Grace is the Key to All Loving Relationships

Summary

Living Influence with Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd
Episode Summary: "Grace is the Key to All Loving Relationships"
Release Date: July 24, 2025

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Introduction

In the July 24, 2025 episode of Living Influence with Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd, hosts Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd delve deep into the transformative power of grace in fostering loving relationships. Co-hosted alongside Grace, the episode emphasizes understanding grace not just as a theological concept but as a lived experience that can revolutionize personal and communal interactions.

Defining Grace

The episode opens with Grace posing a fundamental question: “Could you define the word grace?” (00:03). This sets the stage for an extensive exploration of grace, indicating that it has become a prolonged series due to its depth and complexity. Grace outlines their initial discussions:

• Grace's Perspective: Grace emphasizes the expansiveness of grace, questioning whether it is perceived in a limiting or expansive manner as depicted in scripture. She asserts, “Grace began with the Trinity. It began before creation. It wasn't something God invented because of man's sin. It's actually how God treats himself” (00:24). This positions grace as an intrinsic aspect of God's nature and His interaction with creation.

• Bill’s Insight: Bill concurs, reinforcing the foundational role of grace in divine interactions (00:19).

Personal Journeys to Faith

The conversation transitions to personal narratives of faith:

• Bill’s Experience: Bill shares that his journey to faith was “a day,” highlighting a singular transformative moment.

• Grace’s Journey: In contrast, Grace describes her path as a “journey,” influenced by witnessing someone else’s faith, which ignited her own spiritual curiosity (01:04). This distinction underscores the varied ways individuals encounter and embrace grace.

Grace as an Experience

Scott Boyd interjects, emphasizing that grace is more about experiential knowledge rather than mere intellectual understanding (01:36). Grace agrees, urging listeners to introspect on whether they are actively experiencing grace in their lives and exploring ways to cultivate that experience if they are not (01:58).

Grace and Righteousness

A significant portion of the discussion centers on grace as the foundation for personal sanctification:

• Grace on Righteousness: Grace boldly states, “It's by grace that God's made us righteous” (02:14). This challenges common misconceptions that righteousness is solely viewed through the lens of sin and redemption.

• Bill’s Affirmation: Bill supports this notion, reinforcing the idea that grace fundamentally alters a believer’s standing and nature (02:54).

Grace elaborates on this by distinguishing between superficial acceptance (“holding up a colored acetate”) and a transformative change brought about by Jesus’ sacrifice, which fundamentally alters our being (02:18).

Trusting in Grace

The dialogue shifts to the personal struggle of trusting grace:

• Grace’s Metaphor: Grace likens trusting God’s grace to “jumping off a cliff,” illustrating the leap of faith required to fully embrace grace without relying on personal effort to achieve righteousness (02:55). This metaphor highlights the vulnerability and risk inherent in truly trusting divine grace.

• Bill’s Reflection: Bill echoes this sentiment, connecting trust in God with the experience of His love. He states, “Love is interesting in this way... the degree to which I trust you is the degree to which I can experience your love, no matter how much love you have” (04:25).

Authentic Relationships Through Grace

Grace introduces the central theme of the episode: “Grace is the key to all my relationships of love” (00:03). The hosts explore how grace influences interpersonal dynamics:

• Bill’s Observation: Bill references John 13:34-35, emphasizing Jesus’ command to “love one another just as I have loved you” (03:44). He connects this to the necessity of trusting God to fully experience His love, stating, “I will never experience the love of God until I trust” (04:23).

• Grace’s Illustration: Grace uses the analogy of a mask to describe inauthentic interactions. She explains that without trust, relationships become performances aimed at being liked rather than genuine connections (05:13). This concept underscores the importance of vulnerability in receiving and giving love.

God’s Intentional Love

Bill expounds on the nature of God’s love:

• Process of Meeting Needs: Bill introduces the idea that “Love is the process of meeting needs,” explaining that human needs are intentionally designed by God so that individuals can experience love through their fulfillment (09:29).

• Need for Security: He discusses the universal need for security and how broken commitments in human relationships often stem from unmet needs, contrasting this with God’s unwavering commitment to provide security (09:05).

Overcoming Insecurity Through Love

The conversation addresses the societal and personal challenges in fully embracing love:

• Cultural Misconceptions: Grace critiques cultural icons like James Bond as representations of self-sufficiency, which foster the illusion that one can thrive without authentic relationships (10:16).

• Biblical Example: Bill references Jesus washing the apostles’ feet (John 13) to illustrate the necessity of accepting love to experience true righteousness, noting that demanding perfection (“make me perfect”) is counterproductive (11:13).

