Eric Thomas (2:44)

I don't need to. Another voice telling you that you are a bad person. What I can say is, I see you person to person, and here's a path out of the situation that you're in.

Elena Passarello (2:52)

Leaders of the church of Stop shopping, Reverend Billy and Savitri D. One lady.

Reverend Billy (2:58)

Thought we were robbing the bank, not singing a song about the golden toad and how it went extinct from climate change.

Elena Passarello (3:07)

With music from the broody brothers and our fabulous house band. I'm your announcer, Elaina Passarello. And now the host of Livewire, Luke Burbank.

Luke Burbank (3:21)

Hey, thank you so much, Elaina Passarello. Thanks to everyone for tuning in from all over America for this week's episode of Livewire. We got a good one in store for you. Of course, we're gonna kick things off the way we always do with the best news we heard all week. This is our little check in the top of the show that there is, in fact, some good happening somewhere on planet Earth, and we're gonna find it. And that's what we did this week. Alayna, what's the best news that you heard all week?

Elena Passarello (3:52)

Okay, I have to start with a question for you. Luke Burbank, when you were in high school, did you letter in anything?

Luke Burbank (3:59)

I did, but I went to a very small high school where I think everyone got to letter in something.

Sponsor/Announcer (4:06)

What?

Luke Burbank (4:06)

There was like, 90 kids in the entire high school.

Elena Passarello (4:09)

What was your letter in?

Luke Burbank (4:10)

Well, I lettered in basketball and soccer and in being turned down by people who I asked to go to the junior prom.

Elena Passarello (4:18)

Oh, okay. Well, aside from that last one, that's kind of the classic Letterman situation. Like, I think in the original sort of construction of what it meant to letter, it was sports. You could only letter in sports. And then you'd go to the soda fountain with your letterman sweater on and look like a big man on campus. Years ago, like, back when I was in high school, you could letter in other things. Like, I lettered in drama.

Luke Burbank (4:43)

I remember when they added some of the other classes and clubs, which I thought was a nice addition.

Elena Passarello (4:48)

By the way, in a lot of places around the country, there are things that students work really hard at in high school that you can't get a letter in. Like in Snohomish High School, which has the classic sports and academic letters. But there are people like Elizabeth Bogan and Remus Fox Bailey who are spending most of their high school careers taking skilled trade classes like welding and manufacturing and all the things that we drama and orchestra majors probably should have paid a little more attention to.

Luke Burbank (5:18)

Turns out there might Be more money in welding than community theater.

Elena Passarello (5:22)

Well, Alyssa, to this, not only is Elizabeth Bogan an amazing skilled trades person, she's also a little bit of an activist because she petitioned her school district. And as of this year, at Snohomish High School, you can receive the first letter, high school letter in the state of Washington in skilled trades, which is just such a cool thing. Like, to. To let her in welding. And listen to this. Elizabeth Bogan already has a job lined up after she graduates. She included the story of her petitioning for this letter situation in her job materials, and she's going straight to Boeing in the spring. So another reason to do this is that the Snohomish High School letter is going to be really well represented by a person who's that successful at 18 right now.

Luke Burbank (6:10)

Do you get like a. Because, you know, like, if you let her in a sport at my school, you would get like a little basketball if that was a sport, a little football. Do you get, like, a welding torch?

Elena Passarello (6:22)

Oh, I hope so.

Luke Burbank (6:23)

Like, I really think that would take it to another level.

Elena Passarello (6:25)

Yeah. I don't know what the exact tool is, but whatever it is, it's going to be cooler than the mask of comedy and drama that I got on mine for lettering.

Luke Burbank (6:34)

We need to have a new way of representing the dramatic arts than the comedy and tragedy mask all these years later. Well, speaking of the arts, I've got a story for you. It's actually out of British Columbia, where a woman named Sharon Marnell has been embarking on a project to put something together in Canada. Now, actually, the story for her started off when she was living in England a number of years ago. She was actually sitting in a Jacuzzi. I guess she had some sort of a, like, sore shoulder, and she was trying to remedy it with the warm waters of the Jacuzzi. And she was singing, and another woman came over and was sitting in the Jacuzzi and said, you have a really nice singing voice. In fact, it's so nice that you would not be allowed to join our choir. And Sharon was like, what? That's a weird thing to say to someone in a Jacuzzi. The woman said, because the choir that I'm in is called a tuneless choir, and it is specifically for people that are not particularly great singers.

Elena Passarello (7:36)

Nice.

Luke Burbank (7:38)

And meanwhile, Sharon Marnell had actually gone to college for music and was actually, like, pretty good at singing and kind of understands music theory, but was very intrigued by this idea of this tuneless choir. So she reached out to some people and she Actually started her own tuneless choir in England. She ended up actually starting three of them total. Wow. And has now moved to British Columbia, where she's bringing the idea over there. This is, like, apparently kind of a big thing in England. It was invented in, like, 2016, the idea of the tuneless Cho.

Elena Passarello (8:09)

So you probably don't spend a lot of time in rehearsal trying to get the pitches just right, for example. You focus on other things.

