A (3:33)

Let's talk about that at least, because it's real easy to. I love your definition of humility. Is trusting God with me.

B (3:40)

Yes.

A (3:40)

But let's just explain it a little bit more. It wasn't readily available to me on going, oh, yeah, that's right. The first time I heard you say it. Yeah.

B (3:50)

Thank you. I can't personally put enough emphasis on the critical word trust. I can't put enough emphasis on it. It is the key operational word in all relationships. And yet we spend so little time teaching Christians how to trust. We spend so little time with Christians understanding. I mean, I've had people who have been Christians for many, many years in cohorts say, I don't trust God. Thank you very much, Mr. Smith. Isn't that foundational?

A (4:23)

Yeah. And isn't it interesting? It was foundational in the garden.

B (4:28)

Yeah.

A (4:30)

Did. Did God really say that?

B (4:33)

Or is it.

A (4:33)

Is it really?

B (4:34)

Thank you.

A (4:35)

You know more. You'll be like God, so you should eat this fruit so you'll know more.

B (4:39)

Yeah. Instead of trusting.

A (4:41)

Instead of trusting.

B (4:42)

Example.

A (4:42)

Yeah.

B (4:43)

So we come back to this. Am I. Am I maturing? Back to your question. How would I know? I'm maturing because I'm. I'm trusting God with my sin, trusting God with my person, and I'm trusting God with his purposes in me. I love to say it this way. I'm trusting God with my future. With my future.

A (5:12)

That probably scares people.

B (5:13)

It's a tremendous scare. And I say this carefully. Nobody should ever assume that people know how to trust God. Nobody should ever assume that. Nobody should ever assume that once a person becomes a Christian by trusting Jesus with their sin, that person now trusts God. Be really, really careful. It's a process.

A (5:45)

Yeah. I remember being fearful of trusting God with my future.

B (5:49)

There you go.

A (5:50)

Like, what if he makes me do something I don't want to do?

B (5:55)

Exactly. Exactly.

A (5:57)

What if I'm now disobeying him because I'm not doing what he told me to do?

B (6:01)

Right.

A (6:02)

I don't even want to ask the question, Scott.

B (6:05)

I've only heard that 10,000 times. But it's so well said. Because here's the deal. Trusting God gets kind of nebulous. I have to keep making this statement. What if one of the reasons that Jesus became a man was so he could go to Calvary. But what if one of the reasons that Jesus became a man is so that I would know the person of God? Yeah. What if we are able to teach Christians to trust Jesus and when they do, they will be trusting God. We make God this nebulous authority in heaven that we're all afraid of. And Jesus comes, lays aside his authority so that we can know his person, so that I can trust the person of Jesus who is God with, with me. And when I do, and your statements are accurate, and when I do, because I trust his person, I will learn to not be afraid of his purpose. So that when I am afraid of his purpose, it means I have not yet trusted his person. So that's what happens, is so many young believers.

A (7:34)

That's why it's a process.

B (7:36)

Absolutely, Scott. And so many young believers are kind of guided into doing things for God as, as an evidence of their Christianity.

A (7:47)

Or even worse, guided into doing what the pastor wants them to do.

B (7:53)

And call that God and call that God.

A (7:56)

No, truly, I mean, that's so many people been hurt that way.

B (7:59)

That's a super negative double negative. So it's like, what does Bill mean when he says trusting God? He means trusting Jesus, the person of Jesus with the person of Bill. Because when I trust his person, I will not be afraid of his purposes. And therefore that becomes foundational. And in this whole area of being Christ centered, that becomes foundational. Because we talked last time about the significance of moving from me centered to other centered. And then when we're mature, we move to purpose centered. We move to the purposes of God being intentionally honored in where we go and what we do and how we do it. And so there's this passage in the living Bible, Galatians, and the message, and it says doing things for God is the opposite of what God wants to do in you. An immature Christian is constantly trying to do something for God.

A (9:13)

Do you get pushback from mature Christians when you say that?

B (9:16)

Oh, absolutely.

A (9:18)

Yeah, I would think that.

B (9:20)

Oh yeah, very much so. So that mature Christians are Christians who have learned to trust what God wants to do in them. And you're right, he may ask us, as he did throughout history, for the individual who is mature to in fact suffer. That's a word. People just want to back away from that. But here's an evidence that we are maturing. One of the great evidences that we are maturing is, is the risks we are taking for the benefit of others. That's one of the great Evidences. Now imagine teaching people to mature to the point where they're willing to suffer for someone else's benefit. But that's what Paul taught. That's what Peter taught.

