Susan Orlean and David Ramirez

Summary

Live Wire with Luke Burbank
Episode: Susan Orlean and David Ramirez
Date: December 19, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Live Wire, host Luke Burbank sits down with acclaimed writer Susan Orlean—staff writer for The New Yorker and bestselling author of The Orchid Thief, among others—for an in-depth conversation about her new memoir, Joyride. Orlean discusses her creative process, reflections on her storied career, and how she finds and shapes the stories that have captivated readers for decades. The episode also features a live musical performance from Austin-based singer-songwriter David Ramirez, and some lighthearted audience interaction around memoir titles.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Susan Orlean: Beginnings and Early Career (12:09–16:35)

• On Childhood and Why She Writes

  • Orlean describes herself as a curious child who believed in the "magical power of writing things down" (12:36).
  • She would meticulously document family vacations, feeling that "if I wrote it down, it felt like I could keep it forever" (12:58).

• Portland Origins

  • Orlean sparked her writing career in Portland, following her boyfriend and starting out at a small magazine before moving to Willamette Week.
  • She confesses to learning journalism on the job: “I took no journalism courses in college...I just threw myself in and learned on the job” (13:31).

• Formative Advice from a Mentor

  • Her editor at Willamette Week, Ron Buell, outlined three phases of nonfiction writing: reporting/research, thinking, and writing (14:38).
  • She emphasizes the importance of the ‘thinking’ phase, admitting that with book projects she’ll open an empty Word doc titled “New Book”—a psychological trick to soothe her nerves about daunting research (15:38).

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Craft and Approach to Storytelling (18:59–24:27)

• Linear Writing Process

  • Orlean approaches her writing like oral storytelling: “You start at the beginning, you then go to the next part. And it's very connected in a way that's organic” (19:06).
  • She aims to internalize her stories so she could recite them aloud, creating a natural narrative flow (19:25).

• Musicality of Prose

  • Orlean likens her writing’s rhythm and pacing to music: “The pacing is really important, the tempo...it feels very musical” (20:23).

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“The American Man at Age 10”: Rejecting Celebrity for the Ordinary (20:44–24:43)

• Turning Down Macaulay Culkin for a Regular Kid

  • When assigned by Esquire to capture the “American man at age 10,” Orlean famously declined the offer to profile Macaulay Culkin, instead pitching “an ordinary 10-year-old boy” named Colin Duffy (21:23).
  • On her motivation: “But he [Culkin] doesn’t represent the American man at age 10… How about if I just write about an ordinary 10-year-old boy” (21:28).
  • The initial interactions with Colin were awkward, but gradually warmed as his friends showed interest.

• Recurring Self-Doubt

  • Orlean confides that with every story: “This was a terrible mistake and will be the end of Susan Orlean’s career” (23:49). This recurrent anxiety is a creative motif for her.

• On the Limitations of Celebrity Profiles

  • “There’s almost nothing less illuminating than the celebrity profile…you get this very bland interview with them” (24:04).
  • She recounts an anecdote with Tom Hanks, where he tells multiple journalists the 'same deep secret,' proving the illusion of intimacy in celebrity coverage (25:54).

Memorable Quote:
“Even if you become convinced…you’re the one who really connected…turns out everyone gets the same ‘exclusive’ quote.”
—Susan Orlean (26:29)

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Book Projects and Adventures in Reporting (27:35–39:48)

• Saturday Night: A National Portrait

  • Orlean’s first book was an ambitious attempt to paint a panorama of what Americans do on Saturday night. She wanted to “[create] this kind of snapshot of Saturday night in a wide range of places and circumstances around the country” (29:01).
  • The project ranged from Portland lounge bands to Maryland polka parlors, exploring “why is it that we want Saturday night to be different?” (30:08).
  • She spent years with “strangers” every Saturday, noting, “I realized that I had committed to spending my Saturday nights for like five years, working, essentially, with strangers” (31:37).

• The Birth of The Orchid Thief

  • The now-classic book started serendipitously when Orlean, out of reading material on a flight, read a Miami Herald article: “Local Nurseryman. Crew of Seminoles Arrested in Swamp with Rare Orchids...I’m in. I don’t understand a single word of this headline” (32:09).
  • Her dislike of Florida, orchids, and swamps ironically drew her deeper into the story, first as a New Yorker article, then a full book.

• From Book to Wild Film: ‘Adaptation’

  • The narrative becomes surreal when her book is adapted—very loosely—into the film Adaptation, with Meryl Streep playing a fictionalized Susan Orlean: “There I am as a character…having an affair with John Laroche, the orchid thief, being a drug maniac, killing a Fish and Wildlife officer. You know, just a few differences” (36:18, 03:13).
  • She initially balked at having her real name used, but acquiesced after producers threatened to credit someone else for the book within the film (37:20).
  • Seeing Meryl Streep announce “Hi, I’m Susan Orlean,” on screen was “an out of body experience” (38:52).

Memorable Moment/Quote:
“I’m signing the paper just thinking, yeah, like, all in a day’s work. This is completely crazy.”
—Susan Orlean on agreeing to the film’s wild fictionalization (37:20)

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On Memoir, Reflection, and Storytelling (39:48–42:09)

• Why Write a Memoir Now?
  • Orlean never intended to write a memoir, but during the pandemic—and upon realizing that The Orchid Thief turned 25—the impulse surfaced: “I had to sort of lead you to the point where this young writer had the nerve to say, no, I don’t want to profile Macaulay Culkin. So who was that person?” (41:09).
  • She sees her story as universal: “An eternal story about our need to tell each other stories and to hear each other’s stories. And that won’t ever change” (41:59).

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Audience Interaction: Memoir Titles (45:20–48:21)

• Elena and Luke ask the audience: "What would the title of your memoir be?" (45:20)
  • Suggestions include:
    • "How to Overthink Everything: A Memoir in Three Volumes (or Should it be Four?)"
    • "Why I'm Like This"
    • "My therapist thinks this title is too long, but I disagree: A Memoir"
    • "Colon: Colon. A Memoir of IBS" (riffing on the prevalence of colons in memoir subtitles)

Memorable Banter:

• Elena: “I have always wanted to call mine ‘Tis Pity She’s a Ham,’ which is both pretentious and obnoxious…” (45:53)

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Musical Performance: David Ramirez (51:30–55:21)

• Austin songwriter David Ramirez performs “Put in the Work, Put in the Time,” a rootsy meditation on perseverance.
• Ramirez’s style is praised by NPR as “the ever moody innovator of Americana” (50:45).
• The song’s message: “If you’re just wishing, you ain’t pitching strikes…Put in the work, put in the time” (53:44–55:21).

