Rachel Khong, Danez Smith, and Danielia Cotton

Summary

Live Wire with Luke Burbank – Episode Featuring Rachel Khong, Danez Smith, and Danelia Cotton

Release Date: February 14, 2025

Overview

In this captivating episode of "Live Wire with Luke Burbank," host Luke Burbank engages with a trio of remarkable guests: acclaimed writer Rachel Khong, celebrated poet Danez Smith, and the talented singer-songwriter Danelia Cotton. The conversation weaves through themes of literature, poetry, music, cultural identity, and personal growth, offering listeners a rich tapestry of insights and heartfelt discussions.

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1. Best News of the Week

Danez Smith kicks off the episode with a heartwarming story:

• [03:09] Danez Smith: "They did a million-dollar water restoration for free. Do you want to know who they were?"

Smith recounts how eight Eurasian beavers restored water areas in the Birdie Nature Park in the Czech Republic, initially stalling due to permit issues. These industrious beavers, known as the "engineers of the animal kingdom," not only completed the restoration but also enhanced the ecosystem by slowing water movement, deepening habitats, and promoting biodiversity.

Luke Burbank adds another inspiring tale:

• [05:26] Luke Burbank: "David Fisher, a Guinness World Record-holding jump rope expert, saved a teenager from a frozen river using his unique skills."

Fisher's quick thinking and expertise with jump ropes enabled him to rescue a stranded teenager, earning both him and his son Felix the Life Saving Citizen Award from Westfield, Indiana.

---

2. Interview with Rachel Khong: "Real Americans"

Rachel Khong joins the conversation to discuss her highly anticipated novel, Real Americans, recognized by the New York Times as one of the year's most awaited books.

Characters and Structure:

• [09:31] Rachel Khong: "This book features three members of the same Chinese American family, presented out of order. We start with Lily in 1999-2000, followed by her son Nick on a remote Washington island, and finally, Mei, Lily's mother who fled Mao's China."

The novel navigates complex family dynamics, secrets, and the intersections of different generations and cultures.

Themes of Luck and Expectations:

• [10:25] Khong: "I think poems are little vehicles of transformation and humanness. And what do we want out of an argument besides transformation?"

The discussion delves into the pressure of parental expectations within immigrant families, as Khong reflects on her own upbringing:

• [11:09] Khong: "When I was growing up, my parents always said to me, we sacrificed so much for you to be here. I felt the responsibility to be healthier, happier, taller, and I didn't."

Research and Inspiration:

• [15:22] Khong: "I wrote a lot of this book during the pandemic, wanting to be in other places and times. Research happened alongside writing, including visiting Long Island's Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory."

She emphasizes the importance of understanding historical contexts and personal narratives within broader societal frameworks.

Parental Understanding and Humility:

• [20:36] Khong: "The book is very much about the struggle for anyone in a family to understand each other. Parents try their best, but it's not necessarily what the child needs."

Khong advocates for humility, acknowledging the limits of what parents and individuals can truly understand about one another.

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3. Interview with Danez Smith: "Bluff"

Danez Smith discusses their latest poetry collection, Bluff, which explores the tension between art and action amidst societal injustices.

Purpose of Poetry:

• [27:08] Smith: "What is the purpose of art? Poetry can't be enough. It is one tool to put energy into people so that we can do something about this world."

Smith emphasizes that while poetry alone cannot solve issues, it plays a crucial role in inspiring and mobilizing change.

Featured Poems:

1. Anti Poetica:

   • [30:35] Smith: “There is no poem greater than feeding someone. There is no poem wiser than kindness... Poems only live south of south.”

   This poem sets the tone by outlining what poetry strives to achieve beyond traditional forms.

2. Ars Poetica:

   • [39:12] Smith: “Here in these lines, in these rooms, I add my blues and my gospels to the record of now. I offer my scratch gold to the blueprint of possible... which means there is still poetry.”

   Serving as a counterpart to Anti Poetica, this poem reinforces poetry's enduring presence and potential for change.

Intersection of Personal and Collective History:

• [37:24] Smith: "There's a thin line between telling your personal story and the history of your people. Sometimes, sharing one means sharing the other."

Smith reflects on the challenges of representing both individual and collective experiences without overshadowing either.

Engagement with Critics and Supporters:

• [35:11] Smith: "I don't have to worry about who's looking at it. It's art. I need to ensure that my beloved audience feels the power in the work."

Highlighting the importance of prioritizing the intended audience's reception over external interpretations.

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4. Interview with Danelia Cotton: "Charlie's Pride"

Danelia Cotton presents her latest EP, Charlie's Pride, a tribute to Charley Pride, the first Black American inducted into the Country Music Hall of Fame.

Inspiration and Heritage:

• [43:43] Cotton: "When I moved to the city, I couldn't not be me... authentically Danelia no matter where I am."

Drawing from her upbringing in Hopewell, New Jersey, Cotton blends traditional country influences with her unique indie rock style to honor pioneers like Charley Pride.

Respecting Genre Roots:

• [45:32] Cotton: "If you go into a genre, you have to tip your hat somewhat to what it is. You can't recreate it without respect."

Cotton emphasizes the importance of honoring the foundational elements of country music while infusing it with personal flair.

Live Performance: "Bring Out the Country and Me"

Cotton performs her original song, "Bring Out the Country and Me," which encapsulates her journey and the melding of her cultural identity with country music aesthetics.

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5. Listener Interaction: "Shock to Your Younger Self"

The episode features a light-hearted segment where Luke invites listeners to share aspects of their adult lives that would surprise their younger selves.

Notable Responses:

• [23:42] AJ: "I own a duster, and I actually use the duster."
• [23:52] Sarah: "I appreciate naps, not as a punishment, but as a precious gift."
• [25:30] Jesse: "I recently spent $2,000 on a garage door."

Humorous Exchanges:

• [24:14] Luke Burbank: "Where is this dust going?"
• [24:25] Smith: "They got to vacuum it afterwards, my dude."

This segment adds a relatable and entertaining dimension to the episode, fostering a sense of community among listeners.

