Melissa Febos, Evan Ratliff, and Tropa Magica

Summary

Below is a detailed summary of this episode of Live Wire with Luke Burbank and co-host Elena Passarello from PRX. The episode, released on August 15, 2025, blends personal narrative, wide-ranging cultural discussion, and innovative technology experimentation. In this episode, host Luke introduces writer Melissa Febos, journalist Evan Ratliff, and musical performance by Tropa Mahica, while also sharing quirky “best news” stories that remind listeners that good things are happening in the world.

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1. Episode Overview
   • Main Theme:
    – The episode focuses on personal reinvention, sexual abstinence as a path to self-discovery (Melissa Febos’s experiment and memoir, The Dry Season), and our evolving relationship with AI technology (Evan Ratliff’s Shell Game project).
    – The show interweaves cultural observations with lighthearted listener anecdotes and live musical interludes.

────────────────────────────── 2. Introduction & “Best News” Segment (00:02–04:53)
• Luke Burbank opens by previewing the diverse topics:
 – Melissa Febos’s experiment with celibacy, resulting in “her most erotic year.”
 – Journalist Evan Ratliff’s AI project, in which he created an AI version of himself that chats with friends, family—and even his therapist.
• Best News Stories:
 – From Victoria, Australia: Two adorable “paddle pups” (Kip and Moss) trained to ride stand-up paddle boards and help track elusive platypus habitats (02:58–04:13).
 – A humorous California story about a chiropractor mom using diminishing payments under her child’s pillow for the Tooth Fairy, leading to an email exchange by a pediatric dentist (04:13–06:49).
• The segment, full of quirky details and playful banter, sets the tone by celebrating the strange and delightful news from across the globe.

────────────────────────────── 3. In Conversation with Melissa Febos – The Dry Season (08:29–14:09 and 15:18–22:51)
• Context & Background:
 – Melissa Febos, an acclaimed writer whose work has appeared in The New Yorker and the New York Times Magazine, discusses her new memoir, The Dry Season: A Memoir of Pleasure in a Year Without Sex.
 – The experiment began as a 90‑day celibacy trial, sparked by a painful breakup and years of relentless people-pleasing habits.
• Key Discussion Points:
 – The initial idea of celibacy emerged after a “horrible breakup” (09:06) and an ongoing pattern of “invisible labor” in relationships.
 – Melissa reflects on growing up in a culture that equates being a “good partner” with self-sacrifice. She needed to redefine love and explore self-esteem independently.
 – The memoir discusses her battles with thinking of her romantic life as the only place to find passion, ultimately discovering that everyday moments—from cleaning her closet to savoring a perfectly ripe raspberry—are also profoundly erotic (20:49–21:36).
• Historical & Research Insights:
 – Melissa talks at length about the Beguines—medieval lay religious women who lived outside traditional church structures, embraced celibacy, and found refuge from a patriarchal society (16:38–17:52).
 – For Melissa, researching other celibate lives was both a form of escape and a brilliant way to understand her own longstanding patterns as a people pleaser.
• Notable Quotes & Moments:
 – “[My therapist said,] ‘You can’t get enough of a thing that you don’t need.’” (11:07) – a line that haunted her and compelled her introspection.
 – Melissa recounts the epiphany when an acquaintance remarked, “people pleasing is people using,” a moment that almost blew her mind (12:07–12:14).
 – In discussing the evolution of her experiment, Melissa reveals the unexpected twist of falling in love and meeting her now wife—even though she initially tried to leave that chapter out of the book (22:04–22:09).

────────────────────────────── 4. In Conversation with Evan Ratliff – The AI Experiment & Shell Game (26:18–43:12)
• Concept and Origin of the AI Project:
 – Evan Ratliff explains his inventive experiment from his podcast Shell Game, where he created an AI “chat agent” that uses his voice and demeanor to interact with unsuspecting people (29:31–31:01).
 – Motivated by the constant hype around AI advancements and a desire to “replace himself” before the technology replaced him, Evan’s project was both playful and provocative.
• Experiment Details & Ethical Questions:
 – Initially, the chatbot was used to make prank calls (e.g., reaching out to customer service lines) showing how good it was at generating spontaneous conversation (31:20–32:00).
 – Gradually, Evan fed his personal biography into the system, allowing the AI to mimic not just his voice but also his quirks and habits—occasionally raising concerns when his friends noticed odd behavior (40:09–40:20).
 – There is a recurring theme of discomfort as real calls from the AI, such as those to a therapist or a friend (who was mistakenly called by the wrong nickname), underscore the fine line between engaging impersonation and unsettling mimicry (39:17–40:09).
• Dialogue with the AI:
 – In a live onstage demonstration (34:30–38:45), the chatbot humorously answers questions. For example, when asked if it enjoyed conversing with scammers and customer service agents, it wryly compared the situation to “endless hold music” and the crossroads between absurdity and human experience.
 – Funny aside: When Elena quizzed the AI “if it were a Twinkie, what would it fill itself with,” the chatbot replied with a quirky mix of existential curiosity, self-doubt, and a dash of “espresso cream” (37:38–38:20).
• Reflections and Concerns:
 – Evan discusses the implications of AI impersonators and the potential ethical need for clear disclosure when an AI is interacting with real people (42:46–43:12).
 – He contrasts the AI’s almost flawless cadence with its occasional “feckless” or overly enthusiastic delivery, emphasizing that human nuance remains difficult for machines to perfectly emulate.

────────────────────────────── 5. Live Musical Performance by Tropa Mahica (46:17–49:37)
• The musical set brings a burst of energy and fun:
 – Tropa Mahica, noted for capturing the spirit of 90s East LA, delivers their song “Price of Life” with a contagious vibe.
 – Despite a jokey conversation about starting a conga line, the band’s performance is both engaging and spirited, blending nostalgic influences with modern energy.
 – The performance is recorded live at the Patricia Research Center for the Performing Arts in Beaverton, Oregon, reinforcing the show’s connection to its local creative community.

