From Sinner to Saint: Living Dead to Sin

Summary

Podcast Summary: Living Influence with Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd

Episode: From Sinner to Saint: Living Dead to Sin

Date: November 20, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd explore a transformative theological concept: the journey from seeing oneself as a “sinner” to embracing a new identity as a “saint” – living “dead to sin” and alive in Christ. The discussion centers on how one’s self-view profoundly shapes their capacity to love, influence, and live out their faith. The co-hosts challenge common Christian assumptions, inviting listeners to shift from guilt and sin-management to bold trust in their true identity.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Power of Self-View in Christian Influence

• Scott opens by emphasizing the importance of self-view: “We can still think that we're a sinner. And you're not. You are not a sinner. And thinking you are robs you of an opportunity to experience the joy that it's set before us.” [00:22]
• Bill echoes the central point: “If as a Christian, I still see myself as a sinner, then sin is my dominant subject... But if I believe... that I'm really a saint, then you know what happens? I become preoccupied with love.” [01:04]

2. Theological Foundations of Being “Dead to Sin”

• Bill reviews the biblical roots, revisiting Adam’s sin and the genesis of “sin-management.” He points out, “He tried to cover his nakedness. We call that sin management.” [02:27]
• Scott comments on the pitfalls of sin-management: “I gotta work on my sin. I become self-centered. And in my self-centeredness, I quit actually being able to notice others.” [02:51]

3. Identity Shift: From Sinner to Saint

• Bill describes the transformation: “We can actually come to a faith in Jesus Christ… be born into Christ… live into the righteousness that is ours. But today's topic is this… in Christ, we are dead to sin. That's who we are. That's my new identity.” [03:13]
• Addressing doubts, Bill clarifies, “You who are now dead to sin have been made alive into righteousness.” [04:23]

4. Living Out the New Identity

• Measuring the change, Bill explains: “How would I measure that I'm actually dead to sin? By how well I live into the righteousness that I have in Christ, always expressing itself in love.” [04:41]
• He makes it personal: “How would I know that I'm dead to sin? Because I, who am alive, am going to do something I couldn't do when I was dead… think of you [others].” [05:40]

5. The Experience of New Life

• Scott uses a vivid metaphor: “It was as if you got a new pair of glasses and all of a sudden you could see the leaves on the tree… Everything looked different.” [06:18]
• Both hosts lament the dampening of this experience by church culture: “The very churches that you went to immediately reminded you that you were still a sinner.” [07:07]

6. Scriptural Grounding

• Scott brings in Galatians 2: “If I rebuild what I tore down, I'll prove myself to be a transgressor … I tore down the law. The law no longer will define me because Jesus defines me.” [09:09]
• Bill elaborates: “What got torn down was who I used to be. And my dependency on the law … I have a new foundation. I have a new reality. And in that new reality, I am dead to who I was.” [09:23–09:36]

7. Not Behavioral Transformation, But Death and New Life

• Bill distinguishes: “The Christian life is not about changing who I used to be into who I ought to be. The Christian life is not a behavioral transformation. It's a death transformation.” [10:56]

8. Living as Children of God

• Scott: “Children of a parent have their parents DNA… that speaks to this righteousness that God puts in us.” [12:18]
• The hosts use their podcast’s upside-down mountain logo to illustrate: “God starts with, like, changing you fundamentally completely right at the spot right here.” [13:09]

9. Trust and Surrender

• Bill offers a practical challenge: “Did you trust Jesus with your sin? … but have you ever trusted him with your life?” [13:43]
• Scott articulates a common fear: “What if he makes me do something I don't want to do?” [14:35]
• Bill dismantles the fear: “He's asking to be your God… When you have that fear… you're really saying, I'm afraid I won't be God anymore.” [14:43]

10. Living Out Love Instead of Focusing on Sin

• Bill urges, “Can I let [the significance of Christ in me] be my focus? … We transferred the focus from being my sin to being dead to sin because of who God says I am.” [15:56]
• The new reality, as Scott puts it: “My focus begins to be on who I really am, who he has really made me… if I could believe that I am in fact dead to sin… but don't end it there… I am now alive to righteousness.” [17:01]

