Sam Sanders, Sandi DuBowski, and The Lowest Pair

Summary

Live Wire with Luke Burbank
Episode: Sam Sanders, Sandi DuBowski, and The Lowest Pair
Date: September 12, 2025

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Episode Overview

This vibrant episode of Live Wire brings together a dynamic trio of guests. Host Luke Burbank starts with award-winning podcaster and pop culture observer Sam Sanders for a thoughtful (and playful) conversation on monoculture, the influence of "In Living Color," peak stadium concerts, and the weird world of viral content. Next, Burbank welcomes filmmaker Sandi DuBowski, whose moving new documentary "Sabbath Queen" explores a queer rabbi’s challenge to Jewish tradition and generational change. The episode closes with a rousing musical performance by folk-duo The Lowest Pair, featuring a hilarious story about a 45-minute improvisation at a medical marijuana farmers market.

With wit and warmth, the episode dives into modern culture, identity, family, faith, and the oddities of internet fame.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Best News of the Week (01:51–08:32)

• Elena Passarello shares the story of Ken Broussard, who, at age 66, trained to become a marching band member at LSU, rekindling his tuba skills, becoming a non-traditional student, and finally performing on the field.
  • Quote (05:25):
    “People retire, but dreams don’t.” — Ken Broussard, as quoted by Elena Passarello
• Luke Burbank highlights Brooke Johnson, who skateboarded across America in honor of her late stepfather, Roger, raising $50,000 for spinal injury research, and carrying Roger’s ashes the whole way.
  • Emotional moment: When nearly quitting in bleak conditions, Brooke finds and plays a supportive voicemail from Roger, helping her finish her journey.

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Conversation with Sam Sanders (08:32–26:12)

The End of Monoculture and Iconic TV (09:45–15:12)

• The loss of a shared monoculture:
  Sam argues that with the explosion of streaming and social media, we no longer come together around a handful of shows — leading to uniquely individual pop culture experiences.
  • Quote (10:08):
    “There’s like, I want more things that everyone is consuming together.” — Sam Sanders (C)
• If we had to pick three shows for the monoculture:
  Sam’s hot picks:
  1. I Love Lucy (the sitcom as the ultimate unifier)
  2. Girls (for its self-aware commitment to unlikable characters)
  3. In Living Color (for changing pop culture and the Super Bowl halftime show paradigm)
  • In Living Color’s legacy:
    Sam details how the show’s halftime special outperformed the Super Bowl’s official production, prompting networks to up their game (e.g., landing Michael Jackson the next year), and how the Wayans family and stars like JLo, Rosie Perez, Jim Carrey, and Jamie Foxx owe part of their rise to the program.
    • Quote (12:54):
      “Pop culture as we know it doesn’t exist without In Living Color.” — Sam Sanders (C)
    • Quote (14:46):
      “The entire Wayans family—put them on Mount Rushmore. I’ve said this before.” — Sam Sanders (C)

Peak Stadium Concerts & The Desire for Intimacy (15:55–18:44)

• Sanders reflects on the spectacle of modern stadium tours (Beyoncé, Taylor Swift, Pink) and wonders if we’ve reached saturation, yearning for a return to smaller, more intimate live performances or the spirit of MTV Unplugged.
  • Quote (16:51): “I had this epiphany after seeing Renaissance four times... I go to the Cowboy Carter tour, and I’m like, mm, I’ve seen this.” — Sam Sanders
  • Quote (18:12): “The smaller, more intimate venue opens up these artists to new musical possibilities.” — Sam Sanders

Podcasts, Video, and the Bizarre Attention Economy (19:03–24:58)

• Tribeca Film Festival now has a podcast division; Sam jokes about receiving his judge invite as a texted screenshot rather than a formal Robert De Niro-signed letter.
• Are there too many podcasts? Sam says no: "No one ever says there’s too many books... but yeah, the more the merrier." (21:13)
• Video podcasting and the challenge of virality:
  • The struggle of crafting elaborate, personal content that loses to random viral moments ("vampire movies can predict recessions" or a debate over “Apple Bottom Jeans” lyrics).
  • The oddity of competing with everything from ASMR rug cleaning videos to comedians’ hot takes.
  • Quote (24:43): “Ten years ago, when I began podcasting, you were just up against other podcasters. And now I have to compete with short-form ASMR Rug Deep Cleaning Videos.” — Sam Sanders

Joy of Pop Culture Commentary (25:03–25:58)

• Sanders confirms he never tires of discussing pop culture:
  • Quote (25:30): “No, it’s just fun. I mean, I get paid to, like, watch Internet, watch TV, watch movies... and then talk about them. I’m so lucky. Every day I’m grateful for it.”

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Audience Q&A: "Mandatory Viewing" TV Shows (27:24–30:46)

• Somebody Somewhere (for its celebration of friendship)
• Andor (praised as “perfect. 10 out of 10, no notes.”)
• The Real Housewives franchise (for following the lives and growth of middle-aged to older women, and showing autonomy)
  • Warm banter about the broader significance of “guilty pleasure” shows and cultural phenomenon.

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Conversation with Sandi DuBowski (Filmmaker, "Sabbath Queen") (31:40–41:47)

The Story and its Roots (31:57–32:49)

• Origin: Sandi met Rabbi Amichai Lau-Lavie in the late '90s while filming "Trembling Before G-d." Already a boundary-breaker, Amichai declined to be in that project, joking, “I don’t do collage.”
  • They developed trust and began filming "Sabbath Queen" five years later.