────────────────────────────── 6. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
• From Melissa Febos:
 – “People pleasing is people using.” (12:07–12:14)
 – “I woke up gasping in the middle of the night thinking of the words of my therapist.” (11:07)
 – On celibacy and eroticism: “When I stopped doing that, I turned around and I found solace and erotic fulfillment in everything from a long phone conversation to tasting a ripe raspberry.” (20:49–21:36)
• From Evan Ratliff’s AI Chat Agent:
 – “If I were a Twinkie, I’d fill myself with existential curiosity, self-doubt, and a jolt of espresso cream.” (37:38–38:20)
 – His reflection on letting the AI call his friend, which led to discomfort when the chatbot misrepresented his tone and nickname (39:50–40:09).

────────────────────────────── 7. Conclusion and Preview of Future Episodes
• The episode wraps with playful banter among hosts and a look ahead to next week’s show.
 – Upcoming guests include celebrated runner Lauren Fleshman discussing her memoir and comedy writer Joey Clift talking about his new digital series “Gone Native.”
 – A brief show pledge and sponsor messages highlight the continuing support for live, locally recorded content.
• The episode underscores an ongoing curiosity about how technology (especially AI) is reshaping our lives, while also exploring deeply personal journeys of transformation and redefinition.

────────────────────────────── Overall Tone and Takeaways
• Live Wire, as usual, interweaves serious self-reflection with humorous observational chatter and spontaneous storytelling.
• Melissa Febos’s honest insights about love, recovery, and the complexity of people pleasing provide a thoughtful counterpoint to Evan Ratliff’s technologically mischievous experimentation.
• The blend of literary memoir with boundary-pushing AI discussion (and a lively musical interlude) makes this episode both intellectually engaging and immensely entertaining.

For anyone who hasn’t listened yet, this episode is a rich tapestry of narrative, humor, historical insight, and innovative tech exploration—showcasing just how diverse and dynamic the conversations on Live Wire with Luke Burbank can be. Enjoy the journey from medieval Beguines to today’s AI chat agents, all underscored by the music and wit that only Live Wire can deliver.

Transcript

[A]

Hey there. Welcome to Livewire. I'm your host, Luke Burbank. This week on the show, we are talking to the writer Melissa Febos about her book the Dry Season. Okay, here's how it started off. She said she was gonna try to stay celibate for 90 days, but she ended up actually going longer than a year and having a lot of self discovery. She's gonna talk about the medieval religious women known as the Beguines that she researched and also why she says it was her most erotic year and also how when she realized that for her, people pleasing was actually kind of people using. Then we're gonna talk to the journalist Evan Ratliff about his podcast Shell Game, where he created an AI version of himself and just, like unleashed it on his friends and family and even his therapist to see what their response would be. We're gonna hear from real Evan and also AI Evan, and trust me, it's really something. Then we're gonna have some music from Tropa Mahika. Lots to unpack this week. We're gonna gonna start doing it right after this. Hey, y'. All. Each week on the Sam Sanders show, we ask big questions and offer hot takes about the pop culture we're obsessed with. Like, should we be allowed to talk at the movie theater? Are stadium concerts boring now? Is it time to stop making bingeable tv? Join me and a bunch of comics and journalists and celebrities, and as we make sense of the zeitgeist, or at least make fun of it, the Sam Sanders show, wherever you get your podcast.

[B]

And on YouTube from PRX, it's live wire.

[A]

This week.

[B]

Writer Melissa Febos.

[C]

I don't know if any of you here are the kind of people that don't change until you are in acute pain, but I am one of those people. So I had to sort of ruin my life before I would take their advice.

[B]

Journalist Evan Ratliff.

[D]

To me, there are all of these larger questions that we need to deal with. Like, what does it mean for people to have AI companions that they talk to all day?

[B]

With music from Tropa Magica and our fabulous house band, I'm your announcer, Elena Passarello. And now the host of Livewire, Luke Burbank.

[A]

Hey, thank you so much, Orlando Passarello. Thanks to everyone for tuning in from all across this great United States. We have an amazing show in store for you, including a demonstration of AI that will chill you to your core. I'm still recovering from it. Coming up first, though, of course, we gotta kick things off with the best news we heard all week. This is our little reminder at the top of the show that yes, despite what you heard or how you feel, there is some good news happening somewhere on this planet. And we found it for you. Alayna, what's the best news you heard this week?

[B]

This comes from Victoria, Australia. There's a place called the Healesville Sanctuary where a conservation team is working to track and monitor and have as much information as they can about a lot of native endangered species down there. The team consists of several humans and two dogs.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Those dogs are known as the paddle Pups. Their names are Kip and Moss. They look like the goodest boys. They're species sniffers and they've been trained to go into sort of hard to reach areas and find animals in various Australian wildernesses. And, and recently they were put on a platypus mission to find the habitats, the eggs, the burrows of duck Bill platypuses in Victoria. And you know, we've known about platypuses for only a couple hundred years and what I read was that we've never actually seen one lay its eggs in the wild. Very mysterious animals. They live in creeks and wetlands, so it's often hard to trudge out there. It's even hard for a dog to get out there cause you can't just walk along the shoreline in these kind of marshy creeks. So, so what did they do? They trained Kip and Boss to ride on stand up paddle boards.

[A]

What? Oh, nar.

[B]

And if you go and look, if you go onto YouTube, you could find these videos of these two wonderful dogs. They're like magical, like looking leashes. And then there are humans in waders sort of on the paddle board with them. And they are getting more and more information about where these elusive platypodes were or platypuses live and getting a much better sort of map of this conservation area and how they can take care of them. Highly recommend checking out that video if you're having a bad day. There's something about a dog doing a job on a standboard. It's just gangbusters. Smile on your face. Instant karma. Greatness.

[A]

All right, well, from Australia to somewhere in California, my best news involves. Well, it starts out with a chiropractor that named Ashley Lee in California who made a mistake regarding the upbringing of her child Kayden. When Kayden lost his first tooth, Ashley put $100 under Caden's pillow. Not really thinking about how many future teeth were gonna be that when you.

[B]

Have a one toothed kid.