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• "Every piece of nonfiction writing has three distinct phases: reporting, thinking, and writing." –Susan Orlean, on writing advice from her editor (14:38)
• “You start at the beginning…it's very connected in a way that's organic.” –Susan Orlean, on storytelling structure (19:06)
• “I just sort of blurted out, how about if I just write about an ordinary 10-year-old boy...” (21:28)
• “I get back to my office…my office mate said, ‘Let me guess. That he always thought he was ugly.’” – Susan Orlean, on the Tom Hanks profile (26:29)
• “One common denominator…is that Saturday night still feels different from the rest of the week…” (29:10)
• “There I am as a character…having an affair with John Laroche, the orchid thief, being a drug maniac, killing a Fish and Wildlife officer. You know, just a few differences.” –Susan Orlean, on Adaptation (37:19, also 03:13)
• “I truly believe that the story I’m telling is an eternal story about our need to tell each other stories…” (41:59)
• “Put in the work, put in the time.” –David Ramirez, song lyric (53:44–55:21)

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Episode Flow Outline

• [03:02] – Show proper begins; Susan Orlean’s humorous reaction to her fictionalized movie version (03:13)
• [11:21] – Luke introduces Susan Orlean, background on career
• [12:09] – Susan Orlean interview: formative years and writing process
• [18:59] – Orlean’s approach to story structure
• [20:23] – Esquire “American Man at Age 10” story
• [24:04] – On the futility of most celebrity profiles; Tom Hanks anecdote
• [27:35] – “Saturday Night” book project
• [32:09] – The Orchid Thief origin story
• [36:18]/[03:13] – Living through Adaptation’s wild Hollywood retelling
• [39:48] – Why Joyride became a memoir
• [45:20] – Audience memoir titles, show banter
• [51:30] – David Ramirez live performance

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Conclusion

This episode provides a vibrant, deeply personal look into Susan Orlean’s career, philosophy of storytelling, and willingness to embrace serendipity and take creative risks—set off by wit, warmth, and self-effacing humor. The conversation ranges from the mechanics of narrative nonfiction, to industry anecdotes, to the strangeness of seeing oneself fictionalized in film. The musical segment and audience interaction keep the hour lively and engaging, making it a rewarding listen for fans of great stories and thoughtful craft alike.

Transcript

[Luke Burbank]

Hey there. Welcome to Livewire. I'm your host, Luke Burbank. All right, this week on the show, we are doing something special. We're having an in depth conversation with the legendary writer Susan Orlean from the New Yorker and from many magazine articles and books. She's got a new memoir out. It's called Joyride, and it's about her career in writing and how she chooses the stories that she does and how she manages to tease out all those interesting details. And we'll find out why she spent every Saturday night of her life for many years hanging out with complete strangers. This is for a book project. And also that time that Tom Hanks told her something that she thought gave her a very special interview. And in fact, it wasn't as special as she was thinking. Plus, we'll hear about her book the Orchid Thief, which turned into the movie adaptation, which had very little to do with the book the Orchid Thief. Plus, we've got music from Austin's own David Ramirez. Going to be a great hour of Livewire. Stay with us. It gets started right after this. I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and on the new season of Heavyweight. And so I pointed the gun at.

[David Ramirez]

Him and said, this isn't a joke.

[Luke Burbank]

A man who robbed a bank when he was 14 years old and a centenarian rediscovers a love lost 80 years ago.

[Susan Orlean]

How can 101-year-old woman fall in love again?

[Luke Burbank]

Listen to Heavy wherever you get your podcasts.

[Anna Lynn Guzik]

I'm Anna Lynn Guzik, founder of the Anti Nihilist foundation, publisher of the Conversationalist. For years, the Conversationalist has been a home for stories about reproductive rights, climate change, LGBTQ rights, labor identity, friendship, motherhood, and foreign policy. Stories that don't get told enough or told honestly enough in a media landscape dominated by corporate interests. Now we're bringing those stories and voices directly to you with season two of the Conversationalist podcast. We're truly independent, nonprofit media. No overlords, no corporate agenda, just stories that matter. This is journalism as conversation. This is storytelling as resistance. This is the Conversationalist podcast. Subscribe now wherever you get your podcasts.

[Odoo Sponsor Announcer]

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[Elena Passarello]

It's LiveWire. This week, writer Susan Orlean.

[Susan Orlean]

There I am as a character which I never imagined, in different, somewhat compromising positions, having an affair with John Laroche, the orchid thief, being a drug maniac, killing a fish and wildlife officer. You know, just a few differences. Just a few.

[Elena Passarello]

With music from David Ramirez and our fabulous house band, I'm your announcer, Elena Passarello. And now the host of Livewire, Luke Burbank.

[Luke Burbank]

Hey, thank you so much, Elena Passarello. Thanks to everyone for tuning in from all over America. We have a great show in store for you. This week. We're trying something a little unusual. Most of the show will be dedicated to a chat with the great writer Susan Orlean. And then we've got some great music coming up from David Ramirez as well. First, though, something very usual for us, which is we gotta kick things off with the best news we heard all week. This is our little reminder at the top of the show that there is good news happening out there in the world. You just gotta look for it. And we did, and we found some. Alaina, what is the best news you heard all week?

[Elena Passarello]

Oh, get ready, Luke Burbank. This is a good one. So in 2022, a widow named Marlene, who's 75 years old, met a widower named Edward, who is 80. They did not meet at a bar. They did not meet on Hinge or any of those dating apps. Guess where they met?

[Luke Burbank]

They met at a square dance.