Luke Burbank (8:14)

There are no rehearsals, Elena. And also no auditions. It's like if you're at, like, a baseball game and everyone's singing take me out to the ball game, there is this thing musically that can happen where as long as there are enough people, you tend to find sort of the tune. This is some of the tuneless choir. This is Sharon Marnell leading the tuneless choir. They're singing that I would walk 500 miles song. This is Sharon singing. So Sharon's, like, up there, she's got one of those, like, headset microphones on. And then the music and then surrounding her on the stage is just like, literally like a hundred people in matching T shirts that are singing their absolute hearts out, occasionally getting close to the tune of the song but just having the times of their lives. And basically, like, you know, there is this whole sort of group of folks who. And I won't name them specifically, but just say I'm related to. To some people that fall into this category who just absolutely love singing but were not maybe blessed with the most natural sense of the tune of a song. I mean, we used karaoke and alcohol for this for many, many years.

Elena Passarello (9:42)

Yeah.

Luke Burbank (9:42)

But it's nice to see that there's a new place that you can go and sing, even if maybe you're not the most talented singer, but you can still have fun up there in British Columbia. So the growth of the tuneless choir, that's the best news that I heard all week. All right, let's welcome our first guest on over to the show. What do you do, Elena, when Your husband of 50 plus years insists on peeing off of your patio instead of into a toilet?

Elena Passarello (10:18)

Move and get divorced or.

Luke Burbank (10:21)

Okay, how about this? What about if you need to figure out how to elegantly back out of an agreement to be a gestational carrier for a friend of a friend? Well, here's what you can do. You ask our first guest this week. He is the national bestselling author, television writer, playwright, and most relevantly for our purposes, the guy behind the syndicated advice column known as Asking Eric. This is our Eric Thomas, who Joined us on stage at the Nordstrom Recital hall at Benaroya hall in Seattle recently. Take a listen. Eric, welcome to the show.

Eric Thomas (11:00)

Thank you.

Luke Burbank (11:01)

The last time we had you on the show, you were talking about your memoir. Congratulations, The Best Is Over. It's a lot funnier than the title would make it sound. I want to be clear, but I don't know if you had this. I don't think you had this job at the time.

Eric Thomas (11:16)

I didn't.

Luke Burbank (11:17)

How did this come about? How did you become America's advice columnist?

Eric Thomas (11:20)

Well, okay, so you're familiar with the show Squid Game?

Luke Burbank (11:23)

Yes.

Eric Thomas (11:24)

Very similar process.

Luke Burbank (11:25)

Okay.

Eric Thomas (11:26)

Yeah. No, actually, so I. Years ago, I wrote a column for Elle magazine that was. It was not advice. It was about politics and pop culture. And so that introduced me to the column space. And so, dear Prudence, the Slate column reached out to me to substitute for a little bit while their regular columnist was on leave. And so I got to do that, which was very fun. I got to be silly and sassy, but also sort of use a different part of my brain. Years later, they were looking for someone to take over this column, and they reached out to me and I didn't really even know. They didn't tell me what it was. They were like, are you interested in a column? And I was like, yes.

Luke Burbank (12:05)

Would you like to play A Most Dangerous Game?

Eric Thomas (12:09)

Have you heard of print media? I know, I know. And anyway, so it was kind of cloaked in secrecy, which made a lot of sense, because I think at that time, the column I took over was written by Amy Dickinson.

Luke Burbank (12:24)

For years, Ask Amy.

Eric Thomas (12:26)

Ask Amy. Very popular, and she had not yet announced her retirement. And so I didn't know what I was auditioning for. They gave me some questions and they asked me to write my thoughts.

Sponsor/Announcer (12:37)

And.

Eric Thomas (12:37)

And so I did. And then they gave me feedback, and it was a back and forth process for a little while, and finally they were like, okay, we're going to take you into the room and tell you what's going on. It was a zoom, actually, but. But, yeah. So anyway, the long story short is they found me and they. I think they were vetting a lot of people, and I'm very fortunate that they liked the way that I wrote.

Luke Burbank (13:00)

So do you remember what any of those, like, test questions were? You, like, when someone auditions for a role, sometimes they'll remember the moment when, like, the casting director saw them as the person. Did you, like, nail one of these questions?

Eric Thomas (13:12)

I did. Okay. So there were two that I remember very clearly. One was, it was and they were fake questions. One was a mother who was trying to figure out how to buy clothing for their gender non conforming child. And they were like, I don't know what to start. I don't want to offend this. That. And the third, and I was like, oh great. Well, here are these companies that are run by trans and gender non conforming or non binary people that make clothing specifically for people like your child. And I think that you can pull a page up and look at it with your child and say, hey, is this of interest to you? Your birthday's coming up, holidays are coming up, let's go on a shopping spree.

Luke Burbank (13:54)

You don't think Ann Landers would have nailed that one?

Eric Thomas (13:57)

I'm sure Ann Landers would have nailed that one.

Luke Burbank (13:59)

I mean, like, of the five gender non conforming clothing stores that I tend to frequent, this would be the top.

Eric Thomas (14:05)

Yeah, I mean, Ann Landers did not have access to Google, I guess, for most of her career. And so like, you know, it's helpful. I mean, one of the companies actually was run by a friend of mine. So like, so that kind of helped. But yeah, it's a very different landscape to write a column in than Ann was writing. But you know, Anne's column became Amy's column, which is now mine. So I tell people that I'm grand. Lander.

Luke Burbank (14:31)

You are listening to Livewire from prx. We're talking to our Eric Thomas about his advice column. It's known as asking. Eric, we've got to take a very quick break, but don't go anywhere much more. Livewire coming your way in just a moment.