Practical Applications of Grace in Relationships

The hosts provide practical examples of how grace can transform relationships:

• Bill’s Story: Bill recounts an encounter with a young woman who distrusted men. By extending genuine trust and love, he helped her overcome her insecurities, leading her to embrace trust and experience healing through love (15:26). This anecdote exemplifies the healing power of grace-driven relationships.

• Commitment and Trust: Emphasizing commitment, Bill connects trust in God’s love with the ability to form secure, loving relationships, stating, “Do I trust the God of love by letting him meet my needs? He says to us, I will never leave you or forsake you” (09:05).

Grace vs. Sin Management

A critical theological discussion differentiates between grace and sin management:

• Sin Management Critique: Bill explains that sin management focuses on reducing sin through effort, which can lead to burnout and a diminished sense of grace. He contrasts this with a grace-based approach that emphasizes believing in one’s inherent godliness to naturally lead to a sinless life (19:04).

• Grace’s Foundation: Grace reiterates that “Grace is the basis for all my relationships of love” (20:36), highlighting the foundational role of grace in both receiving and giving love.

Conclusion

The episode concludes with a reaffirmation of grace’s transformative power:

• Transformation Through Love: Both hosts agree that grace and love are interdependent, with grace enabling individuals to receive love, which in turn empowers them to love others authentically and selflessly (20:42).

• Invitation to Listeners: Grace extends an invitation to listeners to lay down their “masks” and embrace the love that grace offers, emphasizing that such an embrace is truly transformational (21:32).

Notable Quotes

• Grace on Grace Definition: “Grace began with the Trinity. It began before creation. It wasn't something God invented because of man's sin. It's actually how God treats himself” (00:24).

• Bill on Trust and Love: “The degree to which I trust you is the degree to which I can experience your love, no matter how much love you have” (04:25).

• Grace on Authentic Relationships: “It's not about knowing. It's about the experience” (01:59).

• Bill on Meeting Needs: “Love is the process of meeting needs” (09:29).

• Grace on Receiving Love: “If we're going to have love to give, you have to receive it” (12:00).

• Bill on Grace vs. Sin Management: “Sinning less will never lead me to loving more, but loving will always lead me to sinning less” (20:19).

Time Stamps Reference

• 00:03 – Introduction to grace as key to relationships
• 00:24 – Grace defines grace from a theological perspective
• 01:04 – Personal journeys to faith
• 01:58 – Grace emphasizes grace as an experience
• 02:14 – Grace on grace and righteousness
• 02:55 – Metaphor of trusting grace as jumping off a cliff
• 03:44 – Reading of John 13:34-35
• 04:25 – Discussion on trust and love
• 05:13 – Grace introduces the mask analogy
• 09:05 – God’s commitment to never forsake
• 10:16 – Cultural misconceptions about self-sufficiency
• 11:13 – Jesus washing the apostles’ feet
• 15:26 – Bill shares a personal story of trust and healing
• 19:04 – Discussion on grace vs. sin management
• 20:36 – Grace on relationships of love
• 21:32 – Invitation to embrace transformational love

Final Thoughts

This episode of Living Influence masterfully intertwines theological insights with practical applications, illustrating how grace serves as the cornerstone for authentic, loving relationships. By sharing personal stories and biblical teachings, Bill Thrall, Scott Boyd, and Grace provide listeners with both the understanding and the tools to embrace grace in their daily lives, fostering deeper connections and personal transformation.

Transcript

[Grace]

Grace is the key to all my relationships of love. Welcome to Living Influence. Well, Bill, we're continuing this conversation on grace. It's like a much longer series than we imagined when it's like we got a question from someone. Could you define the word grace?

[Bill]

Yeah, right.

[Grace]

I was like, well, yeah, let's take a couple of months to do that.

[Bill]

Exactly.

[Grace]

Just to review. We've been. We started by talking about how. How expansive grace was. We asked the question, do I think of grace in a way that's limiting, or do I think of grace with the expansiveness that it's described in scripture? You know? And so we started with. Grace began with the Trinity. It began before creation. It wasn't something God invented because of man's sin. It's actually how God treats himself. Grace is the realm where God treats himself with his best. Grace is the means for my salvation.

[Bill]

Amen.

[Grace]

Bill and I shared our stories about how we came to faith. For Bill, it was a day. For me, it was a journey. I don't know when the day was. We found Jesus through a person who had already found Jesus, and that person was different. And something about that person sparked something in me. Sparked something in you to. Cause I want to know more about why that person's that way. It's really interesting how that.