[Elena Passarello]

They met at a water aerobics class at a YMCA in Maryville, Illinois. I hear that Edward is a little bit of a. A prankster. He's a splasher. And so he was splash most of the classes ladies. He was splashing the other ladies in the class, and most of them weren't having it, but Marlene, Marlene knows how to party. So she splashed back and they started dating. And when they started dating, the one rule that they had was that they were never going to talk about marriage because they were never getting married again. And they started doing a whole bunch of things that they enjoyed together, like making soup and doing word puzzles and stealing kisses during water aerobics class.

[Luke Burbank]

Is it Zach qualify as horseplay? Because every pool I've ever been to, there's a big sign that says no horseplay.

[Elena Passarello]

That, yeah, that's my favorite kind of horseplay, honestly. Smoochie horseplay. Well, one thing led to another and they fell in Love. And Edward ended up proposing, even though they had that marriage is off the table clause. And she accepted. And lo and behold, they Learned that their 54 year old YMCA water aerobics instructor was. Was an ordained minister. So these two lovebirds, they're waterfowl, I suppose. Lovebirds. They staged their wedding 15 minutes before their water aerobics class at the YMCA. The bride wore like a white shirt and white swim trunks with a white tutu. The groom wore a top hat and some kind of neoprene tuxedo T shirt variation. The bride threw her bouquet into the water. Their vows were laminated.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, my gosh.

[Elena Passarello]

And she vowed that she would maybe make him dinner occasionally. And he vowed that he would sometimes give her a remote. So it was a wonderfully irreverent affair. And then they splashed each other. And then they had to stop the wedding because it was time for water aerobics class to start.

[Susan Orlean]

And then.

[Elena Passarello]

Oh, and while they got married, all the other women that were in the water aerobics class circled around them and did like a water ballet. Like a synchronized swimming.

[Luke Burbank]

Like some. Like an Esther Williams.

[Elena Passarello]

Yes, it was like an Esther Williams chuppah.

[Luke Burbank]

I love it.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah. So I got married five years ago. My husband and I got married by an Elvis minister. And I was looking for a vowel renewal option. And I have a feeling, you know, when I'm 80 and he's 90 or whatever, like this is what we're going to do.

[Luke Burbank]

I mean, not to mention just the physical benefit of it. Doing the water aerobics, like, you know, you're setting yourself up for an additional decade of good health together. Speaking of physical fitness, Elena, the best news that I heard comes out of Washington D.C. where folks just finished a 50k race, an ultra marathon. My question to you is, could you run 50 kilometers, which is I guess roughly 32 miles? What would it take to get you running 32 miles?

[Elena Passarello]

A long chase and a surrogate runner.

[Luke Burbank]

Okay, so you wouldn't be able to do it?

[Elena Passarello]

No.

[Luke Burbank]

What if I told you that. That you could eat Taco Bell throughout the ultramarathon? Because this, my friend, was the taco bell DC 50k. Wow. You look actually less intrigued by the project.

[Elena Passarello]

It just sounds like it would really mar the operation a little bit.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, that is a consideration that these folks were making. They just did this the other weekend. It's a 32 mile race, but the rules of it are during the 32 miles, you've got to hit nine Taco Bells, which were scattered across Alexandria, and, and Arlington, Virginia, and then other ones around the District of Columbia. You had to purchase and eat an item off of the menu at each location. And by the way, drinks did not count.

[Elena Passarello]

Oh, that was my first thought.

[Luke Burbank]

They've already thought ahead. And they also have some rules about what you have to have at least one of by the fourth Taco Bell stop, because I don't want you to just like, I don't know, getting like a small taco or something at each stop. By the fourth Taco Bell stop, you would have to have eaten a Chalupa supreme or a Crunchwrap Supreme. And by the eighth stop, you would have had to eaten a burrito supreme or a Nachos Bell Grande.

[Elena Passarello]

Did they all die? Is this just a story of a murder?

[Luke Burbank]

Many survived and finished and in fact, even thrived. See, this speaks to how much Taco Bell I ate, particularly in college, particularly after drinking a lot, because this sounds like an average Saturday night after the bars to me. But everybody who was running the race was as they would get to the Taco Bell.

[David Ramirez]

It was.

[Luke Burbank]

And the reporters would be talking to them. They would all be kind of complaining about how hard it actually was to eat all of this Taco Bell food while running. I actually like this guy's approach. A guy named Ryan Stern was involved, by the way. He had 11 hours to finish this race. And you had to bring receipts. You had to bring receipts of the Taco Bell food that you had purchased at Eaton that day.

[Elena Passarello]

So you're running with a bunch of receipts in your pocket.

[Luke Burbank]

Add it to the list of the indignities of this race. Ryan Stern was interviewed who described himself as a chaos monkey. He said, I like eating Taco Bell. I do not run at all, but I can walk for 11 hours. I'm gonna finish because it's funny and no one believes I'm going to finish and I'm going to finish. Oh, I like that approach.

[Elena Passarello]

30 miles in 11 hours, 32 miles.

[Luke Burbank]

In 11 hours, and nine Taco Bells. The winner was Mike Smith, age 43. He did the race in 4 hours, 12 minutes and 35 seconds. When he finished, they asked him what his secret was. He said, I have an iron stomach.

[Susan Orlean]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, you do. They said, what is your practice routine? He said, every day after work, I down a happy hour beer. Then I go running. So this was a race that really called upon a special set of skills, I think, beyond just being fast. So shout out to Mike Smith and the other 429 finishers what at the. Yeah, you're Right, Alaina. The more that I told you about the story, the more crazy it sounded to me, surviving this very questionable race. That is the best news that I heard all week.

[David Ramirez]

Best news.

[Luke Burbank]

You're listening to livewire. Our first guest is truly one of America's great nonfiction writers. Over her storied career, which actually started here in Portland at the Willamette Week, she has managed to turn over like small corners of everyday life and just find the huge richness of experience happening there. She's a staff writer at the New Yorker who's also been portrayed by Meryl Streep in the movie adaptation, which is based loosely, like, very loosely. More on that coming up on her book, the Orchid Thief. Her latest work is Joy, A Memoir. And it really is a joyride to read. This is our chat with Susan Orlean. We recorded this as part of the Portland Book Festival live from the Heathman Hotel in Portland, Oregon. Take a listen.

[Susan Orlean]

I'm so excited to be here.

