Open Book: Aubrey Gordon

Summary

Live Wire with Luke Burbank: Open Book Featuring Aubrey Gordon Release Date: June 18, 2025

In this engaging episode of Live Wire with Luke Burbank, hosted by PRX, Elena Passarello welcomes renowned writer and podcast host Aubrey Gordon to discuss her profound relationship with books, her insights into essay collections, and her unique perspectives on nonfiction literature. The conversation delves deep into Aubrey's reading habits, her recommendations for must-read books, and her views on the evolving landscape of literature.

Aubrey Gordon’s Relationship with Reading

Aubrey Gordon opens up about her dual relationship with reading—both as a source of pleasure and a pivotal component of her professional life. She describes herself as someone who "reads for pleasure and also for work" (02:44). Aubrey acknowledges the challenge of maintaining the joy of reading for leisure amidst the demands of her literary and podcasting careers. However, she finds balance by immersing herself in diverse genres, allowing her to shift seamlessly between analytical work and recreational reading.

The Allure of Essay Collections

A significant portion of the discussion centers around Aubrey's passion for essay collections. She articulates the unique power of essays to "stitch together this sort of, you know, sort of work across fields and across lines of thought" (06:54). Aubrey highlights how essayists like Joan Didion and James Baldwin offer profound insights that operate on both emotional and political levels, making their works endlessly fascinating and intellectually stimulating. She believes that essay collections provide a comprehensive and multifaceted view of complex subjects, enhancing the reader’s understanding of the world.

Memoirs and Untold Stories

When prompted about memoirs she wishes existed, Aubrey emphasizes her yearning for narratives that delve into the intricacies of community organizing and political activism. She states, "I feel like more of those kinds of, like, you know, hard boiled labor organizers being like, here's what it took to unionize Starbucks or whatever. Here's what it took to, like, win this big fight" (13:53). Aubrey underscores the importance of capturing the messy, slow-paced nature of social change, highlighting the human stories behind political movements.

Book Recommendations: The Little Black Dress of Book Gifts

Aubrey shares her top nonfiction picks that she considers the "Little Black Dress" of book gifts—versatile choices suitable for a wide range of readers:

• "Pumped Up: The History of Uber": Aubrey describes this book as a "true horror show" filled with "monsters" (16:14), making it a gripping read for those interested in corporate histories and dark narratives.
• "Imbeciles" by Adam Cohen: A profound exploration of the Supreme Court case Buck v. Bell and the eugenics movement in the United States. Aubrey praises the book for its deep dive into historical contexts and its ability to "reconfigure your brain" (18:16).

Controversial Opinions on Reading Preferences

Aubrey candidly discusses her predominantly nonfiction reading habit, acknowledging its controversial nature in a literary world that often glorifies fiction. She humorously labels her preference as a "controversial opinion" and passionately defends the richness and depth that nonfiction offers (18:48). Furthermore, Aubrey reveals her strategy for discovering new bookstores by exploring their poetry sections. She believes that the curated selection of poetry provides a window into the bookstore's identity and the relationships they cultivate within the literary community (19:27).

Insights on Building Community Through Literature

Aubrey emphasizes the role of literature in fostering understanding and empathy within communities. She shares anecdotes from her experience as a community organizer, illustrating how personalized stories and diverse narratives can bridge gaps and build stronger, more nuanced communities (15:37). Her commitment to showcasing the humanity in every story underscores the transformative power of books in societal change.

Conclusion

Aubrey Gordon’s conversation on Live Wire offers a compelling exploration of her literary passions and intellectual pursuits. Her advocacy for nonfiction and essay collections highlights the importance of diverse narratives in shaping our understanding of the world. Through her thoughtful reflections and dynamic recommendations, Aubrey inspires listeners to embrace a wide array of literary genres and to appreciate the profound impact that books can have on both personal growth and societal advancement.