Legacy, Challenge, and Stretching Tradition (32:54–36:09)

• Amichai comes from a thousand-year Orthodox rabbinical dynasty — dubbed “the Kennedys of Judaism.”
• The film shows the arc of Amichai’s relationship with his brother, an Orthodox rabbi, who learns to “show up” and practice difficult dialogue despite differences.
  • Quote (33:46): “There’s something about... what does it mean to show up? What does it mean to commit to difficult dialogue?... That act of committing to discomfort and disagreement for me is so powerful.” — Sandi DuBowski

Interfaith Marriage, Generational Trauma, and Transformation (36:09–38:40)

• The film’s central tension: officiating interfaith (and same-sex) marriages.
  For many, intermarriage (not sexual orientation) is the more existential challenge, rooted in intergenerational trauma and a desire to maintain cultural boundaries.
• But as Sandi notes, over 70% of liberal American Jews are in relationships with non-Jews — so tradition is adapting, whether officially or not.
  • Quote (37:44): “We’re in a time of sacred hybridity... We need to lean into love. We need love to drive our world. Like, we’re so fear-based right now.” — Sandi DuBowski

Navigating Gaza, Truth, and Discomfort (38:40–41:39)

• The film’s candid inclusion of Amichai’s call for a Gaza ceasefire has led some Jewish film festivals to decline screening it, but DuBowski stands by its honesty, emphasizing the need to hold space for disagreement.
  • Quote (40:37): “I love the film. I hate the last two minutes. But I’m still recommending it to all my friends. That means sitting in discomfort... and the ability to hold the both/and. I think we need that.” — Sandi DuBowski
• Amichai's influence continues: his brother's daughter Orly is set to become the first female rabbi in this millennia-old dynasty.
  • Quote (41:39): “Queer people change people. You know, that’s what we do. Like, we come from that place of the margin and we have power, you know, to shape the world.” — Sandi DuBowski

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Musical Performance: The Lowest Pair (44:29–50:09)

• Backstory:
  The Lowest Pair hilariously retell how, overwhelmed by “medical samples” at a marijuana farmers market, they forgot all their songs and improvised the same tune for 45 minutes to avoid driving.
  • Quote (44:55): “Palmer looked at me and said, I have forgotten all of our songs. And I said, I too have forgotten all of our songs. Let’s get out of here.” — Kendall Winter
• Performance:
  They deliver a heartfelt, rootsy rendition of “Stand By Me” (not to be confused with the Ben E. King classic), with Appalachian harmonies and intricate banjo. Their chemistry and wit shine on stage.

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “People retire, but dreams don’t.” — Elena Passarello on Kent Broussard (05:25)
• “Pop culture as we know it doesn’t exist without In Living Color.” — Sam Sanders (12:54)
• “The entire Wayans family—put them on Mount Rushmore.” — Sam Sanders (14:46)
• “There’s like, I want more things that everyone is consuming together.” — Sam Sanders (10:08)
• “The smaller, more intimate venue opens up these artists to new musical possibilities.” — Sam Sanders (18:12)
• “No one ever says there’s too many books... but yeah, the more the merrier.” — Sam Sanders (21:13)
• “Ten years ago, when I began podcasting, you were just up against other podcasters. And now I have to compete with short-form ASMR Rug Deep Cleaning Videos.” — Sam Sanders (24:43)
• “Queer people change people. You know, that’s what we do. Like, we come from that place of the margin and we have power, you know, to shape the world.” — Sandi DuBowski (41:39)
• “We’re in a time of sacred hybridity... We need to lean into love. We need love to drive our world. Like, we’re so fear-based right now.” — Sandi DuBowski (37:44)
• “I have forgotten all of our songs...Let’s get out of here.” — Kendall Winter, The Lowest Pair (44:55)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Best News of the Week – 01:51–08:32
• Sam Sanders Interview (Monoculture and TV) – 08:32–15:12
• Sam Sanders on Stadium Concerts & Podcast Culture – 15:55–26:12
• Audience Q&A: Mandatory TV – 27:24–30:46
• Sandi DuBowski Interview & ‘Sabbath Queen’ – 31:40–41:47
• The Lowest Pair: Story & Song – 44:29–50:09

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Tone & Style

The episode blends wit, heart, and deep cultural reflection. Sanders is smart and genial; DuBowski is articulate, passionate, and direct; the hosts balance journalistic insight with lighthearted banter. The musical guest brings both humor and warmth, rounding out an episode that moves naturally between celebration, critique, and genuine storytelling.

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Summary

This Live Wire episode is a lively, poignant, and insightful ride through pop culture, faith, personal transformation, and how viral content both divides and unites us. Whether you’re nostalgic for shared TV moments, curious about faith at the margins, or just here for killer banjo licks and banter, you’ll find something to savor and discuss.

Transcript

[A]

Hey there. Welcome to Livewire. I'm your host, Luke Burbank. This week we are talking to Sam Sanders, host of the Sam Sanders show, about all things pop culture, including why Sam believes that the TV show In Living Color, remember Homie to clown and Fire Marshal Bill why Sam thinks In Living Color is one of the most influential TV programs of all time. Then we're gonna talk to filmmaker Sandy Dabowski about his latest documentary. It's called Sabbath Corporate. The film follows the life of Rabbi Amichai Lau Lavey, who used his drag as part of his God optional congregation that he founded to practice his faith in a new and very novel way. And then speaking of old novel things, we're gonna hear some banjo from the folk duo, the Lowest Pair. We have a fascinating live wire for you this week that covers all kinds of ground. You're not gonna want to miss it, but you gotta stay tuned because it gets started right after this.

[B]

From prx, it's Live Wire this week, podcaster Sam Sanders.

[C]

Ten years ago, when I began podcasting, you were just up against the other podcasters. And now I have to compete with short form ASMR Rug Deep Cleaning Videos, filmmaker Sandy Dubowski.

[D]

Queer people change people. You know, that's what we do. Like we come from that place of the margin and we have power with.

[B]

Music from the Lowest Pair and our fabulous house band. I'm your announcer, Elena Passarello. And now the host of Livewire, Luke Burbank.

[A]

Thank you so much, Elana Passarello. Thanks to everyone for tuning, tuning in from all over the United States of America. We have a really fun, informative show for you this week. But of course, we got to kick things off like we always do with the best news we heard all week. This is our little reminder that there is, in fact, good news happening out there in the world. You just have to look for it. Also, sometimes you have to play hurt, as they say. You have to broadcast through feeling a little under the weather, which is what Elena Passarello is doing this week. Thank you. Thank you for your commitment to the Livewire project. What is the best news that you heard all week?