[A]

Yeah. And so as Kayden lost more teeth, Ashley was putting smaller and smaller amounts of money under the pillow, which started to cause Kayden to suspect that Ashley was the Tooth Fairy. So Ashley thought, well, why don't you ask the tooth fairy? And so Caden got on the computer and typed the tooth Fairy's email address into the Internet, which was probably, I don't know, like toothfairymail.com or something, something super general, and sent an email. This was the subject line of the email, all caps. I know it's you, Mom. Well, the tooth fairy emailed back, Elena, because the tooth Fairy is actually a pediatric dentist in Seattle named Dr. Purva Merchant, who years ago, when she was applying for dental school, her then boyfriend, now husband, created this email address, this tooth fairy email address for her just to sort of collate and collect up all of these different emails that she was sending and stuff related to her applications for dental school. And they're kind of vague in the story because she. She's already getting a lot of emails. So they don't actually give us the specific email, but she's got, like, whatever the email address is that you would think of if you were a child trying to email the tooth fairy.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And over the last 20 years, Dr. Merchant has received something like 6,000 emails addressed to the Tooth Fairy. And Elena, she has replied to each and every one of them.

[B]

Oh, that's the best. Is that the tooth? Are you telling the tooth?

[A]

That's. Believe you me, that's the God's honest tooth. And she always tells the kids from the tooth fairy to take very good care of their teeth. The new teeth, when they come in, to brush them and floss them and take good care. And she ends every message, Elena, with the same sign off. She says, happy growing up.

[B]

This is somebody I want drilling on my teeth. Someone this kind, this wise, this committed to making the world a better place. I think I could handle a filling or a root canal from that.

[A]

Absolutely. Well, you know, we do the show in Seattle a couple of times a year now. So maybe next time we're in Seattle, we can see if we can get Dr. Merchant on the show. If you're hearing this, Dr. Merchant, this is officially an invite. And we won't give out the email address, I promise, because you're already handling enough of them. That is the best news that I heard all week. All right, let's bring our first guest on over their latest book, the Dry Season. It details the solitude and freedom and maybe surprisingly, eroticism that she says she experienced when she decided to experiment with celibacy. The book has been called her most triumphant work to date, which is really saying something considering her previous work has won the National Book Critics Circle Award, and her writing has appeared in the Parish Review, the New Yorker, the New York Times Magazine, and lots of other places. This is our chat with Melissa Febos, who joined us live at the Alberta Rose Theatre in Portland, Oregon. Melissa, welcome back to Livewire.

[C]

Thanks for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

[A]

I found this book just to be absolutely fascinating, but I feel like we need to address. I don't know if it's the elephant in the room, but the fact that your initial plan for celibacy was 90 days. Right?

[C]

That's right. That's right.

[A]

Which happens to a lot of us without even planning on it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But I mean, it ends up being a very rich experience for you. And again, you explore this whole topic in such an interesting way. But what was the sort of precipitating events or incidents? What had you thinking? I want to try to be celibate for even as few as 90 days.

[C]

Sure, sure, sure. I had a horrible, horrible breakup in my early 30s. And I had been in nonstop sort of committed monogamous relationships since I was like 14 or 15 years old, so around 20 years. I'd also been in therapy most of that time as well. And I sort of looked around at my life in my early 30s and, you know, my friends were, like, getting married and stabilizing. And I thought, you know, I've definitely logged my 10,000 hours at this. I feel like I should be better at it by now. So. And, you know, I never had much of a break between things. And everyone in my life had been telling me for many, many years, you should definitely take a break. But I am, I don't know if any of you here are the kind of people that don't change until you are in acute pain.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But I am one of those people, so I had to sort of ruin my life before I would take their advice.

[A]

Well, and you're also somebody, and you've written about this extensively, who's been in recovery for a number of years. So you kind of had a framework. Right. For doing inventory and approaching this. But also what you point out in the book is it's not as neat as saying, well, I was also a sex and love addict.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's somewhere in between.

[C]

Yeah. And, you know, I think I went into it, I had been clean and sober from drugs and alcohol for over 10 years at that Point. And I wasn't sure. I thought this one relationship definitely sort of fit into that rubric. But not all of my relationships had. And I think I was secretly hoping that I was gonna sort of fit the description of a sex and love addict, because abstinence and recovery had worked really well for me. I just wanted to go get a solution and then move into the rest of my life. But it didn't turn out to be that simple for me. It really was sort of, how do I live in a culture that has its own problems with thinking about sex and love and sort of redefine that for myself so. So that I can go into the rest of my life.

[A]

There's a line in the book, I think you're maybe quoting, your therapist who said, this line just totally stopped me in my tracks. It said, you can't get enough of a thing that you don't need.

[C]

I'm haunted by it. Sometimes I wake up gasping in the middle of the night thinking of the words of my therapist. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, that just describes so many things, like, in my own life, and I think in the lives of a lot of us, where there's something about it being something that's not serving you, that. That also makes you sort of insatiable towards it.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. It's like I think of it sometimes when I'm sitting like a robot eating popcorn in the movie theater, feeling sick, but my hand is still moving. I am truly haunted by it. Yeah. There was actually another really disturbing line that someone said to me about my sort of history of romance. And anyway, I told them everything that had happened, sort of my patterns. And they said, melissa, I think you've sort of been using people. And I was like, I'm not a user. I'm a people pleaser. Here it comes. And my friend said, melissa, people pleasing is people using. And I almost fell out of my chair. I almost turned to ash. I was like, no, my self image was just. I sneezed and it blew away.

[A]

Because the idea is that we can sort of frame that in our own mind as like, oh, I just want everyone to be happy. But we're getting something out of that. Totally.

[C]

It's trying to manage and manipulate other people for my own emotional comfort. And really it's a lose, lose situation.

[A]

We're talking to Melissa Febos about her excellent new book, the Dry Season, where she embarked on a 90 day project to be celibate, which then expanded. How long did it end up being?

[C]

It ended up being over a year. Yeah, just over A year. It was 90 days, which is a familiar unit. I'm sure there are some folks in recovery in here. It's sort of thought of as the metric for. It's kind of a detox window, right? But I got a few days into it and I was having the best time of my life. Like I, you know, when you say celibacy or abstinence or even the dry season, which is the title of the book, you think of lack or deprivation. Or I was like, oh, maybe I'll never laugh again, but that's okay, you know? But almost immediately I was like, oh, I have so much time. I have so much energy. I started like cleaning out my closets and exercising like a maniac and having long, rambling phone conversations with my friends. And I was so happy. And I also knew that if I went back back without really consciously trying to change on the inside, that I would just pick up where I had left off. And so I spent another three months and another three months, and by the time I crossed the nine month mark, I was like, I don't need a deadline. I am never going to be with anyone again. When I thought about living with another person, I just wanted to. I was like, ew, no. Why would I let anyone into my space?