[Scott]

That.

[Grace]

That is so true. Grace is an experience. It's not something. We're doing a podcast, you know, and we're. We're talking about grace, so we're talking about knowledge, but. But we're really wanting you to consider, am I having this experience of grace in my life? And if I'm not, how. How could I do that?

[Amen]

Amen.

[Grace]

Right? Because it's not about knowing. It's about the experience. And so we moved on from grace as the means to my salvation. And we. We started talking about grace is the basis for my maturing as a saint. And you made some bold statements there.

[Bill]

It's.

[Grace]

It's by grace that God's made us righteous.

[Amen]

Amen.

[Grace]

That's maybe one of the hardest things for us to believe might be true. You hear people talk about, because it's in scripture, you've been made righteous. And people will say, well, it's because God looks at you through Jesus. So he holds up this colored acetate, that's Jesus, and he says, oh, you're. Yeah, I see you as righteous now, but we know you're a sinner, but I'm looking at you through Jesus, so you're not. And now we're actually saying there's there's actually something Jesus did in the cross, in the resurrection, in our salvation, that changed us at a fundamental level.

[Bill]

Absolutely.

[Grace]

I think that's been my experience. It's like there's. Can I actually begin to imagine that might be true? Can I actually begin to trust what God says is true about me? I describe it as jumping off a cliff because it's like, you mean I can't use the law to make myself better? I can't use my effort to make myself better. I have to do this, like, white knuckle it with no guardrails. But there is a risk that you take.

[Bill]

Sure there is.

[Grace]

With this message. And so today we're going to talk about. Grace is the key to all my relationships of love. We've talked about love a lot already. But maybe we should start with the scripture in John 13. Let me just read it.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Grace]

And then I'm going to let you. Let you jump in a new commandment I give to you today, that you love one another just as I have loved you. You also are to love one another. By this, all people will know that you are my disciples if you have love for one another.

[Amen]

Amen.

[Bill]

You know, as I keep reviewing that scripture in my mind, we're to love one another as he loved us. I want to pause right there. At the very beginning of our talking about grace, we talked about the fact that God is love.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Bill]

Now, it's an interesting truism. I will never experience the love of God until I trust the God of love.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Bill]

I will never experience the love of God until I trust. Now that's a truism, by the way. It's a truism here. Love. Love is interesting in this way. Years ago we wrote this, that the degree to which I trust you is the degree to which I can experience your love, no matter how much love you have. For me.

[Grace]

I really had a hard time when you first said that. I first heard that statement. Talking about a mask helped me understand this concept better. A mask is an effort. A mask is a pretending, or maybe a trying, or I'm trying to be something that I think I should be. But I'm not right in my relationship with anybody. So let's say in my relationship with you, I'm into. I find myself performing. I want you to like me. And so I want to say the right thing. I want to be the right kind of person. I want to laugh at the right moment. I want to take the conversation to an impressive place. You know, all of this I'm doing All this work, you compliment me and I think, yeah, but if you really knew me.

[Bill]

Well said.

[Grace]

If this wasn't in between us, if you really knew me, you wouldn't say that. And that began my understanding of, if I don't trust you, I cannot receive love from you, no matter how much love you have for me.

[Amen]

Amen.

[Bill]

Well said. And let's stay there for a little bit. The God who loves me is full of grace, and he lives for my best. He functions for my best. I'll never experience his best until I trust Him. Now, Jesus, you just read it again. In John, he said, I want you and Scott to love each other just like I love you guys. I said, wait a minute. What does that mean? Oh, the God of love intentionally does something. He directs his love to my needs. He directs his love to my needs. So years ago, we coined this phrase. Love is the process of meeting needs. Every human being on earth is created by God, who is love, with needs so they can experience love. This little table that's between us here, it was designed by somebody. But you know what? That table was not designed to be loved. Yeah, I can say, I love that table. And you would say, he's weirder than I thought he was. But the table wasn't designed. It can't experience love. The designer did not make it capable being loved. But my designer made me capable of being loved because he is love. And he wanted me to experience him through love. So he created these needs in me, and they're amazing. And every day, every one of us gets up with this profound need for security. Everybody does. I. I grew up. Don't mind admitting it. It was hard to live through it, but very insecure. Back to that lie, I believed I didn't matter. Made me very insecure. So. So falling in love with grace and having somebody love me. But back to God for a minute.

[Grace]

And you said, falling in love with grace.

[Bill]

My wife.

[Grace]

Your wife.