Sponsor/Announcer (14:50)

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Luke Burbank (16:56)

This is Livewire from prx. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. We are playing an interview we recorded with our Eric Thomas. He's a playwright and author and also the person behind the Asking Eric advice column, which is and newspapers all over America. Let's jump back into that conversation. We recorded this at the Nordstrom Recital hall at Benaroya hall in Seattle, Washington. One thing about these advice columns, the way that I figured out you had the gig was like every time I would look at a newspaper, I would see your face. Yes. It's like part of the job is there's always a picture of you. It's like being the real estate agent of the newspaper. We're going to see your picture. What's that like for you to have so many people now recognize your face?

Eric Thomas (17:44)

Yeah, I was not prepared for that part because, you know, I'm like shrunk down, you know. And it's this headshot from Pre Covid. So like the light was still in my eyes and I'm like, I can't take a new one. And it's interesting because also when people share the articles online, sometimes the paper like the picture like blows up huge. And I've had people email me and say, your face is too big in my email. And I'm like, oh, wow, that's a problem. I can't really help you with. But I will. People, you know, I do a fair number of things. I host the moth and I've written books. And so people will sometimes say to me, like, where do I know you from? Which is always a question that I'm.

Luke Burbank (18:27)

Like, that's so loaded.

Eric Thomas (18:28)

Yeah. Do you think. I don't know. Do you think I'm Morgan Freeman? I don't know what you. I don't know. I don't know what's going on. Let's go with anything here. And it used to be I just looked like somebody's cousin. I'm like, oh, I look like your cousin. Didn't matter the race. I just look like your cousin. But now I say, like, do you read the newspaper? And they're always like, oh. And it's either. It's very interesting, two very different responses. Either, oh, I read your column every day. I love it. Or, oh, you wrote something I didn't like.

Luke Burbank (18:55)

Oh, no.

Eric Thomas (18:56)

And I always feel the need to, like, apologize a little bit, but also like, thank you for reading. I'm going to go now.

Luke Burbank (19:04)

It also seems like if you're actually writing responses that are useful, they will be polarizing.

Eric Thomas (19:09)

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Luke Burbank (19:09)

Because the alternative is to write something that's just so kind of milquetoast that nobody's mad about it. But also, did you even really help the person who was asking for the advice?

Eric Thomas (19:19)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Elena Passarello (19:20)

That's gotta be hard to not just kind of give the people pleasing answer that neutralizes everything. Because you do want to have it be not a conversation starter, but you want it to be about the muddier parts of human life.

Luke Burbank (19:31)

Well, for instance, like in Tedious cookie tradition, taxes, family ties. A recent question posed to you, I recall it was someone writing in because they've been making these holiday cookies that are like, very involved and the people in their family they've been sending them to are not really, like, getting hyped enough about it to where like, they used to send photos of them with the cookies. And now the person making the cookies texted, did you get the cookies? And the response was, yeah, we got them. And they want to know if they need to keep making the cookies. So I'm sorry, back to Elena's question. How do you figure out how to answer a question like that so that it's useful for everybody?

Eric Thomas (20:10)

Yeah, well, when people. When I started the column, people were like, what qualifies you to give advice? You know, And I would say. Which sounds. It's a little flippant, but it's Also true. I'm somebody who's made a lot of mistakes and, like, I don't come at it as I'm an authority. And so if I was an authority or if I was trying to create some sort of chatgpt answer or like, and people do, they write to me sometimes they're like, are you AI? And I'm like, babe, no, look at the picture, look at the picture. No, but I. But I, like, I just lead with this with empathy. And sometimes empathy says, hey, I know that you're in this conflict with your sister, with your parents, with your child, and your feelings are valid, but also I think that maybe you're in the wrong a little bit here or you're right and it's still bad, it's still unfortunate, and you're going to have to just sort of accept it. And yeah, sometimes those things. A lot of times when I get a large number of responses every day, which is great. I love the responses.

Luke Burbank (21:15)

The radio listeners did not see what Eric did right after he said, I love the responses.

Elena Passarello (21:21)

A little flinch.

Eric Thomas (21:23)

Yeah, I should clarify.

Luke Burbank (21:24)

Tiny flinch.

Eric Thomas (21:25)

I love the responses that are polite. Some people have a tendency to think, if I'm typing into an email box, I can treat you any kind of way. And I want to respond with advice like, hey, I think that you should consider humans. But that is few and far between. But any case, sometimes the response is people are saying, like, you should have just taken that person to task. And my feeling is always there is just so many ways to be told that you're wrong and you're bad in this world. Particularly now that I don't need to be another voice telling you that you are a bad person. What I can say is I see you person to person, and here's a path out of the situation that you're in.

Luke Burbank (22:01)

Yeah. You're listening to Livewire radio from prx. We're talking to our Eric Thomas, the writer behind the Asking Eric column here from Benaroya hall in Seattle this week. I heard something the other day about sort of like the mapping software approach to dealing with people who are maybe struggling or maybe doing stuff you don't like, which is, if you think about it, and you're driving and you have the map on, in your car, on your phone and you miss your turn, it doesn't yell at you, it just reroutes you, just keeps rerouting you to where you're trying to go. I feel like that's kind of what you're talking about. About, not just like yelling at someone, but just like, just, okay, well, there's another turn coming up here.

Elena Passarello (22:46)

Calculating.

Luke Burbank (22:47)

And now there's another turn. We could just. We're just gonna keep working our way towards this goal.

Eric Thomas (22:51)

Yes, that's. That is a great, great metaphor. Like, that is exactly what I try to do. And, you know, there. I'm sure there's some mapping softwares that are like, you're an idiot.