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6. Closing Remarks

Luke Burbank wraps up the episode by thanking guests Rachel Khong, Danez Smith, and Danelia Cotton for their contributions. He also previews future episodes, including upcoming interviews with Emily Nussbaum and Pink Martini, celebrating their 30th anniversary.

The episode concludes with acknowledgments to the production team, sponsors, and supporters, highlighting the collaborative effort behind "Live Wire."

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Notable Quotes:

• [02:03] Rachel Khong: "What do we want out of an argument besides transformation?"
• [21:11] Khong: "There is no takeaway. That's not why I write novels."
• [29:25] Smith: "Poems are little vehicles of transformation and humanness."
• [32:20] Smith: "Let poetry be a tool to put energy into people so that we can do something about this world."

---

Conclusion

This episode of "Live Wire with Luke Burbank" offers a profound exploration of storytelling, poetry, and music as mediums for personal and societal transformation. Through insightful dialogues with Rachel Khong, Danez Smith, and Danelia Cotton, listeners are invited to reflect on the complexities of cultural identity, the power of art, and the enduring human spirit.

Transcript

[Luke Burbank]

Hey there. Welcome to Livewire. I'm your host, Luke Burbank. This week on the show, we are gonna be talking to the writer Rachel Kong as part of the Portland Book Festival, talking about her latest novel. It's called Real Americans. It was one of the most anticipated books of the year by the New York Times. It tells the story of a woman and her mother and a big family secret. It's a real page turner. We're also gonna talk to the poet Danez Smith about their latest book Bluff. Danez is also gonna read one of their, which is always a highlight here on Livewire. Then we've got some incredible music coming your way from singer songwriter Danelia Cotton, who has a new record out honoring Charley Pride, the first black country superstar, and made quite the impression on the culture. And Danelia, you are not gonna wanna miss this song. In fact, you don't wanna miss any of this week's episode of Livewire because it's gonna be really good. So stick around it. Start. The world we live in isn't perfect.

[Elena Passarello]

This is all wrong.

[Luke Burbank]

I say put mental health first, but it doesn't get any better on its own. I stand before you as a concerned citizen. That's why we talk to activists about.

[Rachel Kong]

How they do what they do and.

[Luke Burbank]

What inspires them to keep going. Because we're all about change. Listen to stories that give us all hope on All About Change. Wherever you get your podcasts, Livewire is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Danez Smith]

From prx, it's Live Wire this week. Poet Dennis Smith.

[Rachel Kong]

I think poems are little vehicles of transformation and humanness. And what do we want out of an argument besides transformation?

[Danez Smith]

Author Rachel Kong.

[Danelia Cotton]

I was really interested in the stories China tells about itself, but also the stories that America tells about itself and the stories that that really shape all of our lives as Americans.

[Danez Smith]

With music from Danelia Cotton and our fabulous house band, I'm your announcer, Elena Passarello. And now the host of Livewire, Luke Burbank.

[Luke Burbank]

Hey, thank you so much, Elena Passarello. Thanks to everybody tuning in from all over the country. We have got an absolutely spectacular episode of Livewire dialed up for you this week. Before we get going, though, we have to start like we always do, with the best news we've heard. All week. This is our little reminder at the top of the show that despite what you may have heard, there's good news happening in the world. You just gotta. Sometimes you gotta look hard. Yeah, but we found some. Alayna, what's the best news you heard all week?

[Danez Smith]

I found something pretty amazing. So we have to go to the Czech Republic for this story. To the Birdie Nature park, which is this kind of lovely natural space in Bohemia, as it's known. And they had some water areas that needed restoration. They've actually been planning for this restoration for like seven or eight years. They raised over a million dollars to get it done. But then of course, the project stalled because they were permit issues. Nothing was happening. But guess what? The restoration is complete and it was done by, I would say, the lowest bidder of workers. They did it for free.

[Luke Burbank]

What?

[Danez Smith]

They did a million dollar water restoration for free. Do you want to know who they were?

[Luke Burbank]

Yes.

[Danez Smith]

They were eight Eurasian beavers. You know, people call beavers the engineers of the animal kingdom. They make entire ecosystems. They can build dams that are up to, you know, like seven football fields long that can be seen from space. There's a dam in Canada that has done this.

[Luke Burbank]

And they're these really complicated ecosystems, right, that they end up by slowing down the movement of the water. All this other stuff happens. I mean, it's kind of remarkable.

[Danez Smith]

Yeah, they make the water deeper, which is good for them. Right. It helps them evade predators, helps them create cold storage for their beaver lodges. And that in turn welcomes a ton of different species. It's also really good for cleaning, keeping things clean, keeping pollutants out, and fire prevention. They're amazing. And also apparently they work really cheap.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, throw em a couple of poplars.

[Danez Smith]

They were introduced by back into the Birdie Nature park because they were hunted almost to extinction a hundred years ago. But they were introduced back to the park in 2020. So when plans to do this restoration had already taken place, and it probably took them a few weeks to do it, it wasn't like an overnight thing, but they're already noticing the differences all throughout the water system. And the director of the Czech Nature and Landscape Protection Agency summed it up best when he said, well, I guess beavers just always know best.

[Luke Burbank]

Love it. The best news that I saw this week comes from Westfield, Indiana, where the lakes and the rivers can get pretty frozen and pretty covered in ice, but it can still be pretty dangerous, which is exactly what happened not that long ago when a guy named David Fisher, his son Felix, who's In college at Ball State in Muncie, is going out to the car to get something and heard a commotion out on this river that kind of runs right behind their home. And he saw basically that somebody's dog had gotten into this icy river and was sort of flailing about and that this teenager had gone in after his dog. And this is what happens a lot with these kinds of things. The dog got its way out of the river. The teenager was now stuck in the river, you know, underwater and getting very, very cold very, very quickly. So Felix runs back, yells for his dad. David says, get out here. David immediately grabs two long ropes out of his garage and sprints down to the river. Now, why did he have these long ropes, Elena? Because he is a Guinness World record holding jump rope expert. He is a master in the art and science of jumping rope. He's been doing it as his profession for over 30 years. He's jump roped in front of 10 million people, including Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and at one point, Boris Yeltsin, of all people. He has the Guinness world record for most jumps while sitting on his backside, which Guinness describes as rump jumps. So this is like the perfect person. He grabs his two extra long double dutch jump ropes and he like, gives one to Felix, who's on the shore and like ties it off. And then he gets out there in the water and then he's like kind of low on the ice. He's spreading out his weight.

