Creating Spaces Where Shame No Longer Hides

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Creating Spaces Where Shame No Longer Hides"

Podcast: Living Influence with Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd
Hosts: Bill Thrall & Scott Boyd
Air Date: January 8, 2026

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Overview: Main Theme & Purpose

In this episode, Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd explore how to create environments—particularly within faith communities—where people feel safe enough to stop hiding their real selves, break free from shame, and step into the identity God has for them. They focus on vulnerability, trust, and the concept that everyone carries wounds and shame, but all can find hope, healing, and a new way of relating through grace.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Hiding and Shame Are Universal (01:36 - 03:04)

• Shame and hiding are not just issues for some, but are universal:
  • “There is no one that has not been affected by sin. There is no one who, because of that, has not been affected by shame. There is no one who lives without hiding something.” — Bill Thrall [02:22]
• The importance of acknowledging our own stories and brokenness so others can recognize themselves and find hope in community.
• Creating an environment where people can be known and loved, even for their worst moments.

2. The Power of Storytelling and Safe Spaces (03:04 - 04:50)

• Sharing personal stories of struggle opens the door for others.
• Many leaders themselves (professors, pastors) have not learned to stop hiding because they—too—have never found a truly safe place.
• “What if I told the worst about me and I was loved more for the telling of it?” — Quoting John Williams via Bill Thrall [04:20]
• The messiness of authenticity is necessary: if an environment isn’t messy, no one is really dealing with their struggles.

3. Practical Ways to Create Trust (05:06 - 07:04)

• Drawing on the parable of the splinter and the log:
  • “Take the log out of your eye in front of them.” — Scott Boyd [05:09]
• Thrall shares from personal experience about years spent hiding, making unhealthy choices, and being unwilling to let others fully trust him.
• A safe place requires two things:
  1. The willingness to trust.
  2. The willingness to be trusted.
• When trust blooms, hope becomes possible for others.

4. What Safe Spaces Offer: Hope (07:04 - 08:06)

• By seeing transformation in others (vulnerability, healing), people become hopeful it could happen for them too.
• “You do something for me. You give me the hope that it could be true about me. And I’m desperately wanting to be known, I’m scared to death of being known.” — Bill Thrall [07:07]
• The journey is about letting love, trust, and hope replace cycles of shame and hiding.

5. Understanding Why People Hide (08:06 - 11:20)

• People often manufacture a persona to be liked because they’re too afraid of being really known or trusted.
• “I will manufacture a view of me that I believe you need in order to like me.” — Bill Thrall [08:22]
• It’s easier for Christians to “work on sin issues” than trust issues; but working on behavior alone doesn’t nurture life—love and trust do.

6. Healing Old Wounds & Embracing Redemption (11:20 - 13:06)

• Sin wounds deeply; people carry scars for decades without addressing them biblically.
• Safe environments allow for healing much earlier in the journey—no wound is beyond God’s reach.
• “There is nothing that has been done to them, there is nothing that they have done, that is beyond the reach of God’s redemptive blood. Nothing.” — Bill Thrall [11:18]

7. Grace Over Self-Justification (12:33 - 13:50)

• Instead of striving to justify or defend oneself, the invitation is to rest in what Jesus has already accomplished.
• “Do you know that you can never work on your sin to become something? Only Jesus can work on your sin, and He’s already made you something.” — Bill Thrall [13:45]

8. Hope as a Foundation for Transformation (14:15 - 16:08)

• Without hope, people lose their resiliency and are tempted by poor choices.
• The foundation of change is hope rooted in grace—living defined by “what could be,” not “what has been.”
• Understanding grace shifts focus from shameful past to potential future.

9. Moving Beyond Forgiveness of Sin—Discovering True Identity (16:08 - 19:31)

• The journey with God is about learning to trust Jesus not just with our sin, but with our whole person.
• Identity is not absorbed instantly but discovered as a process.
• “We want to lead them into trusting Jesus with their person, not just their sin.” — Bill Thrall [16:08]
• The discovery process involves learning about Christ’s identity and His work on Calvary first, not just head knowledge about our own “new identity.”

10. Maturing: A Discovery, Not an Achievement (19:00 - 20:03)

• Spiritual maturity is a journey of discovery, not of earning.
• “It’s a discovery process at every step: being loved, trust, not hiding, answer to my woundedness…” — Bill Thrall [19:05]
• The more one is established in love, trust, and identity, the more that transformation is expressed in how we love others.