Luke Burbank (23:02)

That's such a setting you can do.

Eric Thomas (23:04)

Exactly. I don't like that. I don't respond well to. And I don't think other people like that. Every once in a while, I might get a little bit arch, but, like, again, I wrote a column for years for Elle magazine where I was very arch. It was just me talking about politics and pop culture from 2016 to 2020. So just a rich text.

Luke Burbank (23:26)

Those were pretty chill years.

Eric Thomas (23:27)

Absolutely, absolutely. And so, like, I can be sassy, sarcastic, sardonic, but this is a person who is at their wit's end to such an extent that they're writing to a stranger in the newspaper. I don't think of that as desperate or as pitiful. I think of that as. So I feel. I see that as an honor that I have to hold really, really carefully. And so people will say, like, oh, that was a silly question. Why'd you answer it? Because somebody has this problem. And I take that. I take that very seriously.

Luke Burbank (24:02)

You also recently responded to a question from uneasy Grandma, still married, grandson wants to bring his new girlfriend to visit. And I believe the issue was that the grandson was still technically married, although had been separated for five years, which I thought, you know, calm down, grandma. But she didn't want. She didn't want him to bring his new girlfriend to the gathering because she felt like it was awkward because he was still technically married. I don't know. You write a lot of these columns. Do you remember, sort of roughly what your advice was on that for her? More or less?

Eric Thomas (24:36)

Gosh, I don't.

Luke Burbank (24:38)

I just read it. So I think what you told.

Eric Thomas (24:40)

Please. I was like, I could struggle through this or you could just tell.

Luke Burbank (24:43)

Yeah, that was. That was really. I really sandbagged you there. And I apologize. I'm also low key auditioning for your job if you ever don't want it. So I had to try to slide in there and show my skills. No, I think you basically said, like, talk to the grandson about what your kind of hopes are for this get together and what you're really looking forward to and listen to him about what he's really looking forward to don't start with. And don't put like, you're not invited in the initial conversations or, you know, don't bring your partner. Like, just see what you're hoping for and what he's hoping for. And if there's something in the middle that can be achieved that fits both of your hopes that isn't this extreme thing of like, don't bring your girlfriend.

Eric Thomas (25:24)

Yeah, yeah, that's good advice.

Luke Burbank (25:25)

I thought it was very. That was very good advice because that's the kind of thing I feel like you're really, you're working at a time when family stress is at like an all time high. You know, these are very fertile years for the advice columnist who's talking about how do we deal with our family, who we don't see eye to eye with.

Eric Thomas (25:44)

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think so much of it is about conversation. So much of it, like that question is also about taking a step back and saying, I think I haven't acknowledged what my expectations of myself and of you are. So let me voice those and then ask you what yours are. Interestingly with that question, I remember some of the responses. Actually, a lot of people or some people wrote to me and said, you know, the son is still married. He shouldn't be allowed to bring a girlfriend to the house. Either he should get a formal divorce or no girlfriend. And I don't happen to agree the girlfriend exists. So let's look at what's reality. But I do recognize that when you're giving advice, you're also reflecting your relationship to the world and to morals and values. Early on in my tenure, there was a couple that was clearly just sort of not aligned. They were kind of icy, but the wife and the couple had essentially a boyfriend. And I said, you are in an open relationship, so you should just formally acknowledge that people didn't like that.

Luke Burbank (26:49)

Really?

Eric Thomas (26:49)

Yeah. And I wasn't saying I'm going to. I'm advocating here's the book on polyamory. But I'm saying, let's look at what is in front of us and acknowledge the facts and move from there. So, like, this is not a column where I'm going to give you my own personal morals, but like, my compass for the world is going to be oriented one way and it might be different than other people's and that's okay.

Luke Burbank (27:11)

And it would seem that the readership would skew towards. Not always, but it could go towards a group of people that just might, you know, maybe not be as progressive or as. I mean, again, there's all kinds of people that read the newspaper. But I just wonder about, for instance, there is a rich history of like out gay men writing advice columns. Savage Love from right here in Seattle, Washington, Dan Savage. But your, you're as an out gay man writing really like the biggie and the most mainstream of these columns that's reaching just like so many people, not somebody who grabbed an alt weekly and is likely coming from a sort of, you know, sort of pre existing worldview. How do you think about how you answer questions and how you, you know, advocate for inclusion and for people thinking about, about relationships, difference and gender different and all that stuff.

Eric Thomas (28:00)

It's interesting. I get a lot of responses from people who say I wasn't expecting to enjoy your column. What could you know about this? Which like that I appreciate. And then sometimes they get really specific, you know, like race or sexual orientation or whatever and I'm like, okay, thank you. I get it. I think I understand. And like I don't feel the need to defend myself. But I think one of the opportunities that anybody who has ever felt other or outside has is that you are, you were trained from birth to think not only about how you as a fully realized person are operating in the world, but also how other people are operating at you, around you, how they're perceiving you. And so you are always working with an empathetic mind, you know, and so it isn't that I have lived the same life as somebody, you know, a Mormon mom in Utah, but like you.

Luke Burbank (28:53)

Can study them now through every reality show.

Eric Thomas (28:55)

Exactly.

Luke Burbank (28:56)

Yeah, you need to. They're now a well documented species.

Johannes or Conrad or George (Broody Brothers) (28:59)

Right.

