that kind of thing. So you're just, like, trying to deal with every fire as it comes. And it wasn't until we got a little space, the pandemic happened. So there was just some quiet to sit there and finally think about, like, oh, man, that really kind of shaped every aspect of our lives. And then you also start to look at, like, how being fat is portrayed in media and in popular culture, even with this, like, increasing wave of body positivity and body neutrality. But you still look around and, like, as a fat guy growing up as a kid, right, it was Fat Bastard Eric Cartman. And, you know, you get a little away from that. You think, oh, that's the 90s. It's going to be better. And now, you know, like, in the last like five years. What is it? It's like TLC schmaltz wash documentaries like My 600 Pound Life or It's the Biggest Loser, where we care about these fat people as long as they can help us sell Acuras, right? Like that. And then last year, it's like, it's Brendan Frazier, God bless him, a wonderful actor, someone who's dealt with body issues himself but are still putting on a fat suit to win an Oscar. You're either the butt of the joke or you're an object of pity and talking to each other and living our lives as fat people. We were like, that's not the truth. There's a lot of joy and there's a lot of wonderfulness in this. And there is also areas where it's good to have empathy and there aren't, like, sad and unfair things. But writing this, it's hard to speak for you if I am here, but like, we wanted it, like, there's this dream of having a fat doctor, right? Which you can, like, as a fat person, you dream of, like, going to the doctor and the doctor is fat. And they're like, I get it. You know what I mean? And like, we wanted to come to close, as close to that as possible, I think, being like, hey, we've been there. We understand it. Here is somebody who has shared your experience, but done so with, like, understanding, but also humor, empathy, and the advice of somebody with a doctorate in clinical psychology.

[Luke Burbank]

We're talking to Dr. Eliza Carmel and also stand up comic Ian Carmel. Boy, it really drops off fast when you say it that way.

[Zaynab Johnson]

That's huge.

[Luke Burbank]

I mean, I gotta say Ian's name first next time.

[Monet X Change]

It's a huge drop off. Dr. Eliza Carmel, a man who took seven years to graduate from Portland State University.

[Luke Burbank]

That's right.

[Monet X Change]

Yes, we did it. Yes, we did it. Beaverton.

[Luke Burbank]

And they have now collaborated on the new book T Shirt Swim Club Stories from Being Fat in a World of Thin People. We got to take a very quick break, but much more with them in just a moment here on livewire. Special thanks to our sponsor, Up Up Books, a Portland bookshop specializing in diverse authors, local writers, and independent presses. They're located across from Revolution hall in the Buckman neighborhood, and they offer a space for book clubs, workshops, and events. Check out their website and grab a [e-mail].

[McLeet]

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[Luke Burbank]

Special thanks to our sponsor, Hotel Crocodile, a hotel above the legendary Crocodile music venue in Seattle where you can rock roll and slide into bed. Interestingly, the Crocodile is where I saw most of my formative music shows growing up in Seattle. If you'd like to stay the night at the Hotel Crocodile, they've got you covered with 17 uniquely designed rooms. Or if you're just passing through, you can check out their ongoing music series called Lobby Sessions, an intimate concert series with artists you love and others you've yet to discover. Learn [e-mail] welcome back to Livewire. I'm Luke Burbank, here with Elena Passarella. We're at the Alberta Rhodes theatre in Portland, Oregon, and we're talking. We're talking to Ian Carmel and Dr. Eliza Carmel about their new book, T Shirt Swim Club Stories from Being Fat in a World of Thin People. The way that this book is kind of set up is it's a memoir piece from you, Ian, about your life. And then Dr. Carmel, it's you kind of taking a more clinical approach to it because of your training and your background to describe different elements of life as a fat person and how we tend to treat fat people in society. So you've got the kind of anecdotal side, you've got kind of the scientific side. What I'm curious is, when you were younger, how would you have wanted people to just relate to you? Like, what would have made Your life a little better.