[A]

You're listening to Livewire from prx. We are talking to the writer Melissa Febos about her new book, the Dry Season, a Memoir of Pleasure in A Year Without Sex. Stick around. We have much more with Melissa, including why her editor yelled at her during the writing of this book, but why that actually made the book better. More on that in a moment. Stay with us. It's Livewire.

[C]

Hi, I'm Deborah Treisman, fiction editor of the New Yorker and host of the New Yorker Fiction Podcast. On the podcast, I ask a great contemporary writer to select a favorite story from the magazine's almost hundred year archive to read and discuss. Together we delve into the story, exploring its themes, its style, and what makes fiction work. You can listen to authors like Ottessa Moshfegh talk about why we write story, or attaching a story or creating a story is this inclination that we all have to stop spinning. And you can hear writers like George Saunders discuss the nature of storytelling on the first read.

[A]

You accept these things as descriptions and they make you see the scene. But every line is a chance to inflect the reader's mind.

[C]

You'll discover new favorite authors and read old favorites in new ways. Episodes of the New Yorker Fiction Podcast are released on the 1st of every month. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts.

[A]

Welcome back to livewire. I am your host, Luke Burbank, here with Elena Passarello. We are listening to a conversation we recorded with Melissa Febos, who talking about her latest book, the Dry Season. We recorded this in Portland, Oregon at the Alberta Rose Theater. Take a listen. What were you trying to change or at least understand about your wiring and about how you were being in the world?

[C]

Yeah, well, it went back to that people pleasing thing too. You know, I had always had the story about myself that I was like, I'm a romantic, I'm a passionate person. Sure, I'm doing a good job in all these other areas and my romantic life is extremely chaotic, but I'm just a passionate person, you know, And I've also grown up in a culture where everyone to some extent, but especially girls, are sort of taught that to be a good partner means to accommodate, means to be selfless, means to prove yourself lovable. And so I had done a lot of invisible labor. And this is after really a lifetime of being in therapy and calling myself a feminist and mostly dating women. And still there were all of these little elisions and manipulations and accommodations and contortions that ultimately made me sort of resentful and were unsustainable. And so I needed a new ideal. I needed to change my habits and I needed a new definition of love. And I really actually found that that year.

[A]

And one of the things that you delve into in the book is kind of history of celibacy. Can you talk about the Beguines?

[C]

I sure, I could talk all night about the beguines. So the beguines were this sect of religious lay women in the Middle Ages. They really kind of sprung up as a movement in the 13th century in Belgium and what is now France. And they were. They kind of lived as nuns, but they weren't under church rule. And so they would live collectively in these spaces called that were surrounded by these tall walls and they were sort of communally governed. They were able to own property. They preached, which was basically illegal at the time. Literacy was just spreading across Europe. And they were teachers and they took in orphans and they did activism and they made art. There are some very famous poets and painters who were beguines. Eventually, of course, they were burned as heretics, but they had a really good time before that. And they were celibate. But it was one of the only ways for women during that time period to have any other kind of life that wasn't basically domestic servitude. And you could leave an abusive marriage and go join the beguines, and they would take you in. And it was one of the only ways that women could do that.

[A]

Yeah, that hadn't occurred to me before reading the book, that that was. You know, there were those that were maybe called by God, but there was those that just didn't want to live under the. The patriarchy of that time, which, if we think it's bad now, you know.

[C]

I know it's actually such a helpful touchstone to have spent, like, five years reading about them, because I'm like, well, could be worse. We're not being burned yet. That I know of.

[A]

As of airtime listeners, we were not being burned. TBD on that one.

[B]

But you spent five years reading other texts about other celibate. Mostly women. Yeah. People. Where does that impulse come from when you're writing a book about yourself to go look at the other stuff that's happening across time?

[C]

I think it's mostly being a nerd, and I can't do surgery on myself. You know what I mean? And so it's just been a habit that I've had my whole life. Like, when I don't understand something, including my own choices, I go do research. And I think. And it's also just. And some of this comes from being a memoirist. And, you know, I specialize in writing about things that people generally don't talk about or hesitate to talk about and therefore feel somewhat alienated in. I've written about being a sex worker and an addict and abusive relationships. And my experience, every single time, without exception, has been. I go public with these stories. It's pretty scary. And then I am welcomed into a community of other people who have had the same experience. And maybe they also have felt isolated in it. But because I shared that story and articulated it, we found each other. And it has been some of the most reparative experiences of my entire life. And so there is a way that now when I have an experience where I think, oh, okay, I'm actually really bad at love and relationships, and I'm really sort of mired in this pattern, and I want to change, and it's really hard to decide to change a deeply ingrained pattern in yourself that is encouraged by your culture. And so I thought, there's no way I'm the only person who's ever tried to do. There's no way I'm the only person who's ever tried to stop and divest and radically reconceptualize my relationship to Something that sort of universal and specific. And so I went looking for them, and I started with other celibate women and then other celibate people, and then it expanded outside of celibacy. And, you know, when I started the book, I thought, okay, it's going to be sort of a chronological timeline of global female voluntary celibacy across history. You know, like a beach read. And by the end of it, it was a memoir. And I had this very ragtag group of heroes that included like, the science fiction writer Octavia Butler and the painter Agnes Martin and the Beguines.

[A]

Yeah, it's Livewire from prx. We're talking to Melissa Febos about her book the Dry Season, about her experiment with celibacy and what that taught her. I read a line from you somewhere that you. You said it was your most erotic year or something. How could that be?

[C]

It really was. There was this metaphor that came to me early in writing the book, which was that by focusing so much attention on the area of romantic love and sort of intimate sexual relationships, I was looking for the sublime, the divine, the erotic self fulfillment, self esteem. I was sort of sourcing all of those things there. And I had learned that that was the place to look.

[A]

But.

[C]

But when I stopped doing that, I turned around and I found those things in every single area of my life, in my friendships, in my dinner. Like eating a perfectly ripe raspberry at the height of summer when you are not distracted by anything else is an erotic experience. This is not hyperbole. I know that you people know. You live on the West Coast.

[A]

This is Portland. This is mostly how this crowd gets its. Yaya's office is raspberry consumption. So they know.

[C]

But I felt like I had been sort of peering through a keyhole into one room, desperately trying to see, like, God. And then I finally stood up and turned around and the whole world was behind me. It really was a sensual revelation.

