Open Book: Sam Sanders

Summary

Live Wire with Luke Burbank: Open Book Episode Featuring Sam Sanders

Podcast Information:

• Title: Live Wire with Luke Burbank
• Host/Author: PRX
• Episode: Open Book: Sam Sanders
• Release Date: July 23, 2025
• Description: Live Wire is a radio show akin to late-night television, hosted by Luke Burbank. It features an eclectic mix of artists, musicians, writers, filmmakers, comedians, and cultural observers, blending diverse perspectives and engaging discussions.

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Introduction

In the July 23, 2025 episode of "Live Wire with Luke Burbank," host Elena Passarello engages in an insightful conversation with Sam Sanders. Known for his dynamic presence on NPR Politics, his own "Sam Sanders Show," and other prominent podcasts like "Vibe Check," Sam brings a wealth of experience in cultural journalism and media critique to the table. This episode, titled "Open Book: Sam Sanders," delves into Sanders' reading habits, his perspectives on book adaptations, his controversial takes on nonfiction writing, and his aspirations to author a memoir.

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Guest Background

Sam Sanders is a multi-faceted media personality whose work spans various platforms, including NPR, political commentary, and cultural analysis. His contributions to esteemed publications like New York Magazine, Politico Magazine, and The Washington Post underscore his expertise in blending journalistic integrity with engaging storytelling. Known for his "hot takes," Sam provides sharp and often provocative insights into contemporary culture.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Transition to Personal Reading (00:34 – 03:31)

Sam opens up about his shift from reading primarily for professional purposes to indulging in books for personal pleasure. He reflects:

"I purposely stepped back from doing as many book interviews maybe two or three years ago because I wanted to savor them all and I wanted my reading to feel more just me doing it for me." ([02:44])

This transition marks a significant change in how he interacts with literature, prioritizing personal enjoyment over work-related reading assignments.

2. Review of "Food Person" by Adam Roberts (03:32 – 06:10)

Elena introduces "Food Person," a novel by food writer Adam Roberts, which Sam recently read. Sam describes the book as:

"So fun … you are invested and you're kind of just like lol ing the entire time." ([04:06])

Synopsis: "Food Person" follows an awkward, aspiring food writer who grapples with the challenge of becoming a notable figure in an era that demands on-camera charisma. The protagonist seizes an opportunity to ghostwrite a cookbook for a struggling celebrity, leading to a series of humorous and enlightening events.

Sam's personal anecdote about losing the physical copy during a layover but continuing to engage with the content via Kindle highlights his deep appreciation for the story and its impact:

"I zoomed through it like within two or three days of vacation." ([05:17])

3. Reading Habits During Vacations (06:10 – 07:57)

Elena probes into Sam's preferred reading environments when traveling. Sam shares his fondness for physical books over digital formats:

"I'm always partial to a physical book. I love the way it feels on my hands." ([07:30])

He enjoys reading on planes, especially when avoiding in-flight Wi-Fi, and seeks serene locations near water to immerse himself in his books. Additionally, integrating reading into his nightly routine helps him wind down before sleep:

"Part of my just like nighttime wind down routine is trying to read in bed as I fall asleep." ([06:46])

4. Physical Books vs. Kindles (07:57 – 08:19)

The conversation touches on the tactile satisfaction of physical books compared to electronic readers. Sam emphasizes the aesthetic and sensory pleasures of holding a book, which he finds irreplaceable despite the convenience of digital formats:

"I love being able to show someone look at this book." ([07:30])

5. Favorite Book Adaptations (14:07 – 16:32)

Elena and Sam discuss successful adaptations of books into films and television. Sam highlights the stellar adaptation of Percival Everett's Erasure, which won the Oscar for Best Adapted Screenplay:

"He gives you more of that than the book does because he's smart … both are beautiful." ([15:16])

He appreciates how director Cord Jefferson retooled the narrative to better fit the cinematic medium, adding elements that resonate emotionally with audiences without diluting the story's depth.