[Dr. Aliza Carmel]

Yeah, for me, just out in the world, whether it was at school or, you know, on the street or whatnot, not being looked at strangely as if I was some alien being a fat person, like, it was always this, oh, when they would see me, whether, you know, it was a teacher, a friend, I mean, you name it, it was always that judgment. And then they would get to know me. Medically speaking, I had a lot of discrimination at appointments. Again, subtly, directly get on that scale. Those eyes from the providers, you know, let's get a wait today. And then all of a sudden, we're talking about something that had nothing to do with my visit. So I wish that those experience didn't happen, but I also think that there's opportunity to improve. Improve those, which is what I wrote about.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah.

[Monet X Change]

So, yeah, I just think, like, I mean, basic humanity. I think. I mean, if there's no way to stop it from happening at all, like, especially when you're a kid, you know, like, it's such an insecure time for children because, like, they will latch on to whatever insecurity you have and exploit it. Because children are terrified, right? They're running around terrified, and they're like, someone's gonna notice me, so I better latch on and make fun of this person first. And fat people wear their insecurities on their outside of their body, right. I mean, you can't help but notice that it's right there, you know, the thing for people to latch onto. So, I don't know, I think, like, body neutrality is the thing that I keep coming back to where it's just like, don't mention it at all.

[Luke Burbank]

But what if I have a great diet that I think you should try?

[Monet X Change]

Oh, that's good, actually.

[Luke Burbank]

What if I have a friend who had some real success with a particular. I mean, that I should probably share with you, right, that.

[Monet X Change]

Well, sometimes you do get that. Yeah, sometimes you do get that. And, I mean, nobody knows how to lose weight more than a fat person because we've heard every single diet that has ever existed.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, I was wondering, could you give me a quick rundown of the various diets that both of you took on in your lifetime?

[Dr. Aliza Carmel]

Where's Mom?

[Monet X Change]

Oh, my God. We did, like, a childhood Weight Watchers, which was like Cub Scouts for Weight Watchers. We did something like that. I've done, like, an all juice diet, the Fat, Sick and Nearly Dead juice reboot where I was touring as a standup comedian. So I was, like, putting a Breville juicer through security at the airport. And they were like, why, if you're.

[Luke Burbank]

At your actual kitchen, those are impossible to wash. I'm imagining you in a Hampton Inn somewhere in Des Moines trying to wash.

[Monet X Change]

Your Breville in a motel next to i5, playing a club in Tacoma. Like, trying to wash the blades of a Breville juicer. And then going on stage and cramping because my body's been like, we've had nothing but cucumber for 72 hours, I think. I mean, we've tried everything. I tried Atkins, which. That was more fun, but also didn't work. The thing about diets, I think, I mean, what is it you always say?

[Dr. Aliza Carmel]

Oh, it's that the diets fail, not the people.

[Luke Burbank]

Okay, can you unpack that a little bit?

[Dr. Aliza Carmel]

Yeah. Well, diets aren't personalized. That's what's tough. I mean, they give you some prescription of this is what you need to do, and this is how you need to do it.

[Zaynab Johnson]

Go figure.

[Macleet]

Figure it out.

[Dr. Aliza Carmel]

And sometimes there's a coach or sometimes there's somebody who can try and help you or weigh you once a week, but they're not with you through the stressors. They're not with you to identify why you are eating. It's not addressing the reason. It's just addressing the food, which we all know how to eat. We really know how to eat. Most of us know how to eat. That's something you learn. It's basic. But it's more complicated than that. And the diet industry doesn't really speak to that intentionally.

[Monet X Change]

And also anything. It works as long as you're on it. If I would have just kept drinking green juice, I, you know, I wouldn't be sitting here right now. It'd be like holding onto a dandelion talking to you.

[Luke Burbank]

I think you'd be pushing up daisies. You literally wouldn't be here on the planet.

[Monet X Change]

No, I wouldn't. Yeah. So you think you.

[Luke Burbank]

You're of the opinion, and you both have really had a lot of personal experience with this, that the industry doesn't necessarily want people to actually have success with these things, because then I guess there's nothing for them to keep selling you.