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Memorable Quotes & Notable Moments

• “There is no one who lives without hiding something.” — Bill Thrall [02:22]
• “What if I told the worst about me and I was loved more for the telling of it?” — John Williams (quoted by Bill Thrall) [04:20]
• “Take the log out of your eye in front of them.” — Scott Boyd [05:09]
• “I will manufacture a view of me that I believe you need in order to like me.” — Bill Thrall [08:22]
• “Only Jesus can work on your sin, and He’s already made you something.” — Bill Thrall [13:45]
• “If I don’t understand grace, my life will be defined by what has been. If I understand grace, my life will start to be defined by what could be.” — Bill Thrall [15:15]
• “We want to lead them into trusting Jesus with their person, not just their sin.” — Bill Thrall [16:08]
• “It’s a discovery process at every step: being loved, trust, not hiding, answer to my woundedness…” — Bill Thrall [19:05]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Universal Shame & Hiding — [01:36]
• Power of Stories/Safe Places — [03:04]
• Messiness of Authenticity — [04:50]
• Trust and Hope in Community — [05:06]
• Creating Change By Example — [07:04]
• Why We Manufacture Personas — [08:22]
• Addressing Deep Wounds and Redemption — [11:20]
• Shifting from Justification to Rest — [13:45]
• Hope as a Foundation — [14:15]
• Discovering Identity in Christ — [16:08]
• Transformation as Discovery — [19:00]

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Final Thoughts

Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd close by setting the stage for next week’s episode on how maturity plays out practically in loving others—illustrating that influence and transformation always flow from personhood shaped in the context of deep, safe, grace-saturated community.

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This summary distills the heart of “Creating Spaces Where Shame No Longer Hides,” capturing both the wisdom and inviting warmth of Bill and Scott’s conversation—an accessible guide for anyone who wants to create (or find) communities where grace triumphs over hiding and shame is brought into the healing light.

Transcript

[A]

If you like our content, we have an exclusive seminar for business leaders, March 11th to the 13th. Check it out on livinginfluenceleadership.com welcome to Living Influence. I'm your host, Scott Boyd. I'm here with Bill Thrall, my friend and mentor. And last week, we talked about Bill's recommendation to professors with the students that would come to their college and that the professors would be able to create an environment for their students so that they would learn to not hide. To not hide anything. I got some questions and I got some stories before I'll throw it to you, Bill, but I learned about the power of being vulnerable and open, and then it quickly became something I needed to do. And it was interesting. There'd be people that I would share my life issues with, my struggles, and sometimes they wouldn't reciprocate. They go, oh, I'm sorry, and they would stay closed, and it's like, I'm bleeding on the floor, and they're not, like, helping at all, you know? Or the other experience I would have is I'd share a life issue, and then someone would, like, go into fix it mode. Oh, well, have you ever thought of doing this? And both of those things end up causing you to go, well, I don't want to ever do that again. The question is, how do you create a place where people learn to hide nothing?

[B]

It's a great question, and it's a hard question and a hard answer, but I'll start this. What if we're right? What if we know that a person becomes a believer and they bring with them their propensity to hide because of their shame? What if we already knew that's God? What if we already knew that because that was true about us? What if we knew it about them because it was true about us?

[A]

Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Because often we think. We think we're really bad, and what's true about me isn't what's true about.

[B]

You, but just the opposite is true, Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There is no one that has not been affected by sin. There is no one who, because of that, has not been affected by shame. There is no one who lives without hiding something.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Well, what if we already knew that? So what if we created a place where these new believers could hear our stories? What if they could hear our stories about what it was like for us to let someone love us? What was it like for us to trust somebody with who we really were? What if they learned or could hear us tell what we were hiding and how damning it was.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To who we were and to who we were affected. And they sat there and they listened and they went, sounds just like me. Sounds just like me. I don't do this to tease these professors, but I know in advance many of these professors themselves have not learned to stop hiding. Many pastors have not learned to stop hiding because they themselves have not found a safe place. Sometimes I teasingly say on these podcasts, I'm now using my screaming voice. I'm screaming as loud as I can. Could you all just pause for a minute and understand something? There is no one who comes to Christ that has not been affected by sin. There is no one who comes to Christ who has experienced shame. There is no one who comes to Christ who isn't hiding. What they need is a place that's safe enough where they can be loved, where they can be trusted and trust. And where they. Here's the key word. Where they can be known, as our friend John Williams says all the time. This is one of his great lines. What if I told the worst about me and I was loved more for the telling of it?

[A]

Right. Right.

[B]

That's the environment we're trying to create. And somebody would say, well, Bill, that's going to get real messy because we're all screwed up. Well, let me tell you something. Your environment may not be messy, but I can promise you something. No one is dealing with being screwed up. But I want to promise you something. It is messy.

[A]

Does this connect to the parable of the splinter and the log?