[Luke Burbank]

That means a lot coming from you because I have been reading your articles and your books for years and so I have a few feeling that I kind of know a little bit about you. But this book Joyride is really a sort of new view into your life and your growing up years and everything. You grew up in Shaker Heights, in Cleveland.

[Susan Orlean]

Yes, suburb of Cleveland.

[Luke Burbank]

What kind of kid were you? And is there a particular kind of kid who makes a good writer?

[Susan Orlean]

I was a curious kid and I really believed in the magical power of writing things down. And I wrote the story of all my family trips. I felt that there was a magical power in taking an experience, recording it in writing, and that it meant that it could live forever. So even the family trip ended. And that was always very poignant for me. When I was a kid, I loved being on our family vacations. But if I wrote it down, it felt like I could keep it forever.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, Portland is a very big character in this book because I did not realize this, but you got your start at the Willamette Week here in Portland. Like you drove from Michigan to Portland and started writing for a weekly out here.

[Susan Orlean]

Yes. Well, with a brief stopover as a waitress, I should say. I came out to Portland right after I graduated from college. I did a lot of analysis trying to think what would be the perfect place to begin my career as a writer, which basically is a way of saying my boyfriend was moving out here and I followed him. And to my great fortune, there was a little tiny magazine starting up in Portland at the time. And I had never done nonfiction writing, but I wanted to do it passionately. I knew it's what I wanted to do, so I just threw myself in and learned on the job. And then that magazine had funding for about a year, and when it ended, I ended up with Willamette Week.

[Luke Burbank]

But you write in this book that you learned three kind of really important concepts about reporting from your editor at the Willamette Week.

[Susan Orlean]

Yeah. And I'm being very honest when I say that I began my career as a writer by doing it on the job. I didn't go to journalism school. I took no journalism courses in college. But Ron Buell, who was the editor of the paper at the time, was a wonderful mentor, and. And he gave us this sort of axiom that I still live by, which was, every piece of nonfiction writing has three distinct phases. The first one is reporting, research, however you want to describe it. The second one is thinking, and the third one is writing. And what was revelatory was the idea that there was a part of the process where you just sat and thought and you didn't instantly start writing, that the process of writing should emerge as the result of you thinking through what you had learned and why you were writing it. But also, it made me realize, and to this day, live by the idea that I do all my reporting before I write. And that can be scary. For instance, when I've written books, I will begin the research, and the research can take years. Well, what I do to help with the terror that this induces is I always go to Microsoft Word and open a new document and title it New Book. So there's nothing in it, but I do have a file that's huge. So when my editor says, how's it going? I can open that file and go, you know, pretty good, actually.

[Luke Burbank]

This is Livewire from prx. We are talking to the writer Susan Orlean about her memoir, Joy Ride. We've got to take a very quick break, but don't go anywhere. When we come back, Susan will talk about what it was like to have herself portrayed by Meryl Streep in the film adaptation, which was loosely based on her book, the Orchid Thief. And also how she was worried Susan was that she might come off as a lunatic, which you'll understand if you've ever seen that movie. Anyway, much more with Susan Orlean coming up in a moment. Stay tuned to livewire. Look, I'm not saying that I have a coffee problem, but I am definitely telling you that I am reaching for yet another cup of coffee. And if you know exactly Where I'm coming from. Let me tell you about Fetch Coffee Roasters right here in Portland. They're small batch women owned. And here is the kicker. Every bag that you buy sends a dollar to a dog in need. Think about it. Fetch Coffee Roaster. So basically, right now, your coffee addiction, you can consider that to be like philanthropy, which is amazing. They are right now roasting a special blend for Livewire. It's called Get Wired. Plus, they've got their great regular roast lineup like Muddy Paws and Zoomies. And if you want to get 15% off right now, as a Livewire listener, all you gotta do is use code Livewire. This is on your first order. Use the code [e-mail] Fetch coffee wagtails. Welcome back to Livewire from pr your host, Luke Burbank. Here with Elena Passarello. We are talking to the writer Susan Orlean about her memoir, Joyride. This was recorded as part of the Portland Book Festival, recorded at the Heathman Hotel. Let's get back into it. Something else that you talk about in the book is that you write sort of in a linear way. So when you're writing a piece, you kind of start at the beginning. And the lead is very important, the beginning of the story, but you write it in order, which I was surprised by because I could see with someone who writes as much as you do and things that can be as complicated, I could see you breaking it up into chunks and going, this is this section and this section. And then almost the connective tissue is kind of the last part.

[Susan Orlean]

Right.

[Luke Burbank]

There's something very, I think, charming about you going, here's the beginning of the story. Here's the middle of the story. Here's the end of the story.

[Susan Orlean]

But, you know, there's a very particular reason for that. And often I will know that certain chunks are going to appear. But. But I really use as my model the sort of tradition of oral storytelling. And the way you tell a story out loud is you start at the beginning, you then go to the next part. And it's very connected in a way that's organic. I like to believe that I could sit down and tell you the story of my book out loud, you know, even without notes, and just really tell it to you the way I discovered it. And that's what I want the book to feel like.

[Elena Passarello]

There's this awesome scene in Joyride where I guess it's not a scene, but an explanation of that hook for the American man at age 10. The Esquire article and it had me thinking about music. When you work short and when you work with a lot of personality, you've got to show the reader what the song is really early on. So starting early and starting in the beginning, it gives the reader kind of a sense of all the material or the sound that's gonna come.

[Susan Orlean]

Well, I agree 100% and I think often music is very. Informs a lot for me because I do think there's kind of a melody of the way you're writing. The pacing is really important, the tempo, the, you know, it feels very musical.

[Luke Burbank]

Can we also give a little bit of kind of setup for that piece? Because I think it's an amazing story, but also an amazing bit of chutzpah on your part because I believe this is maybe one of your first kind of big assignments, or it's a big assignment for you. Let's just say, like you've come from Portland and now you're out in New York. And is it Esquire that you're writing for? And basically they want to do this series of articles about the American man at different age ranges. And so they said, we're gonna have you write about a 10 year old. And the 10 year old was Macaulay Culkin.

[Susan Orlean]

Yes.

[Luke Burbank]

The most famous 10 year old on the planet at that time. And you said, how about a guy named Colin Duffy who no one's heard of?