[Danez Smith]

He's like rump jump level, right?

[Luke Burbank]

Exactly. There's a photo of David Fisher establishing the rump jump record. And he's in a position that looks like it would be pretty ideal if you were trying to not break through the ice. Like this guy has been preparing. He's been preparing his whole life for this moment. So he gets out there on the ice and he throws the other double dutch jump rope to the kid who is able to grab onto it. And eventually, after a couple of false starts, they eventually get the kid out of the water. He is unharmed. The dog is okay as well. Everyone is all right. Thanks to David Fisher and his love of jump rope in Westfield, Indiana. By the way, Felix and David both received the life saving citizen award from the town of Westfield, Indiana. Well, they should have rump jumps and the citizen life saving award. Those are the two things now that David Fisher is going to be known for. And that's the best news I heard all week. All right, let's get our first guest on over her debut novel, Goodbye Vitamin Took the World by storm back in 2018 when it was named a best book of the year by npr, by Oprah's Magazine, by Virginia Vogue and Esquire. And this probably explains why her latest book, which is called Real Americans, was named one of the most anticipated books of the year by the New York Times. And they were right. The LA Times says it's an irresistible puzzle of a novel. So let's start putting those pieces together. Rachel Kong joined us as part of the Portland Book Festival at the Patricia Research center for the Arts in Beaverton, Oregon to talk about the book. Take a listen.

[Danelia Cotton]

Hi everyone.

[Luke Burbank]

Hello, Rachel. Welcome to livewire.

[Danelia Cotton]

Thank you.

[Luke Burbank]

Congratulations on the book.

[Danelia Cotton]

Thank you so much.

[Luke Burbank]

Let's talk about the sort of three. This book is broken up into three sections. There's kind of three main characters. There's Lily, there's her son Nick, and then there's her mother, May kind of lay out who these folks are and what's going on for them in the book.

[Danelia Cotton]

Sure. So this book features, I guess, three members of the same Chinese American family and it's sort of presented out of order. We start with Lily, who is a 20 something broke just out of college student when we meet her in the year 1999, 2000. And then the second section is narrated by her son Nick, and he's living on this sort of isolated island in Washington. He doesn't know who his father is and he's sort of struggling to figure out who he is. And the last action is narrated by Mei, who is actually Lily's mother, and she has fled from Mao's China and sort of carved out a life for herself in America as this really ambitious scientist. And it's about where their stories intersect, the betrayals, the secrets that happen between these characters.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. Luck seems to be a theme or the question of sort of if you can make your luck or if luck happens to you. I think May has, because she's a scientist, has like engineered an entire lawn of four leaf clovers for Lily, who thinks that this is just what people's lawn is, like an attempt to sort of push luck.

[Danelia Cotton]

Yeah, I think about that all the time. Like, why is a four leaf clover considered lucky? It's because it's rare. Right. And I think sometimes we think of rare things as lucky things, but other times we think of rare things and we think, oh, that's bad, you know, And I think that's a question that is really interesting to me, like what do we value and why do we value it? It's so fascinating.

[Luke Burbank]

Lily and Mae have a Pretty complicated relationship for one reason that I won't mention as a, you know, spoiler, but. But also because of her expectations. Mei's expectations for Lily, which is something that's often described in Chinese American families. I'm curious, for you, growing up, were there expectations around your life? And where did Ryder fit into that?

[Danelia Cotton]

When I was growing up, my parents always said to me, we sacrificed so much for you to be here. They came to America when I was two years old. They did sacrifice a lot for us to be here and to try to have a better life. But I felt this responsibility to be healthier, happier, taller, and I didn't. I'm not taller than my mom, actually. I'm two inches shorter, unfortunately.

[Luke Burbank]

Very disappointing.

[Danez Smith]

Oh, no.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah.

[Danelia Cotton]

It's one of the main disappointments, I think. But I think that statement is so much pressure. It's so much to live under as a child. And even now, you know, you have this feeling that you need to live. Or I should say, I had this feeling that I needed to live another life because there had been sacrifices made on my behalf. And I think I wrote this book out of just a feeling that. I don't know. I wonder who I would have been if I hadn't necessarily had that hanging over me, you know, and writer, definitely, for an immigrant family is not something that is necessarily on the table. When I was growing up, my. I would say to my parents, I want to be a writer. And they would say, oh, you want to be a journalist? Because journalists, at least that's a job, you know, you could get a paycheck from that, a pretty regular paycheck. And novelist was just, like, out of. You know, it was out of the question. Nobody was a novelist that we knew of, you know, so they've gotten used to the idea, and now they understand what I'm up to.

[Luke Burbank]

Right? I mean, to see this book, like, if they're walking past a Hudson News, and it's like, gotta be pretty cool for them to see that this dream of yours has become such a real thing.

[Danelia Cotton]

It is really cool. And I think that lately I've been thinking about the reason I'm a writer at all. I think it does have to do with their decision to come here to America. Right. And to bring me to public libraries. When I was growing up, I was just this very lonely, shy kid, and libraries and books were my best friends. And so my parents took me to the library. They sort of made me a writer. So it's truly their fault.