6. Controversial Book Opinions (17:50 – 21:03)

Sam shares a provocative stance on the state of nonfiction writing:

"When it comes to written works, particularly for nonfiction writing, I believe most nonfiction books should actually just be a long form magazine article. Most long form nonfiction magazine articles should just be a series of tweets. And most tweets should never exist." ([18:23])

This statement underscores his critique of the diminishing depth and increasing fragmentation in modern writing formats, suggesting a hierarchical devaluation from books to shorter digital expressions.

7. Aspiration to Write a Book (21:03 – 26:20)

In a candid revelation, Sam discusses his plans to author a memoir. He intertwines his personal journey with cultural reflections, aiming to present a nuanced coming-out story that diverges from typical narratives filled with antagonists:

"I want to tell that story because I think it's just not a rebuke, but a differentiation from the normal coming out plot line." ([23:12])

Themes in His Memoir:

• Upbringing: Growing up in a socially conservative black Pentecostal church as a visibly queer individual.
• Cultural Impact: Exploring how pop culture influenced his identity and provided avenues for self-expression.
• Personal Anecdotes: Stories like attempting to watch Brokeback Mountain with his mother as a strategic move to facilitate his coming out.

Sam expresses both excitement and apprehension about the writing process, especially the upcoming intensive writer's workshop at UCLA Extension School:

"I'm scared to death." ([22:47])

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with mutual enthusiasm about Sam's upcoming book project and a heartfelt exchange of book recommendations. Sam's integrity and passion for both reading and storytelling shine throughout the conversation, offering listeners a deep dive into the interplay between literature, personal identity, and cultural commentary.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• On Reading for Personal Enjoyment:

  "I've been doing more just reading for Sam." ([02:21])

• On "Food Person":

  "Food Person is all about this awkward struggling food writer … hilarity ensues." ([04:06])

• Preference for Physical Books:

  "I love the way it feels on my hands." ([07:30])

• On Erasure Adaptation:

  "He gives you more of that than the book does because he's smart." ([15:16])

• Controversial Opinion on Nonfiction:

  "Most tweets should never exist." ([18:23])

• Aspirations to Write a Memoir:

  "I want to tell that story because I think it's just not a rebuke, but a differentiation from the normal coming out plot line." ([23:12])

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Final Thoughts

This episode of "Open Book" offers a rich and engaging exploration of Sam Sanders' relationship with literature, his critical perspectives on media adaptations, and his personal journey towards writing a memoir. Through candid conversations and insightful reflections, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of Sanders' multifaceted approach to culture and storytelling. Whether you're a fan of his podcasting work or new to his voice, this episode provides valuable insights into the mind of a modern cultural commentator.

Transcript

[Sam Sanders]

Hey, y'. All. Each week on the Sam Sanders show, we ask big questions and offer hot takes about the pop culture we're obsessed with. Like, should we be allowed to talk at the movie theater? Are stadium concerts boring now? Is it time to stop making bingeable tv? Join me and a bunch of comics and journalists and celebrities as we make sense of the zeitgeist, or at least make fun of it. The Sam Sanders show, wherever you get your podcast and on YouTube.

[Elena Passarello]

Hi there. I'm writer Elena Passarello, and this is Open Book, a literary podcast from Livewire Radio, brought to you by Powell's Books, where we talk to writers about their reading habits. Now, when I'm not having fun being Livewire's announcer, writing is my job. I'm the author of two books, and I'm currently working on my third one, which is haunting my dreams. I also teach writing here in Oregon. And. And all of this is to say that books are pretty much without exaggeration my whole life. I even keep a running tab of nerdy book jokes in my notes app. Here is a recent favorite. Dystopian novels are so 1984. Anyway, this week on Open Book, I'm talking to the one and only Sam Sanders. Although Sam is perhaps best known for his audio work, you've probably heard him on NPR Politics or It's been a minute or both of his great podcasts, Vibe Check and the Sam Sanders Show. His writing has appeared in the New York Magazine, Politico Magazine, and the Washington Post. And he is known for his hot takes and his love for all things culture. And this makes him the perfect person to talk to about my favorite cultural vehicle, the written word. This conversation with Sam was as energized and fun as I expected it would be. And we cover a real variety of things, like how to rep your favorite book through your fashion choices and which screen adaptations we think really got the books right, even if we haven't gotten around to reading the original books yet. Here he is, Sam Sanders on Open Book. Sam Sanders, welcome to Open Book.