[Susan Orlean]

Yes.

[Luke Burbank]

I mean, where did you even get like the cojones for that pitch?

[Susan Orlean]

You know, to this day I can't tell you. I mean, I, I was over the moon that Esquire had called me. I'd never written for them before. And Esquire was like a seriously great magazine. And you know, I'm called into the office and the editor says, you know, well, good news, we'd like to give you an assignment. Macaulay Culkin, you know, he's going to represent the American man at age 10. And I just thought, yeah, no, no, first of all, I thought, you know, I'm just not interested in Macaulay Culkin. Secondly, I thought, but he doesn't represent the American man at age 10. He represents like one other 10 year old actor maybe, right. And I just sort of blurted out, how about if I just write about an ordinary 10 year old boy and.

[Luke Burbank]

Who by the way, didn't seem to like you a ton at first. Throws you out. Yeah, you're like, give me Culkin. At least he'll pretend to like me, believe me.

[Susan Orlean]

I mean, for the first day after I found this kid and he agreed to do it and his parents agreed. I showed up at his house cause my plan was I was gonna spend two weeks going to school with him, hanging out, going on his play dates, you know, just like being a 10 year old boy. I arrived that morning, our first day together, and he shunned me. I think he looked at me and suddenly thought this like grown up lady is going to come with me to school. And he kind of cold shouldered me. So we left to walk to school and he was like 10 paces ahead of me and I'm like shuffling behind him like a geisha. I was like, you know, yes, master. And we got to school and I think the thing that helped was his friends, I think saw me as a really cool show and tell and they were sort of interested in me. And he was a nice kid and I think he could tell that I'm sitting in the little tiny fifth grade chair and feeling like I've blown it, I've ruined my career. I'm.

[Luke Burbank]

You know, you seem to in the book talk about having this feeling at some point during everything you've ever written.

[Susan Orlean]

Yes.

[Luke Burbank]

That this was a terrible mistake and will be the end of Susan Orlean's career.

[Susan Orlean]

Yes. I mean this is like a motif for me. But I sat there thinking what was so wrong with Macaulay Culkin? Like, why?

[Luke Burbank]

Okay, well, one of the things, again, not to blame Macaulay Culkin, but you talk about this in the book and I know this from some of my job stuff. There's almost nothing less illuminating than the celebrity profile because they have these teams of people. In my experience, it's, it's not even so much the celebrity oftentimes it's this coterie of folks around them who are only incentivized to say no.

[Susan Orlean]

Right.

[Luke Burbank]

The only thing that can go wrong is if they say yes and then something bad happens to Macaulay Culkin. So they tend to say no to everything and then you get this very bland interview with them. But you've also done many great celebrity interviews. What are your tips and tricks for kind of breaking through that, you know.

[Susan Orlean]

Celebrity profiles, I sort of make of fun, fun of them in the book because I do the UN celebrity profile as my calling card. But I've done tons of celebrity profiles. I think the most important thing is understanding the mechanism of what's going on. That you need to appreciate that unlike interviewing an ordinary person and in a celebrity profile, everybody's got a stake in it and it's to their advantage to show you X amount of who they are. Even if you become convinced. I'll tell you a funny story, you often become convinced that you're the one who broke through, and you're the one who really connected. So one year, Tom Hanks was promoting a movie, and I got an assignment from Rolling Stone to profile him. Coincidentally, my office mate, who wrote for New York magazine, also got an assignment to profile Tom Hanks. And his wife, who wrote for New York Newsday, also got an assignment.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, gosh.

[Susan Orlean]

And I met with Tom Hanks. And of course, he's an incredibly charming, wonderful guy. And I thought, like, I'm really connecting with him. Like, we are really, you know, like, I'm getting beyond the celebrity profile. And at one point, he said to me, you know, I've gotta tell you something. This sounds weird. I've never told anyone before, but, you know, I always thought I was really ugly. And I thought, oh, my God, I've scored. Like, I really, you know, I've broken through. I'm really getting to the real Tom Hanks. I get back to my office. You know where this is going? Of course. Like, I almost don't even want to tell you, But I come back to my office, and my office mate said, how did your time go with Tom Hanks? And he had already done his interview. I said, well, actually, it was pretty great. So, you know, you can't put this in your story. But he told me something he's never told anyone before. And he said, let me guess. That he always thought he was ugly. And he says, hang on a minute. Let me call my wife. And she gets on the phone.

[Anna Lynn Guzik]

She.

[Susan Orlean]

Says, wait, let me tell you what he told me. That he's never told anyone before, that he always thought he was ugly. And I thought, oh, my God. And I should say, I love Tom Hanks.

[Luke Burbank]

Yes.

[Susan Orlean]

And I'm actually really proud of those pieces. I feel like I acknowledge the part of it that's part of the machinery, but that my observations, my attention to detail is gonna maybe elevate it.

[Luke Burbank]

We're talking to Susan Orlean here on Livewire. Your first book was a truly ambitious concept called Saturday Night, which was about the idea of Saturday night and what are people doing. I mean, how do you tackle a topic like that?

[Susan Orlean]

Well, this whole thing. This is my first book, as you said. And writing a book is a big leap from writing a magazine story. I had been pitching a story that. A book idea that was very book idea ish, namely to follow a couple people training for the Iron man, which was new at the time. And I met with a publisher who said, you know, I really love your work. I love the idea of working with you, but is this the book you really want to do? And I said, absolutely not. I want to do a book about Saturday night in America. Again, you might think I have a little problem with impulsiveness in high level meetings, but I didn't really want to do a book about the Iron Man. And I blurted out, I want to do a book about Saturday night in America. And she said, I love it. Great. I'll send a contract in the morning. Then I spent about two years thinking, what did I mean when I said that? Literally, what did I mean? But I knew what the heart of it was, which was, I think that there are very few common denominators in American life. And one common denominator, whether you're old or young or rich or poor, working, not working, is that Saturday night still feels different from the rest of the week, even no matter where you are. So what I wanted to do was create this kind of snapshot of Saturday night in a wide range of places and circumstances around the country. I ended up with about 18. Everything from hanging out with a lounge band in Portland, going to a Park Avenue dinner party, hanging out with a babysitter in the suburbs, going to a polka parlor in Maryland, going to the biggest restaurant in the United States and hanging out with the waitresses and waiters there. Really trying to create this sort of time lapse photo of America on Saturday night. And also talking about, why is it. Why do we want Saturday night to be different? What is it that has made this idea that one night feels a little different?