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Notable Quotes:

• About Reading for Pleasure and Work: “I would say I'm a person who reads for pleasure and also for work. My job is a lot. A lot, a lot of reading.” (02:44)

• On Essay Collections: “There is something about essays in particular that are looking to stitch together this sort of, you know, sort of work across fields and across lines of thought.” (06:54)

• Memoir Desires: “Here are stories from people who know what the work is that it takes to move the needle and to shift.” (12:14)

• Book Recommendations: “'Pumped up, which is the History of Uber. Really not kidding. The History of Uber is a true horror show that really blew my brains right out of my head.” (16:14)

• Controversial Reading Habits: “Mostly reading nonfiction. It is a little controversial. People forget that it exists.” (18:48)

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Timestamps Reference:

• 02:44 – Aubrey on reading for pleasure and work
• 06:54 – Discussion on essay collections
• 12:14 – Aubrey’s thoughts on memoirs and community organizing
• 16:14 – Book recommendation: "Pumped up"
• 18:48 – Controversial opinion on reading nonfiction

Transcript

[Anna J. Pizza]

If you're a creative charting your own path, it's easy to get lost. I'm Anna J. Pizza. I'm a New York Times bestselling author and illustrator. My podcast, Creative Pep Talk is a weekly podcast companion for the creative journey. Full of interviews, stories, and strategies, it is designed to help you move forward towards your best work. You can start with episode 502, how to Beat the Analysis Paralysis of the Right Path. It's a recent creative Pep Talk Listener.

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[Elena Passarello]

Hi there, I'm writer Elena Passarello, and this is Open Book, a literary podcast from Livewire Radio, brought to you by Powell's Books, where we talk to writers about their reading habits. Now, when I'm not having fun being Livewire's announcer, writing is totally my job. I am the author of two essay collections and I'm currently mired in a third book project. Please wish me luck. And outside my own writing life, I teach the next generation of writers in an MFA program here in Oregon. And all of this is to say.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Say that books, without exaggeration, are my whole life.

[Elena Passarello]

Sometimes I even dream about books like.

[Aubrey Gordon]

This recurring nightmare I have of being chased by a first edition of Finnegan's Wake.

[Elena Passarello]

Anyway, this week we are talking to Aubrey Gordon. Aubrey is perhaps best known as the host of one of my favorite podcasts, Maintenance Phase. But she got started as a writer. She rose to fame as an anonymous blogger and has released two books, including one with a literary illusion in its title, 2021's what we don't Talk About When We Talk About Fat. I have learned so much from Aubrey's writing and reporting. I can honestly say that it's changed the way I move in this world. And I already knew she'd be a hoot from when we had her on Livewire a few years back. And let me tell you, Aubrey did not disappoint. Stay tuned to hear her thoughts on reading essay collections, on the memoir that she would love to read that hasn't been written yet, and how you can suss out the true soul of a bookstore. This is Aubrey Gordon on Open Book. Aubrey, welcome to Open Book.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Elena Passarello]

We're glad you're here.

[Aubrey Gordon]

How would you describe yourself as a reader. Like, what adjectives kind of come to mind?

I would say I'm a person who reads for pleasure and also for work. My job is a lot. A lot, a lot of reading. I would say that my patterns with reading are uneven. That I will have multiple days where all I'm doing is reading. That's it. That's the whole day is just reading. And we'll do that for fun after quitting time as well. And then I will have long stretches of, like, not really reading as much. I'm currently in a big wave cresting of a lot of reading. So I'm like, this is perfect timing. This is perfect timing to talk about books.

Oh, perfect. Great. And reading for pleasure, not just reading for maintenance.

Absolutely.

Oh, nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's one thing that I always have a hard time with, is becoming that reader again. If you read books for your job or you write books for your job, becoming the person who used to just, you know, sit with a flashlight under the covers and read for pleasure.

Totally.

What's the strategy for you to keep that alive?