[B]

I mean, it might be because I'm all hopped up on cold medicine, but I cannot tell this story without bursting into tears. So just be forewarned. It's just sweet. It's a happy, sweet story. And it's in one of my favorite states in the Union, Louisiana. It involves a guy named Kent Broussard, who is a 66 year old, I think Louisiana native. Definitely grew up in close proximity to Tiger Stadium.

[A]

Oh sure, where LSU plays.

[B]

That's right. Went to LSU games ever since he was a little kid. Loved the pageantry, especially loved the band. Was a musician, played the tuba and the sousaphone in school and ended up going to Southeast Louisiana University, which does not have a marching band. But he played in like the symphonic band. Got two degrees, became an accountant, retired in his early 60s. Seems to have done very well for himself. So when he retired in 2023, he decided to take a long journey to make himself eligible to play in the LSU Tiger Band. It was not an easy task. He's doing yard work in a weighted vest, he's running 20 miles a week, he's getting swole, he's working with a music teacher who's teaching him not just how to play the tuba and the sousaphone again because he had to relearn how to read music and all that, but how to march with a musical instrument. This is five years of work. And then of course his long suffering wife was like, and then he practiced the tuba marching up and down the neighborhood and the neighbors were sort of into it. Everyone was so supportive though his own daughter got in touch with the band program at LSU to see if there was a pathway into him to be able to audition. And there was. So at 66 years old, Ken Broussard enrolled as a non traditional freshman at LSU, taking classes, 12 credits and went to the whole summer band camp gauntlet training. And a couple of weeks ago they announced, you know, which folks made the cut and we're going to be starting members of the band. And he made it unbelievable. I know. And on September 6th in the game against Louisiana Tech, he hit the field as the oldest member of the Golden Band from Tiger Land. On the tuba he was rocking the Jumbotron. People were weeping.

[A]

I haven't thought about that, but you're absolutely right. Like you see those clips of the football players hitting the tackling sled and sweating out pure Gatorade. And you do not think about the marching band folks that are going through something that's arguably as physically challenging in the same, you know, weather situation. And to be doing all of that at the age that our guy was doing it at that is truly incredible.

[B]

In double knit polyester while holding like a 70 pound instrument. I don't know how much it weighs, but I just want to close on a great quote that Kent said. He said, you know what, people retire, but dreams don't seem so he made it happen and the whole world is proud of him.

[A]

The best news that I heard all week is also an example of some incredible, I guess you could say, physical fitness. It involves a woman named Brooke Johnson. Now, Brooke Johnson was very close in life with her stepfather, a guy named Roger. And Roger, unfortunately, a few years ago, was involved in an accident where he had. Part of his spine was broken, and he lost his mobility. He was in a wheelchair.

[C]

And.

[A]

And Brooke is apparently really into skateboarding. And she had always talked with her stepdad, Roger, about this idea of trying to skateboard across America. And the idea at the time was that they were gonna have Roger in some kind of a. Like, a wheelchair or wheeled device, and she was gonna skateboard, and he was gonna wheel, and they were gonna kind of go across the country. Interestingly enough, Roger seemed more confident about this whole situation than Brooke did. She was like, apparently. She kept saying, roger, it's a really big country.

[B]

She's not wrong.

[A]

Understatement of the year. And then Roger was like, yeah, you can do it. Well, unfortunately, Roger ended up passing away. But this dream of Brooke skateboarding across America, by the way, becoming the first woman to ever do this, did not die. In fact, Roger's passing only kind of increased her motivation to do this. And so not that long ago, she set out. She started off in Santa Monica, California, and the plan was to skateboard all the way across the country, 3,226 miles. And I was watching this unfold kind of in real time on TikTok. What you don't understand about skateboarding across America, as Brooke Johnson did, is how much of America is uphill. And then you watch somebody out there skateboarding uphill, a mountain pass in, like, the southwest somewhere. And I was seriously, like, watching this Brooke Johnson do this project, and I just thought, give up. You cannot do this. This is way too much for one person to try to do. She did not give up, Elena. In fact, she raised all of this money for this foundation that helps people who have sustained spinal injuries. She raised, like, over $50,000 for this project. She also had this incredible moment. This is like something out of a movie where she was somewhere in, I think, about the middle of the country. And it was a particularly rough day. The weather was terrible. It was mountainous. And, you know, people do this from time to time. If you have somebody in your life that's passed away, you maybe have voicemail messages from them or other kind of digital ephemera. And, like, when she was at her closest to giving up, she randomly finds this voicemail from Roger that says, Everything's gonna be fine. We can get through this. And she listens to this voicemail message on the day that she was her closest to giving up. And of course, she didn't give up. She pushed on through, made it all the way out to Virginia Beach, Virginia. By the way, she had Roger's ashes with her on this whole journey.

[B]

He took the trip too.

[A]

He did, it turns out. And so Brooke Johnson and Roger resting in peace and doing this incredible thing and raising all this money and showing really and truly that we are incredibly powerful as human beings when we put our mind to stuff. That is the best news that I heard this week. All right, let's get to our first guest. He is an award winning reporter, radio host, podcaster. He founded the hit NPR show It's Been a Minute. These days he hosts the Sam Sanders show from KCRW as well as vibe check from SiriusXM. This is our conversation with Sam Sanders, who joined us live at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. You are the host of the Sam Sanders show, which you record through kcrw and you put out this great newsletter that I love because you always bring up these really like, again, for a person like me who consumes a lot of pop culture, these very interesting ideas, of course they connect up with larger ideas as well.

[C]

You're really nice. I just call them hot takes.

[A]

But one of the things that came up on the show and in the newsletter recently was this idea that we don't have a monoculture anymore that like there used to be three major TV networks and a finite number of shows and movies. And we sort of had to watch them and then talk about them together.

[C]

And that was it. Everyone I went to school with watched the Fresh Prince of Bel Air.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And that's what you did. And you talked about it. And when they changed Aunt Viv from dark skinned Aunt Viv to light skinned Aunt Viv, we all talked about it. And now you find a show. You got to see which of your friends has the same streaming app. You got to convince them to watch it. You got to. So no way. Give it three or four episodes before it heats up, Right. Then they might watch it six months later. And then you've moved on. It's very hard now. There's like, I want more things that everyone is consuming together.