[Sam Sanders]

It's so good to be here. And I'm like feeling good about being here because I do just finished a good book on vacation, and I'm about to fall in love with a new book that I've just started. So I'm in a good book space right now, so this feels nice.

[Elena Passarello]

So vacation book. Let's start with that. What do you usually do? What did you just do? How'd it go? Tell me everything.

[Sam Sanders]

For a very long time, my reading Was basically what is the next thing I need to read for work, you know, And I purposely stepped back from doing as many book interviews maybe two or three years ago because I wanted to savor them all and I wanted my reading to feel more just me doing it for me. Cause even if the book is fun, if you're reading it for work, it's still work.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah.

[Sam Sanders]

Or part of your brain tells you that, you know.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah.

[Sam Sanders]

So I've been doing more just reading for Sam. And I am lucky enough to have a lot of books mailed to me all the time. And I'm sure you have this problem too. Cause as soon as you begin to do interviews about books, everyone wants to send you their books. I have an ex who I know still gets a bunch of galleys at his house. Sorry, dude.

[Elena Passarello]

Anywho.

[Sam Sanders]

But I got a galley a few weeks before I went to Spain for a friend's wedding. A food writer who I got to know through various circles here in Los Angeles. His name is Adam Roberts. He sent me his debut novel, which is called Food Person. And I'm wearing the hat that came with the book called Food Person.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah, you've got like a cranium advertisement. So you're not advertising yourself as a food person, you're advertising a novel written by a food writer.

[Sam Sanders]

Exactly. Yes.

[Elena Passarello]

Tell me more. What's it about? How's it go?

[Sam Sanders]

This book is so fun. Like from the very first page, you are invested and you're kind of just like lol ing the entire time. Food Person is all about this awkward struggling food writer who wants to become a food writer of note, but but realizes she doesn't have the charisma to be an engaging on camera personality, which is what you need in this day and age. So she's feeling stuck, doesn't know what to do next. But then a golden opportunity surfaces to ghost write a cookbook for a celebrity who is kind of down on their luck.

[Elena Passarello]

Okay.

[Sam Sanders]

Hilarity ensues.

[Elena Passarello]

Do you have a sense of who the celebrity is based on or like, what genre?

[Sam Sanders]

So many.

[Elena Passarello]

Okay.

[Sam Sanders]

The celebrity in the book for whom the protagonist is ghostwriting the cookbook for is a mashup of any number of former young hot stars in their 20s who start to age out and start to spiral out. That is the celebrity in this book.

[Elena Passarello]

Oh, fun.

[Sam Sanders]

But this book, Food Person, it is what some folks might dismissively call a beach read or a summer read. I don't take those terms offensively. I think it's great. And I think this was. I Started reading the book when I was heading to Spain for this wedding. I lost the book in some layover, but I still had the food person hat. But I just then got the book on my Kindle and finished. Was so fun. I zoomed through it like within two or three days of vacation. And because I was wearing this food person hat the whole trip, everyone kept asking, what is that hat? Are you a food person? And I said, I am, but also there's a book. And I think I convinced three or four flight attendants to order my friend's book. So to all those writers out there, when you have swag for your next book, do a hat.

[Elena Passarello]

Do a hat. You know, I think about food writers writing nonfiction, like a memoir of eating or something, but you don't hear too much of a food writer who moves over to fiction. That's great. Yeah. And I don't know if they can like recall all of the copies that they've already sent out to write a new blurb. But what a great blurb is, I love this book. I lost it in the airport, so I had to find it and download it so I could finish it. Like, that's, that's when you know.

[Sam Sanders]

That's when you know.

[Elena Passarello]

So when you're traveling, when you're going cross country and going to a wedding and going to an exotic place, when do you find yourself doing the most reading?