Eric Thomas (29:00)

But like, and so like if I, if I don't find the answers on Secret Lives and Mormon Wives, I can also just think this is a person, you know, and I am a person and the person in me sees the person in them. I've also, I've been married, I've been, I've, I've, I've tried to relate to people. I've, I've had jobs that didn't work out. You know, these are, these are human problems.

Luke Burbank (29:22)

Our Eric Thomas is the person behind Asking. Eric, thank you so much for coming on Livewire.

Eric Thomas (29:26)

Thank you.

Luke Burbank (29:31)

That right there was our Eric Thomas here on Livewire. You can catch Eric's advice column. It's Asking Eric syndicated in newspapers around the country. And if you're in Baltimore, keep an eye out for a new musical. It's called Extravaganza, which Eric helped. It will be coming soon to the Baltimore Center Stage. Hey, Special thanks this episode to David and Melody Bell of Beaverton, Oregon, who are part of the Livewire member community and are generously supporting our show with a donation each month. They are members of the League of Extraordinary Listeners and are extremely vital to the financial mission of Livewire. We could not do this without the support of, of our members. So thanks again, David and Melody, for keeping Livewire going. You're tuned into livewire. All right. We are going to try something a little unusual for us here. We're going to go to church, but not just any church. The Church of Stop Shopping, which is led by Reverend Billy. It blends performance art with politics and a genuine spiritual calling. Now, the ministry debuted back in 1998 in Times Square with a protest outside the Disney Store where they proclaimed Mickey Mouse the Antichrist and Elena. They have not slowed down since they were even on tour with Neil Young. Recently here with a prophetic word, as we used to say in the church when I was growing up, about the better life that we can all have. Let's take a listen to Reverend Billy. This was recorded live at Revolution hall in Portland, Oregon, last December.

Reverend Billy (31:26)

Oh, welcome to the Church of Stop Shopping. Some of our friends in New York call us the Earth Church. That's good. That works. We love the Earth. We're guided by the Earth. We don't want the Earth to be hurt. We don't want the Earth to be poisoned by our products.

Johannes or Conrad or George (Broody Brothers) (31:48)

Stop.

Reverend Billy (31:50)

Stop shopping. Stop shopping. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Sorry about the spit. It's sacred spit. We've been shouting that kind of message for over 20 years in our church and mixed results. Obviously. The Earth is Now in the 29th month of record global heat wave. This whole city's bursting into flames. American consumerism is a driver of this thing. We're trying to survive. Stop. Stop Shopping. We can't do it. We're not doing it. We're not doing it. We have more carbon in the. We have more poison. We have more methane. We have more fluorinated gases. The greenhouse gases are more and more every year, every month. We're not stopping. 100 million migrants wandering, looking for a home. The droughts, the impossibility of farming, the unpredictability of the seasons. We've got an emergency here and we want. We want to give to our children and to our loved ones a healthy Earth. We want to have a way to live. And the Earth wants us to do this. I believe. Don't you believe that, Earthaluya? I think the Earth wants to live, but the Earth is Now in the sixth extinction, 29 months of record heat. It is happening now. The Earth is doing what she must do to survive. But I think the Earth is. Is calling out to us to join up in some way. But we have to. We have to be sensitive to what she's saying. Let's ask the Earth to give us the signal. Let's be with the Earth. Let's live with the Earth. Let's do radical things we couldn't have expected ourselves to do. Now is the time to be radical Americans again. We've done it before. We could do it now. Somebody give me an Earthalujah. Earthalujah Earthalujah Earthalujah Earthalujah Earthalujah Earthalujah Earthalujah. Urza Loujah Urza. Amen.

Luke Burbank (34:37)

A word from Reverend Billy. Reverend, would you come over and take a seat? We also want to welcome to the show the co founder of the Church of Stop Shopping. Please welcome Savitri D to Livewire. Savitri D. Thank you for being here.

Savitri D (34:58)

Hey, thanks so much for having us.

Luke Burbank (35:00)

I cannot tell you how much joy I got from reading your Wikipedia page about the church and about Reverend Billy. The Reverend Billy character debuted on the sidewalk at Times Square in 1998 outside the Disney Store where he proclaimed Mickey Mouse to be the Antichrist. He was arrested multiple times outside the Disney Store when he duct taped Mickey Mouse to a cross. How many times together, how many times have both of you been arrested and how many times in front of the Disney Store specifically?

Savitri D (35:30)

Well, it's easy to lose track, to be honest with you, but I think probably accumulative. Maybe a hundred times, I wouldn't say at the Disney Store. And, you know, there's various stages of arrest. There's, you know, being held, there's being held in the car, there's being taken to the precinct, there's going downtown to the tombs, there's being held overnight, there's being held over two nights. I mean, there's a lot of versions of being arrested, but being that you've.

Luke Burbank (36:00)

Both been involved in so much social action and so many of these things, is there a point where, like, it adds up and there you might get some serious time over it, or they generally see it for what it is, which is political speech and, you know, performance art and a spiritual practice for you?

Savitri D (36:17)

Well, we have the First Amendment protecting us.

Luke Burbank (36:19)

Well, we used to sort of.

Reverend Billy (36:20)

It's still there.

Sponsor/Announcer (36:21)

It's still there.

Savitri D (36:22)

Yeah. 45 words. 45 words. All those freedoms except Property.

Reverend Billy (36:29)

Congress shall make no law respecting an.

Savitri D (36:32)

Establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble.

Reverend Billy (36:46)

And petition the government for redress of grievances.