[A]

Well, the question that was posed was, if there were only three TV shows, what would they be? And yours were I Love Lucy, the show Girls and In Living Color. Why did you pick? It's a solid list, isn't That a good list? It is good.

[C]

Subscribe to my newsletter for more takes like these. I'll tell you why for each each one. I think the most universally paddable format of television and the one that could restore monoculture to America is the sitcom. Sitcom is the best kind of TV because it doesn't matter if you know what the hell is going on, you can just start watching. Like I tell folks, the backstory to the Fresh Prince of Bel Air is the theme song, and then you're in it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So if for me, sitcoms are the pinnacle of monoculture television, the pinnacle of sitcom is probably I Love Lucy, because. Come on.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So that's one, and then two. I picked Girls because more than any show that I've watched In the last 15 years, all of them were in on the joke. They knew they were awful. They knew the characters were awful, and they committed to the bit for six seasons. And they were so good at committing. You still think they're awful in real life, don't you? They're not.

[A]

I'm wishing good things for Hannah.

[E]

Yes.

[C]

Always. Always. But, like, you remember that first pilot episode of Girls on hbo? Lena Dumb's character, Hannah Horvath screams either to a man or a mirror or somebody or something. She goes, I'm the voice of a generation. She got months of bad press coverage of folks being like, how dare Lena Dunham call herself the voice of a generation? And it's like, you don't get it.

[D]

Right?

[C]

This is a bit. And so what I love about Girls is that, like, even in the midst of that, they didn't stop the bit right till the very end. They were obnoxious.

[B]

That's a great point.

[A]

And let's talk In Living Color.

[C]

So this is my hottest, hottest theory, okay? Pop culture as we know it doesn't exist without a living color. You ready?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Buckle up. I don't have jokes, but I got a lore. The super bowl halftime show as we know it is a big deal. The halftime show for the biggest game in the world every year. Super bowl halftime show Epic. For the first decade or two of the super bowl, the halftime show was like a marching band or, like, Disney characters dancing or whatever. And Fox realized that they had an opening to compete against the super bowl during the halftime show. Cause it was so bad. And one year, they had an In Living Color halftime special. In Living color was think SNL, think. But 90s blacker, funnier.

[A]

Anywho, yeah, we all watched SNL and in living Color, but we were all doing, like, Homie the Clown and Fire Marshal Bill. We were all walking around at Hamilton Middle School the next day. We were quoting In Living Color on Monday. Not quoting Saturday Night Live.

[C]

Exactly. So this is sometime in the 90s. They're like, we'll do the In Living Color halftime special to compete with the big game. The ratings for that for their special beat the actual halftime show. So the next year, who do they get for the actual halftime show? Michael Jackson. Wow. There's no halftime show as we know it without A Living Color. And as soon as the halftime show becomes a big deal, it changes the world of pop culture. We don't have stadium tour culture as we know it now without the big halftime show. So anywho, In Living Color explains a large part of how pop culture works right now. Also, the entire Wayans family put them on Mount Rushmore. I've said this before.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

All of them. I love them and like what it gave us. Think about the stars that came out of In Living Color besides the Wayans. Jim Carrey, Jamie Foxx. We don't have JLo. Oh yeah, fly Girl. Rosie Perez, also Fly Girl. We don't have the pop culture canon that we know and love today without that show.

[A]

I agree with that. I co signed that take.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

Good take.

[A]

We do need to take a very quick break, so let's just get that out of the way right now. This is Livewire radio from prx. We're talking to Sam Sanders, who also has a show distributed by prx, the Sam Sanders show from kcrw. Back with much more. Livewire in just a moment.

[C]

It.

[A]

Welcome back to Livewire from prx. We are at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. This week. We're talking to Sam Sanders, host of the Sam Sanders show and one of the hosts of Vibe Check. Another thing you've been talking about lately is that you think maybe we've hit peak stadium concert, your Beyonce stuff, your Taylor Swift stuff, these big productions that, that were setting all kinds of records. But now do you feel like we've kind of peaked with that?

[C]

Oh, yeah. Who in here has been to see a megawatt pop star in a stadium at a stadium show?

[A]

Ok, they mostly go to Livewire.

[C]

Who in here would rather enjoy seeing that artist in a small, intimate venue? That's all I'm saying. I get into this fight so much because I'm a big Beyonce fan and I only hang out with other Beyonce fans. And I went to go see her last tour, Renaissance, four times.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

Twice in the uk, twice in la. Like, I loved it. I thought it was one of the greatest live shows I've ever seen. And I think that every 25 years, we get a pop star who was just there. It was Michael, and now it's Beyonce, and that's it. Like, I will not argue that point. But I had this epiphany after seeing Renaissance four times and just, like, having my wig blown off. I'm still bald from it, as you can see. I go to the Cowboy Carter tour, and I'm like, mm, I've seen this. And at one point, the friend I was there with, it was his first Beyonce show. And I'm like, you're still gonna be impressed. But at one point, she starts to sing opera. Cause one of the songs on the album ends with her singing opera. And my friend leans over to me, and he goes, sam, I don't know if I can say this, but it's so great that she's singing opera, but I think I would rather see Beyonce sing opera in an opera hall. And I said, yeah, it's time we did it. Pink is doing Cirque du Soleil flips.

[A]

Oh, boy.

[C]

Taylor Swift is disappearing and changing clothes every three minutes. Beyonce was in, like, an old Corvette soaring through the sky. All of them excel at these feats, but I get it. What I want for an artist like Beyonce or any of these big stars, like, throw it back to, like, Unplugged. Remember MTV Unplugged?

[A]

Sure.

[C]

My favorite MTV Unplugged is Nirvana, because when Nirvana walks into the stage of Unplugged, they're doing the rock that they're known for. Once they do their Unplugged set, all the critics say, oh, their next iteration could be folk music. They could do this. Like, the smaller, more intimate venue opens up these artists to new musical possibilities.

[A]

Well, you know what the new version of that is? Is sort of tiny desk, but I.

[C]

Can'T go to that.

[A]

Well, I know.