[Luke Burbank]

This is Livewire Radio from PRX we are talking to the writer Rachel Kong about her newest novel, Real Americans. We have to take a very quick break, but don't go anywhere. When we come back, Rachel is going to talk about the ongoing struggle of parents trying to understand which if you have a kid, you know, is an ongoing struggle, especially when there are cultural and generational differences. Stay with us much more livewire. Just ahead, special thanks to our sponsor, Up Up Books, a Portland bookshop specializing in diverse authors, local writers and independent presses. They're located across from Revolution hall in the Buckman neighborhood. And and they offer a space for book clubs, workshops and events. Check out their website and grab a [e-mail] welcome back to LiveWire. I'm your host Luke Burbank, here with Elena Passarello. We are listening back to a conversation we recorded with the author Rachel Kong about her novel Real Americans. Let's pick that conversation back up now. We recorded this as part of the Portland Book Festival live at the Patricia Research center for the Arts in Beaverton, Oregon. I'm wondering what the research was like for this book because it really spans a bunch of time, eras and geography. It's, you know, it's rural China. It's New York at Y2K. It's a remote island in the Pacific Northwest. It's Florida.

[Danelia Cotton]

Yeah. I did actually live in Florida for three years during grad school. So that was sort of where the Florida stuff came from. You know, I wrote a lot of this book during the pandemic, and I just wanted to be in other places and in other times. And so it was really fun to get to sort of. Yeah. To pretend to be in all these places. And the research, you know, it wasn't that I just researched everything in the beginning and then wrote the book. The research was happening alongside the writing of the book itself. And some of it was actually visiting the places once I could, once the pandemic was quote, unquote, over. But it was just a lot of reading books, listening to articles, bookmarking everything that I could. And, you know, so there's a laboratory in this book. It's on Long Island. In my mind, I was imagining Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory, which actually was the site of a lot of eugenics research in the early 1900s. And I was fascinated by that. And I wrote that sort of into the book, just like imagining myself there and deep into writing this book, Cold Spring harbor actually set up this artist residency and I applied to it and I went, oh, my gosh. So in the final stretches of working on this book, I got to go to Long island, got to root around these archives and filled in even more details. Got to visit the labs of scientists who were so generous, but it felt like it was faded, almost like I had imagined myself there. And then I really got to be there.

[Danez Smith]

Did I see that you also got first person testimonials of, like, a historical time that you weren't present for, like, oral history stuff.

[Danelia Cotton]

There are oral histories online of survivors of the Cultural Revolution. And so that's what I turned to for some of those details of that period, which I. Yeah, I didn't live through. I have no idea what it was actually like to be there.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, it feels extremely rooted. Like, there's this moment where I think there's this sort of propaganda thing around Mao swimming in the river in the Yangtze or something, and everyone's supposed to be really excited that he's so vigorous. And Mei is like, I don't know about this. Yeah, is that a thing that really happened? Did you find a photo of Mao swimming in a river?

[Danelia Cotton]

It's a classic, famous photo. He's swimming in the river. He's purported to have swum a great distance, but you just see him, obviously, like, it's a black and white image of him, his head bobbing in the water and. Yeah, I mean, I think I was so fascinated by Chinese propaganda and the stories that China likes to tell in order to sort of, you know, create its image of itself. And I was really interested in the stories China tells about itself, but also the stories that America tells about itself and the stories that really shape all of our lives as Americans.

[Luke Burbank]

In reading the book, because of the way that it has these three characters, Mae, her daughter, and then her grandson, and what they're all going through, what I was struck by was this notion, I think a lot of us have, probably particularly a lot of white Americans have, that the first wave of immigrants, like a first generation group, where maybe there's a challenge with the language, maybe there's a lot of poverty in order to make this dream happen. Then you have the second generation. It's better for them. You have the third generation, and then it's fine. And what this book tells me is it's really never exactly fine for everybody. I mean, there's no point at which it's like, okay, now it's free and easy.

[Danelia Cotton]

Yeah. I mean, I guess I wonder, is it free and easy for anybody?

[Danez Smith]

But it's also so pendular. Like, culture aside, like, you see one generation in your book raising Their children in a reaction to how they grew up. And then when that child grows up and has a kid, the pendulum swings in a different direction, and they raise their child in that way. And you see that child making these vows and making these decisions. So it feels like that's another thing that's never going to be. Never going to be fine, but we're always going to be dealing with, like, the turbulence of whoever came before us and what they had to react to.

[Danelia Cotton]

Exactly. I mean, I think about. I think this book is very much about the struggle for anyone in a family to understand each other. But, you know, more broadly, for any individual to understand somebody else. There's. There are so many differences between people. Right. There's the sort of generational difference. Sometimes there can be a cultural difference. We just have different, like, reference points, and we have lived different lives. And it's kind of a miracle when people do actually communicate. Right. Despite all those differences. And I think that question of parents understanding their children is something that I'm so fascinated by, because parents are. Or, you know, you hope that parents are trying to do the best they can for their child. But even if they do do their very best, it's not necessarily what that child needs, because the child is living through a completely different circumstance and a different cultural context or just generational context. And I think it's so sad, right, that you can try your best. You can want the best for your child and not really fully be able to imagine what that child actually needs.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. I think that the key to parenting. And by the way, I have it everyone. Yes. So, good news. I've cracked the code now. I mean, obviously there are always going to be ways in which I'm a parent. We as parents, let our kids down. Being open to that reality and acknowledging it seems like the only way forward. Being a perfect parent is not a realistic thing. Being a parent who recognizes our own inability to be a perfect parent is pretty much all you can do.

[Danelia Cotton]

Yeah. Sometimes people ask me, you know, is there any takeaway from this book? And I always say, you know, there is no takeaway. That's not why I write novels. It's not for, like, a perfect.

[Luke Burbank]

Hold on, let me scratch my final question.

[Ken Edwards]

I know.

[Luke Burbank]

No takeaway.

[Danelia Cotton]

No takeaway. But I do think the sort of unglamorous takeaway is. I don't know. It's a book that sort of makes a case for humility. The fact that we don't know everything, that a parent can't know everything about their child, that a Government can't know everything for its citizens, and there are so many limits to what we can know. And I think that as people, we're at this moment in history where we kind of think we can know everything. Right. Like, we're so certain about science and about AI Being great.

[Luke Burbank]

And I think that laugh kind of.

[Danelia Cotton]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

Tells you all you need to know about AI at least as of right now.

[Danelia Cotton]

And I think, yeah, I don't know if that's a good thing, to be so sure of ourselves and to be so sure in our own knowledge.