[Dr. Aliza Carmel]

Yeah, they. They like those customers. They got to keep them coming. And if you do it right, then you don't need them anymore.

[Luke Burbank]

I don't want to put either or both of you in an awkward spot, but I am curious because of the book and because of the topic. If you have thoughts on semi glutides and, like, ozempic and wegovy and Things like that.

[Dr. Aliza Carmel]

I think it's a tool, they're new tools. So I think that there's still a lot to be known, a lot to be figured out. There's still research happening currently, but I think that if you can use the tool in the way that it needs to be used, then it's an option. The issue is that a lot of folks are using them without understanding the risks and without understanding how to use them properly and what it requires, lifestyle wise, which is the same thing for diets. So I think that they can be really helpful for folks, but I think they need to understand what's going on before they just jump on board and kind of blindly say, oh, this is my next diet.

[Monet X Change]

Yeah. I also want to say nobody has to lose weight and you can be fat and you can be fat and healthy and you can be healthy at all sorts of different ways. And I think that's a wonderful thing. And I think that's also a very important thing to point out. We didn't write a diet book at all. We wanted to write a book about being fat and what that feels like and things, you know, people reading it, hopefully either knowing there's other people who've gone through it out there, or maybe people reading it and being like, oh, I didn't realize this. I didn't realize this is what people were going through. The way I feel about, like Ozempic or any of those other drugs is like, I mean, so I like, Listen, I weighed 420 pounds when I was at my unhealthiest. And I was also drinking to excess and I was doing drugs and you know, I was treating a real triple threat. I was a real triple threat. A real triple bypass threat. Yeah. And I, you know, I was, I was really, I was very, very unhealthy. And when you weigh that much weight and you go into the doctor and the conversation is starting at bariatric surgery, they're like, so let's just operate the. Under the assumption that that's what we're going to be doing, you know, in six months, a year, whatever. It can feel hopeless. Like the doctor can say, hey, you need to lose 200 pounds. And I'm like, great, I'll climb Mount Everest. And while I'm up there, you know what I mean? I'll invent like some sort of ultra compression software that makes me a billionaire. At the same time, that feels equally likely. So if you're the kind of person who needs to lose that or would like to lose that much weight for your Blood pressure or, you know, the impact on your heart, that kind of thing. I think a drug like that can be wonderful. My fear with anything, whether it is a quick fix diet, like all juice or Ozempic or anything like that, is you are, like Eliza said, not dealing with the underlying issues of why you seek comfort in excess eating or in eating things that are unhealthy for you. For me, a big part of it was anxiety, and I could go on Ozempic and Ozempic would not treat my anxiety or the fact that I find comfort in eating right. So if you go on it, it works. As long as you're on it. The second you go off it, you haven't addressed any of those underlying issues. Those still exist. So it becomes a lifetime pharmaceutical, which, listen, if it's that or blood pressure medication, and you would have given me that choice five, ten years ago, maybe I would have taken Ozempic. I happen to go the blood pressure medication route and I'm currently on it now. But, like, you know, I think it's just a matter of, are you doing this in concert with learning the origin of your disordered eating? If that is indeed what it is.

[Luke Burbank]

This is livewire radio from PRX. We're talking to Ian Carmel and Dr. Eliza Carmel about their new book, T Shirt Swim Club. This is not a weight loss book, and this is not an interview about, like, losing weight or how to lose weight or anything like that. I am curious, though, Ian, particularly for you, because you are somebody who were going through the world in one sort of body, and that changed it pretty radically. And I'm curious what your experience is like, comparing the two versions of moving through the world.

[Monet X Change]

There are so many more kinds of pants than I knew about, and there's some pitfalls there. I have a pair of, like, pants covered in. In, like, palm trees and coconuts that I bought, like, right after I lost the weight. And I was like, this is the guy I am now. And with the pants or any other kind of thing, the person I am, like, didn't change, you know, Like, I. The weirdest, when I look in the mirror, I see the same dude, you know, And I.