Honestly, I feel like when I'm reading for work, it becomes easier to read for pleasure because I just wanna read something totally different than whatever I've been reading for work all day. And that feels really fun and rewarding to be like, all right, I've been reading about, like, garbage, terrible public health initiatives all day. And instead, what I would like to do now is go read Oscar the History of the Oscars.

Oh, that's such a great book, Michael Shulman.

So good. Good.

Is that what you're reading right now?

It is one that I started reading while I was on vacation and then, like, set it aside so it's been sitting on my bedside table, like, staring at me while I've been reading other things. But, like, my God, I've been through the first sort of section of it, and it's exceptional. It's exceptional.

Yeah. It's like a resource and an entertainment delight. It's this kind of history of the Oscars and story about. This is a man who knows how to write about acting. He's got a big, huge book on the method. Michael Shulman, I believe is his name. Yeah, he's a New Yorker writer, and it is. It's like a tome, but it's sectioned out. So when your attention is ready to read something really dense and juicy and full of facts and things you want to Google, but you don't have to move all the way through, like, a plotted Novel where you'll lose the thread totally.

And each of those sections is as you like. It's a meaty. You know, it'll be like 90 pages or something per section. And they're all. Again, what I have read of it has been like, absolutely extraordinary. I think the idea of the Academy of Motion Pictures being designed as sort of like a United nations for the industry to, like, make everybody get along is really fascinating. And I also find it totally fascinating that the guy whose idea it was was somebody that nobody wanted to hang with. So they were like, good idea, but not with that guy.

Like, I don't want him convening it. He just wanted to make friends.

Why are you totally the most antagonistic guy is like, I'm calling everyone together.

Is that what your shelf, your bedside table is like, you've got like the big honker book that you can dip in and out of. And then you've got what else is on there with the big, like, Michael Shulman historical tome?

That one is there. Oh, my God. What is the other giant one that's there is the authoritarian personality. Incredible theorist. And then the ones that I keep in my living room are the ones that I'm like, a little more attentively, like, annotating, reading that kind of stuff. And currently the ones in the living room are my most recently read books. And those were how to Write an Autobiographical Novel by Alexandra Chee.

Yes. Yeah.

Notes of a Native Son by James Baldwin.

Oh, yeah.

And the White Album by Joan Didion. I've been on a real essay collection tear, and it's unhinged to be that submerged in that quality of writing and thinking from all of these different. Like, it's like really mind blowing work. It's really mind blowing work.

What is a. Like, this is now a genre of book that maybe people don't immediately think of. They think of the novel, they think of the history historical. They think of the how to. What can an essay collection or the collected works of a great essayist like James Baldwin. What does it do for you as a reader?

I think there's something about essays in particular that are looking to stitch together this sort of, you know, sort of work across fields and across lines of thought. Right. That opening essay from the White Album, Joan Didion's opening essay is a lengthy retelling of her time in, like, a mental institution and her sort of mental breakdown. And one of the closing lines of that essay is like, in retrospect, that was a rational response to 1968. And you're like, oh, whoa. Okay. Right like that. You thought you were reading this thing. Right?

Right.

And then you get this wild rug pull at the end. I mean, I think that's great. Thick by Tressie McMillan Cottam does the same sort of thing where you're like, I'm reading a book about bodies. And then you're like, whoops. Capitalism, huh? How did we get here? Given my druthers, essay collections are, like, one of my top choices. I just absolutely love them. And I think there is something. Because I'm someone who writes from personal experience. There is something about reading someone who's, you know, the old adage is like, write what scares you. Write to the pain. Write to where it hurts, whatever. And it is absolutely wild to watch the kinds of risks that these writers are taking with their own personal stories and their own personal experiences. Yeah.

Baldwin. Wow. Like, just so much intelligence, so much vulnerability, and so much critical thought. You feel smart, you feel called out, you feel grateful that somebody was that vulnerable with you. Across the decades now, 100.