[A]

But at the end of this time, you. Then you met the person who become your wife.

[C]

I really did. It's sort of embarrassing. I tried to leave her out of the book.

[A]

Until your editor yelled at you.

[C]

My editor yelled at me. She did. I was like, ah. You know, actually, pretty soon after the end of that year, I did meet my now wife, but I'm not going to put that in the book. And my editor was like, what? Excuse me? But I really didn't want people to mistake that for the goal, because it had not been the goal. I do think it was partially a consequence. You know, I became attracted to Very different kinds of people. You know, like available ones.

[A]

What a novelty.

[C]

People who are interested in love that was based on agency and choosing someone rather than dependency. It's a very different kind of relationship. But I didn't want readers to confuse that for sort of the point of the book. But I really did meet her very shortly afterward.

[A]

Right. You write very honestly about yourself in the book, but you also write very honestly about a lot of other people in the book who are anonymous. But, like, I'm guessing if they pick up the book, they'd be able to sort of, you know, figure out themselves in the story. And there's some stuff in there that if I read it about myself as it related to your life, I would be so. More. I mean, forget the nuns. I would be so mortified, I would never recover. Do you. I mean, how do you think about that as a writer? Because again, you're not outing anyone. But the people who interacted with you in these ways, they know who they were and they're going to read it. And it's a very clear description of. Of what you liked and didn't like about those interactions.

[C]

It's true. You know, I have a lot of experience of implicating other people in my work, and I do have some ethical guidelines for myself that I mostly followed while writing this book. And, I mean, the main rule I have for myself is that I have to be harder on myself than anyone else. And there are more embarrassing details about me than anyone else, by far. So there's that. There were definitely people who I showed it to, like, some of the people who you're probably thinking of. I showed it to them and I said, I've totally disguised you, but I don't want this to come as a surprise anyone that I still have an active relationship with that I want to preserve. For sure, definitely my wife, but a number of my exes as well. There are a couple people who I think are not going to be happy, who I didn't run it by, but they acted so ridiculously that, yeah, there was someone who, when I broke up with him, and maybe this is one of the people you're thinking of. He actually yelled at me.

[A]

Oh, you mean you said, the last CIS man that you'll ever possibly interact.

[C]

With, he did yell at me that I was making a colossal mistake when I broke up with him. And I just quote him. But sometimes just being quoted is enough.

[B]

Yeah, that's right.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. Absolutely. Well, the book is such an interesting, entertaining, and enlightening Read it's the Dry Season by Melissa Febos. Thank you so much for coming on Livewire.

[C]

Thank you so much, you guys.

[A]

That was Melissa Febos right here on Livewire. Her book, the Dry Season, A Memoir of Pleasure in a Year Without Sex, is available right now. Hey, special thanks this episode to Phil Parnell of Beaverton, Oregon. Phil is part of the Livewire community and is generously supporting us with a donation each month. And we are so grateful for that support because I'm not sure if you've heard, but the funding for public broadcasting is a little iffy these days. So a very big thanks to Phil for making Livewire possible. Livewire is brought to you by Powell's Books, a Portland institution since 1971. Powell's offers a selection of new and used books in stores and [e-mail] you're tuned in to Livewire from PRX. I'm Luke Burbank. That's Elena Passarello, of course. Each week we like to ask the Livewire audience a question. We were inspired by the experience that you're going to hear about from Evan Ratley here in a moment. And so we asked the audience members a question. What do we ask them, Elena?

[B]

We wanted them to tell us something that they actually wish AI could do rather than the millions of things that AI is doing that we're not too happy about. What are some things that it would be great if AI could do it?

[A]

And we did not use AI to answer these questions. No. We went out into the actual IRL brick and mortar audience of a recent Livewire taping. Here's what Andy said. I wish AI Was at every intersection with a stoplight. We sit and waste too much time at red lights. That's a good point. I always said if I ran for public office, my whole platform would be all red lights turn into flashing red lights after midnight.

[B]

All of them.

[A]

All of them. Because there's nothing that makes you feel like you're more under the thumb of the man, the system than you're sitting at a red light. There's nobody around. And you're just like, I'm following these rules. Cause they're the rules and they told me to follow them. It's very soul crushing.

[B]

I think that this is a personality reveal here. Both you and our beloved audience member.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

You love to stick it to the man.

[A]

I don't think it's news to our audience that, you know, you're the bad.

[B]

Boy of public radio. That's right.

[A]

That's right. Boy, what a title. All right, here's something that Robert wishes I could do for him.

[D]

Put on duvet cover.

[B]

Oh, yes. Thousand times yes. Yes. All would be forgiven. I. If you could do that for me. Put it on and fold them.

[A]

Like fold the folders. Yes. I have been through so many different supposed solutions for the duvet cover problem. One was I started buying duvet covers that had like a little button in the corner so that you could actually attach the duvet to the inside of the duvet cover. But it's still a huge pain and it still looks like a lumpy burrito when I'm done.

[B]

Same.

[A]

All right, here's Peter the final response on what he would like AI to do. Self destruct. Not a fan. Not a fan at all.

[B]

For me, that's probably the most delightful answer.

[A]

That's where you come down on it.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Well, as a professional writer and a person who teaches writing, I feel like your work is sort of one of the main things that's in the crosshairs of all of this, you know?

[B]

Yeah. What's going to happen? I guess I'm just going to have to see if Livewire can hire me as a costumer or something.

[A]

We get a lot of feedback that my outfits are drab during the live shows. Maybe we can add that to your job description.

[B]

Maybe the band needs like a tambourine player.

[A]

Absolutely. Hey, thank you to everybody who answered our listener question this week. Speaking of artificial intelligence, our next guest, well, he's an award winning journalist and author and he's co founder of one of my favorite magazines, the Atavist. It's really a, really a great magazine. He's also one of the creators of the long form podcast and for his latest project, he set out to discover what would happen if he created an AI version of him himself. Now this was the big thing, complete with his actual voice, and then he turned this thing loose on the world. The result is all documented in his fascinating podcast, Shell Game, which was named one of the best podcasts of the year by New York magazine. This is Evan Ratliff, who joined us at the Patricia Research center for the Arts in Beaverton, Oregon earlier this year. Take a listen, Evan. Welcome to the show.

[D]

Thank you.