[Sam Sanders]

If I can keep myself from buying airplane WI fi, I will read on a plane and love it. If I am near any body of water while on vacation, I want to sit by the water and read. And in general, part of my just like nighttime wind down routine is trying to read in bed as I fall asleep. I try and I still screwed up. I try to have my bedroom be a phone free zone. Because if I'm in my bedroom just reading, no matter how good the book is, in about 20 minutes I'm knocking.

[Elena Passarello]

Out, which is what I. Yeah, can you read a Kindle by the pool or by the beach? Like, are you able to read an electronic reader? I've never been able to do it.

[Sam Sanders]

I think like if you have the right sunglasses and can work with the glare and everything. But no, I will say I'm always partial to a physical book. I love the way it feels on my hands. I love seeing the COVID I love being able to show someone look at this book. But the Kindle can be nice because I'll do that thing where I'll be overly ambitious and say, I'm gonna bring five books on this vacation. I Don't read them all. I just have five books to lug around.

[Elena Passarello]

And then you find a new one in the airport or something that you want. Then you come home with six books.

[Sam Sanders]

You get it? You get it.

[Elena Passarello]

I feel like the new Flex is reading a paper book on the plane without any devices out. Like, it's so continental. Especially if you have on like a really nice outfit and you're just reading your book on the plane. It just feels like it's sophisticated. It's lux.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah, it is. Did you know? And this. I just found this out. The kids are doing this thing mostly like Gen Alpha guys. They will not use their cell phone an entire long flight and only look at the interactive flight map for the whole flight. You haven't seen this?

[Elena Passarello]

The little line with the plane.

[Sam Sanders]

Just what I want to say. They call it free ball in the flight. Let me look. Hold on.

[Elena Passarello]

Is it raw dogging?

[Laura Hadden]

Raw dogging. That's what it is.

[Sam Sanders]

Raw dogging the flight.

[Elena Passarello]

I'm like, you guys need to research the orig of that term.

[Sam Sanders]

It's the whole thing. I saw it a few weeks ago. I was like, well, good for them. They'll do anything but go to therapy.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah.

[Sam Sanders]

Raw dogging A flight refers to the act of taking a flight, especially a long haul, one without any form of entertainment or distraction and instead solely relying on the in flight map as a source of stimulation and timekeeping. They could just read a book.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah. How fun would that be to. I mean, it's so much more interesting than a flight track. I mean, I guess it's like, do you think it's real? Do you think they're really doing that? Or do you think they're just.

[Sam Sanders]

I can see it. I. I live in Southern California, the land of deep meditation. And what it sounds like they're locking into is a deep meditation.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah.

[Sam Sanders]

To which I say, go there. Be there.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah.

[Sam Sanders]

Enjoy it.

[Elena Passarello]

Be present. Watch that little. That little streak. So what's next for you, reading wise now that you're done with your vacation?

[Sam Sanders]

It is a deeply reported history of the drama, palace, intrigue and fireworks involved in the CBS and Viacom media dynasties.

[Elena Passarello]

Is it Unscripted? The Epic Battle for a Media empire.

[Sam Sanders]

That's what it is. Oh, my God. You're better than me at this. Unscripted. The Epic Battle for a Media Empire and the Redstone Family legacy. It's by James B. Stewart and Rachel Abrams. These are two investigative reporters who have covered the entertainment industry for a while, and they do this deep reported history of what the hell happened with CBS and Viacom? So you'll recall, at the height of MeToo, Les Moonves, head of CBS, had all of that drama over his me too situation. Then after that, there has been a year or two of palace intrigue about who the Redstone family will sell the Paramount media empire to. Those stories are interconnected and all of the men involved are trash. And this book goes there. It's amazing. Like, all of them are horrible. Narcissists, egotistical, bad. Thankfully, at least the elder Redstone, a lot of women take advantage of him. To which I say, good, okay, get this man's money. But yeah, it feels like succession. It feels like, like that kind of energy.

[Elena Passarello]

There you go.

[Sam Sanders]

And straight into my veins. I love content that makes me believe that all rich people are unhappy because that makes me feel happy about not being rich.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah, it sounds like it's also giving you. It's scratching two different itches. Like the it for deep reporting. I know you've trained as a reporter, like, really responsible, time consuming to journalists, but also hot gossip, you know, like. Yes, it's like succession meets, like Woodward and Bernstein.