[B]

Yeah, sure. It does, doesn't it? Yeah, of course it does.

[A]

Jesus says, if you see a person with an issue.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

First, take the log out of your eye.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But really, take the log out of your eye in front of them.

[B]

There you go. There you go. I love that. I love that addition. So as we talk about this process of maturing, what if the church or the community or the house or wherever you have people. What if it was a safe place where I would demonstrate that I am no longer afraid of being known? Scott, I can tell you tell everybody. For many, many years, I lived in the hiding of this truth. I was making choices that were screwing me up royally, and therefore I would never let you trust me because I did not want to infect you with what I was doing. Yeah, I want to hear that. So how do we create a safe place? We create a safe place where we're not afraid to do two things. We're not afraid to trust, and we're not afraid to be trusted. You sound a Bill. That nobody's afraid to be trusted except everybody. This is a big deal. This is a big deal. Why would anyone be afraid to be trusted? Because they are aware of what their life choices are doing to them. So how in the world do we introduce a new believer to an environment where some of us are experiencing love, where some of us are experiencing trust, where some of us are experiencing no longer having to hide? Here's a byproduct of all of this. You create hope. You create hope. You literally create an environment where people have the hope that this could also be true about them.

[A]

So what's the hope you're creating? What could be true about them?

[B]

What could be true about them? If it's true about you, Scott, if you went through all of this, you do something for me. You give me the hope that it could be true about me. And I'm desperately wanting to be known. I'm scared to death of being known. When I meet people and they sit across the table, so to speak, with me, I already have an awareness of dynamics that are alive in them. I'm meeting with a man right now, and it's a great time, but he keeps saying to me, bill, give me something to do. Give me something to do. Give me something to do. And I am giving you something to do. What are you getting me to do? I've told you that I would like you to do this, this, and this. Oh, he said, oh, that's just. Man, that doesn't feel like I'm doing it. It feels like you're asking me to just trust somebody. These are hard dynamics. God, they're hard dynamics.

[A]

Talk to me about the piece you said just triggered me a little bit.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

I won't let you trust me. Yeah, because I don't trust myself.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I won't let you trust me. So if I'm living as a person, not wanting others to trust me. Yes.

[B]

What does that look like? I will manufacture a view of me that I believe you need in order to like me.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That's what I'll do. I'll manufacture a view of me in order. Because I desperately want to be liked, but I am afraid of being trusted. So you see the dynamics there? See that conflict? It's a huge conflict. So how in the world does a guy like Bill thrall, who desperately, throughout his developmental years, did everything he could to be liked anyway? I was very bad at it. I was a bad friend until I mature enough to the point where I'm Able to trust God with what I was hiding. I'm able to trust others with who I am. And now I'm able to be a person where I'm willing to let you trust me. Those are huge words, God. Those are not just little bitty words. Those are huge words. It is so much easier, Scott, for Christians in environments to work on their sin issues than it is to work on their trust issues. It's so much easier to work on their behavior than it is to work on being loved. But working on your sin issues and your behavior never produces life. Not only doesn't produce life, it doesn't nurture the life that you have. Love does. Trust does. So we add another dynamic to this whole thing. So, because I know they're struggling with shame and I know they're struggling with hiding, I know they're revealing something. I know they're revealing how deeply wounded they are. And so we address this topic, the me centered healing the needy individual. Why? Because sin really wounds us. I meet, Scott, you and I together in our cohorts, we meet with 50, 60, even 70 year old Christians. And often in the process of these two or three years with us, people have been Christians for 30 or 40 or more years, for the first time in their life, are biblically dealing with their wounding, which means they've carried the scars for decades. For decades. What if we could create. Back to your question. What if we could create a safe place? Or what are the issues that could be addressed early in their development is the depth of their wounding? What if we could be a vehicle for them to understand there is nothing that has been done to them, There is nothing that they have done that is beyond the reach of God's redemptive blood. Nothing. Yeah, nothing.

[A]

Nothing. That's a powerful word.

[B]

That's a very powerful word.

[A]

Yeah. I've had people, they don't believe that.

[B]

Exactly because they've not been taught it right, Scott, they believe it theoretically, well, he died for all sin, but they don't know how to apply the reality. So as we said in a couple of our podcasts, is that, what if this was part of God's amazing grace? What if young believers could be at a place where they learned to trust the blood of Jesus Christ in real time to cleanse them of what they've done? What if they could learn to trust the blood of Jesus Christ in real time through forgiveness, to cleanse them of what others have done to them? Why do we have to wait 10, 20, 30 years? Why aren't we way up Front, doing something, recognizing there is no one. There is no one's God who comes to Christ, who doesn't come to Christ wounded because of sin. Nobody.