[Luke Burbank]

And I said, you almost called this book, what, forever Fat?

[Monet X Change]

Yeah, because I think you are. I think that's a relation. You have that relationship with yourself and with your. And with your health and with your eating for the rest of your life. There's not some number you hit on the scale and confetti pops out and they're like, you can eat pie again. Like, that's not any. It's a relationship you have the rest of your life. The weirdest change for me was up on stage doing stand up comedy where I had, you know, developed a defense mechanism of making jokes as a fat kid on, you know, at recess forever ago, and turned that self defense mechanism into a career. And then all of a sudden I was on stage after having lived 35 years as a fat person telling jokes about fat people. And I'm like, why aren't they laughing? They used to laugh, right? Oh, no. Did people become good? You know, do people not laugh at fat people anymore? What a million. It looks like a Twilight Zone episode. But then I got off stage after this one show down in LA and this woman came up to me and she was like, hey, I don't think you should tell jokes like that anymore. And, you know, I talked, you know, she like, kind of had followed me for my career and she was like, I know how you think they're coming up, but like you're. The audience doesn't see that person anymore, which was such a strange thing for me because I still feel like that person inside. I can't erase that 35 years of lived experience. And that's been a weird part of like the maintenance phase after, you know, quote unquote, of losing weight too. So mostly the pants and stand up comedy. And.

[Luke Burbank]

And I want to mention, for people that can't see, Ian, you're a very fashionable person, and so I think it's reasonable that you might take a few swings and misses on pants.

[Monet X Change]

Boy, some big cuts, dude. Big Shohei Ohtani, you know, just like. Sure, absolutely. No, can I have a. I. I bought like a cream. This isn't what the interview's about, but just like a full sort of like Hare Krishna at the airport cream, almost like jumpsuit kind of thing. Yeah, I wore. I wore it once and then I saw myself in the mirror and I. Oh, my God, that was it. That was. I think that was rock bottom for me, weirdly. Like, it wasn't the drugs, the alcohol or anything like that. It was seeing myself dressed like George Harrison in a nosh rum.

[Luke Burbank]

Aliza. I'm wondering for you as a doctor and somebody who is very tuned into the mental and emotional side of weight for people. How do you talk to people about their bodies in a way that doesn't make them feel like their bodies have to look a certain way?

[Dr. Aliza Carmel]

Yeah, I mean, driving that point home takes quite a bit. It just depends on where folks are with their bodies. A lot of people really want to accept their body, but they don't think they can until it's a certain way. And whether that's the weight or a size or just some part of their appearance, it's very attached to that. So we do a lot of work of detaching from that. What are other ways that you can embrace your worth? What are other ways that you can evaluate yourself that are actually more meaningful than your appearance and also love yourself as a fat person? It's actually an awesome person. Let's talk about that. And really helping people identify what they like about themselves despite all the hate that they feel.

[Luke Burbank]

I read a lot of books for this job.

[Monet X Change]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

But I have to say, this book has the greatest dedication of any book that I have ever read in the history of library. Ian, could you read it? I happen to have it right here.

[Monet X Change]

Somebody said, aww. Like they're about. You're not about to hear something sweet. All right.

[Dr. Aliza Carmel]

I'm glad you were reading it, too.

[Monet X Change]

Dedicated to all the fat kids. It gets butter. Better. Sorry? Better. It gets better.

[Dr. Aliza Carmel]

That's it.

[Elena Passarello]

Yes.

[Monet X Change]

That is Ian Carmelo.

[Luke Burbank]

Dock there. He's a Carmelo. The book is T shirt swim club. It's a great book. Everybody go get it. Thank you for coming on Livewire. That was comedian Ian Carmel and his sister, Dr. Eliza Carmel. Their new book, t shirt swim club Stories from being fat in a world of thin people, is available now. Hey. Special thanks this episode to John Barkhurst of Portland, Oregon, and Alicia Harris of Oakland, California. John and Alicia are part of the livewire member community, and they are generously supporting our show with a donation each month. And we are way thankful for that because it is how we are able to keep Livewire going. So a big thanks to Alicia and John for supporting the program. This is livewire. As we like to do each week, we have asked the listeners a question because we're talking siblings on the show this week, we asked what is the most ridiculous argument you've had with your sibling or siblings? Alaina has been collecting up those responses. What are you seeing?