[Luke Burbank]

The book is Real Americans from Rachel Kong. Thanks for coming on Live Wire.

[Rachel Kong]

Thank you. Thanks so much.

[Luke Burbank]

That was Rachel Kong right here on Livewire as part of the Portland Book Festival. Her latest book, Real Americans, is out now. Hey, special thanks this episode to Ken Edwards of Portland, Oregon, who is part of the Livewire member community and is generously supporting the show with a donation each month. And we are grateful for that support because it is how we are able to keep doing the show. So, Ken, thank you for keeping Livewire going. This is Livewire Radio from prx. I'm Luke Burbank. That's Elena Passarello. We love to ask the Livewire audience a question based on kind of what's going on with the show week to week? And so, inspired by Rachel Kong's book, Real Americans, we asked the Livewire listeners, what's something you do as an adult that would shock your younger self? I feel like a lot of adulthood is participating in things and doing stuff that you would have never dreamed of as a kid.

[Danez Smith]

Yeah.

[Rachel Kong]

Yeah.

[Danez Smith]

When I was a kid, I didn't know what a colonoscopy was or, like.

[Luke Burbank]

Definitely when I was a kid, I would have assumed that at my age, I would live in a tree fort and I would eat candy all day. And I'm doing none of those things, even though I have the option.

[Danelia Cotton]

But.

[Luke Burbank]

Okay, what are our listeners saying are some things that they're doing as adults that would have been shocking to their younger versions?

[Danez Smith]

AJ Says their younger self would be shocked because, quote, I own a duster, and I actually use the duster.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh. Oh, okay. Like the thing that you dust off, you know, like.

[Danez Smith]

Yes. Like a jacket. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I feel like I used to walk into houses and never pay attention to the level of dust or anything. I just, I was completely unable to see it. And now, like, right before we started recording, one of my recording devices has dust on it, and it is driving me crazy.

[Luke Burbank]

Okay, here's the thing. I Love going around and dusting. It's very satisfying. But it raises the question, where is this dust going?

[Danez Smith]

That's why you gotta vacuum it afterwards, my dude.

[Luke Burbank]

That's the problem. What's something else that someone. Someone's younger self would be surprised they're doing in adulthood?

[Danez Smith]

Well, this one hits hard. Sarah says, I appreciate naps, not as a punishment, but as a precious gift from Go. Oh, a good nap.

[Luke Burbank]

Absolutely.

[Danez Smith]

Oh, God.

[Luke Burbank]

I've really been getting into, like, my. My short nap game. You know, like, there was a period in my twenties I would do more like second sleep, maybe after having a few too many drinks the night before. Like, you just go back to bed for a period of maybe over two hours. How about you? What's your nap strategy?

[Danez Smith]

My nap strategy is to put a pillow over my head, so. And have a cat directly on my chest so I can hold both of its paws with a pillow over my head. And then my husband walks in and he says, it looks like the weird. The world's weirdest murder plot, because it looks like the cat has smothered me with the pillow and is then, like, choking me. But really, I'm just like.

[Luke Burbank]

Cats, Nature's white noise machine.

[Danez Smith]

Yes.

[Luke Burbank]

All right. One more thing that somebody is doing as an adult that they would have never expected when they were kids.

[Danez Smith]

Oh, poor Jesse. Jesse says, I recently spent $2,000 on a garage door.

[Luke Burbank]

I'm. Listen, I've had a couple of homes. Garage door. It's a big part of it. The right garage door, that curb appeal. I've. I've gone down some garage door rabbit holes that I'm not proud of. It's a topic I think about extensively. This is why we all need to be living in tree houses, eating candy.

[Danelia Cotton]

That's right.

[Danez Smith]

That's right. Minimal upkeep, never dusting.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. Thank you to everyone who sent in a response to our listener question this week. By the way, you are listening Livewire radio from prx. Let's talk about our next guest. The Guardian calls them one of the most important American poets of our age. They've been featured in Vanity Fair, the New Yorker. They've made an appearance on the Late show with Stephen Colbert and were also a finalist for the National Book Award. Their latest book is Bluff, and according to the New York Times, they are, quote, a poet who nurses the tension between art and action and exhorts readers to. To acknowledge injustice while appreciating the chaotic nature of human existence. It's a lot to digest. We're going to give it A shot. Take a listen to Denez Smith, who joined us at Revolution hall in Portland, Oregon, to talk about it. Welcome back to the show, Denez. It's so nice to have you back.

[Rachel Kong]

Thank you for having me.

[Luke Burbank]

This book is really phenomenal. I'm wondering what it was. You've written other books, and they've been really well received. What did you want to say with this book that you maybe hadn't talked about previously?

[Rachel Kong]

Yeah, you know, I didn't write for about two years after my previous book, Homie, partly because I had written three books in five years and just kind of needed to shut up for a little bit. I think that's good.

[Luke Burbank]

Is that something for a writer that you need to sort of recharge or build up some kind of new experience?

[Rachel Kong]

1000%. Carl Phillips has a wonderful essay called Silence in his book My Trade is Mystery. And I think he articulates really, really well the necessity of having time away from language. So that way, when you come to it, you actually have something to say. Right. So I think there is, like, you know, just that necessary quiet that we all need. Not even just writers, Right. To let language and truth marinate inside you. Right. You can also talk too much. J.K. rowling wrote all those books, and look, she still talks. And it's bad now. And so.

[Luke Burbank]

So you were trying to avoid that trap.

[Rachel Kong]

There we go.

[Luke Burbank]

Also, I guess maybe on a more serious note, if I have the timeline correct, your sort of couple of years that you weren't writing coincided with the pandemic and the murder of George Floyd.

[Rachel Kong]

Murder of George Floyd. And I'm from Minneapolis, and so it was in my backyard. Right. And writing felt like the last thing that I should do in that time. Right. So I think it felt like a time of action. It felt like a time. Time of strategy, of community. Right. And I think by the time I was coming back to poetry, it was like, what? Why? So that's why I think a lot of the book is this struggle with what is the purpose of art.

[Luke Burbank]

Right.