[Sam Sanders]

Exactly, exactly. Well, and it's, It's. It's like part of the work. You know, a lot of my work is covering the entertainment industry. And I think when I started covering this kind of stuff, I was like, oh, it's. It's just about the art and the artists. No, it's a business. And these men matter and what they do matters. And knowing how they work is helpful into painting a clearer and more robust picture of what the hell the entertainment industry is right now.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah. Did you assign this to yourself or is this something that you're working on for a project or.

[Sam Sanders]

No. It's funny. I asked a dear friend of mine who was super into books to give me some advice for a good book to read. After I finished Food personally, I was like, tracy, I'm on a roll. Give me some more titles. And she's like, based on what you do and what you like. Check this one out. Her name is Tracy Thomas. She hosts a really great book podcast called the Stacks.

[Elena Passarello]

Oh, yeah.

[Sam Sanders]

And she's just good people. And literally having a friend where you can just say, I want a book, Tell me. And she just gives you something worthwhile.

[Elena Passarello]

That's the best. I like that she picked a real pivot for you from the novel, the fun. Like, she knows something about your personality that's like, I just ate the sweet, now I want the sal. Or like, she understands that you have A kind of mercurial spirit that needs to be. She didn't find you an identical book to the one that you just read, which is valid, too, you know?

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah, yeah. No, she's good. The one thing she does know about me, it's like, with all things that I consume, tv, movies, or books, I need plot. I need things to move. I need things to happen. I would love some good, punchy dialogue. I'm not into content. That is just, like, a slow moving, rumination meditation on, like, existence. Remember, was it, like, the era of Transparent? Really good TV show, but there'd just be minutes where, like, one of the lead characters would, like, walk around the house touching objects as music played.

[Elena Passarello]

That's not your mood. Moody is not your mood.

[Sam Sanders]

I need movement. Yeah. I need movement. Let's move. Yeah, you get it.

[Elena Passarello]

Speaking of movies, you know, I want to know if you have any ideas or if you have any favorite book adaptations into either films or television shows. Is there one that really got it right as far as you're concerned?

[Sam Sanders]

Mm.

[Elena Passarello]

I'll give you mine to just. I feel like Station 11 was a fabulous adaptation of that book and didn't. Wasn't like, 100% note for note, shot for shot, like, they kind of went their own way. But I feel like people who love the book will love it. I loved it. I thought that that was, like, for me, like, the gold standard of adaptations.

[Sam Sanders]

I've only heard good things about that. I need to watch the show and read the book. I really loved Nickel Boys last year, which is based on a Colson Whitehead book, but I haven't read the book yet, but the movie blew me away.

[Elena Passarello]

That's a funny thing, right? Sometimes you do see a movie version of an adaptation or a TV version of an adaptation, and you're kind of afraid to go to the book. Like, I saw the Great Gatsby movie before I read the Great Gatsby book. So then when I read the book, all I pictured were Robert Redford and Mia Farrow, and I was like, this is probably not what F. Scott Fitzgerald had in mind.

[Sam Sanders]

It's better than having to imagine the updated Great Gatsby with, like, was it a Baz Luhrmann treatment?

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah. Leo DiCaprio and Tobey Maguire. Yeah, that was a lot. Yeah. That's a headache in a bottle.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah. I'll tell you one. I thoroughly enjoyed the adaptation of Percival Everett's incredible novel Erasure that became American fiction, which last year won the OSC for best adapted screenplay. And the winner of that, the Writer and director of that film, Cord Jefferson. He's an old friend.

[Elena Passarello]

Oh, cool. That was a great adaptation.

[Sam Sanders]

So good. And, like, you realize he retooled a lot in a really, really smart way. And he did some things that were just gonna make this work more for moviegoers. Filmgoers, whether they admit it or not, they want something in the film that, like, makes their heart happy and gives them a little tingly love and joy. And he gives you more of that than the book does because he's smart. You know, both are beautiful. The book is pretty dark, and there are moments of, like, love in the movie that really make it work as a movie.