[Elena Passarello]

Okay, so this one is from Heather. Heather and Heather's sibling have an ongoing war, apparently about the big salad that's made to sort of send across the table at family dinners. Heather says, I like tomatoes and hate cucumbers, and she's vice versa. I once angrily dumped a huge bowl of tomatoes into the salad, and in retribution, she immediately dumped in a huge bowl of cucumbers. So they're just fighting each other over salads?

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, over Very common salad ingredients.

[Elena Passarello]

And they're making the salads more delicious in their combat, which I appreciate. If I was another member of that family, I'd be like, great.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. I'd pick a fight with someone who likes to put, you know, like parmesan cheese on a salad. Just keep making it so that to get back at everyone, everyone's just adding more delicious ingredients to the salad throughout the meal. Right.

[Elena Passarello]

Like high quality balsamic vinegar.

[Luke Burbank]

Right? Yeah, exactly. What's another silly argument that someone's had with a sibling?

[Elena Passarello]

Oh, this one's great. From Sarah. Sarah says, my sister and I fought ruthlessly in all caps over who could be Baby Spice. I'm assuming they were much younger. This was in the 90s. Sarah says she always tried to make me be Ginger. And then when Ginger left the Spice Girls, she said I couldn't sing with her anymore. Well, you know, when you grow up with no siblings, you have to be all five Spice Girls.

[Luke Burbank]

That explains a lot about you.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah, Elena, it really does.

[Luke Burbank]

I'm just imagining you in your room being all of the Spice Girls. Okay. Another family dispute with a sibling that really is not that big of a deal.

[Elena Passarello]

This one's great from Jane. Very simple. Jane says when there are three siblings, the arguments are all about the wishbone.

[Luke Burbank]

Do we still do that in this modern social media era? Because that was a big thing when I was a kid. You know, it's like you would wait and then to get your hands on that wishbone.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah, I hope it's still a thing. I mean, what do you do if.

[Luke Burbank]

You'Re eating a tofurkey, doesn't have a wishbone? They need to work on that.

[Elena Passarello]

That's a good idea, actually.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, seriously, somebody should do that. Make a plant based wishbone to go in the plant based turkey so that we can get the full experience. Well, thank you to everyone who wrote in a response to our listener question this week. We've got one for next week's show coming up at the end of today's program, so stay with us for that. In the meantime, our next guests comedies draws on her pretty unique life experiences growing up in Harlem as one of 13 siblings in a black Muslim family. You've heard her on. Wait, wait, don't tell me you've seen her on TV on Late Night with Seth Meyers and Last Comic Standing. She's also an actor and a series regular on the Amazon hit Upload from Greg Daniels. And her very first one hour comedy special Hijabs off is now available on Amazon Prime Video. Take a listen to Zainab Johnson on stage at the Patricia Reeser center for the Arts in Beaverton, Oregon.

[Zaynab Johnson]