[Luke Burbank]

Right. But the not being out on Saturday night still feels like a thing.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah.

[Susan Orlean]

Right. Like you're making a specific decision. We're not going out. Whereas on a Tuesday, it's just Tuesday. So it was also really fascinating to write about the whole meaning of time and the calendar and how it used to be that people took one bath a week. You know, when people didn't have baths in their own home. Saturday night was you would take a bath for Saturday night. It was really fun. It was really hard. I was cobbling together a book that was quite unlike any book that I could look to as a model and. And sustaining a story over 300 pages. That was episodic, for sure, but it had to have a cohesive sort of mood. And also I realized that I had committed to spending my Saturday nights.

[Luke Burbank]

Right. Yes.

[Susan Orlean]

For like five years, working, essentially strangers. Yeah, it was really funny. But for all of its eccentricity and for it being my first book, I had such a great reception.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. You know, speaking of your books, I've checked, and there are absolutely zero references to you anywhere on the Internet that do not mention the Orchid Thief, which I did not know until reading this book came about. Because you ran out of reading material on a flight?

[Susan Orlean]

Yes, yes. I had been on vacation, was flying home, had finished my book, and I thought, oh, God, I have another two hours on this flight. So I'm fishing around in the seat pocket, and someone had left a Miami Herald. Ugh, Miami Herald. Like, I'm not interested. But I thought, well, I have nothing else to read. And, you know, I'm not interested generally in the front section of just the rehash of national news. But I do love local news, local obituaries. So I open the paper to the middle or back of that section, and I see a headline that says, local Nurseryman. Crew of Seminoles Arrested in Swamp with Rare Orchids. And I thought, I'm in. Yeah, I don't understand a single word of this headline. And I, you know, the story said very little else except that this guy had been arrested with four pillowcases full of orchids. So let me just. At the sea of you. I hate Florida. I kind of hated orchids. I hate swamps.

[Luke Burbank]

Who doesn't?

[Susan Orlean]

But I got off the plane and thought, I have to do this story. And I came into the New Yorker office the next day and I said to my editor, I have no idea what this is about, but something about it is interesting and intriguing. And she said, well, go to the hearing in the case of the arrest and see. See what you think. I showed. I turned around, flew back to Miami, went to the hearing and met John Laroche, who was the accused orchid thief. And among his first statements to the judge was, you, Honor, I'm the smartest person I know. And I thought, I like this guy. I think he's, you know, there's something there. I spent the next six or eight weeks going back and forth to Florida to get to know him, to get to know. Why on earth would anybody take orchids out of a swamp and not just go to Home Depot and buy them? And I didn't know orchids grew wild in Florida. I knew nothing about orchids. After I finished the article for the New Yorker, I couldn't give up the story. I just thought, there's so much more to say. This is just such an intriguing, crazy world. Just this notion this guy had, which was to clone this rare orchid that only grows in this one swamp in South Florida clone it. And he believed he would make millions of millions of dollars. And it just so happens that the swamp that this orchid grew in was the site of the biggest land fraud in Florida history. So every aspect of the story got crazier and crazier and crazier in the most interesting way.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, then it gets even crazier for you, which is the book. It's going to be adapted into a film, but instead it comes back from the writer, Charlie Kaufman, as this movie called Adaptation, which has Meryl Streep playing you, except you're also having an affair with the orchid guy, which did not happen in your real life. This is just a complete sort of, like, departure from your book, where there's a character named Susan Orlean in the movie doing stuff that real Susan Orlean did not. And yet this has also made the book fabulous. I mean, the book was popular, but, like, it's added this whole thing to it. What was it like for you to have that be the way that this book played out on the screen?

[Susan Orlean]

It was crazy. When the book got optioned for a film, I thought, I hope you guys have actually read the book. Cause I don't really see how this could possibly be a movie. It's a very meandering, reflexive, sort of poetic book about passion and flowers. And I just thought, you know, I think maybe you read a different book, but I'll accept your option check. Then I get the script, I open it up. There I am as a character, which I never imagined, and a character in different, somewhat compromising positions, having an affair with John Laroche, the orchid thief, being a drug maniac, killing a Fish and Wildlife officer. You know, just a few differences, just a few minds.

[Luke Burbank]

Quibbles, really.

[Susan Orlean]

Yeah, really. I was splitting hairs, really. And I said, look, you guys, I know you have the rights to make the movie, but you cannot use my name. I said, this will ruin my career, and you just can't use my name. Well, the producer very cleverly figured out the one way to crack my resolve. He said, so, you know, the book is a character in the film, and the book is shown many times. And it's quite quoted directly from the book. He said, well, how are you gonna feel if your book appears in the movie? Really big, like 8ft high with someone else's name as the author. And I thought, never, over my dead body. But I was really worried. People are not gonna get that. This is a meta, sort of meditation on the Making of art. And I just thought, I don't know if I can do this. And the next thing I know, I'm signing a legal document saying I won't press charges against them for portraying me as a drug addict who has killed a federal officer. And, like, I'm signing the paper just thinking, yeah, like, all in a day's work. This is completely crazy. But when I finally went to see the film, as I was heading over to the screening, I called my agent and I said, is it too late to change my mind? And he said, yes, it is too late. And I was petrified. I sat through the movie. I think I was so shocked. I mean, seeing Meryl Streep saying, hi, I'm Susan Orlean, and holding, you know, the Orchid Thief, the book, you know, you just think I'm having an out of body experience. And, you know, over time, as audiences began seeing it, it was screened more. And I began to realize if people understood that the movie takes this huge pivot and becomes this crazy Hollywood fantasy. There's still a few people who say to me, you know, how are you?

[Luke Burbank]

Well, as we're sort of getting to the end of our conversation today, it sort of brings me back to Joyride, which is a memoir. And I believe you say in the book that you never wanted to write a memoir. So clearly that impulse towards, like, why not? Even applies to this, right? Why didn't you want to write a memoir?