[Bill]

Thank you. Sorry. I did fall in love with God's grace, too, but that was a great get. Thank you, Scott. That was good. So this is my reality. Do I trust the God of love by letting him meet my needs? He says to us, I will never leave you or forsake you. That's his commitment. Do you know what. How we meet each other's need for security through commitment.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Bill]

Do you know why marriages are such a mess? You know why people are divorced all the time? Do you know why children are living without parents? Because somebody violated a commitment. Because somebody no longer could be trusted to give Me, security. But that's not my God. My God is able to do that.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Bill]

You know what God says? Here's something about, about God. He says, I love you and, and you, you are lovable and I accept you. And you can't earn what I just said. You can't earn it. I am loved, God, because I am loved. Because I am loved.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Bill]

We spend so much time knowing the scripture tells us, as Christians were to love one another. So we use the language of I love you, but we never engage with each other in the process of meeting needs.

[Grace]

Yeah, well, our culture kind of goes against it, doesn't it?

[Bill]

Oh like horrifically.

[Grace]

My stepdad loved the James Bond movies. I mean, and what's the James Bond movie? It's a, it's a character, right, who actually is good at everything.

[Bill]

Right.

[Grace]

There's nothing he's not.

[Bill]

He just happens to be handsome and.

[Grace]

He happens to be good looking and he happens to, to know how to do everything. You know, like fly a plane, run a race car, do whatever it is. Submarine. He knows it all and it's him against the world. Which leads me to. We, we want God. We want God to fix us. You know, I, I think there's a. I don't know if this is a good spot, but when Jesus washed the apostles feet, Peter, the first thing Peter said is, not my feet, Lord, I'm going to wash yours. So you, no, you don't love me. I love you. You're the, you're the Christ. And Jesus says, if you don't let.

[Scott]

Me.

[Grace]

You'Ll have no share with me. And so the next interesting thing is then Peter says, well then not just my feet, but my whole body. I mean, make me all the way clean. Make me perfect, make me like James Bond. And Jesus says, no, all that's necessary is your feet.

[Amen]

Amen.

[Grace]

And he leaves us in this place where he made us righteous, but he didn't make us without needs.

[Amen]

Amen. Amen.

[Bill]

Thank you. That's a great gift. And we don't want to forget that. It's because we have needs that we can practice love.

[Grace]

Right?

[Bill]

Which is the evidence of our being righteous.

[Grace]

And we have to receive love.

[Bill]

You have to receive it.

[Grace]

If we're going to have love to.

[Bill]

Give, you have to. Because God, we love God because he first loved us. I heard that preach my whole life. Very few people understand the reality of what it takes to let somebody intentionally move in to your deeds being met. Yeah, there's a, there's a church in Revelation, chapter three. It's called the church, Laodicea. I just want to read. This fits what we're talking about. I just want to read this verse. It says for you. Say, he's talking about the church. This is their words for you. Say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I have need of nothing. Wow.

[Grace]

It's like James Bond.

[Bill]

Exactly, exactly. And he says, you missed it just a little bit. Let me describe you differently. You don't actually realize this is true about you. You are wretched, pitiable, poor, blinded, naked. Well, thank you, Jesus. Well, that's a precious. That's a precious note. He's saying to them, listen, when you live with the declaration, you need no one. Tragically, you are making the statement that I choose to not be loved when I live in the mindset that I don't have to trust anyone. I'm living in the mindset that I'm choosing to not be loved. And then in that church, Laodicea, Jesus does something. I just described your reality. I stand at the door and knock. I stand at the door and knock. I'd love to have a meal with you. I just love the wisdom of Jesus, what he's doing. He's saying, listen, I know your reality. But you know what? I can't touch your reality until you give me permission. I can't touch your reality until you give me permission. God never imposes his love on us, right? Never. He says, I said the door. Knock. Now, sometimes what we do, tragically, in the church is when we see the needs of the people in the church, what we want to do is we want to move to fixing them.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Bill]

And Jesus wants to move to a different direction. He wants to move to loving them.

[Grace]

And he always. He's always loving the person, always loving the person.

[Bill]

And in loving the person, he's doing something. He's meeting the need. When I don't have a commitment of love, I live very insecurely.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Bill]

And when I live very insecurely, there are attributes about that. The main one is I live in fear.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Bill]

Wait, wait, wait, wait. A couple of weeks ago, we were talking about this with our audience, and I said that love is the great healer. Humanity has a lot of psychological and emotional dysfunction because humanity's been beat up a lot by itself. But help. Something happens when life is hard. I learned to not trust. And I get sick.