11. Application in Everyday Life and Business

• Scott relates this truth to business: “When you find somebody that's like started a business from the ground up… they're going to have a story about loving people. And it is the significance of what Christ has done that enables us to do that.” [18:52]

12. Living Into Theology by Faith

• Bill concludes: “How do you … live into that theology? By believing that I, who am dead to sin, am alive because of God's grace by loving.” [20:04]
• Scott adds: “It's that little tip on the mountain… It's called faith, by the way.” [20:17]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If as a Christian, I still see myself as a sinner, then sin is my dominant subject I deal with… But if I believe… that I'm really a saint, then… I become preoccupied with love.” – Bill Thrall [01:04]
• “You're a saint who sins, but you're not unrighteous. And guess what? He would like you to learn that you who… are dead to sin, are now alive in Christ to righteousness.” – Bill Thrall [04:43]
• “The Christian life is not about changing who I used to be into who I ought to be. The Christian life is not a behavioral transformation. It's a death transformation.” – Bill Thrall [10:56]
• “Children of a parent have their parents DNA… that speaks to this righteousness that God puts in us.” – Scott Boyd [12:18]
• “Did you trust Jesus with your sin?… but have you ever trusted him with your life?” – Bill Thrall [13:43]
• “It's about loving people. That's what successful business is about.” – Scott Boyd [18:52]
• “How do you… live into that theology? By believing that I, who am dead to sin, am alive because of God's grace by loving.” – Bill Thrall [20:04]

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Important Timestamps

• 00:22 – Introduction to the episode’s central question: are we sinners or saints?
• 01:04 – The effect of self-view on Christian experience and influence
• 03:13 – Explanation of the “dead to sin” concept and overcoming identity confusion
• 04:41 – How to measure living “dead to sin”: the evidence of love
• 06:18 – The metaphor of “new glasses” and changing perspective
• 09:09 – Scriptural basis from Galatians 2 for a new identity in Christ
• 10:56 – The Christian life as “death transformation,” not just behavioral change
• 12:18 – Analogy of spiritual DNA and its impact on identity
• 13:43 – The call to trust Christ not just with sin, but with one’s life
• 17:07 – Pivoting focus from ending sin to living out true identity in love
• 18:52 – Application: how love shapes leadership and business
• 20:04 – Living into theology by belief and love; the faith “at the tip of the mountain”

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Conclusion

This episode challenges listeners to reconsider their fundamental self-identity as Christians—not as sinners striving and failing, but as saints who, through trust and faith, are dead to sin and alive to love and righteousness. Bill and Scott urge believers to embrace this new reality, allow it to reshape their lives, and let it ripple outwards in love—at home, in business, and in community.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Living Influence. I'm Scott Boyd, your host with my friend and mentor, Bill Thrall. You know, I'd just like to mention I'm still maintaining my lead in our eight year gin rummy game.

[B]

Oh, should you start with that?

[A]

I just thought I'd start with that.

[B]

Thank you very, very much.

[A]

You know, we've been talking about how our view of ourselves affects our influence. And this week we're going to keep going. We're on a topic of how do I go from sinner, the view of myself, that I'm a sinner, to being dead to sin. You know, a lot of us can be in Christ, we can be Christians, we can be saved, but yet still have a wrong view of ourself that really makes a difference. We can still think that we're a sinner. And you're not. You are not a sinner. And thinking you are robs you of an opportunity to experience the joy that it's set before us.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

So welcome to Living Influence. Bill. Good place to start, right?

[B]

Absolutely. Good to be back. I was thinking of what you just said because it's a theme we're going to talk about a lot because it's missed so much. You know, tragically, if as a Christian, I still see myself as a sinner, then sin is my dominant. My dominant subject I deal with. And I've convinced myself that I'm unrighteous still. But if I believe, if I'm able to trust what we've been talking about, what the Bible says, that I'm really a saint, then you know what happens? I become preoccupied with love. And when I become preoccupied with love, I discover something. I actually am righteous. Yeah, I actually am righteous.