[Susan Orlean]

I think it was a combination of things. I think during COVID like everybody, I got very kind of reflective and thinking about my life. And around that same time, somebody pointed out to me that I had written the orchid thief 25 years ago. And it was such a profound kind of moment of thinking, wow, I've been doing this for a long time. And the Orchid Thief wasn't even my first book. And sort of appreciating the monumental nature of that passage of time. I first thought I would write a book about writing. And I was gonna write a book, really about the American man, age 10, and how that came about, how I did that story, why I did that story. But without context, it felt like it wasn't the full story. I had to sort of lead you to the point where this young writer had the nerve to say, no, I don't want to profile Macaulay Culkin. So who was that person? And it felt integral to the story of my career because I've really been the driver in a way that I sort of created this business, this brand, and kind of moved it forward in a way that really is deeply connected to my feelings about life and creativity and how you treat other people and how you value other people. It's all entirely integral to the work I've done. So it felt like it was a natural part of the story. But I truly believe that the story I'm telling is an eternal story about our need to tell each other stories and to hear each other's stories. And that won't ever change.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, it is a collection of incredibly well told stories from someone who we look forward to hearing all of the future stories you're going to tell us. Susan Orlean, thank you for being on Livewire.

[Susan Orlean]

Thank you. Thank you so much.

[Luke Burbank]

That was Susan Orlean right here on Livewire. Her latest book, a Memoir, is available right now. All right, we've got to take a very quick break, but stay where you are. When we return, we are going to be hearing about memoir title ideas from our audience. Elena has seen this list and was laughing quietly to herself. So I think that's a good sign. Plus, we're going to hear some music from David Ramirez, one of Austin's most beloved singer songwriters. So stick around. More Livewires coming your way. Hey, it's your friend Luke reminding you, as if you didn't already know, that Livewire has sort of always been a show that does not really work out on paper. The math doesn't totally math, as they say. We're a weekly national broadcast. We do dozens of live events that are produced on a budget that is mostly held together by, like duct tape and determination, I guess. So as you have probably already heard, things are really tough out here in public radio, especially for shows like Livewire. Government arts fundings have been slashed. There are a lot of stations that can no longer pay for the show, and ticket sales and sponsorships are down across the entire industry. These are all the ways that we've been able to kind of balance our books over the years, and those are going away. We have somehow survived for two decades basically by being too stubborn to quit. And we are not going to quit anytime soon. But we cannot do this alone. If you are hearing my voice right now, we need you to join us to make this radio show and this experience happens. Look, maybe you discovered a musician on Livewire that you weren't hearing on like the top 40 radio. Maybe you found like your next favorite book or author. Maybe you ugly laughed alone in your car or ugly cried. No judgment. Look, if this show has been there for you in any way, shape or form, we are asking you Right now to help us build a version of Livewire that can't be defunded, can't be canceled, and can't do disappear because budgets get tight, which is what we're in danger of having happen now. Right now, if you can join our fully charged [e-mail] fullycharged, you will help us keep the lights on and keep the weird, wonderful conversations that Livewire is known for flowing. So thank you so much for stepping up and doing your part to keep Livewire going. We can't do this without you. Welcome back to Livewire from prx. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. Of course. Each week on Livewire, we like to ask our listeners a question. Alaina, what are we asking the listeners this week?

[Elena Passarello]

We would like to know what the title of your memoir would be.

[Luke Burbank]

I see. Because of the Susan Orlean interview. Okay. Do you know that I was trying to write a memoir for so long that eventually someone else wrote one with the same title?

[Elena Passarello]

What was your title?

[Luke Burbank]

Failure is an Option. And H. John Benjamin, the great voice actor, wrote a memoir called Failure is an Option.

[Elena Passarello]

Bob from Bob's Burgers.

[Luke Burbank]

That's right. And Archer and a whole bunch of other things. That's how long it took me, which was in fact a failure, which I took as an option.

[Elena Passarello]

There you go. I have also only a title for my memoir. I don't know if it'll get taken, but I've always wanted to call mine Tis Pity She's a Ham, which is both pretentious and obnoxious. So I feel like that really encapsulates my whole vibe pretty well.

[Luke Burbank]

You know, you just put that out to like hundreds of thousands of listeners, so you better hope nobody steals that.

[Elena Passarello]

John Benjamin is going to take it. H. John Benjamin, his follow up memoir.

[Luke Burbank]

All right, what are some of the titles of memoirs that our listeners would pick?

[Elena Passarello]

Okay, no fair stealing these, everybody. Shannon's is how to Overthink Everything a memoir in three volumes, or should it be four?

[Luke Burbank]

I know the feeling. I think that's part of why my memoir never got off the ground, because I couldn't even write a sentence without, like, overthinking what that sentence should be. I mean, you're a writer of many books. I don't know how you get past just that kind of crippling self doubt thing.

[Elena Passarello]

I think it's hardest probably when you're writing about your own life, you know, like, at least if you're telling some other story, you just like, okay, I'M just gonna tell the story and then fix it. But I think when you're writing about your own life, you're so to it, that panic and that anxiety is a lot more deeply felt.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. What's another memoir title one of our listeners would use if they ever got around to it?

[Elena Passarello]

This one, I think could work for almost anybody. Ally would like to title Ally's memoir why I'm like this.

[Luke Burbank]

That feels like a laminated card. You should just have, like, your folks that got married in the best news segment. Yeah, Just why I'm like this. And you hand someone a card and it's just like, yeah. You know, it's just got a picture of your parents pretty much.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah. Just wear it around your neck. Like a Flavor Flav clock.

[Luke Burbank]

That's right. Like his clock. What's another memoir title from one of our listeners?

[Elena Passarello]

I like this one. Jordan's. My therapist thinks this title is too long, but I disagree. A memoir.

[Luke Burbank]

Have I told you that I once tried to get my actual therapist to be a guest on Livewire and she turned it down for professional reasons. For professional reasons, which is the highest compliment that you can pay a therapist, I think. You know, she was like, well, that sounds great, Luke, but I don't think that would really be appropriate. And by the way, it's something we could probably discuss next week.

[Elena Passarello]

We might need to bring this up in the next session.