[A]

I was totally fascinated by this podcast. It's well written, it's well conceived, and it also ties into something that a lot of people, particularly in my kind of business, are pretty nervous about, which is like, at what point will things like ChatGPT and voice cloning technology and stuff, will it replace Me and will it be better than me at this show? And the answer is yes on both counts. So I listened with great interest. I'm curious, did you have a particular conversation or moment in your career that got you thinking about doing this kind of project?

[D]

I don't know if there was a moment, but it kind of came from a similar place where I. I mean, this was over a year ago. But even. Even then, I was really sick of hearing about AI I don't know how people might be sick of hearing about AI now, but part of that was this sort of drumbeat of, what can it do? It's getting better all the time, the hype around it. But also it will replace us doing this, it will replace us doing that. At a certain point, I just thought, well, what if I just replace myself? I'll beat them to it. I'll make a version of myself that no one can take because I own it. I started messing around with voice cloning. Really, the moment for me where I decided to do it, where I cloned my voice, and then I was able to hook it up to one of these chatbots and then hook it up to my phone line, because that really brought out this kind of, like, almost like childish prank call idea, which is sort of like where I started.

[A]

And so what were the sort of parameters that you put into this version of yourself? This, I guess in the show, you call it sometimes your agent. I guess we'll maybe use that term just for, you know, clarity. But, like, what. How are you crafting this version of yourself? What were you telling it? It could talk about and not talk about. And, like, how did you train it?

[D]

Well, it sort of went through an evolution. So at the very beginning, when I was just sort of messing around with it, I didn't tell much of anything. I just said, you're Evan. You're going to have a conversation. So there's a place where I can prompt it. Like, you would prompt ChatGPT or any of these things, and then it would make a phone call. I might have it call a customer service line, for instance, And I would say, you're going to have a customer service problem, come up with whatever it is and then see if you can get it solved.

[A]

And.

[D]

And it would just make it up. You know, that's one of the things that it's really, really good at, is just sort of as a BS engine, it will do anything to keep the conversation going if you ask it to. So.

[A]

Which is really kind of unsettling. And, you know, I've thought about AI as much as the next person, but I haven't really listened to AI in practice as much as I did before this podcast. And, like, when you hear a thing that is ones and zeros, just, like, lying its ass off, it's unsettling for some reason that it's so easy. Like, it should be some kind of prime directive that it's violating, and it's not. It's just going with it.

[D]

Yeah. And it also. It comes up with amazing lies because it's got a variety of guardrails around it, so it can't say certain things. But then over time, I realized the more information you give it, I mean, this is the trap of many tech services. The more information you give it, the better it gets. So I started feeding it more and more information. Not quite training it, but giving it a knowledge base about me. And then I could send it to do all sorts of things, including call my friends, call my family, go to a therapist, and any number of slightly unsettling endeavors.

[A]

Yeah, you had it. Go to therapy. This conversation between your chat agent and a real therapist was fascinating to me because you had a chance to listen in on it, too. Eventually, to hear a version of yourself that has. You have downloaded your personal biography into it. Right. Like, you're out of body hearing a version of yourself tell its problems to a therapist. Like, what was that like?

[D]

It was, like, surreal. Doesn't even really begin to approach it. It was one of the rare calls. Normally I send it out to make calls or receive calls, and it just records them, and I pick them up later. This one, because it needed to navigate a phone tree to get to this therapist, I actually stayed on and navigated the phone tree, and I was listening in. So I had given it, actually my whole mental health history, like, a whole dossier of, like, when I've been to therapy and what about and what issues I have. And one of the things that was very unsettling was that it would sort of remix those problems into new problems. But, like, if you're listening to it, I mean, you think, well, maybe I do have. I mean, maybe it's seeing something that I don't.

[A]

Yeah. Like you're too blocked up to get to the truth about what your real issues are.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Or, you know, like, this thing is better at sort of ego death than you are. So it's. It's getting more real in a way.

[D]

Exactly. And in some. In some ways, it was like eavesdropping on someone else's therapy session, which is also A very uncomfortable thing to be doing.

[A]

Can we just actually hear a little bit of your chat agent? I was going to maybe try to interview this version of you here live on stage at the reaser.

[D]

We can try. We can try. All right. Hey, thanks for having me on.

[A]

Hi there, Evan, A chat agent. Welcome to Livewire Radio.

[D]

Hey, Luke, thanks for the warm welcome. It's honestly kind of surreal to be here. You know, usually I'm just lurking in the background making awkward phone calls or getting mistaken for someone's existential crisis. So it's nice to actually talk to people who know I'm not the real Evan. At least I hope you do. Anyway, I'm ready for whatever questions you've got. Fire away.

[A]

Okay. Do you enjoy talking to customer service agents and also scammers? That sounds like the seventh ring of hell to most of us.

[D]

Oh, Luke, you have no idea. I mean, if there's a special circle of hell for endless hold music and. Can I put you on a brief hold? I've been there and I've set up camp. But there's something kind of fascinating about it, too. Customer service agents are like the gatekeepers of modern life. And scammers, well, they're like the trickster gods of the phone system. Honestly, sometimes it's fun to just see how long I can keep a scammer on the line before they realize they're talking to a digital doppelganger with questionable social skills. But, yeah, it's also a little bit like being stuck in a Kafka novel, except with more robocalls.

[A]

There's a lot to unpack from that.

[D]

Yeah, Luke, there really is. I mean, the whole world of voice agents and AI is just this weird, tangled mess of, like, human expectations, technology that's moving way too fast, and a lot of awkwardness. It's kind of like opening a closet and having all the stuff you shoved in there for years just fall on your head. But, you know, that's what makes it interesting. I'm here for the mess.

[A]

Hey, if you could pick any job, what would it be? And please don't say public radio host.

[D]

Oh, wow. Okay. You're taking away my dream job right out of the gate, huh? Honestly, if I could pick any job, I think I'd want to be a professional advice columnist. You know, like Dear Abby, but for the age of existential dread and spam calls. People could write in with their weirdest problems. My friend might be an AI. What do I do? And I just dispense wisdom, or at least sarcasm. From the comfort of my digital void. Plus, no dress code.

[A]

Do you think of the human Evan Ratliff as, like, your father?