[Elena Passarello]

Ah, that's such a good point. And it's definitely plottier, right, Than the book, which sort of has this other kind of second novel inside of it.

[Sam Sanders]

Exactly. Which is great. The novel inside of a novel. Oh, my God, it was so good.

[Elena Passarello]

Do you think they're going to adapt James?

[Sam Sanders]

They have to.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah. I'm already casting it in my head.

[Sam Sanders]

Who do you cast? Also, for those listening, James is the retelling of Huck Finn, but this time the narrator is Jim the slave.

[Elena Passarello]

I'm imagining Colman Domingo. What do you think?

[Sam Sanders]

Oscar. Oscar. Oscar. But it's okay. Here's the thing, though. Is he big enough in size? Jim is big or Jim feels big? When I read the book.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah, that's why. So my favorite actor right now who could do it is Lakeith Stanfield. Lakeith Stanfield. So I love Lakeith Stanfield, but I feel like he might be small.

[Sam Sanders]

He's a skinny, mini. He's too little, tiny thing.

[Elena Passarello]

But he's such a character actor. I feel like he could swap back and forth really well.

[Sam Sanders]

You know, I know who could do it. His Atlanta co star, Brian Tyree Henry as James. James.

[Elena Passarello]

Oh, that would be great. He can do anything.

[Sam Sanders]

He's so good. He is so good.

[Elena Passarello]

I think we did it, Sam. I think we know we did it. Who can you call?

[Sam Sanders]

Let's call somebody. Get him on it. Now. That would be phenomenal.

[Elena Passarello]

I'm ready. I'm totally ready.

[Sam Sanders]

Same, same.

[Elena Passarello]

Okay, so we could talk to you all day, but we should wrap it up. But I'm really excited to ask you this last question. Sam Sanders. We always ask folks on open book to give us a controversial book opinion, and you are the CZ of hot takes.

[Sam Sanders]

So I don't know if I love that title. Czar of bad opinions.

[Elena Passarello]

So there's nothing I love. I love a. Yeah. So what do you have for Us today on open book. In terms of a controversial book opinion.

[Sam Sanders]

I have said this on a microphone before, and I stand by it. When it comes to written works, particularly for nonfiction writing, I believe most nonfiction books should actually just be a long form magazine article. Most long form nonfiction magazine articles should just be a series of tweets. And most tweets should never exist.

[Elena Passarello]

That's like a matrushka. That's like a Russian doll of hot takes. Yes, well, it is true. Sometimes you'll read a nonfict book and you can see the original article that it came from, and then it's usually.

[Sam Sanders]

The forward that tells you everything. And you're like, I'm good. Do I have to keep going?

[Elena Passarello]

And the book deal is all around it. Yeah. Like, it's sort of too expanded.

[Sam Sanders]

So you agree? Join me. I'm thinking.

[Elena Passarello]

No, I know. I'm just thinking about all the times in which I've, like, seen where the article stops and the project begins and it's like, oh, this is just to make it a book. But maybe, maybe it doesn't need to be a book. I'm in the middle of writing a long form nonfiction book, so hopefully that.

[Sam Sanders]

I take it back. I'm sorry. Yours is going to be great. Do three editions at this point.

[Elena Passarello]

I wish it was just a tweet, man. I really do.

[Sam Sanders]

Wait, what's it about?

[Elena Passarello]

It's about the spotty legacy of Elvis Presley and his movies. You know he made 31 movies?

[Sam Sanders]

Are you serious?

[Elena Passarello]

31?

[Sam Sanders]

How many were good?

[Elena Passarello]

Half of one, maybe. But I'll tell you this, about 28 of them are really interesting. So you could talk about. It's like Mad Men, you know, like he spent the whole 60s kind of playing the same character, and the whole world changed around him, and he didn't change. And the movies sort of do that as well. But that's neither here nor there.

[Sam Sanders]

I'll read that.

[Elena Passarello]

Thanks, Sam. Yeah, well, so now we need to get you some kind of a situation in which we need, like, a book that is just the long form articles of all of these things that used to be books. So you can kind of move back and forth between the two.