All three of them. All three of those. It's really extraordinary. And I just, I think especially, like, the more of that kind of writing that I've done, the more in awe I am of folks ability to do that. And not only to, like, do it for the sake of doing it or unburdening themselves or something, but create something that is so insightful, that is so incisive, that is so meaningful on so many levels. Right?

Yeah.

That is operating on this, like, emotional and political level in all of these cases. Right. Is really, really remarkable to me. Really impressive.

Me too. Whenever I really can't hold my attention to commit to a book that I really feel like I want to commit to, I just get a Best American Essays, you know, that anthology every year that comes out. And I just read around. It's like my Whitman sampler.

[Elena Passarello]

Cause do you ever have that where.

[Aubrey Gordon]

It'S like, I really want to read this big, important book, but I just don't have. I don't have it in me right now.

100.

Even if it's a novel or whatever.

I was. A few years ago, I was thinking about a sci fi project, and then I was like, that's not this guy. Not for me. Thanks. But okay. I like reading it and I like thinking about it. And my way to get into reading more sci fi was I got the Future Tense Anthology of Speculative Fiction. That was like a bunch of contemporary literary fiction writers taking on speculative fiction and doing really interesting things with it. And it's. It Feels like taking your. Oh, God. I'm about to say a thing that my mom says, and I was about to say it uncritically. A thing that my adorable preschool teacher mom says is it's like taking your brain to the playground.

I thought you were gonna say something dirty.

Oh, God, no. Oh, God.

We have different moms.

I think we do have different moms. We do have different moms.

It's like taking your brain to the brothel. No, I'm just kidding.

But yeah, it feels like to get your brain to switch into such a completely different mode after that kind of, like, work reading that is very analytical. Lots of primary text, medical studies and that kind of stuff being able to move into. No, we're gonna do some speculative fiction about a future Dust Bowl. Let's go.

Oh, that's great.

Right?

Is that in the Future Tense anthology?

It's good.

Okay, so the other great benefit of this podcast, I'm realizing is that my book list, my Powell's Wish list, is going to get thicker and bigger and better, and it's gonna be great. Okay, so let me ask you about. Do you have specific reading goals for, like, 2025?

I have sort of, like, areas of focus, maybe. I think the essay collection stuff is a place where I'm like, finding a lot there that feels really fruitful and generative from, like, a writing perspective, but also from just a living in the world perspective. It feels like we're living in a time of, like, a lot of things getting flattened to a really dangerous degree and having folks like Didion and Baldwin and, like, these incredible. And Alexander Chee who are like, just kidding. Not only is it not flat, it's like 87 dimensional chess.

So complex.

I think it's so complex you could.

Pick one thing and talk about everything. If you look at it like, as deeply as you need to, as it deserves, as something like life or family or history. Oh, speaking of, I wanted to ask you about memoir. Yeah, sort of the other kind of nonfiction genre. Is there a memoir that hasn't been written, but, like a person that you're like, if you don't write a memoir soon, I'm going to come to your house and set up a Dictaphone and make you say your memoir out loud in public?

God, that's a great question, honestly. So before I was a writer, I was a community organizer. And I think I find myself really hungry again, especially now for stories from people who know what the work is that it takes to move the needle and to shift. Shift folks opinion, shift Public opinion, all of that kind of stuff. And the extreme. I think we tend to think of those kinds of political acts as a statement of purity or a statement of purity of intent or something. And I think that when you're a practitioner of that kind of stuff, you're like, oh, it's all messy all the time. All I'm doing is talking to people who I'm not 100% aligned with. And my job is to hold the line and get people moving in the same direction. And just like, I feel like more of those kinds of, like, you know, hard boiled labor organizers being like, here's what it took to unionize Starbucks or whatever. Here's what it took to, like, win this big fight.

Yeah.