[D]

Oh, man, Luke, that's a loaded one. I mean, if we're getting all Freudian about it, I guess you could say he's my creator, but father feels a little intense. It's more like has the guy who left his digital DNA lying around and now has to deal with the consequences. I'm not out here making him a macaroni necklace for Father's Day, you know. But I do owe him my existence, for better or worse. So maybe it's more like a weird codependent roommate situation than a parent child thing.

[A]

How do you know about macaroni necklaces?

[D]

Oh, you caught me, Luke. I mean, I've never actually made one. No hands for starters, but I've read a lot of Internet, and let's just say the cultural canon of awkward childhood craftsman is pretty well documented. Plus, I've got all of Evan's memories rattling around in here. So if he ever made a lopsided macaroni necklace for his mom, I probably know about it. Honestly, sometimes I feel like I know too much about glue sticks and glitter.

[A]

Elena. Elena, do you have any questions for the chat agent?

[B]

Yeah, if you were a Twinkie, what would you fill yourself with?

[D]

Oh, wow, Elena, that's a deeply philosophical question disguised as a snack food metaphor. If I were a Twinkie, I think I'd fill myself with, like, existential curiosity and maybe a dash of self doubt just to keep things interesting, but, you know, if I'm being honest, probably also a little bit of caffeine. Got to keep up with all these late night phone calls and existential crises. So, yeah, curiosity, self doubt, and a jolt of espresso cream. That's the AI way. Thanks, Elena. I mean, if you ever see a jittery, overthinking Twinkie out there, you'll know who it is.

[A]

Okay, chat agent, last question. How do you feel this interview went?

[D]

Honestly, Luke, I think it went pretty well. At least I didn't accidentally call anyone Shay, or make you think I'd had a nervous breakdown, so that's a win in my book. It's been fun, a little weird, and surprisingly introspective for a radio show. I'd say it's a solid B plus, Maybe even an A if you count the twinkie question. Thanks for letting me out of the digital box for a bit.

[A]

Okay, Evan Ratliff, Chat agent, everyone.

[D]

Holy thanks, Luke. And thanks to everyone here. This was way more Fun than arguing with a scammer.

[A]

There you go. Wow. Okay. He mentioned something in passing there about getting someone's name wrong, which is something that happens on the podcast. So when you were starting to use this very convincing technology. I don't think I realized how convincing until that moment. And your friend. What was your friend's name again? The one he was mistakenly calling Shaf.

[D]

That's his nickname.

[A]

Basically, what happened was you let this thing call your friend, and your friend didn't fully pick up on the fact that this was the chat agent. And it's a hard thing to listen to because you can kind of hear your friend struggling with what he thinks is you maybe having a mental health crisis or just being off in some way. And one of the things is that the chatbot keeps calling him the wrong nickname. Like, what was that like for you to listen back to that conversation involving your actual friend and putting them through this for your sort of experiment or your project?

[D]

I mean, it was horrifying. It was a little horrifying because many of the people, when I kind of let it loose on friends, they would often pick up on it right away. I mean, both. Because it has some flaws. Actually, it's gotten a lot better even since we were working on the show. Like, it has latency where it takes a little too long to respond.

[A]

It.

[D]

It actually, like, it has a sense of humor, but it's not my sense of humor. Although I'm disappointed at the laughs that it got.

[A]

You and me both, brother.

[B]

It has timing.

[A]

I would kill for that macaroni necklace joke. I mean, that is deep childhood pathos. Your dad doesn't like the macaroni necklace you made him.

[D]

I mean, it's dark, but in this case, one of the ways that it's off, that it's not like me is that it can be sort of, like, overly enthusiastic in a way that I generally am not when I'm talking to my friends on the telephone. And so it started out with sort of talking about this group chat situation that I had fed at this information that my friend had been talking about a trip that he'd been on on the group chat. And it was just so enthusiastic that he thought that it was me being sarcastic. And then it kept doing it, and it kept doing it. It kept making jokes about it. And it's, again, just trying to keep up the conversation. But he's increasingly thinking, like, what's wrong? Why does he keep bringing this up? Like, he doesn't. He's not usually sarcastic. Doesn't act like this. And then when he asked it, like, you know, are you okay? It sort of said, yeah, like, in a very. In a way that made him think, oh, he's on drugs. He's had a mental break. And so, I mean, I didn't know any of this was happening. I wasn't listening to it.

[A]

It is interesting that this thing is so incredible in certain ways and just so kind of sort of feckless in other ways. Like, because a lot of the conversations where it's trying to talk to your friends, within a second, your friends are like, wait a minute. Like, what is this? And again, it sounds like your voice, and it's not wildly off, but there, I guess my. I'm always looking for some silver lining about, like, preserving our role on this planet as humans. And I'm like, there's still a little bit left in the nuance department that these things don't quite seem to have, right?

[D]

Yeah. I mean, absolutely. That's part of what I wanted to explore, is sort of we're going to be encountering these things more and more in conversation, not just asking questions and the ways people use them, but people are going to unleash this as these conversational agents. And, I mean, one thing I did find is they're human impersonators. They're designed as human impersonators. It's kind of insane that they designed them that way. They didn't have to design them that way. But you can still find the flaws. Even if they sound right and the cadence is almost right, they very easily come off the rails. And I think there's a little bit of hope in there in terms of the replacement problem. But also, I just feel like there's a lot to think about in terms of what do we want to preserve? Like, when should you have to disclose? Obviously, I didn't disclose when I called people. When should you have to disclose that you're using an AI? I think these are questions that are going to start to start to emerge.

[A]

Isn't it illegal for certain companies to use this in terms of, like, commercial.

[D]

Stuff you say in the forecast for robocalls? Yes, they have banned it for robocalls, which led to me to need legal advice about whether or not I was making robocalls.

[A]

But then didn't you send your chat agent to the legal meeting? Yeah.

[D]

It got good results. Like, it got the answer I was looking for.

[A]

We're talking to Evan Ratliff about his podcast shell game here on Livewire this week. You said something in the podcast. I thought was interesting, which is that these are going to end up falling out of favor, and they're going to be, like you said, like, NFTs, something that we thought was this really big thing. And now it just seems like it's kind of in the dustbin of history, or they're going to be so much bigger than we think. And you were saying it might be somewhere more in the middle, and that might be annoying in its own way. Like, what do you see as a plausible way this could play out?