[Luke Burbank]

Yes.

[Elena Passarello]

I have a friend who likes to make fun of his digestive issues, and he's always wanted to call his memoir Colon. Colon. A memoir of ibs. Because all the memoirs always have colons in them.

[Luke Burbank]

That's right. That's right. All right, nobody steal any of these great ideas. Just everybody buckle down and write your own memoir with its great title, and then we'll read it on Livewire. I promise. Thank you so much to everybody who wrote in an answer to our question this week. Special thanks this week to Chris Lofgren of Eau Claire, Wisconsin, and Michael Goobert of Columbus Corbett, Oregon, for sponsoring Livewire. Chris and Michael are members of the League of Extraordinary Listeners, and they are making a donation each month to Livewire, which is a huge thing that we are so grateful for because it is how we are able to keep this thing going so giant. Thanks this week to Chris and Michael for keeping Livewire. You are tuned in to Livewire. Before we get to this week's musical performance from David Ramirez, a little preview of next week's show. We're actually gonna do something that we have never done before. So each year we have like dozens of guests on our stage and we've already got some really, really exciting ones lined up for next year. Can't wait for you to hear them. But before we fully move into 2026, we wanted to take some time and kind of reflect back on some of our favorite and strangest moments from last year and maybe give you a little extra behind the scenes insight as to what was going on around these interviews. Like, why did I think it was a good idea to pop a balloon full of glitter on Paul F. Tompkins? And has he forgiven us for that?

[Elena Passarello]

There was a lot of collateral damage to that as well because I was sitting in between you and Paul F. Tompkins.

[Luke Burbank]

Right. Or maybe what was it like interviewing an AI Chatbot live on stage for the first time? Well, you'll hear next week it was for me, it was troubling because the AI Chatbot got off some really good burns on me and I did not like it at all. So anyway, it's going to be that kind of show. We're going to play some of our favorite moments from the year and we're going to tell you a little bit about how those moments came about. So make sure you tune in for that next week on livewire. In the meantime, our musical guest this week was awarded Songwriter of the Year by the Austin Chronicle, recognizing his contributions to the music scene in Austin, Texas. As you might have guessed, NPR calls him the ever moody innovator of Americana, which I feel like I trust. NPR's Read on Things that are moody. They know that it's like kind of their stock and trade. His latest album is called all the not so Gentle Reminders, which he describes as a much needed love letter to his younger self. This is David Ramirez who joined us at the Alberta Rose Theatre in Portland, Oregon. Take a listen.

[David Ramirez]

Write a song.

[Susan Orlean]

Make.

[David Ramirez]

A record, play a show, sell a T shirt. It's your first year standing on a stage. You're thinking when will I get paid? Well, there must be something wrong with the business Cause they ain't praising you like Jesus. And you think, well, maybe it'll come together, maybe it'll all work out even points where the sky and scream come on of a brother out when the truth is that's all a lie. If you're just wishing you ain't pitching strikes no, no Put in the work, put in the time Put in the work and put in the time. Well, politics look better from the fence. If you want the easy life just avoid the argument and take a picture of that Sticker and then post it to your page Then sleep like a baby while the world goes up in flames. Just thinking maybe it'll come together maybe maybe it'll all work out Even point to the sky and scream Come on, El sister, Out. When the truth is that's all a lie if you're just wishing you ain't pitching strikes no, put in the work Put in the time Put in the.

[Susan Orlean]

Work.

[David Ramirez]

Put in the time. Well, I've got a girl at home who's been asleep for several hours and the sun's coming up in two and I'm doing drugs with a bunch of strangers I'm thinking she wants to change me she wants to take away my freedom or maybe she just loves me and wants me to stop dying. But then I think, you know, well, maybe it'll come together yeah, yeah, yeah maybe it'll just work out I even point to the sky and scream come on, help a brother out. When the truth is that's all a lie Cuz if I'm just wishing I ain't pitching strikes no, no, no Put.

[Luke Burbank]

In the work.

[David Ramirez]

Put in the time, kid Put in the work Put in the time, kid yeah, put in the work Put in the time Put in.

[Susan Orlean]

The work.

[David Ramirez]

And put in the time.

[Luke Burbank]

That was David Ramirez right here on Livewire, recorded live at the Alberta Rose Theater. David's latest album, all the not so Gentle Reminders, is available now. All right, that's gonna do it for this week's episode of Livewire. A huge thanks to our guest Susan Orlean and and David Ramirez. And special thanks this episode to the Heathman Hotel and the Portland Book Festival.

[Elena Passarello]

Lara Haddon is our executive producer. Heather D. Michel is our executive director. And our producer and editor is Melanie Savchenko. Eben Hofer is our technical director with assistance from Leona Kinderman. And Trey Hester is our assistant editor.

[Luke Burbank]

Valentine Keck is our operations manager, and Ashley park is our marketing manager. Tiffany Nguyen is our Internet. Our house sound is by D. Neal Blake, and our house band is Al Alves, Sam Pinkerton and A. Walker Spring, who also composes our music. This show was mixed by Eben Hoffer and Trey Hester.

[Elena Passarello]

Additional funding provided by the James F. And Marian L. Miller Foundation. Livewire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kay Sokoloff. This week we'd like to thank members Chris Lofgren of Eau Claire, Wisconsin, and Michael Goobert of Corbett, Oregon.

[Luke Burbank]

For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast podcast, head on over to livewireradio.org I'm Luke Burbank for Elena Passarello and the whole Livewire team. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week. Dear Livewire, when we first met, I was really shy. I had no idea we'd spend so much time together or that you'd be one to fill my heart with joy and make me want to be a better person. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know you were here. I was busy reading a review from one of our many, many rapturously smitten listeners. Oh, wait. Actually, no. Sorry. This is from Elena. Anyway, the point is, it would be really helpful if you wanted to leave us a review. Feel free to say really nice things about us, and we'll even read them now and then on the show so you might hear your review of Livewire. Read on the program itself. Reviews help other people hear about the show, and then we can keep doing this for a long, long time because we love having this job. Thank you so much. If you've left a review, and if you're about to leave a review, you can go ahead and do it right where you get the podcast.

[Elena Passarello]

From prx.