Savitri D (36:51)

There you go. I mean, I would just say, you know, if we can take that chance, we take those risks. You know, we're obviously in a very privileged situation, sort of, you know, the way we look, the lives we lead. So we're willing to take that chance. And yes, sometimes there are, you know, greater charges in front of us. And luckily, we live in New York City and are surrounded by incredible attorneys who are want to support activists. And I think. Thank you, all the attorneys in the world.

Luke Burbank (37:26)

Thank you.

Reverend Billy (37:27)

Have some here tonight.

Luke Burbank (37:28)

It's a public radio show. It's mostly attorneys.

Savitri D (37:30)

Yeah, I see you.

Luke Burbank (37:34)

What do you see? The, you know, it seems like it's in the name the Church of Stop Shopping, but I get the sense in talking to you backstage and in just kind of, you know, studying your work a little more, this is more encompassing than just that, just stopping consumerism. What do you see this movement is being about for you?

Savitri D (37:50)

Consumerism is a broad term that encompasses many things, you know, including militarism, including the way we, you know, the way we support our shopping with violence overseas. And I think we just want to drive a little wedge in between people and their shopping, just get people to stop for a second. And of course, we want to hold corporations accountable because it's not just about our personal perfection. Right. It's not like, if I'm a very good person, everything will be fine. We know that's not true. Right. We have to hold leaders accountable. We have to hold corporations accountable.

Reverend Billy (38:27)

One of the distortions of the First Amendment is Citizens United. The saturation advertising, the unlimited funds going to preferred corrupted candidates. They say that 10,000 advertising events take place to the average New Yorker who has a computer.

Luke Burbank (38:48)

We're talking to the Reverend Billy and Savitri D from the Church of Stop Shopping here on Livewire this week. There's a pretty incredible photo of you online. Reverend Billy, you're in the sort of ATM vestibule of a Bank of America where you were casting out the demons of bad loans and toxic assets. How did that go? And did security ask you to leave pretty quickly?

Reverend Billy (39:12)

Well, security oftentimes they kind of smile and sort of get it right, because.

Luke Burbank (39:18)

They'Re probably not making a living wage themselves.

Reverend Billy (39:21)

That's right. And some of the tellers at JPMorgan Chase are on food stamps, whereas Jamie Dimon makes $100,000 a day. So you've got real disparity there. Classes and races and all over the place. We find people often are really nervous and they're laughing and they don't know why. Some people cry. One lady thought we were robbing the bank, not singing a song about the golden toad and how it went extinct from climate change and she called the police and we got arrested that time.

Savitri D (40:00)

But, you know, we sing. So the singing goes a long way towards you know, smoothing out the rough edges in those settings.

Luke Burbank (40:07)

Yeah.

Reverend Billy (40:08)

Have we mentioned that we have a 30 voice choir?

Luke Burbank (40:10)

Yes, I know. And a lot of the videos that people want to check out, the work of the church the choir is in, you know, is in attendance. And it's really kind of a beautiful sort of surreal thing, I guess. Do you think about it as performance art? Do you think about it as political action? How do you think about what you're doing?

Reverend Billy (40:28)

We know we're doing well when for the first 20 or 30 minutes of one of our services, people don't know what we are.

Savitri D (40:40)

Yeah, we call it radical instability. You know, it's a kind of wildness. And we try to charge that wildness. That's our job. Yeah. So performance art is a way to get out of a situation. Though we do pull that card sometimes, like it's just an art project.

Elena Passarello (40:56)

What does that cause in people when they are radically destable?

Savitri D (41:00)

Well, in a consumerized society, it opens the way for change, for transformation, because they don't know what it is. Right. So in a culture in which everything is given to you as exactly as it is in a category at a price, in the right aisle with the other sweaters, et cetera, radical instability disrupts. And then suddenly, it's as if the milk is suddenly like not in the refrigerator, you know?

Eric Thomas (41:30)

Yeah, totally.

Luke Burbank (41:32)

How do you live your lives? You know, you've made this sort of the point of your life. How do you then live your lives? Maybe differently than sort of a lot of typical Americans. Like, what does this look like for you and your actual lived experience?

Savitri D (41:44)

Well, don't look at my socks too closely. No, I'm just kidding.

Reverend Billy (41:48)

My socks don't match.

Savitri D (41:49)

You know, we're all compromised. Like, you know, I just want to say, like, we're all living in this impossible situation, all of us. And so we wake up with that burden and that confusion every day, all of us trying to figure out how to be good people in this situation. And it's hard right it's hard for all of us. I would just say, like, I just try to, you know, take my values and integrate them with action. Right. And then that feels like a good day to me. That's how it feels to me. Right. And that's what activism is. That's all being an activist is.

Johannes or Conrad or George (Broody Brothers) (42:20)

Right.

Savitri D (42:21)

It's integrating your values and your actions. And sometimes I fail for like, you know, 53 weeks in a row.

Luke Burbank (42:30)

You really sort of were public enemy number one at Starbucks for a good decade or so, if I understand it right. There was a. You would do a lot of, you know, events at Starbucks. And there was apparently a laminated card in the Starbucks in New York. What to do if Reverend Billy comes into your Starbucks.

Savitri D (42:51)

Still so funny.

Johannes or Conrad or George (Broody Brothers) (42:52)

Yes.

Reverend Billy (42:53)

That was issued from the Seattle head headquarters to the managers. And after that, when I guess it just didn't go well for them in terms of our performances inside their cafes, they sent us a letter banning me from all the Starbucks in the world.