[Rachel Kong]

Art can't be enough. I am like, you go to the work of June Jordan, writing in the 70s, 80s and 90s. You go to the work of James Baldwin. I just did another project on the work of Langston Hughes, and one of the comments you get all the time is, oh, my God, it feels like they could have wrote this today. Well, that's because progress is literally that same that the poems of a hundred years ago feel like they have the same wants, needs, concerns, and demands as the poems that we're writing today. And I think I was at a point where writing just didn't feel like the thing to do. And so if I was gonna write poetry, I really had to tug at it and figure out what its use was.

[Danez Smith]

Do you feel. You know, when I think about arguing, like arguing with yourself, arguing with the world, I think about something that's really not the same thing as verse. What does it look like to try to make something that's a poem that's also, like, a manifestation of, like, you arguing?

[Rachel Kong]

Well, I think that's what poems do. I think poems are little vehicles of transformation and humanness. And what do we want out of an argument besides transformation? Even if we just think that our partner thinks the wrong thing? You know, we get into that argument until they think the right thing. Right. Right. I love my husband. Do you ever write a poem when.

[Danez Smith]

You get in a fight with him? Do you ever write a poem to see if he'll change his mind?

[Rachel Kong]

No, he gets it straight from the cow's mouth. But then I write a lovely poem about, you know, forgiveness and the difficulty and beauty of love and. Elena, to answer your question about argumentation, right. I think it's good to struggle against something. Right. Poetry is an art of epiphany. It's an art of thought. It's an art of saying this was the truth. Right. And the best truths in our lives come from a little bit of argument.

[Luke Burbank]

You know, you were talking about sort of struggling or asking yourself the question of, like, if, you know, if poetry matters or why poetry matters. And I feel like that is something that is sort of addressed in, like, the first poem in this book, which is Anti Poetica.

[Rachel Kong]

Yes.

[Luke Burbank]

Can you read that for us?

[Rachel Kong]

Yeah, I sure can. This is Anti Poetica. And Ars Poetica is like, something that's, like, about the art of poetry.

[Luke Burbank]

So.

[Rachel Kong]

So this is the opposite. Cool. Antipoetica. There is no poem greater than feeding someone. There is no poem wiser than kindness. There is no poem more important than being good to children. There is no poem outside love's violent potential for cruelty. There is no poem that ends grief but nurses it toward light. There is no poem that isn't jealous of song or murals or wings. There is no poem free from money's ruin. No poem in the Capitol nor the court. Most policy rewords a devil's script. There is no poem in the law. There is no poem in the West. There is no poem in the North. Poems only live south of south. Something meaning beneath and darkened and hot. There is no poem in the winter, nor in whiteness, nor are there poems in the landlord's name. No poem to admonish the state. No poem with a key to the locks. No poem to free you.

[Luke Burbank]

That is Danez Smith reading from their book Bluff here on livewire. That's the first poem in the book. Was that the first poem you wrote for the book?

[Rachel Kong]

Heavens, no.

[Luke Burbank]

But you wanted to place that one at the beginning of this book Bluff.

[Rachel Kong]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

Because you wanted to start that conversation for the beginning of the book.

[Rachel Kong]

Well, let's just get it out the way, right? Let's just say what poetry don't do, right? Because then poetry can then take the rest of the 130 some pages to do its thing, right?

[Luke Burbank]

And also, I think it's like managing expectations. It is.

[Rachel Kong]

It's also like managing a marriage, right? I've been saying that. It's sort of like somebody once told me when I got married that even if you're doing well, every seven years, go to couples therapy, right? Just to check under the hood, right? Just to, like, see if there's anything sneaking around, right? Or even just to, like, be able to talk lushly about how good it is, right? And so I've been a poet now for most of my life, since I was a wee little ninth grader, have I been purporting to be a poet in the world. And so it was time to, I think, like, brush up and, like, really exfoliate and do something with that relationship, right? To say that, like, what is the purpose? Right? And I don't make. I do make art for art's sake. Sometimes I love writing poems about squirrels. Oh, my God, they're so fun. But also, if I'm gonna be writing this work that has real demands in the world, right? There's a line in the book that's something akin to, we wanted to stop being killed and they thanked me for beauty. Talking about the poems, right? That when my career sort of took off, you know, the reason I'm sitting on this stage right now is because my poems became important to people after the murder of Mike Brown, after all these murders of black men and women across the country, right? And if the only thing I have to show for it is publication and acclaim, how whack is that? Like, I want my people to be free. I think we all deserve freedom, right? And so there are these real demands that I have for poetry. And I think coming out of 2020, I just had to brush up against that part of my artistry, right? That that that wanted to be satisfied by award, that wanted to be satisfied by comfort. That wanted to be satisfied by the fact that I can do this. But the reason I do this is because I believe that art is not sufficient. Right. But it is one tool that I know how to use to put energy into people so that we can do something about this world where we all deserve to be seen as human. That. That is very much up to debate in a lot of different ways across our nation and across our world.

[Luke Burbank]

We're talking to Danez Smith here on Livewire. Their latest book of poetry is Bluff. We lost the poet Nikki Giovanni recently, and you posted a quote of hers on Instagram. And it was. And I really hope no white person ever has cause to write about me because they never understand black love is black wealth. And they'll probably talk about my hard childhood and never understand that all the while, I was quite happy.

[Rachel Kong]

Amen.

[Luke Burbank]

How do you take that into your work, to write about the real problems of our society without letting white people think that black joy is not a real thing?

[Rachel Kong]

I think they think it's a real thing. I think the problem is you're never really fully. That's that not being seen as human bit that I'm talking. So what Nikki's talking about, I feel that, right? Even in the way people talk about this book. There's a lot of love in this book. But I think there's a particular gaze that can look at it and only see what is anger and only see what is revolution and rebuttal and, you know, all this stuff, right? But there's. But there's a lot of love sitting in the middle of that, right? And when you're only able to see people in their anguish and not in the vastness of their humanity, which also includes joy. Right? That's the problem. I think at a certain point, you just can't worry about who's looking at it. It's art. Everybody's gonna look at it. And what I need to actually pay attention to is, like, when the people I want to pay attention to my art are looking at it and reading it, how do they feel? That's the only thing I need to privilege. Everybody else is gonna be able to eavesdrop and do what they wanna do with it. But I need to make sure that if I have this beloved audience, that they feel the power in the work, right? And everybody else can misconstrue something because that's what people do. You know, people can't read. So I don't Mean that to be, like, elitist. I just mean that they can't. And so. And I can't help that. Right. And so let me just do the work that I must do and, yeah, let the mistakes happen.