[A]

And that's. That's the amazing journey, isn't it?

[B]

Oh, it's. It's so amazing. And so many people we talk to just look at us and they go, what do you mean a saint? What do you mean? No, sin is, you know, and I, and I, and I say, because this is what this podcast is about, it's like, is it really true that because I'm a saint that I'm actually dead to sin?

[A]

Right.

[B]

What happened that God was able to accomplish that in my behalf? I think it requires a bit of review.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Remember that Adam sinned, and the minute he sinned, he became spiritually dead, separated from God. He recognized his nakedness. We've already had that conversation about his shame. He tried to cover his nakedness. We call that sin management. And God redeemed their sin with the skin of an animal because blood was shed. That's a familiar story. We've talked about that a lot.

[A]

Yeah. And then just to note the sin management, because I think it's really significant when you think sin management's the answer. I gotta work on my sin. I become self centered. And in my self centeredness, I quit actually being able to notice others.

[B]

Amen. Good. Well said. Well said. So that was Adam's experience. But guess what? What about our experience? Me, you. You know, we were actually born in sin. And we discovered pretty quickly that we had no resolution to the sin. We were separated from God. We were seduced by the law. We demonstrate our unrighteousness multiple times. That's our experience. But then something else can happen. We can actually come to a faith in Jesus Christ. We can actually be born into Christ. We can born into the family of God. We can be with God, we can be under grace. We can live into the righteousness that is ours. We can know that Christ is in us and he's the solution to our sin. But today's topic is this. And we in Christ are dead to sin. That's who we are. That's my new identity. And I know the minute I make those statements, people say, well, what about the sin that I do? Before you get trapped in the sin that you do, please just hear this out. You who are now dead to sin have been made alive into righteousness. So, so often what happens, Scott, is we get trapped in this. Well, dead to sin, but I'm still sinning. And we miss the whole reality of what's going on.

[A]

Aren't I a sinner if I'm still sinning?

[B]

Exactly. And the answer is, tell you what you are. You're a saint who sins, but you're not righteous. And guess what? He would like you to learn that you who were dead, who are dead to sin, are now alive in Christ to righteousness. So how would I measure that I'm actually dead to sin? By how well I live into the righteousness that I have in Christ, Always expressing itself in love. Let me say that again. How would I ever, as a believer, come to be convinced that I'm dead to sin when I am, recognize that I who am loved of God become a lover of others because I am righteous? It just let me say that again. How would I know that I'm dead to sin?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I, who am alive, am going to do something I couldn't do when I was dead. Yeah, I couldn't think of you. But why would I Think of you. Why would a Christian have a love for others? Because we love, because he first loved us. Amen. But we have a love for others because we are not who we used to be. It's like what really happened. What really happened is I actually did die in Christ to who I once was.

[A]

Yeah. And you hear a lot of people. I think, actually, I think we all have experienced this, where when we became a Christian, it was as if you got a new pair of glasses and all of a sudden you could see the leaves on the tree.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

Everything looked different.

[B]

Everything.

[A]

And I mean, for me, it happened in college where I really became awakened to. To Jesus.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

And a relationship that you could have with him. But now, in my 60s. You're in your 80s. But everyone I know has had that experience dampened, had that experience dulled. Yeah.

[B]

Right. And let's add to that. And because the dominant theology you were taught. But in that delightful moment of having on new glasses, the very churches that you went to immediately reminded you that you were still a sinner.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And the minute you were reminded that you were still a sinner, the habitual habits that you always experienced were easy to do because you knew how to do them. Scott, think with me for a minute. What if in that early beginning of your reality, somebody would have said to you, you know what, Scott? You ain't who you used to be. Do you know you're new in Christ? Do you know you're actually dead to sin? Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could start teaching you how to love? Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could start teaching you how to be loved? Yeah. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we knew that being loved and loving actually causes us to sin less? Wouldn't that. But that's not the message most of us got when, in our delight, we walked into a community of people who were dominant, predominantly still struggling with their sin issues. And we identified with them because that's the only thing we knew. Nobody.