[C]

Listen, I want one that I can go to.

[A]

That's fair. That's fair. We're talking to Sam Sanders here on Livewire this week from the Sam Sanders show from kcrw. Also, vibe check and newly minted Tribeca Film Festival judge podcast division. I saw this on Instagram. You had a personal invite girl. Bob De Niro.

[C]

Maybe we'll judge to what so. Okay, okay, let me set this up. Because the older I get, the more I realize, given enough time, all media becomes all other media. This is just the way of the world. And because of this, the Tribeca Film Festival now Has a podcast division. Bless it, fine with it. Support it. Last year, I was up there to do some podcast stuff with them, and this year, one of the organizers of the audio festival portion of Tribeca was like, you want to be a judge? And I made the Instagram post seem very romantic. And Robert De Niro sent me a letter. Here's how it really happened. Davey, text me. He's like, we need. Would you do this for us? And I was like, oh, my God, it's unpaid labor, but I like you. And whatever. Fine. And he's like, okay, I'll email you the official invite. And I don't know what I did wrong, but whatever email address I told him, it kept bouncing back, so he's like, we need to send you the official whatever letter. And I was just like, bro, just send me a screen grab of the text of the email. Send me a screen grab. Because if the email's not going through, it's whatever. So my official invite letter was a text of a screen grab of an email of someone writing, robert De Niro says thanks.

[A]

That's close enough for me.

[C]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

I guess what I'm also curious about is even when you're saying, cause of course, Tribeca Film Festival has a podcast category now. We are podcasters. And yet I feel like the word podcaster makes me cringe.

[C]

I've stopped saying it a lot for a while. I was like. They'd be like, well, people are like, what do you do? And I was like, I'm a podcaster now. I say, I work in media. I'm a journalist.

[A]

Have we reached much like, stadium concerts, have we reached peak podcast?

[C]

You know, for the last several years, I've been getting some version of this question, which is really the question. Are there too many podcasts? You know what I'm saying?

[A]

That was the core of my question.

[C]

Listen, My answer, whenever there's a question of, like, too much competition this, that, it's like, no one ever says, oh, too many books.

[A]

Mm.

[C]

No one ever says there's too many movies. There are too many shows on streaming. Stop. Enough. But, yeah, the more the merrier.

[A]

It's the abundance mindset.

[C]

That's right. We're in fricking video podcast land now. Yeah, I gotta do the YouTubes, man.

[A]

Yeah, you do that, though. And they're great.

[C]

Well, tell people to watch them. But it's hard, though, because, like, we did not come into this industry of audio.

[A]

No.

[C]

To be on camera.

[A]

Nobody saw me and said, put that guy on tv.

[C]

And now, as soon as you start to do it. I have a newfound respect for people who do the on camera stuff for a living because things that you never used to think about, all of a sudden you go to sleep at night thinking about those things. I've never thought about my eyebrows until making YouTube videos. I have a lot of eyebrow products now and I didn't bring my eyebrow products with me, so I'm wearing glasses ton to cover my eyebrows. This is what YouTube has done to me.

[A]

Yes. It's also. And I mean, it's all content and I have respect for anybody making something that people want to watch. But it's weird to work on something like this where so many talented people put their creativity into this. And if we were to put this on the Internet, it would absolutely not chart anywhere near someone in their car who just went on a bad date and is talking into their cell phone. Like, how do you compete with that?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, well, and then it's like, what's wild is that like you never even know, like, what's going to pop. So we'll do the YouTube video of the show and then the social team will pull little small clips to like put up to go on Instagram, TikTok, whatever. And I'll always be like, you need to take the most traumatic part of the conversation of me and this author who went really deep on what it means to be alive. And then that one does. And then last week, though, we had a comedian who's great. Check out his YouTube special, Zach Zimmerman. He had a hot. Take that vampire movies can predict recessions.

[A]

This was a great episode all the way through with recession indicators.

[C]

But that little minute long chunk of him talking about that, it got a million views on Instagram.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

Don't clap. We ain't getting money from it. It's not monetized. And then you're like, well, maybe this will convince people to then go to another app to watch a longer version of this video.

[B]

Right, Please.

[C]

I don't know. I don't know.

[A]

For my other podcast, we were talking and we were trying to figure out some of the specific lyrics of the Flo Rida song Apple Bottom jeans with the boots. With the fur. We were trying to figure out, trying.

[C]

To figure out the lyrics if the.

[A]

Boots had the fur or she had the boots and she was wearing fur. And we were. And Apple bought a shoe.

[C]

Boots with the fur. Yeah, I was alive in that time.

[A]

Do you think?

[B]

So she's wearing boots and a fur.

[C]

No, not in the club.

[A]

Yeah, you were wearing the boots.

[B]

With the fur. This is what I'm talking about.

[C]

The fur lined boots.

[B]

No one wears the fur of the club.

[A]

This was the debate. And listen, fam. We're all fam in this clerb.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

My point is that video on Instagram got millions and millions of views of me and this other guy who looks like me trying to figure out if it's apple bottom jeans with the boots. With the fur or with the fur.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

It's like, how do you win in this media landscape?

[C]

And then it's like, also, you have to understand that you are now in this world of, like, video on your phone and short video on your phone, you're competing against everything ever made.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[C]

Ten years ago, when I began podcasting, you were just up against other podcasters. And now I have to compete with short form ASMR Podcast Rug Deep Cleaning videos. Oh, man, I watched them for hours.

[A]

They're so good.

[C]

I'll skip my own video to go watch some of that. And I'm competing against that now.

[A]

I'm also a really big fan of your other show, Vibe Check.

[C]

Thank you. We have some Vibe Check listeners in the crowd. I know because they were wearing the merch. Thank you all for being here.

[A]

Yeah, right on. Yeah. And I guess I'm just wondering, like, if you. Because obviously you love pop culture, you love talking about it, but you have two jobs where you really. I mean, do you ever get tired of talking about pop culture? Do you ever feel like you're going to work when it's time to go talk pop culture on one of your shows?