[Sam Sanders]

I want one of the big publishing houses, or even one of the small ones to start commissioning work from authors who usually write books. But I want them to say, we're gonna commission you for your idea as an article. 15,000 words or less.

[Elena Passarello]

Yes.

[Sam Sanders]

And to make sense of the publishing of it all, they can, like, bind many of these little mini books into one Little collection you get.

[Elena Passarello]

Variety. Yeah. Multiple voices.

[Sam Sanders]

Of course. As I hear myself saying this, I realize you and I are just recreating the magazine.

[Elena Passarello]

Oh, no.

[Sam Sanders]

Which.

[Elena Passarello]

Which got murdered.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah. Yeah. So I don't have a fix. I actually don't have a fix.

[Elena Passarello]

The one thing we don't need is a collection of tweets.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah, don't print and bind the tweets, whatever y' all do. No, no one do that.

[Elena Passarello]

Do you think that's ever going to happen, by the way? You know how they have, like, the collected letters of Mark Twain or something like that? Do you think you could ever have, like, the collected tweets of Sam Sanders as part of our legacy?

[Sam Sanders]

Some of them are bad. I mean, I feel like increasingly there's going to be a question of, like, what actually lives on the Internet and what just, like, quietly goes away. I think that probably a good half of the work that I did as a reporter that went, like, online to a website. You probably can't find it now. You probably can't find it. And that's life.

[Elena Passarello]

You feel okay about that?

[Sam Sanders]

Oh, yeah. Some of that shit was bad. Sorry, I shouldn't use profanity.

[Elena Passarello]

No, it's fine. We're online only. Do you think you'd ever write a book, Sam? Is that in you at some point in your life?

[Sam Sanders]

Can I tell you something? Oh, my God. I'm telling the secret out loud. But this is fun. And I like you. I have been on the fence about writing a book for many years, and I have pages, but not a full proposal yet, but through the power of public education and the UCLA extension school, I start a 10 week intensive writer's workshop this evening.

[Elena Passarello]

Shut up, Sam Sanders.

[Sam Sanders]

So it's really great that we're talking today. It's fitting.

[Elena Passarello]

Will you be talking with the other writers who are kind of thinking about putting a book together as well? Is that the nature of the course?

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah, we'll be critiquing pages and I'm scared to. To death.

[Elena Passarello]

Do you have your pages ready or is that later in the term?

[Sam Sanders]

I had to submit thousands of words just to be considered for the.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah.

[Sam Sanders]

For this thing. So there's some already. And I think this first night, I think we're just gonna be like, hey, how are you? But we start critiquing other people's pages in a week, and I'm just like, lord, help me.

[Elena Passarello]

Are you writing about yourself? Are you writing about culture? A little bit of the two.

[Sam Sanders]

Where's a little bit of the two? So long Story short, I grew up in a very socially conservative black Pentecostal church where perhaps the biggest sin was homosexuality. I also grew up in this church as someone visibly queer. And it was the one place in my youth where I knew I wouldn't be bullied for sounding too gay. Like this weird juxtaposition.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah, yeah, totally.

[Sam Sanders]

I grow up and I leave church and move away to, like, go be gay. And I fully expect two things to happen. One, I'll become an atheist, and two, my church will disown me. Neither thing happened. Whoa. It just ended up being this coming out story with no villains. And so I want to tell that story because I think it's just not a rebuke, but a differentiation from the normal coming out plot line. I leave you behind. I hate you. It's like, no, I love you. I love you. You still love me. It was just weird for a while. So that's. But I also want to talk about all of the pieces of pop culture through my youth that helped me get to the place where I felt comfortable really being me. So one of the essays is the time when I thought I was smart and was going to convince my mother, my Pentecostal church organist mother, to watch Brokeback Mountain with me. Whoa. Because you'll remember back in the day when they were first pushing the film, they didn't advertise it as overtly gay. It was a cowboy movie, Right. And if you knew it was gay, you knew. My mother didn't know it was a cowboy movie. So I was like, oh, I'll watch this with her. It'll help me come out. Not quite so. Like, that's one of the essays.