[Grace]

Because I'm not loved.

[Bill]

Because I'm not loved. So what if Jesus, in his wisdom, was saying to us, you just read it in John. Love each other just as I have loved you. And you know what? It's going to help you get well. It's going to help you get well. I have watched this. God, I have watched it.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Bill]

I've watched it in individuals. I've watched it in the community of the church that God graced us to be a part of. A story comes to my mind of this young woman who came to see me because her friend said she should.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Amen]

And.

[Bill]

And. And coming to see me because her friend said she should. She just happened to tell me she was 29, and she made this bold statement. I don't trust men. I don't trust you. And she literally took her chair and moved it as far from me in my office as she could move it.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Bill]

And I believed her. And I said that to her. I said, I believe you. She said, what? I said, believe me. You don't trust me. And I said, would you like to come over to our house next Wednesday night and have dinner with my wife and children and me? She said, what'd you say? I said, would you like to come over to our house? Well, why would you do that? Because you didn't trust me. I believe you. There's a big principle in there, Scott. We want to learn as Christians. We've got to learn to earn people's trust so they can experience our love. Just to boldly stand up and say, hey, my name is Bill Throw. You can trust me. That's a joke.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Bill]

Now, that young lady needed somebody she could trust and to her credit, encourage. She showed up for dinner. Yeah, she showed up for dinner more than once. Over time, her ability to let my wife and my sweatshirt. Little then. And my kids and me love her. Over time, she regained the ability to trust. And this is A girl at 29 who told me in that process, I hate men. I am never going to get married. And she was wrong. She learned to let a man love her.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Bill]

She got married. Two wonderful children. Love heals. See, grace is the basis. It's actually something. It gives me the experience of love.

[Scott]

Right.

[Bill]

And I desperately need to be loved. I'm. I've already said it. I've experienced a lot of insecurity. I struggle so much to be acceptable. Scott, I loved your mask illustration. Just that. That reality of what do I need to do to. To be my best for you? Because you know what we've learned? It's easier for us to work hard at becoming someone than it is to trust someone.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Bill]

It's just harder and easier. So. So as we. As we Think about. About this. This subject. God is love. Can I trust the God who is love so he could meet my needs in the process of being loved?

[Amen]

Yeah.

[Bill]

I become a lover.

[Grace]

Right.

[Bill]

And the motivation. This is interesting. In one of our recent podcasts, you made that statement that how do I get to become others focused? I'm always about me. How does that transfer? Let me just say this. No one will ever think about someone else until they experience the love of someone else.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Bill]

We will. Always put me first. You know what love does? Love always puts someone better.

[Grace]

Changes our focus.

[Bill]

Changes focus. It puts my focus on you. This idea. And I'm going to repeat you now for a minute here. Over the course of our time together, we're going to spend a lot of time talking about what I call sin management, that theology that brings effort and robs people of grace. And one of the reasons it. One of the ways sin management does that is that it tells people sin less and you'll become more godly instead of teaching people believe that you are godly so you'll sin less.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Bill]

And just as you said either last week or the week before, sinning less will never lead me to loving more.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Bill]

But loving will always lead me to sinning less.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Bill]

That's called grace, God. That's called grace.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Grace]

Grace is. It is the basis for all my relationships of love.

[Bill]

Exactly.

[Grace]

It. It's that way because until I receive love, I don't have any love to give.

[Bill]

Exactly.

[Amen]

Amen.

[Bill]

A thousand times.

[Grace]

It's an amazing journey. It changes everything. Love heals everything. Love transforms. It's interesting. We got to this message and we were getting ready to prepare for what we're gonna say. And we're like, we've already said all this stuff. What are we gonna say this time? But, you know, here we are, and it's the end of our podcast, and I think we could continue.

[Bill]

Yeah, it's a lot to learn.

[Grace]

Grace is the basis in which we receive love. We let God love us first.

[Amen]

Amen.

[Grace]

We'd love for you to learn how to stop running on your hamster wheel and lay your mask down.

[Amen]

Amen.

[Grace]

And receive love because it truly is transformational.

[Bill]

Thank you.

[Amen]

Amen.

[Grace]

Thanks for joining us today. Today we're going to continue on these conversations of grace. We're almost done. We've got a few more to do. We'll see you next week. Thank you for listening to the podcast. We're really glad that you're here. We'd love to know that you're here. And so if you could leave a comment, we would appreciate that. But more importantly, if you know someone that should listen to this or hear it, we would love for you to share it with them. Thanks again.