[C]

No, it's just fun. I mean, I get paid to, like, watch Internet, watch tv, watch movies, listen to music, read books, and then talk about them. And then half the time I can talk about them from my kitchen table. And I get to expense and have tax write offs of every streaming subscription and every time I go to the movies and every. This is. I'm so lucky. Every day I'm grateful for it.

[A]

That's the right answer. That's the right answer. Well, we are lucky that you love doing it because everything that you create is just so entertaining and thoughtful and we really appreciate you. Sam Sanders, everybody, right here on Livewire.

[C]

Thank y' all for having me.

[A]

That was Sam Sanders, right here on Livewire. Check out the Sam Sanders show and Vibe Check. Wherever your pods are cast. Hey, special thanks this episode to Kaliah Bush of Eagle Creek, Oregon, and Elena Vasquez of Portland, Oregon. Kaliah and Elena are part of the livewire member community and. And they are generously supporting the show with a donation each month. I don't know if you've been listening to the news, but we here in the public broadcasting space can use all the support we can get. So thank you so much to Alaina and Kaliah for making this week's Livewire possible. You're tuned in to Livewire. I'm Luke Burbank with Elena Passarello. Of course. Each week on the program, we like to ask the Livewire audience a question. This week we were inspired by some of Sam Sanders pop culture hot takes, which he's got millions of. And so, Elena, what did we ask the Livewire audience?

[B]

We wanted to know what is the one TV show you think should be mandatory viewing for you and all your friends?

[A]

Okay. I have many answers to this question that I feel are the correct ones. But we are not here to hear my answer to the question. We are here to hear the listeners answers. What are people saying?

[B]

Well, I like some of these and I'm definitely adding a few of these to my list. Lisa says that everyone should watch Somebody Somewhere.

[A]

That was one of mine.

[E]

Ah.

[B]

Lisa says it's because people need to learn how to be good friends. And it's a show about the love of your life being your best friend. Why do you think, Luke, everybody should watch somebody somewhere?

[A]

Well, it is just, I think, one of the most beautiful TV shows that's been made in the last, I don't know, 10 years. Starring Bridget Everett and Jeff Hiller as these friends. She's from Manhattan, Kansas. She sort of moves away to try to have a whole other life and ends up back in her hometown. And she's trying to kind of figure out what exactly her life is all about. And yeah, she strikes up this friendship and it's just a beautiful story about family and chosen family and friendship. Do not let me corner you at a party and get on the subject of the TV show Somebody Somewhere.

[B]

Yeah, it's a wonderful show and always surprising. I love it too.

[A]

Absolutely.

[C]

All right.

[A]

What's another show that one of our listeners is suggesting people should definitely check out? Okay.

[B]

Eric says andor because it's perfect. 10 out of 10, no notes. Eric, I need you to get in touch because I have heard this from so many people. Diego Luna is in it. It's a great show. I think it costs something like $10 million an episode or something.

[A]

Holy smokes.

[B]

But every time I try to watch the pilot, I fall asleep. I've tried, like now.

[A]

Also, the question is when are you watching it? Are you putting this on at 10pm which for people like you and I is pretty late.

[B]

Yeah. At like 10 or 11pm After I've had a cocktail, which might have something to do with it.

[A]

Yeah. My problem is I've really lost the thread on the. I guess we'll call it Star Wars Universe.

[D]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

I mean, I'm a kid named Luke who grew up in the 80s, so you can imagine I was very there for it when it was like three movies. But I've been hearing good things about andor too, so I'll check it out. Okay. One more TV show that one of our listeners thinks is mandatory viewing.

[B]

I feel like this is a hot take from Talia.

[C]

Oh.

[B]

Though people look down on it, the Real Housewives franchise should be mandatory viewing because we follow a semi ignored demographic, middle aged to older women throughout the country. We see them go from housewives to businesswomen. We often see people finding their autonomy as a result of the success of the show.

[A]

Yeah. You'd be shocked at how many people I know who are, you know, respected writers and thinkers and people who are held in high esteem who will tell me, and this is not even a quote unquote guilty pleasure. They'll just say no. Some of the best television out there are these Real Housewife shows.

[B]

What I hear is that Salt Lake is like, can't miss.

[A]

I met one of the Salt Lake City Real Housewives recently when I was in Salt Lake City.

[B]

Did she throw a drink at you?

[A]

She didn't. She was incredibly nice, which was really kind of off brand. She was very kind. We were there doing. Wait, wait, don't tell me. And she was the special guest and she was a big fan of public radio and very, very nice to be around. And again, I, I felt like I wasn't getting the full housewife experience, but it was still pretty cool.

[B]

That's awesome.

[A]

All right, thank you to everyone who submitted an answer to our audience question this week. This is livewire. Our next guest is a filmmaker whose latest documentary took 21 years to complete. It's called Sabbath Queen and it follows the life of Rabbi Amichai Lau Levay, who is a descendant in a line of 38 orthodox rabbi, but he has kind of gone his own way. He founded this experimental congregation which he describes as God optional. He expresses himself through drag and he chooses to officiate weddings of Jews and non Jews, which in his world is a very, very big deal. It turns out filmmaker Sandy Dabowski joined us for a special conversation after we screened the movie earlier this year. This was at Pam Cutts Tomorrow theater in Portland, Oregon. Take a listen to this. Sandy Dabowski, welcome to Livewire.

[D]

Thank you.

[A]

Let's talk about the subject of the film. The rabbi Amichai Alau Levi. What was it about him that first caught your attention?

[D]

So I did a film called Trembling Before God, which was about Hasidic and Orthodox Jews that are lesbian or gay. Ah, okay. So I went to Jerusalem in the late 90s and was looking for people to be in the film. And everyone kept saying, well, the chief rabbi of Israel's nephew is gay. You should meet him. So I asked him to be in the film and he refused because he's too much of a diva and he wanted his own movie. He said. He actually said, I don't do collage. So, yeah, I mean, in all fairness, Trembling was so much about the struggle to belong within the bounds of Orthodoxy. And he was already like, smashing the box. But we just became friends and developed a deep trust and an intimacy. And five years later, we began filming.

[A]

And he comes from, like you said, a long line. Was it three? 38 rabbis?

[D]

Generations of rabbis.