Oh, thank you. Hi, Portland. I do have a special called Hijabs Off. I named it that because I'm always talking about, like, oh, I'm Muslim. And when I post things about being Muslim, I'll get like, you know, hate from, like, other Muslims online. Like, oh, you're not Muslim. You don't even cover your hair. I'm like, well, this is a wig. So technically my name is Zaynab, but that, that kind of gives it away because Zaynab is like a very Arabic name. Like, super. It's interesting to me because it just, it's just a two syllable name, but people mispronounce it all the time. Like, sometimes it's something like that makes sense, like Dana, you know, or Xena. Right. But sometimes it's like Zimbutu, which. Where'd you get those letters from? Right. The thing about it is, because I don't cover up anymore. And, you know, I present. It's just like a black woman. You know, Sometimes when I meet Middle Eastern men, they want to tell me about Zaynab because Zaynab is such an esteemed name. The Prophet's wife, her name was Zaynab. You know, Zab is the reason Muslim women have to cover up. And so they want me to know Zainab. Do you know Zainab? Do you know Z? They tell me their family history. My mother's name is Zainab. My first, my second, my third wife's name is Z. Do you? I'm like, yes, Muhammad, I know. Drive the Uber. Come on. I gotta get to the airport. Coincidentally, one of my younger brother's name is Muhammad. We have different last names, actually. My name is Zainab Johnson and my younger brother's name is Abdul Rahim. His name is Muhammad Abdul Rahim. Same parents. I probably should say this. My parents had 13 kids. I know my mom's vagina, right? I mean, it deserves something more than us, you know? Like, I mean, it's like I say it and people are, well, I didn't even do it. I'm like, yeah, my mom has 13 kids. And they're like, oh. I'm like, it wasn't even me, but okay. I feel like my last little brother. My mom was just sweeping the floor, and then he came out, just picked them up and kept sweeping. But as much as, you know, we have the same two parents, which I brag about, like, even as a kid, Like I knew that that was like a, you know, a thing to be proud of. Like even when I got teased in school, they'd be like, oh, you know, did you get an A on a test? I'd be like, no, but I know my father. So. But the reason why these same two people had, you know, gave birth to 13 of us and we have different last names is because I'm one of the first six and my dad's last name is Johnson. And my parents, although Muslim, they were converted. And so they decided after the sixth kid to like, they should, you know, that we should all have Muslim Islamic last names. And as much as we all had Johnson at first, my parents were like, you know what, let's go down to city hall and let's, you know, get our kids names changed. And my mom went down to city hall, told the clerk, hey, we're Muslim, we'd like to change our kids names. And the clerk was like, that's great, it's going to be a million dollars. How Muslim are you? My parents were like, you know what, we'll just name the new kids the Muslim name. And so that's how one of my younger brothers ended up with Mohammed Abdul Rahim, which is a weighted name. He never flies anywhere. He took a boat to London, just magic school, busted across the Atlantic. It's rough. I realized it, cause like, you know, this is normal for us. This is how we grew up. And so an experience made me realize how weighted of a name he had. Some years ago I was trying to Western Union him $100 and we got flagged by the US Treasury. They had shut my checking account down. They had made us submit paperwork and like notarized stuff to prove that our Muhammad Abdul Rahim wasn't the Muhammad Abdurrahim, that the US doesn't do business. And I was so shocked because I thought terrorism cost more than $100. You know, I thought you needed oil money, but I guess just canola, right? I am not, I get this question, especially now as I, as I get older, people are like, you know, are you going to have, you know, a lot of kids like your parents did? It's like, no, of course not. This point is too late. You know, I, I, I will not have 13. I, I won't have one either. I think 13 is better than one is a lot of pressure on the kid, you know, it's a lot of pressure on the kid. A lot of pressure on a parent. You know, imagine you have one kid, only one kid. That kid is A murderer.

[Elena Passarello]

Right.

[Zaynab Johnson]

And so now you're just a murderer's mama. You know, it's just. You have 13 kids, and only one is a murderer. You did good, right? Anybody tries to call out your murderer, you like, wait, we got four doctors. It seems like we're saving more lives than we're taking. My parents do have a good variety. They have a comedian. They have an engineer. We have a teacher. We have a lawyer. Oh, we have a gold digger. Oh, my sister, she loves her husband's money. She loves it. My sister's husband is actually a doctor. And because he's a doctor, my sister thinks she's a doctor. Which that math does not ma. I don't know. I think that's like, gold digger math. And she introduces herself. It's like, Dr. Mrs. Yeah, imagine my. I'm the sister of the doctor Mrs. I was so afraid because one day we were on a flight and just like tv, I didn't even think this happened. But it happened on a very short flight for us where they were looking for a medical professional. And my sister was ambitious. I have never punched my sister in the chest so hard. I was like, sit down. As much as we have, like, a really good variety, the thing that we don't have is a gay kid.