[A]

Yeah. So another answer to the question I was asked, what does it look like when someone's not trusting themselves here would be an answer I think would fit. They are often very busy justifying why they've done what they've done.

[B]

Good for you.

[A]

And so there's. They, they have a lot of story to tell about why. And, and they're, it's like they're scrambling to find the place where they can stand.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

When, when Jesus offers us the only place to stand this whole thing about sin, we, I mean, don't. We need to work on that?

[B]

And it's like, well, we can't exactly. But pause there for a minute because that's a powerful statement. What if we could, let's just say, just keep looking as if there were two non believers, new Christians sitting here. But let's assume there. What if, what if we could say to them, do you know that you can never work on your sin to become something? Only Jesus can work on your sin and he's already made you something.

[A]

Yeah. Then I wouldn't have to justify.

[B]

You wouldn't have to.

[A]

I wouldn't have to defend. I could just actually be.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I mean, there would, I mean, there's so much potential peace in that. Like I, you could just.

[B]

I could, I could rest.

[A]

I could, I could kind of just let my card down.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For a moment.

[B]

And again, those things you just said, those, those last three or four, those are examples of hope.

[A]

You know what happens to people when.

[B]

They'Re in an environment where they're never known? They lose hope. This is an interesting phenomenon. The human being has incredible emotional elasticity. Incredible. Human beings can come back from a lot until they lose hope. And so when they lose hope, what they do then is they begin to be seduced by wrong life choices again to justify the fact that nobody cares about them. So we're going to keep saying that we're creating a safe place where people can experience hope so that the hope that they experience lays a foundation in them of what could be. And they start learning to be defined by what could be, not what has been. If I don't understand grace, my life will be defined by what has been. Yeah, if I understand grace, my life will start to be defined by what could be. I'm going to live in the hope of what could be. I've learned, Scott, the dread of living in the life of what was. I know that pain, that agony. I know that reality, not only in me, but in literally by now, hundreds of people I've met with. So we're back to this process, the me center healing. And so there's another key element here. They've learned to trust Jesus with their sin or they wouldn't be a Christian.

[A]

Right.

[B]

As they mature, we want to lead them into something. We want to lead them into trusting Jesus with their person, not just their sin. And we want to lead them into trusting Jesus with their person because there's a new identity that is theirs to discover and live into, the identity of who God says you are. I'm pretty cautious to say to us, you got to do this. Well, over time, people have a propensity to assume because they know something. They've trusted what they know. So what'll happen is if you give new believers all of the truth about who God says they are, they'll know it cognitively, but they'll never know it experientially. So what we want to do is we want them in their early development to know that God can be trusted with their person and he has for them a new identity.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the question they should be asking is, well, how do I discover this new identity? Aha. Great question, Charlie. Now you're ready for the next step, rather than dumping all the theology we know on them before they even can begin to understand anything you're talking about. So how do we do that? Here's my answer. Could I begin teaching them the significance of who Jesus is and the significance of what he did at Calvary as a foundation to their understanding of their identity?

[A]

Right.

[B]

What if I could do that? What if that's what they needed more than anything else at this point in their development? An awareness of who Jesus is and his work at Calvary?

[A]

And they have to experience that. Right?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And they experience that through another's love.

[B]

His love. Through trusting him with what he's done. What if a new believer was introduced to the significance of the person of Jesus so they would learn to trust him? What if a new believer was taught the profound significance of the work of Jesus at Calvary so they could trust that work? And, oh, by the way, one of the evidences of that profound work at Calvary is that he's made you a new creature.

[A]

Yeah. And so this maturing is a discovery.

[B]

It's a discovery process at every step. It's discovering being loved, it's discovering trust. It's discovering not hiding. It's discovering an answer to my woundedness. It's to discover an awareness of the person, work of Christ. It's a discovery of the significance of my new identity. But it's all a discovery process.

[A]

Yeah. Not a doing and earning.

[B]

Not a doing and earning process.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And not everybody will learn all of those at the same straight line. But it leads us, Scott, then into our next session, which is what if I am experiencing all those things? What happens next? I start to mature. That's the foundation for my maturing. And then what happens? As I said earlier, the evidence of that maturing is the way I treat.

[A]

You shows up in loving others.

[B]

So let's do that next time.

[A]

We'll do that next time on Living Influence. Thanks for being with us. We're going to continue this discussion on the process of maturing, and we'll see you next week. Thanks. Thank you for listening to the podcast. We're really glad that you're here. We'd love to know that you're here. And so if you could leave a comment, we would appreciate that. But more importantly, if you know someone that should listen to this or hear it, we would love for you to share it with them. Thanks again.