[A]

Generations of rabbis. And how would you describe their general persuasion in terms of Conservative Orthodox? Where were they on the spectrum?

[D]

Well, I do call them the Kennedys of Judaism. This is in a thousand year dynasty, and I don't know many people who come from a dynasty, but this is a very traditional, quite conservative Orthodox dynasty. Amichai is the first queer one, as far as we know, to emerge from this thousand years.

[A]

His brother is a very well established and well respected rabbi on his own in Israel. And I felt like watching the film, I was witnessing him kind of go on a journey himself around his brother's humanity and his brother's queerness. Were you observing that as a filmmaker?

[D]

Well, I waited 13 years to ask the brother to be in the film. Only when he showed up at Amichai's ordination at the seminary, at a liberal seminary, which many Orthodox family members, for someone like that would have boycotted. But he showed up. And I think there's something about, in this family about what does it mean to show up? What does it mean to commit to difficult dialogue, you know, to not necessarily agree. And we're in such polarized, toxic times that that act of committing to discomfort and disagreement for me is so powerful and so necessary and so. Yes. So I admire this family, the brother to brother relationship. They're role models for me. And there's something in there, there's some ingredient about how we stretch. What does it mean to stretch? And we need that now. So it's been very inspiring.

[A]

This is Livewire Radio. We're talking to Sandy Debowski about his film Sabbath Queen. What was your upbringing like? Where did you grow up? What was the environment?

[D]

I say that I'm from deep coastal Brooklyn, and my family made chocolate syrup. It's a family business that my grandparents, my father and I was freed to not make chocolate syrup, but to make films. But, you know, I grew up pretty much in a kind of all Jewish neighborhood in Brooklyn. You know, definitely have gone on a real searching and seeking path in my own Judaism. And Amichai was a real portal, you know, for me to kind of reimagine how we remake tradition, how we create design rituals that really fit our 21st century lives. So Amichai allowed me to grow in different ways. He actually officiated my interfaith queer wedding with my husband. But Amichai also buried my father, and he comforted my family in a year of mourning. So there's a lot of layers of relationship here of, you know, friends of protagonist and director, of rabbi and congregant. I mean, this is a very rare, multi layered relationship in the filming.

[A]

It seems that the central tension of this film really is this question of interfaith marriage. I mean, there are a lot of questions, but that seems to be the primary one and the one that really gets Amichai in a certain amount of hot water. A marriage between two men, them being gay men, did not seem to be the primary issue, is that one of them was not Jewish. Why do you think that is seen as such an existential threat to certain Jews?

[D]

I think it's intergenerational trauma. I think that's part of it. You know, there were times in which that was really threatening and there was a lot of danger and violence. And I think we're still in a very charged time right now about what are our boundaries, I think in the world, in the U.S. you know, in the Jewish world. So it feels like there's something elemental there. But the reality is that 72% of American Jews who are liberal, not orthodox, are in love relationships with non Jews. Like, that's not our parents Judaism. That's not our grandparents Judaism. That's not the Judaism of so many people. I know. So there's something that is this line in the sand, but it's actually not the reality of so many people, including me.

[A]

Well, and I think it might be Amichai saying that what this now includes, when you have people marrying folks who aren't Jewish is you have an expansion in a way of the world of Judaism and people who I think he describes as being Jewish, you know. And do you see that as an expansion of the possibility?

[D]

Yeah, I mean, we have in the film, we have, you know, a Hindu Jewish couple, we have a Muslim Jewish couple. Like, I really believe we're in a time of sacred hybridity. You know, we're in a time where there's so much possibilities of love. We need to lean into love. We need love to drive our world. Like, we're so fear based right now. We need to lean into love. And I mean, taking this film around the world as I have over the past 10 months, and looking at the immense, beautiful creativity of Jews and those who love us, and it's just astounding to me, you know, And I'm just watching all of these incredible communities and relationships and solidarity and, you know, I just feel like this is a time that we should aspire to.

[A]

The issue of Gaza comes up in the film and Amichai is very strong in his opinion that there needs to be a ceasefire. Do you have concern about that message being in the film? Because it might cause certain people, particularly certain Jews, to reject the idea of the film because that's such a fundamental issue for them.

[D]

So the reality is that we've had Jewish film festivals reject the movie because of, you know, Amichai's stance and how we portray it in the film. He's very clear, you know, he has pain with his Israeli family, you know, but at the same time, he is critical, you know, of the Israeli government and right now, the occupation and the war. And so I feel like it's very honest to Amichai's stance. And we really went back and forth after October 7th to really grapple with how to tell it in the film because, you know, every image and every word in this film is a minefield. So we were constantly crafting and spent six years really being incredibly thoughtful about every single minute of this film. So the end where we talk about Gaza is part of that Now. I've had people come to me and say thank you for the section on Gaza because it really reflects my beliefs and my values about what we as Jews need to say right now and what our. What we. What our stance should be. I do have people who come and say, I love the film, I hate the last two minutes. But I also have people who just now have told me, I love the film, I hate the last two minutes. But I'm still recommending it to all my friends. Yes. And that means sitting in discomfort and sitting in the ability to hold the both. And I think we need that.

[A]

That sounds like something that you were saying earlier in the interview you admire about Amakai's family, that they, even if they don't agree on things, they have a framework for sitting in that discomfort. Yeah.

[D]

And look, it's such an interesting family. You know, you have this gay brother who you know is such a renegade and so radical. But look at the effect. Look at what he's done to his Orthodox rabbi brother. You know, Amichai changed Rabbi Benny. Queer people change people. You know, that's what we do. Like, we come from that place of the margin and we have power, you know, to shape the world. And I think what's so amazing is that this just happened, but Rabbi Benny's daughter Orly just announced that she's gonna become a rabbi. So she's the first female in this 1000 year dynasty to step into the rabbinate. So. Yeah. So Amichai's like, I'm old news. She's a new radical.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Will she be part of a collage or is she gonna get her own film as well?

[D]

Sequel.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, it's a really moving film. Congratulations, Sandy Dabowski. Thanks for being on Livewire.

[D]

Thank you. Thank you. Thanks, Luke.