[Elena Passarello]

I know.

[Zaynab Johnson]

I was shocked, because, I mean, here's the thing. Regardless of how anybody feels about it, we got the numbers right. Just statistically, right. We don't have to think about it in any other way. Just statistically, one in every five Americans is gay. One in every five. We got 13. You do the math. We should have two, right? We should have two and a half. We should have two in a bisexual, right? Technically, we don't know who it is, though. I wish it were me. We don't. And the thing about it is, you know, you get excited every time a closet door opens. We're, like, looking, and then it's like, oh, you just getting a coat. Okay.

[Luke Burbank]

Ugh.

[Zaynab Johnson]

I'm saying that, you guys. Thank you.

[Luke Burbank]

That was Zainab Johnson right here on Livewire. Her comedy special, Hijabs off, is now available on Amazon Prime Video. I'm Luke Burbank. That's Elena Passarello right over there. We've got to take a very quick break, but don't go anywhere. When we come back, we're going to hear some Ethio jazz from San Francisco's one and only McLeet. Stay with us. Livewire is sponsored by Secret Aardvark hot sauce, celebrating 20 years of awesome sauce, plus a whole line of hot sauces and marinades. From their classic aardvark habanero hot sauce to their fiery reaper smoked and red scorpion. There's a sauce for every heat lover. Stay connected by following secret aardvark on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok for recipes, hot sauce fun and more. Welcome back to Livewire. I'm Luke Burbank here with my pal Alayna Passarello. Okay, before we get to our musical guest, a little preview of what we are doing on the show next week. And it's kind of a biggie. We are launching a new limited series podcast on January 1st. It is called Damp January. You know, kind of like Dry January, which is when people give up booze and stuff, but we're not actually giving up the booze. This one is damp, as the name would indicate. What it is is a series of interviews with authors and comedians and podcasters, folks like Moshe Kesher, Gary Steingart, Nora McInerney, all folks who have different kinds of relationships to and with alcohol. So next week on the radio show, we are going to play you an excerpt from the very first episode of Damp January where I talk to my actual mother, Susie Burbank, to find out, like, what her deal has been with drinking in her life and also kind of like what my family history is. Spoiler alert. Not great. We're also gonna be talking to Adam Gopnik on the show, not about drinking, but about his book, the Real work on the mystery of mastery. And we are going to have some music from one of our all time faves, Dessa. So make sure you tune in for that. This is Livewire from prx. Our musical guest this week mixes the sounds of East Africa and the Bay Area in her work. She's also a TED Senior fellow whose talk the Unexpected Beauty of Everyday Sounds has been viewed over 1.2 million times. Her latest EP, Ethio Blue, is available now. Take a listen to McLeet, recorded live at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. Hey.

[Elena Passarello]

Hey.

[Luke Burbank]

Welcome back to the show.

[Macleet]

Well, I feel very welcome. Thank you for having me.

[Luke Burbank]

It's so nice. It's been a little while. This new album, if I understand right, you wrote it a little while ago.

[Macleet]

Yes, that's true.

[Luke Burbank]

What was the time between the writing of it or the creation of it and then putting it together as an album and putting it out?

[Macleet]

Well, I wrote most of the songs in 2019 when I was very, very, very pregnant and even recorded when I was pregnant. And, you know, people used to tell me, like, don't ever record when you're pregnant because the baby will be pressing on your lungs. But no. Oh, it was all freedom, you know, recording.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, yeah. I've been hearing you on the world. I've been hearing this project that you have called Movement, which is a podcast, a radio show, a live event. It sounds like you're really kind of getting a little close to our scene, which I feel slightly threatened by.

[Macleet]

Oh, my God.

[Luke Burbank]

But talk about movement and kind of.