[Luke Burbank]

I'm kind of paraphrasing here, but in the book, you have a line about saying that the challenge with poetry is that you writing about your personal history, but the line between that and the history of, say, your people, not to be overly broad is a very, very thin line. And that in order to tell your personal story, you have to tell a story of a larger group of folks. Have you encountered people in your own life who, you know, push back on being part of your story as published in your books?

[Rachel Kong]

Oh, yeah. There were some awkward Thanksgivings before. There's a poem in my last book called Waiting on youn to Die so I can be myself. Right.

[Luke Burbank]

I can't see. I can't see how that would create any complicated feelings.

[Rachel Kong]

Yeah. And, you know, it's all about, like, you know, complicated queerness in family and love. Right. And one day my grandma looked at me and just said, so you want me to die? And I look back at her and I said, oh, my God, no, no, no, no, Grandma. You know, that's my girl. If you know anything about my girl, we're tight. That's my lady. I said, no, I don't want you to die. But we had a turning point in our relationship where she had some homophobia that she would just not let go of, and I think was just sort of releasing it rampantly. One day I was at her house cleaning out the. All of us were cleaning out her attic, and she turns out of nowhere and says, if Danez gets married to a man, I'm not coming. And I walked out and I said, I love you so much, and I'm the only grandchild you have that is gonna come over and move these boxes. And if you want that grandson, then you have to let go of that spirit. And we didn't talk for a little bit, and now she's back to being my lady. Right. And so I told her that day that, no, I don't want you to die, but something in you had to die so that we could have a relationship. Yeah. Sometimes poetry helps that way.

[Luke Burbank]

Can we hear another poem from the book? This one is kind of. Seems to be a bit of a bookend to the first one that we heard. This is. I was hoping you could read Ars Poetica.

[Rachel Kong]

Yeah. And also just imagine, like, this first line that was page one. This is 119. So there's been a lot of back and forth about what poetry can do in the world and who's gonna kill us and who we should kill and blah blah, blah a lot. And also like love and making love and grandparents. Okay, cool. Ars poetica. All that other Even when the fog cleared the wrong sky off my mind, the horizon at the end of pity is a useless sun, hot headed and bitter born light, let the daughter rise. When my earth meets the clouds what her say? What next she believe in and nurse my big bad for how long I spent making apologies for what I ain't do. Caught myself sorry for bodies the nation caught in its borderless maw Caught myself washing blood off someone else's hands. I'm off that. That being the mode that made a cage of guilt out my depression, that being what fault I fell into in dress into a lovely but ineffective grave. What I'm sorry for making poetry a house of rebuttals, a temple for the false gods of stagnant argument and dead end field. Here in these lines, in these rooms, I add my blues and my gospels to the record of now. I offer my scratch gold to the blueprint of possible. Dear reader, whenever you are reading, this is the future to me, which means tomorrow is still coming, which means today still lives, which means there is still time for beautiful urgent change, which means there is still time to make more alive, which means there is still poetry. Cool.

[Luke Burbank]

Danez Smith, everyone. That was Danez Smith right here on Livewire. Their new book Bluf is available to read right now. This is Livewire. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. We've got to take a very quick break, but don't go anywhere. When we get back, we will talk to and listen to the singer songwriter Danelia Cotton talking about the work of Charley Pride. That's coming up here on Livewire. Welcome back to LIVEWIRE from prx. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. Before we get to our musical guest this week, a little preview of what we are doing on the show next week. We are going to be chatting with the New Yorker staff writer Emily Nussbaum. She has this book out that I, I read it a while ago but I still think about it so much. It's called Cue the Sun, the Invention of Reality tv. It's a fascinating journey into like the origins of reality programming and kind of what it's done to us culturally. We're also going to hear some music and have A chat with the legendary Portland band and international music sensation Pink Martini. They stopped by to celebrate their 30th anniversary as a band. So make sure you tune in for that next week on the show. In the meantime, our musical guest this week is a powerhouse indie rocker who hails from Hopewell, New Jersey, where she was raised on a steady diet of AC dc, Led Zeppelin and the Rolling Stones. When she launched her career with the release of her first album, she was selected as an artist to watch by WXPN in Philadelphia. Her latest project shows a whole other kind of side of her musical background. It's called Charlie's A tribute to black country music. It pays homage to the trailblazer Charley Pride, who was the first black American voted into the Country Music hall of Fame. While infusing the songs with a fresh, modern approach that is all her own, Danelia Cotton joined us at the Patricia Research center for the Arts in Beaverton, Oregon, to talk with us and play a song. Check it out. Hey there. Welcome to Livewire.

[Ken Edwards]

Thank you.

[Luke Burbank]

Thanks for traveling all the way out here to do this. We really appreciate it. Did I read correctly that this project started out with you finding a Charley Pride album that belonged to your 101-year-old grandmother?

[Ken Edwards]

No, but she's 103, and she would kill you for those two years. It actually belonged to my grandfather, who was her husband, who's no longer with us. And he hid it under the bed because he was like a closeted country fan. And she, when it all came out, she was like, it was my album and he took it.

[Luke Burbank]

But I stand by my initial statement that this was your grandmother's record. Why was it the case that this was. When I was reading this interview with you talking about it, it was news to me that as a black person in America at a certain point, point to like, country music was something that you might have to keep from. From the wider world.

[Ken Edwards]

They moved to Hopewell in about, like, 1941. And it wasn't like, it wasn't like black men were all over the country. Yeah, Giddy up, yo.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah.