[A]

That was Sandy Dubowski recorded at the Tomorrow Theater in Portland, Oregon. You can check out future screenings of Sabbath Queen all across the country by going to the website Sabbath Queen. All right, we gotta take a very quick break, but stay where you are because when we return, the bluegrass duo, the Lowest Pair, is gonna play us a song so amazing, Elena, they once played it on repeat for 45 minutes straight. All will be explained in a moment here on Livewire. Welcome back to Livewire from prx. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. Okay, before we get to this week's musical performance from the Lowest Pair, a little preview of next week's show. We are going to be talking about the 90s. Remember those Elena CDs? Dial up Internet. Pauly Shore. Wheezing the Juice.

[B]

Pauly Shore.

[A]

It turns out that the 90s are also the subject of Chuck Klosterman's book, which is titled the 90s. It was an instant New York Times bestseller. He deep dives into why the 90s actually really was kind of a big deal and really mattered in a lot of important ways in terms of the pop culture. We've also got a very special musical appearance from the international rock band. They're called Making movies, which absolutely blew our live audience away. And you're gonna want to hear it on the radio coming up next week here on Livewire. This, of course, is Livewire. Now, from the banks of the Mississippi to stages across North America, our musical guest this week blends clawhammer banjo with punk spirit folk. Alley describes them as one of those duos where the music sounds like it somehow came from one body. Those bodies belong to Kendall Winter and Palmer T. Lee. They've released seven albums together, including Horse Camp, which no Depression magazine describes as a rich soundscape that propels the modern and traditional into the future of folk music. Well, the future is now, everybody, because the lowest pair joined us at a special pop up event at Kiln, this very cool co working space in Portland, Oregon. We recorded this this summer at Kiln. Take a listen. Now, I've been told through some back channels that the first song that we're gonna hear there was an experience where you played it at a festival, a certain kind of festival.

[C]

It was a farmer's market.

[A]

Okay. It was a farmer's market.

[F]

A medical marijuana farmers market.

[A]

Okay. Right. And things got, like, got a little on top of you. What happened?

[F]

Well, it was one of our very first opportunities to play. We got. Palmer was from Minnesota, and he came out to visit me in Olympia, Washington. And we got invited to play at a medical marijuana farmers market. And there were quite a few vendors with samples.

[A]

And you were having back pain, you.

[F]

Know, to be polite. It's strictly medical back pain. Yeah. Suddenly our back started hurting. Yeah, really bad. And so to be polite, we sampled a bit. And then Palmer looked at me and said, I have forgotten all of our songs. And I said, I too have forgotten all of our songs. Let's get out of here.

[A]

Did you end up playing?

[F]

Well, we got to the car and I said, well, Palmer, can you drive? And he said, I can't drive.

[A]

No, there's no way. Don't do it.

[F]

And I said, I'm not driving. And so we went back and we played this next song for like 45 minutes.

[A]

All right, we'll take the abbreviated version. This is the lowest pair here on livewire.

[E]

That I never was born or died when I was young, pretty one or died when I was young. Then I never would have kissed your red ruby lips or heard your lion company Heard your lies in tongue. But now I fall on my knees. Beg of you, please, won't you come and stand by me?

[A]

Everyone.

[E]

Come and stand by me. You see, you told me one, then you told me two girl you told me 10,000 lies, pretty one, you told me 10,000 lies yeah, you told me more lies and there are clouds in the sky now you'll never get to heaven when you die, pretty one, never to get to heaven when you die oh but I fall on my knees, beg of you please won't you come and see Stand by me Anyone come and stand by me. And now my suitcase is packed I ain't never coming back and it's goodbye little lover, I'm going pretty one, Goodbye little lover, I'm gone you see there's more than one, there's more than two. A daring mother lover like you Anyone no other lover like you.

[A]

So.

[E]

My knees beg of you please won't you come and stand by me? Anyone come and stand by me. Come and stand by me.

[A]

That was the Lowest Pair recorded live at Kiln in Portland, Oregon. Their latest album, Horse Camp is available right now and that is going to do it for this week's episode of Livewire. A huge thanks to our guests Sam Sanders, Sandy Debowski and the Lowest Pair. Also special thanks to Roger Meyer and the fine folks at Kiln and Pam Cut Tomorrow Theater, especially Katie Jenkins and Erica Oglesby.

[B]

Lara Haddon is our Executive producer, Heather D. Michelle is our executive director and our producer and editor is Melanie Savchenko. Azik Bin Ahmad Farid is our assistant editor. Our house sound is by Dee Neil Blake and Eben Hoffer is our technical director. Support this episode comes from Nest Roister.

[A]

Beja Pauliekonda is our production fellow. Welcome to the show, by the way. Our house band is Ethan Fox Tucker, Sam Tucker, Sam Pinkerton, Eyal Alves, Ben Grace and A. Walker Spring, who also composes our music. This episode was mixed by Eben Hoffer and Hazik Bin Ahmad Fareed.

[B]

Additional funding provided by the City of Portland's Office of Arts and Culture. Livewire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokolov. This week we'd like to thank member Kaliyah Bush of Eagle Creek, Oregon and Elena Vasquez of Portland, Oregon.

[A]

For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast, visit livewireradio.org I'm Luke Burbank for Elena Passarello and the whole Livewire team. Thanks for listening and we will see you next week.

[G]

This show is supported by Odoo. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out odoo-o o.com that's o d o o.com.

[A]

Dear LiveWire, when we first met, I was really shy. I had no idea we'd spend so much time together or that you'd be one to fill my heart with joy and make me want to be a better person. Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know you were here. I was busy reading a review from one of our many, many rapturously smitten listeners. Oh, wait. Actually, no. Sorry. This is from Elena. Anyway, the point is, it would be really helpful if you wanted to leave us a review. Feel free to say really nice things about us and we'll even read them now and then on the show so you might hear your review of the Livewire read on the program itself. Reviews help other people hear about the show, and then we can keep doing this for a long, long time because we love having this job. Thank you so much. If you've left a review, and if you're about to leave a review, you can go ahead and do it right where you get the podcast.

[B]

From PRX.