[Macleet]

What that looks like for all of us. Movement is really thinking about immigration, migration, and music and the music that immigrant communities are innovating. And it's really thinking about different ways of developing narratives of migration. Like a lot of times when we talk about immigration, we focus on either narratives specifically of a border crossing or these points of trauma. And it's not that we want to ignore those or look away from them, but we believe that by really centering on the cultural power that is coming out of immigrant communities, we can make spaces for us to experience our ways of knowing, our ways of being and being able to put those ways of being in relationship to each other. So we uplift the songs and stories of immigrant, migrant, and refugee musicians. And my underground tagline for it is the bump in soundtrack to a radically diverse world.

[Elena Passarello]

Nice.

[Luke Burbank]

Nice. Well, speaking of soundtracks, let's hear a song. What are we going to hear?

[Macleet]

We are going to hear the title track of my new ep, Ito Blue, accompanied by the genius cabron Berhani.

[Zaynab Johnson]

Woo hoo.

[Luke Burbank]

Woo.

[Macleet]

Yes.

[Luke Burbank]

All right. This is McLeod on Livewire.

[Macleet]

Transatlantic rivers run currents pushed us past the sun Music pulsed and beaten flew the music bleeds ETO blue.

[Luke Burbank]

Filled our.

[Macleet]

Veins Made us this way Music.

[Luke Burbank]

And.

[Macleet]

The scar Hallelujah trumps out of me and I say thank you, God for the music. You know it came from so much alive from calloused hands they played instruments when they were done with the soul for the day and the shepherds playing.

[Zaynab Johnson]

Flute for the animals the wind of.

[Macleet]

The ban Jos they give sustenance to each other with the melo days we still hear you we still hear you.

[Monet X Change]

We are listening.

[Macleet]

Oh brown skin love including scars Cell by cell Distilled from star music Rose and bloom and blue now it's ours Etio Blue.

[Monet X Change]

Blue.

[Luke Burbank]

That was McLeet right here on Livewire. Make sure you check out her latest episode, Ethio Blue. That's gonna do it for this week's episode of Livewire. A huge thanks to our guests, Ian Carmel Aliza, Carmel Zainab Johnson, and McLeet.

[Elena Passarello]

Laura Hadden is our executive producer, Heather D. Michel is our executive director, and our producer and editor is Melanie Savchenko. Leona Kinderman and Evan Hoffer are our technical directors and our house sound is by Dee Neal Blake. Trey Hester is our assistant editor, and Becky Phillips is our intern. Our house band is Sam Tucker, Ethan Fox, Tucker, Al Alves, and A. Walker Spring, who also composes our music. This episode was mixed by Molly Pettit and Trey Hester.

[Luke Burbank]

Additional funding provided by the Regional Arts and Culture Council. Livewire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week we'd like to thank members John Barkhurst of Portland, Oregon and Alicia Harris of Oakland, California. For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast, head on over to livewireradio.org I'm Luke Burbank for Elena Passarello and the whole Livewire crew. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week. Hey there, Livewire listeners. Luke Burbank here. You know how a lot of people like ring in the new year with a cheers or a toast? That's pretty common. Well, something kind of special is happening here at Livewire this month as we have entered 2025, we have launched a brand new limited podcast series. It's called Damp January. Throughout the month, we are going to be going on like a little journey to try to better understand our relationship with alcohol. And by that I mean my relationship with alcohol and also drinking culture at large. It's such a big part of our society and we wanted to find out more about sort of how it's working for people. We're going to talk to friends and family and cultural luminaries who are just at various points on the booze spectrum. By the way, just a practical heads up, you're gonna see the Livewire podcast logo change to something new. This is just for the month of January. Do not worry. The regular Livewire episodes that you know and love and crave are still gonna be in your feed every Friday. It's just gonna be alongside a Damp January episode that's gonna drop every Friday, Wednesday. We have never tried anything like this before, but I think it is a really interesting project. Like, if somebody else made this show, I would listen to it, okay? But nobody else did. So we're making it and we hope it's interesting to you. It's called Damp January and it's every Wednesday in January.

[Elena Passarello]

From prx.