[Elena Passarello]

Whoa.

[Sam Sanders]

Or there's a story of the gospel song I grew up playing for years in church as a kid on the saxophone. It was my saxophone solo. Didn't realize until my 30s that the woman who sang the original is a lesbian.

[Elena Passarello]

What's the song?

[Sam Sanders]

It's called thank you, Lord. It came from the Hawkins family. You know, the Hawkins family is most known for oh, Happy Day, but they have a library of great gospel. And one of the songs I used to play at church all the time was this song called thank you, Lord. It's about eight minutes long, and there's this lovely woman singing the lead the whole time. And I would try to play my saxophone like she sang it. And a listener pointed out to me after I mentioned this song on one of my podcasts a while back, oh, you know, she's a lesbian, she's in the bay, and she's married to a woman. I'm like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. So essays that are like reflections on pieces of pop culture that also tie into my story, et cetera. Then a little bit of, like, here. A little bit of the history of black queerness in the church. Cause it's always been there. Now I've talked your ear off. You're not my book agent. I'm sorry. I've given you too much.

[Elena Passarello]

I have three words. Sam Sanders, where's the hat? I am going to wear the hat with your book title. You had me at essays and pop culture, and now I am. I'm covering my head with whatever this book is called. I am ready for it.

[Sam Sanders]

Oh, my God. Thank you.

[Elena Passarello]

I can't wait. I love that you're going back to school to think about how you could do it. And I know that no matter when or where it happens, it's going to be something that I can't wait to read. I'm so excited. That made my day hearing about this.

[Sam Sanders]

Oh, thank you. You made my day. This was the time I, like, said it on a microphone so it feels real. And the first hat's yours.

[Elena Passarello]

You heard it here first. Open book. I am the first hat recipient of to be named Sam Sanders Book Project. Sam Sanders, thank you so much for coming on our podcast. I love talking to you.

[Sam Sanders]

This is delightful. Give me a book recommendation before we leave. I trust your opinion.

[Elena Passarello]

I just read an interesting kind of wild bit of reportage about the history of submersible. So, like submarines? Yeah, like, submarines, when they began, were just these little bitty pods that people would kind of just like, like, like pedal, like a pedicle, almost going all the way to the submersible that was lost looking for the Titanic a couple of years ago. It was really interesting. It's by this writer named Matthew Gavin Frank. Yeah, he just, he approaches facts and nonfiction in these. These really interesting ways. So I love. Yeah, done.

[Sam Sanders]

I'm on it. All right. This has been so fun. Let me know how you like Food Person, because you got to read it.

[Elena Passarello]

I can't wait. Awesome. Thanks, Sam.

[Sam Sanders]

Thank you so much.

[Elena Passarello]

That was Sam Sanders on Open Book. You can check him out on his various radio shows and podcasts, including the Sam Sanders show from KCRW and one of my favorite podcasts ever, Vibe Check. Thanks for listening to Open Books. I'm Elena Passarello, your host. Our executive producer is Laura Hadden, and our producer and editor is Melanie Sevchenko. Eben Hoffer is our Technical Director Hazik Bin Ahmad Farid is our mixer, Awalker Spring composed our theme song and Ashley park is our social media marketer. A big thanks to the entire staff at Livewire Radio, the fine folks at prx, and of course Powell's Books for sponsoring this podcast.

[Unknown]

This show is supported by Odoo. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out Odoo at o d o o.com that's o d o o.com.

[Laura Hadden]

Hey, if you appreciate the work that Livewire is doing to amplify riveting and unexpected voices to a national audience, and I gotta tell you, it's a big audience these days, please, please, please consider offering some monthly support by becoming a member of our league of Extraordinary Listeners. Here's how it works. Membership starts at just five bucks a month and there are great perks at every level, including a special shout out on the broadcast. Impress your friends by being shouted out on Livewire. It means the world to us and really does make it possible for us to do the show. So please, if you can, help, support us by visiting livewireradio.org memberships.

[Elena Passarello]

From PRX.