And getting into the mechanics of that kind of stuff, that feels really, really helpful to me. There's a memoir. Oh, my gosh. I think it's Jane McAlevy, who wrote one, who was an SEIU organizer for a long time. And it is a phenomenal book in terms of, like, understanding. Like, when people talk about, quote, unquote, boots on the ground in politics, like, what that actually looks like. It's really extraordinary.

So that's a great take. It's not. I've lived this life. This happened to me. This is my childhood. You want a memoir about work and change? You want a memoir that gets. It shows the messy kind of slow, glacial progress of change.

Yeah. And I think the thing that nobody knows, like, organizers know it is that every single person has the capacity to surprise you deeply with their politics. I will absolutely never forget knocking on a door to talk about. I think it was trans healthcare.

Oh, wow.

And the placard on the door, it was a house in Aloha. And the placard on the door had two crossed pistols and it said, home Security by Smith and Wesson.

Okay, okay.

And I was like, well, I guess this is my job is having a conversation with this guy. I absolutely would have advised all of our volunteers not to do that, but I was. And I was like, whatever. What's gonna. And I knocked on the door, and this person answered the door in head to toe field camo.

Oh, my gosh.

And I, like, gave the whole spiel about, like, did you know that trans people are denied healthcare just because they're trans people? Blah, blah, blah. And he went, where do I sign? Whoa. Like, without missing a beat. And this was like, 15 years ago, maybe. And I was like, funny story. I got real nervous about your quackity or. And he got really impatient with me and went I can't like guns and trans people. And I was like, I guess you can. I stand corrected. So, like, I think stuff like that is also really heartening.

Yes.

To me, that's not just about, like, it is about the glacial pace stuff and the it's a marathon, not a sprint stuff and all of that, but it's also about stuff like that where you're like, what is this? How did we wind up here?

Okay, let's not gloss over all this humanity. Let's see. The more that we see these specific people who have made their own decisions, the more we're gonna be able to understand each other as a community. That's great. That's really, really great.

And hold more complexity in ourselves and each other.

Cool.

Yeah.

So we always ask the same last question, but I've picked out this penultimate question just for you because I want to know, what book would you consider to be like, the Little Black Dress of Book Gifts? Like, you could give it to your ice cream vendor, you could give it to your in law. You. You could, like, if you're trying to find a book just to give someone as a gift that you kind of know it's gonna hit big across a lot of different types of people.

That is such a great question. I will say I am predominantly a nonfiction reader, so I'm gonna say a couple of nonfiction titles that I think are really extraordinary. One is Pumped up, which is the History of Uber. Really not kidding. The History of Uber is a true horror show that really blew my brains right out of my head. Whoa. Super incredible. So many monsters. So many monsters. So many monsters in that book. Oh, my God.

Readably full of monsters.

Absolutely.

Oh, amazing.

Really. If you're a person who enjoys maybe like a cult documentary where you're like, oh, no, this isn't going good places, Bama. Keep going. Welcome. This book is for you. The other one, I would say is Imbeciles by Adam Cohen. It's a history of Buck v. Bell, which is a Supreme Court case around eugenics in the United States. And it is a history of the eugenics movement, which I hear about all.

The time on maintenance phase. It's amazing how many of these diet fads and medical, you know, schema are.

Rooted in eugenics, 100%. There's the eugenics vibes are through the roof on a lot of diet stuff. There's no question about that. This one was really fascinating to me because it had a lot to do with the architecture of the movement. Who was involved? One of the big figures was Alexander Graham Bell in the eugenics movement because his wife was a deaf person, and he saw how she was treated, and he was like, disabled people shouldn't have to go through this. Ergo, disabled people shouldn't be born. That was his conclusion of seeing his wife's. Right. And I'm like, so that's a really different conversation than what we think about when we think about eugenics, which is like, you think about Snidely whiplash tying someone to the train tracks. Right. And not, like, someone trying to have a compassionate response and having a spectacular misfire.