Savitri D (43:14)

You know, but the problem was, at the same time we had a court case in Los Angeles and we figured out we couldn't actually get to the courthouse without, you know, getting within 250 yards of a Starbucks. So the, actually the only way to get to the courthouse was a hot air balloon and then a canoe down the LA river. And we just couldn't figure out how to do it.

Luke Burbank (43:37)

Yeah, well, obviously you and the other folks in the Church of Stop Shopping have made this really kind of your life's mission and something that's so central to your identity. I think for a lot of people it's overwhelming to try to go from being a person who's caught very much in the loop of consumerism and of living this life the way that it's kind of presented to us in the kind of, like you said, monoculture. What is something that somebody could do that would be like one thing that would help them move more towards a more sort of aware way of being in the world?

Reverend Billy (44:10)

Go outside, go to the earth.

Eric Thomas (44:13)

Go to the earth.

Reverend Billy (44:16)

Go to your favorite ecosystem. Down by the shore, down on the river, up on Mount Hood. Wherever you have to go, just go there. Be there with the earth and slow.

Savitri D (44:25)

Down or look into the eyes of your lover. Turn away from the advertising, turn away from the screens that are like just overwhelming you. What is overwhelming? You ask yourself a simple question. You know, anxiety. And this anxiety is promoted. You know, it's really a way of life now, right? It separates us from our wisdom, it separates us from the things we already know the things that are in our body from our realities and our relationships. So I would just say, like, do the thing that grounds you in life with another person, with the earth, and let the earth guide you. Because it's pretty basic at this point, right? It's pretty basic. I mean, it's on all of us, right? It's not going to change without us. We have to do the work ourselves.

Luke Burbank (45:13)

Yeah. I think that gives Earthaluya Savitra D and Rev. Billy from the Church of Stop Shopping. Thank you so much for coming on Livewire. Appreciate you. That was the Reverend Billy and Savitri D recorded live at Revolution hall in Portland. You can catch Reverend Billy and Savitri on their podcast Earthriot Radio, or online@revbilly.com or maybe just, you know, bursting into a Starbucks to make good trouble somewhere near you. You're listening to Livewire Radio. We've got to take a very quick break, but don't go anywhere. When we come back, we're going to talk to the broody brothers about their unlikely musical rise. Keep it tuned right here. More Livewire in a moment.

Sponsor/Announcer (46:02)

Moment.

Luke Burbank (46:12)

Hey, it's your friend Luke reminding you, as if you didn't already know, that Livewire has sort of always been a show that does not really work out on paper. The math doesn't totally math, as they say. We're a weekly national broadcast. We do dozens of live events that are produced on a budget that is mostly held together by, like, duct tape and determination, I guess. So, as you have probably already heard, things are really tough out here in public radio, especially for shows like Livewire. Government arts fundings have been slashed. There are a lot of stations that can no longer pay for the show, and ticket sales and sponsorships are down across the entire industry. These are all the ways that we've been able to kind of balance our books over the years, and those are going away. We have somehow survived for two decades, basically by being too stubborn to quit. And we are not going to quit anytime soon. But we cannot do this alone. If you are hearing my voice right now, we need you to join us to make this radio show and this experience happen. Look, maybe you discovered a musician on Livewire that you weren't hearing on, like, the top 40 radio. Maybe you found, like, your next favorite book or author. Maybe you ugly laughed alone in your car or ugly cried. No judgment. Look, if this show has been there for you in any way, shape or form, we are asking you right now to help us build a version of Livewire. That can't be defunded, can't be canceled, and can't disappear because budgets get tight, which is what we're in danger of having happen now. Right now, if you can join our fully charged campaign@livewireradio.org fullycharged, you will help us keep the lights on and keep the weird, wonderful conversations that Livewire is known for flowing. So thank you so much for stepping up and doing your part to keep Livewire going. We can't do this without you. Welcome back to Livewire. Okay, before we get to this week's musical performance from the broody brothers, a little preview of next week week's show. We're gonna be adventuring around. We're gonna talk to the poet and author Morgan Parker about her debut collection of essays, you get what you pay for. It has got all kinds of insights into her life and helpful tips. Like, if you're in Manhattan and you just went to therapy and now you need to find the best store to cry in, that's covered in the book. And then we're gonna head actually to one of my very favorite places in Portland, Oregon. It's called the store Sports Bra Sports bar, where we recorded a Livewire pop up. We talked to professional soccer player turned writer Georgia Kloep. Phil. And then lastly, but definitely not leastly, we're gonna hear some music from Brazilian sensation Joshua, who's gonna play us a tune that will have you dancing or whatever that looks like for you. Anyway, do not miss any of next week's episode of Livewire. It's gonna be great. In the meantime, our musical guests this week, they're a dynamic Americana band hailing from Seattle, Washington, often recognized as the city's favorite buskers and street poets. They're known for their raucous performances and distinctive old world soul. Kind of stands out in this world of modern music. They are comprised of three brothers, Johannes, Conrad, and George. This is the Brudy Brothers, recorded live at the Eilee Ball Nordstrom Recital hall at Benaroya hall back in December. Hello, Johannes, Conrad and George, how's it going?

Johannes or Conrad or George (Broody Brothers) (49:55)

Thanks for having us. And thanks for introducing us as brothers. So many people ask us after shows, are you actually brothers? You know, they say Johannes and I, we look like Mormon missionaries and he looks like the guy we're trying to convert.