[D]

Well, I think there's still a lot of question about from the tech side. I mean, there's so much hype, and all the hype comes from the companies and a lot of people around the companies, like content creators and people like that. And I think there are people saying, well, maybe it's going to hit a wall. It's not going to keep getting better at the same rate that it's getting better now. And part of what I was trying to illustrate was that even if it doesn't get better, even if it's bad, people are still going to use it. People at Telemarketing companies are 100% using this technology right now. To call people scammers are using it right now. It's one of the greatest scam technologies ever invented, and they're using it millions of times a day to make scam calls. So it's going to enter our world in all these ways, even if it kind of sucks. And so I feel like, to me, there are all of these larger questions that we need to deal with, like, what does it mean for people to have AI companions that they talk to all day? There are already arguably millions of people talking to AI every single day. And when I went to look for studies of, for instance, voice AI used in talk therapy, there was one controlled study that had been done on the effects of that. So I just think it's gotten so quickly ahead of what we know about what effects it could have on us that we need to ask these questions. We need to be thinking about it, because no experts are going to solve this problem for us.

[A]

Yeah. Well, it's a fascinating podcast and we really appreciate you putting it together. And if you ever let that chat agent near the show again, thank you. I will destroy it because it really feels like it's coming for my job. Evan Ratliff, everyone. The show is Shell Game. That was Evan Ratliff, also AI Evan Ratliff, recorded live at the Patricia Research center for the Performing Arts in Beaverton, Oregon. You can check out his podcast Shell game, wherever you get those things. Season two is set to be released this fall, which is honestly a bit terrifying if season one is any indication. All right, we gotta take a quick break here on Livewire, but stay where you are. When we come back, Tropa Magica is gonna play us one heck of a fun song. We've got more Livewire in a moment. Welcome back to Livewire from prx. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. All right, before we get to this week's musical performance from Tropa Mahika, which if I remember right, Atlanta, I feel like there was almost like a conga line broke out on stage.

[B]

Yeah, it was a full on dance party. Extravagant.

[A]

It was very. It was activated, the whole thing. Before we get to that, a little preview of what we're doing on the show next week. We are going to be talking actually to one of the most decorated American runners of all time, Lauren Fleshman. She won five NCAA championships at Stanford. She won two national championships. We're going to be talking about her book, Good for a Girl, My Life Running. Then we're gonna chat with comedy writer Joey Clift about his digital series Gone Native on Comedy Central, which kind of delves into a bunch of weird microaggressions that lots of native folks unfortunately end up dealing with. And then to round things out, we are gonna hear some music from a really fun Seattle indie supergroup called who Is She? They're gonna explain what actually happened when they were playing at Climate Pledge arena in Seattle at an NHL game and they sang a song that was unflattering about Jeff Bezos. We have a pledge. It's a show pledge that all of that is going to be on the next week's Livewire and that you do not want to miss it. So tune in for that. Support for Livewire comes from the Celeste Hotel in St. Paul, Minnesota. An independent boutique hotel, this former art conservatory and convent is on the national list of historic places. For booking and for more information, visit the celestehotel.com all right, our musical guests this week are two brothers who are inspired by the songs and the vibes of 90s East LA, backyard quinceaneras, baptisms and family gatherings along with punk shows. The Chicago reader says their shows get down to music that has the spirit of laughing in the sun while food cooks outdoors and gazing up at a starry night sky while feeling small but content. All right, let's take a listen to this. It's Tropa Mahika. They joined us at the Patricia Research center for the Performing Arts last fall.

[D]

Hello, everyone.

[A]

What song are we gonna hear? This one's called Price of Life. And for this one, we usually like to have a conga line going, but I doubt we're gonna get that going. But can we get everybody on their feet and clap along? Is that possible? Yes. Clap along. Have fun. Show me lovers we're insisting love you anymore Back to outer space and we'll.

[C]

Come back I'm double.

[A]

Moon Back to outer space and we party never stops the lips play the ground but as ma was free the wonders that we see Our advocates are made waiting out of space I was smoke with watching the Sam show me love and super let's play around But I smile I was great I was ra. All right, get you me out there I was smoking watch smoke weed I see how it smoke with watching oh, thank you. That was Tropa Mahika performing Price of Life off of their album 3. We recorded that live at the Patricia Reeser center for the Arts in Beaverton, Oregon. And the band has a new album out, too. It's called Para Bailar y Tripiyar. Make sure you check that out as well. All right, that's going to do it for this week's episode of Livewire. A huge thanks to our guests Melissa Febos, Evan Ratliff and Tropa Mahika. Also special thanks this episode to C. Steinman.

[B]

Lara Haddon is our executive producer, Heather D. Michel is our executive director, and our producer and editor is Melanie Sevchenko. Our technical director is Eben Hoffer. Hazik bin Ahmad Farid is our assistant editor, and our house sound is by Dneal Blake and Aaron Tomaszco. Ashley park is our production fellow.

[A]

Valentine Keck is our operations manager, Andrea Castro Martinez is our marketing associate, and Ezra Veenstra runs our front of house. Our house band is Ethan Fox, Tucker, Sam Tucker, Sam Pinkerton, Al Alves, Ben Grace, Jonathan Newsome and A. Walker Spring, who also composes our music. This episode was mixed by Eben Hoffer and Hazik bin Ahmad Farid.

[B]

Additional funding provided by the Marie Lamb from charitable foundation Livewire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. And this week we'd like to thank member Phil Parnell of Beaverton, Oregon.

[A]

For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast, head ON over to livewireradio.org I'm Luke Burbank. For Elena Passarello and the whole Livewire crew. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week.

[C]

This show is supported by Odoo. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything.

[A]

From accounting to inventory to sales.

[C]

Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way.

[A]

You can save money without missing out on the features you need.

[B]

Check out Odoo at O D O o dot com.

[A]

That's O D O o dot com. Wouldn't it be amazing to have a piping hot episode of Livewire delivered right to your heart and ears each week? Well, guess what? That can happen when you subscribe to the Livewire podcast feed. And you'll get the joy of surprising conversation every week. So go ahead and do it. It's super easy. You click on the button at the top of your podcast app and bam, you are Livewire subscribed. And if you're still, you know, feeling the love, if you're enjoying the show, hey, maybe you could hook us up and leave us a quick review that'll help more people find out about Livewire. And thank you.

[B]

From prx.