[A]

It just totally connects me to when I found the question in Galatians 2. Galatians 2. 19. But if, in my endeavor to be crucified with Christ, that's what we're talking about, to be dead. Dead to sin. If my endeavor to be crucified with Christ, I too am found to be a sinner, is Christ then a servant of sin? And it goes on. Certainly not. For if I rebuild what I tore down, I'll prove myself to be a transgressor. And that's where I think we're talking about that with different language.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

If I rebuild what I tore down, what did I tear down? I tore down. I tore down the law. The law no longer will define me because Jesus defines me.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

Through what he did on the cross.

[B]

What got torn down? You know what, Scott? This is the reality, that truth. And this reality, what got torn down was who I used to be.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And my dependency on the law now. So let's rebuild, Scott. Who you used to be. Let's rebuild who you used to be.

[A]

No.

[B]

Why would I want to build on that foundation? I know that foundation. I've experienced that foundation. I know the consequences, the behavior of that foundation. Why would I want to build on it again? And before we both answer it, I would say this partly because I don't even yet believe there's a new foundation, because I'm still trying to live my Christian life on the old foundation. Because no one has taught me yet that I have a new foundation. I have a new reality. And in that new reality, I am dead to who I was. We haven't got it in this podcast, but this is true. I'm actually, as you just said, I'm actually dead to the law. It no longer has authority over me. And I'm dead to self. I'm dead to those things. But who's teaching me? That's what we're trying to get to, is how do I learn to live into my new reality of who I am, of who I am? Why do I keep. We probably have said this in maybe 15 times already in our podcast, but the Christian life is not about changing who I used to be into who I ought to be. The Christian life is not a behavioral transformation. It's a death transformation. I literally, literally died in Christ, but I'm alive in Christ. In these podcasts that we're doing together, let's enjoy talking about what it means to be alive in Christ. Let's come to the grips of what it is that I have because I'm in Him. But we didn't want to ignore the place that we have discovered. Many Christians are living. Many Christians are still living in this reality that they think that they are still who they used to be, a sinner. And the thought of being dead to sin is beyond their comprehension. But if that's beyond their comprehension, so is the thought of being alive to righteousness.

[A]

Right. I love how I've heard you equate being a child of God, which Jesus makes us. Yes, we trust in Jesus Christ, that he's our Savior, and He's God and his work on Calvary. We become children of God, children of a parent have their parents DNA.

[B]

Amen. Amen.

[A]

And that speaks to this righteousness that God puts in us. Is that it? I mean, it's like we keep repeating this. How do you view yourself? Like, is that all there is?

[B]

Yeah. Right.

[A]

Well, it's just. It's interesting. I remember a while back reminiscing and watching information about Billy Graham. And you listen to Billy Graham and you never listen to Billy Graham where he didn't give an invitation to become a Christian.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

And the more you listen to Billy Graham, the more you realize he's actually not saying that much. He's just saying this one little thing. And he said it well, and he said it well, but it was this one little thing that is like, everything.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

It's like we have a logo for our website and the podcast, if you see it on YouTube. And our logo is this upside down mountain. And it's got a summit, a little point at the very. And we've turned the mountain upside down. And the reason we turn the mountain upside down is God starts with, like, changing you fundamentally completely right at the spot right here.

[B]

Amen. Amen. Well said.

[A]

It's to begin to believe that.

[B]

Absolutely. Let's lead into that for just a minute.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What does that mean, to believe that? You know, it's like so many of us, I say this to a lot of Christians. Did you trust Jesus with your sin? Yes. Yeah, I know he's my Savior, but have you ever trusted him with your life? What?

[A]

What does that even mean?

[B]

What does that even mean? Trusted Jesus with my life? Do I understand that? The Jesus I trusted as my Savior at the cross gave me a new life. Could I trust him with that life if I could trust him with that sin? The same word at the bottom of that upside down mountain is that word trust. If I can trust my Savior with my sin, can I trust that Savior with my life?