Yeah. Just a total boomerang in the wrong direction.

Wow. Absolutely incredible.

Imbeciles.

It's phenomenal. It's also where I learned that moron was previously a legal term tied to specific IQ scores that were legally defined for eugenics purpose. Like, it's. It is a true, like, reconfigure your brain kind of book in an understanding of this issue.

Both of those unexpected and both of those immediately going on my Powell's wish list. Great, great, great.

Yeah.

Okay. Last but not least, Aubrey, could you give us a controversial book opinion that you hold?

I mean, I think my most controversial thing, which is not really an opinion, it's just a habit, is, like, mostly reading nonfiction.

It is a little controversial. People forget that it exists.

They sure do. We're here. We're nonfiction. Get used to it. Yeah. I mean, I feel like that's the big one, that people are like, what, novels, short stories, what? I will say one of the things that I do believe pretty deeply is it's not even a belief. It's just sort of a practice. If I want to get to know a new bookstore, the place that I go is their poetry section.

Wow.

It absolutely feels like the world of poetry is so astoundingly wide, and you can pick so many different little slivers of it and feel like that's a complete, complete picture. That it gives you a good sense of like, oh, this is a bookstore. Where they're like, our poetry section is Billy Collins and Mary Oliver.

Right, right.

You're like, all right, we're playing the hits at this bookstore. Got it. Cool. Or you go in and they're like, we have this Kevin Samsel book that's, like, collage and poetry. And you're like, all right, we're getting into some weird territory, and I'm here for it. That is. I will say, I don't know how controversial of an opinion it is.

[Elena Passarello]

It's rad.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I mean, it's a Rad opinion.

It feels like an important one to me.

Well, it's like my husband always says, if you want to know, if you go into a bar for the first time, you should order something like an old fashioned, because it just shows you kind of how the bartender curates certain kind of crucial elements, you know, of the bar. Maybe that's what the poetry section is.

Maybe.

So it's like, are you curating at all? Are you just doing it kind of like super regular? Do you have a Kevin Samsel collage? Kevin Samsel, Gray Powell's employee and runs the small press section at the bookstore. So it is. I mean, that makes sense. Like, your heart is in this kind of more niche part of the bookstore. Maybe you're in a beautiful place and it's a bunch of nature poems. Poets or something.

100%. I went to a bookstore in Ashland, and they had that I thought would just be sort of like a. Hey, you're at the Shakespeare Festival. Here's a bunch of Shakespeare bookstore. And they had most of their highlighted authors in the poetry section were local indigenous poets.

And I was like, yes.

What is happening? Southern Oregon? Okay, okay, Right like that. It gives you a window into the kind of relationships that they're building at the bookstore. It gives you a window into, like, all of this different. You know, what their analysis is also, like, how much do they empower staff to, like, take things in weird directions or not like, oh, my God, I have goosebumps.

That's a pretty. It's a strong opinion, Aubrey, but it's really good.

I'm about to find out how controversial it is.

Well, I think it's great. I'm gonna. It's so controversial, I think I'm gonna get it tattooed on some part of myself. I wish I could talk to you about books for another 16 hours. Thank you so much for this, and we're so glad that you could join us on Open Book. You can catch Aubrey on the Maintenance Phase podcast, and of course, you can get her [e-mail] make sure to check out their video Vast poetry section as well.

[Elena Passarello]

Thanks again so much to Aubrey Gordon. Thanks for listening to Open Book. I'm Elena Passarello, your host. Our executive producer is Laura Hadden, and our producer and editor is Melanie Sevchenko. Eben Hofer is our technical director. Hazik bin Ahmad Farid is our mixer. Awalker Spring composed our theme song, and Ashley park is our social media marketer. A big thanks to the entire staff at Livewire Radio. The fine folks at PRX and of course, Powell's Books for sponsoring this podcast.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

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[Aubrey Gordon]

From PRX.