Luke Burbank (50:14)

We have to talk a little bit about this song, me More Cowboy Than youn, which you were performing at the Sunset Tavern here in Seattle, an amazing venue, by the way, in Ballard. And a clip went up on TikTok and It, you know, became hugely viral and popular. And what I noticed is you all seem like peace loving Northwest men. And the comment section below that TikTok video is a war zone of people debating who is and is not country. Who's fake country like? I wouldn't imagine that's what you're trying to touch off, but what is that like for you to have this song that's such a hit, that has so many people kind of like mixing it up over this question of country ness?

Johannes or Conrad or George (Broody Brothers) (50:58)

Well, I think any controversy sparks conversation, and then the AI algorithm just thinks, oh, people like it. So the more controversy, the more gigs we get to play. We were honestly right when this song came out. We had been kicked out of the Ballard Market Farmers market for driving through in a pedicab too many times. Chariot, as they called it. They called it a chariot.

Luke Burbank (51:26)

I have never heard of anyone being kicked out of the Ballard Market.

Johannes or Conrad or George (Broody Brothers) (51:31)

It's true. They had a vendetta against us.

Luke Burbank (51:34)

And is it true that you initially weren't even considering recording this song or didn't think too much of it?

Johannes or Conrad or George (Broody Brothers) (51:39)

Yeah, we just. Well, it's such a mean song, and it's so pointed and so well written, might I add.

Luke Burbank (51:52)

So is that the song that we're gonna hear now?

Johannes or Conrad or George (Broody Brothers) (51:54)

No.

Luke Burbank (51:55)

Okay.

Johannes or Conrad or George (Broody Brothers) (51:58)

We'Re going to play Wagon Wheel.

Luke Burbank (51:59)

Yeah.

Johannes or Conrad or George (Broody Brothers) (52:01)

Can you. Can somebody cut his mic?

Luke Burbank (52:03)

Yeah. All right. This is the broody brothers here on Livewire.

Johannes or Conrad or George (Broody Brothers) (52:33)

Friday night. Boys and girls I see Drunk and running around like ants they all just want to be heard and seen Speaking their minds and taking their stance Some are real happy some are mean Some are just looking for quick romance they want to be part of the popular scene so they dress the part and they take their chance the boys and girls are acting real strange Pretending they're cowboys and welders and such Buying old work gear from the exchange but you can tell their hands don't do very much Saying me, me, me, me, me more cowboy than you I swear that I'm working class through and through.

Sponsor/Announcer (53:43)

Saying.

Johannes or Conrad or George (Broody Brothers) (53:44)

Me, me, me more cowboy than you everyone's glued to their flickering screen Faces illuminated in the dark Their pockets are full and their cars are clean.

Luke Burbank (54:03)

Their.

Johannes or Conrad or George (Broody Brothers) (54:04)

Biggest worry is where they should park so if you see cowboy hats and boots well, chances are it's on daddy's dime they're all in the bathroom snorting their toot thank you, Daddy Having a mighty expensive time Saying me, me, me, me, me more cowboy than you.

Reverend Billy (54:34)

I.

Johannes or Conrad or George (Broody Brothers) (54:35)

Swear that I'm working class through and.

Luke Burbank (54:39)

Through.

Johannes or Conrad or George (Broody Brothers) (54:42)

Saying me, me, me more cowboy than you. You can rent me for turkey season saying me, me, me, me me more cowboy than you. I swear that I'm working class through and through saying me, me, me.

Luke Burbank (55:56)

That right there was the Broody Brothers recorded live at Benaroya hall in Seattle. You can check out their music and find their tour schedule and other info@brudybrothers.com that's B R U D I brothers.com all right, that's gonna do it for this week's episode of Livewire, a huge thanks to our guest. Thanks Reverend Billy and Savitri D from the Church of Stop Shopping, plus our Eric Thomas and the Broody Brothers.

Elena Passarello (56:24)

Lara Haddon is our executive producer, Heather D. Michel is our executive director, and our producer and editor is Melanie Savchenko. Eben Hoffer is our technical director, and Trey Hester is our assistant editor.

Luke Burbank (56:35)

Valentine Keck is our operations manager, and Ashley park is our marketing manager. Our house sound is by Dee Neil Blake and Marcus Ben Amadi. Our house band is Sam Pinkerton, Eyal Aldez, Ethan Fox Tucker, and A. Walker Spring, who also composes our music. This show was mixed by Eben Hoffer and Trey Hester.

Elena Passarello (56:53)

Additional funding provided by the Marie Lambrum Charitable Foundation. Livewire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week we'd like to thank members David and Melody Bell of Beaverton, Oregon.

Luke Burbank (57:05)

For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast, head ON over to livewireradio.org I'm Luke Burbank. For Elena Passarello and the whole Livewire team, thank you for listening and we will see you next week. Dear Livewire, when we first met, I was really shy. I had no idea we'd spend so much time together or that you'd be one to fill my heart with joy and make me want to be a better person. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know you were here. I was busy reading a review from one of our many, many rapturously smitten listeners. Oh, wait. Actually, no. Sorry. This is from Elena. Anyway, the point is, it would be really helpful if you wanted to leave us a review. Feel free to say really nice things, things about us and we'll even read them now and then on the show so you might hear your review of Livewire read on the program itself. Reviews help other people hear about the show, and then we can keep doing this for a long, long time because we love having this job. Thank you so much. If you've left a review and if you're about to leave a review, you can go ahead and do it right. Where you get the podcast.

Savitri D (58:32)

From prx.