[A]

What if he makes me do something I don't want to do?

[B]

That's. How many times have I heard that?

[A]

I know, right?

[B]

How many times have I heard that from people?

[A]

And it's like, I'm not sure I can trust him exactly.

[B]

And it's like, oh, Scott, you hit it right on the. So here's this deal. What if he asked me to do something I don't want to do? I'll tell you what he is asking. He's asking to be your God. And when you have that fear that he might ask you, what you're really saying is, I'm afraid I won't be God anymore. I'm afraid I won't be in control of me. I'm afraid I won't be in control of my tomorrows. And then I always ask this question, and how well are you doing with you? And it doesn't take them long to admit to me how screwed up they are. So it's just. It's an argument that they haven't thought through. Because it's like, could I trust God, as I said a while ago, could I trust God that I've been born anew in Christ? Could I trust God that I'm a child of God? Could I trust God that I am no longer under the law, but I'm under grace? Could I trust God that I am in Christ and Christ is in me? Could I trust God that He is the solution to everything that I need to be? Now, what we just did is we transferred the focus of being my sin to being dead to sin because of who God says I am. Now we will in another podcast. We're not going to ignore the question, will I still sin? But I think that that question of focus is where I want to just kind of have us both just think through at the end of this podcast. What is this focus? The focus is the significance of Christ in me. Can I let that be my focus?

[A]

Yeah. Rather than my focus is the solution to my sin is to struggle. And so instead of my focus being on ceasing a negative.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Trying to be something I feel I'm not, my focus begins to be on.

[B]

Who I really am, who I really am, who he has really made me. Now, if I could believe that I am in fact dead to sin. Amen. A thousand times, but don't end it there. Because I, who died in Christ to sin, am now alive to righteousness. If we don't get that part, we'll still make sin the issue in this new reality. These those of us who are dead to sin, our new reality is to live into the reality of our new life and let that reality of our new life begin here in expressing our love to each other, just as he loved us. So it's like, can I live even thinking about that? Because as you know, we both meet with a lot of leaders, and so often they just look at. Look at us and they go, you mean you're trying to tell me that because Jesus Christ took me to Calvary and that I died in him, that I'm dead to sin? And My old life is over, that I have a new life that expresses itself in love? Yes. Well, wouldn't our emphases then be on loving each other? Wouldn't our emphasis be on letting God love us? Wouldn't our emphasis be on letting each other love us? What if. What if even for a moment, we took the focus out of the fear we have for each other's sin to a focus of the love we have for each other?

[A]

And this, like so for me, this has applied so, so directly to my business. And when I meet other successful business people, whether they know they've happened on this truth in this path or not, they've happened on this truth that people are amazing. And it's about loving people. Amen. That's what successful business is about.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Especially successful small business. I mean, you can go in the corporate world and find politics and find, you know, power plays and things, but when you find somebody that's like, started a business from the ground up and they've started it with one employee and now they have 100, they're going to have a story about loving people.

[B]

Absolutely. Well said.

[A]

And it is this. It is the significance of what Christ has done that enables us to do that. Amen.

[B]

So it's like, how do I live in to a theology that teaches me that I'm dead to sin?

[A]

So how do you exactly.

[B]

You live into that theology? By believing that I, who am dead to sin, am alive because of God's grace by loving.

[A]

It's that little tip on the mountain.

[B]

It's that tip on the mountain.

[A]

It's called faith, by the way.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Thanks for joining us on this week's episode of Living Influence. Every once in a while, I got to put the plug in to hit that, like button. Share it with someone else. Hit subscribe. This message is transformational and how it can give joy to a person, how it can give joy to a community of people. And we're really excited to bring it to you. Thanks for being here. Thank you for listening to the podcast. We're really glad that you're here. We'd love to know that you're here. And so if you could leave a comment, we would appreciate that. But more importantly, if you know someone that should listen to this or hear it, we would love for you to share it with them. Thanks again.