[Ken Edwards]

And I don't. He was a quiet man. And very much, I mean, the similarity between him and Charley Pride's story, he was just, he didn't think about Hopewell as a white town. He just saw 10 acres. He wanted to buy and raise his kids. And, you know, I think Charley Pride didn't think, oh, this is a white genre. I just like this genre. So they're sort of in that way. And then they were both like, Regal, quiet men and. Yeah, and they earned the respect. Charley Pride earned the respect in his genre. And my grandfather, everyone loved him. He was quite a person.

[Luke Burbank]

How do you take your particular style of music and then take the music of Charley Pride and interpret it in a way that is yours, but still also honoring him?

[Ken Edwards]

I think that's a good question, because I think a lot of artists that are going into country, I think. I don't like when certain people say it should all be just one genre. I think there is value to all the genres being what they are. But I believe if you go into a genre, you have to tip your hat somewhat to what it is. You can't recreate it. I mean, you can, but it's not. I don't think it's the way to go in with respect.

[Luke Burbank]

I see.

[Ken Edwards]

You know, and I think then you're not really doing country music. You have to, to some degree, put a little bit, you know, in there. So, yeah, I think that that's important. And it shows. Shows respect and honor for what you're, you know, where you're about to go.

[Luke Burbank]

We actually here at this very stage, we talked to the photographer Ivan McClellan some months ago about his beautiful book of photography taken at black rodeos. Obviously, Cowboy Carter, Beyonce's record has been this smash hit. Do you have any sense that the black country and black cowboy experience is starting to, at least in some small way, get its due?

[Ken Edwards]

I do. I absolutely do. Like, I had done this project, but she opened a door and there's still, I mean, we still have to. As a race, we're still fighting for equality, really, on all levels. And so every once in a while, when a door is open in some respect where we couldn't get in, as many of us try to run through as possible because it will shut again. But I think that, you know, I have to give it to her. She opened that door wider and then there were many that were there. Yeah, but they got the light, you know, shown on them at that point, so you can't. You know, a lot of people are like, ah, she done wasn't doing their country, you know, I mean, she. Her popularity and her stature allowed a whole bunch of people to be seen. I gotta give that to her. That's just. Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, we're excited to hear some music. What song are we gonna hear?

[Ken Edwards]

This is called Bring out the country and Me. And it's basically. It's the only original from the album. I wanted to put one on that was just mine. And it's Basically, when I moved to the city, I couldn't not be me, like, growing up, you know, my other half was born and raised there. And so he was like, why are you. You don't wave to people. Like, look down. It was difficult for me, but I stayed me. It actually made me more me. You're you. I'm like, authentically Danilia no matter where I am.

[Luke Burbank]

All right, it's Danilia Cotton here on Livewire.

[Elena Passarello]

Last stop to the shit. Guitar in my head Got a suitcase full of dreams I ain't got no plans Too many faces, too many places could almost lose who I am Everything's moving fast right now I will trade concrete for blue grass oh, these big shifty lights Bring out the country and they say hello and goodbye to everyone that I'll see When I close my eyes I'll see that old cherry tree country girl is all I'll ever be country girl is all I'll ever be I got a job, got a room, got a woke up to fight at the end of the day it's worth the prize, yeah Something goes wrong I write a song Then the world feels.

[Ken Edwards]

So right.

[Elena Passarello]

Gonna make my come round Going to sing it high and loud oh, no. The big city lights Bring out the country Me Say hello and goodbye to everyone that I'll see When I close my eyes I'll see that I oh, cherry tree country life is still part of me country girl is I'll never be.

[Ken Edwards]

Oh.

[Elena Passarello]

Cause it's big city lights Bring out the country in me say hello and goodbye to everyone that I see When I close my eyes I see that oh, cherry tree country life is still upon me Big. Yeah Big city City lights Bring out the country and me I say low and goodbye to everyone that I see When I close my eyes I see that old cherry tree the country life is still a part of me.

[Danelia Cotton]

And.

[Elena Passarello]

Our country girl is happy I.

[Rachel Kong]

Oh.

[Elena Passarello]

Oh, I'll never be.

[Luke Burbank]

Danelia Cotton right here on Livewire. That was Danelia Cotton right here on Livewire, performing the song from her new five track ep, Charlie's Pride, A tribute to Black country music. And that is going to do it for this week's episode of Livewire. A huge thanks to our guests Rachel Kong, Danez Smith and Danelia Cotton.

[Danez Smith]

Laura Hadden is our executive producer. Heather D. Michelle is our executive director. And our producer and editor is Melanie Sevchenko Evan. Evan Hoffer is our technical director. Leona Kinderman is our assistant technical director. Hazik Bin Ahmad Farid is our assistant editor and Our house sound is by Nate Zwain Lesk and D. Neil Blake. Ashley park is our production fellow and Andrea Castro Martinez is our marketing associate.

[Luke Burbank]

Our house band is Sam Pinkerton, Sam Tucker, Ethan Fox, Tucker, Al Alves, and A. Walker Spring, who also composes our music. This week's episode was mixed by Eben Hoffer and Hazik Bin Ahmad Farid.

[Danez Smith]

Additional funding provided by the Oregon Arts Commission, a state agency funded by the State of Oregon and the National Endowment for the Arts. Livewire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week we'd like to thank member Ken Edwards of Portland, Oregon. Also, very special thanks this week to Amanda Bullock Woo and the Portland Book Festival.

[Luke Burbank]

For more information about the show or how you can listen to our podcast, head on over to livewireradio.org I'm Luke Burbank for Elena Passarello and the whole Livewire crew. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week.

[Danez Smith]

PRX.

[Luke Burbank]

Wouldn't it be amazing to have a piping hot episode of Livewire delivered right to your heart and ears each week? Well, guess what? That can happen when you subscribe to the Livewire podcast feed, and you'll get the joy of surprising conversation every week. So go ahead and do it. It's super easy. You click on the button at the top of your podcast app and bam. You are Livewire subscribed. And if you're still, you know, feeling the love, if you're enjoying the show, hey, maybe you could hook us up and leave us a quick review that'll help more people find out about Livewire Wire. And thank you from prx.