A (10:14)

Yeah.

B (10:16)

Paul said that I may know him and the fellowship of his suffering. What? Who wants to do that? Well, nobody wants to do that. If they're immature because they're so self centered they can't imagine taking risks for anybody else. And then we start to love each other and we go, man, you're really important to me. I think I'm going to start focusing on you and then imagine maturing to the point where I'm actually willing to take risks for you. Yeah, it's like one of the privileges I have is over these years I get to mentor different individuals. And one of the great delights of my life is when somebody I am mentoring begins to experience a significant influence. Oh, that just blesses me like crazy. But sometimes if we're going to stand alongside people, then we have to be willing to take risks for their benefit. And it sounds like a double message. It's like, yeah, but then what's that going to do to your influence? Here's a good one. How would I know that I'm maturing when what you do becomes more important to me than what I do? That's an evidence of my maturing. So I want to just continue to say this. The mature are able to take risks for the benefit of others because they're willing to have an influence that matters for the benefit of others.

A (12:03)

Yeah, I, I experienced that with, with my oldest son.

B (12:08)

How? Tell us about that.

A (12:10)

So he was taking over running the company and he did that when my late wife was passing away. And, and we would meet and we would talk and I would, I would continue to run into places where I discovered I still had need of affirmation. But in my need for affirmation, I was stealing the affirmation that he needed too.

B (12:36)

Wow. Wow. Good for you. Great.

A (12:38)

And so it looked like a lot of the things I set up in my company were really working. And I was feeling really proud of those things and excited about them, but so was he. And I needed to, I needed to let him feel that. Amen. Because he really was contributing. I mean, he really was. He was doing the heavy lifting and now he's thriving and now he's thriving. And so it's, you do begin to have this other centered and you do begin to see others thrive and you get excited about what they're doing.

B (13:18)

Amen. Well said. And Scott There's a negative potential. What if you hadn't done that? See, what if you would have, in some moment of jealousy, pulled back and demanded to take over more? You would have robbed him of his thriving.

A (13:37)

Yeah, it would have been better.

B (13:38)

You would have robbed him of his thriving. Now, you've said to our audience, you've said to me many times, he's actually doing better.

A (13:45)

Better than.

B (13:47)

Better than you were doing. But that's the point. That's the point. What if those we influence, we were intentional about them doing better than us?

A (13:58)

Yeah.

B (13:59)

Them growing, having more influence.

A (14:01)

And it's more than. Okay.

B (14:04)

It's the right things.

A (14:05)

Yeah. Yeah.

B (14:06)

It's the right thing. So as we think through this, how would I know I'm maturing? I wrote this statement because I am becoming a resource of healing for others.

A (14:19)

Yeah.

B (14:20)

Think about that. How would that happen? We don't say it a lot. We do it our podcast a couple times. But I will say this. Love heals.

A (14:29)

Yeah, it does.

B (14:31)

You know, when. When we intentionally choose to love someone, they're receiving that love has the potential to bring healing to their person. Yeah. And potentially has the ability to open their life and their issues to someone they trust.

A (14:51)

Yeah. Because for me, I mean, surely this happened for you early in your ministry too, because there are people that I've really positively influenced, but I've also wounded them because I've grown along the way.

B (15:04)

Exactly.

A (15:05)

And so it's kind of a. It's a mix. And some of that handoff and that healing. Some of that healing is healing from the wounds I inflicted.

B (15:20)

Good for you to say that. I'll be honest with you. I say to my audiences and my cohorts now, I want them to know I'm a very careful person with my influence because I learned what you just said is true. Some people in the past, in my past, were hurt by me, and that wounds me deeply to have to remember that. But it makes me so much careful. So when somebody today, whoever they are, chooses to trust me, Scott, you cannot believe how careful this man is with what I do to their next.

A (15:58)

I call it playing with live ammunition.

B (16:02)

You're probably right.

A (16:03)

Yeah.

B (16:04)

I mean, you're probably right because that's what it's doing. So I am imagining, and I say I couldn't have imagined. I don't know how many years ago now because I'm old, but I couldn't have imagined for a great portion of my life that the screwed up guy called Bill would one day become a source of healing for others. I couldn't have imagined that, Scott. That was not on my radar, but it has become my reality.

A (16:32)

And let's pause for a moment. So healing comes from being loved?

B (16:36)

Well, absolutely.

A (16:37)

Healing comes from being encouraged to believe what's already true about the person.

B (16:43)

Exactly.

A (16:44)

Yeah. What does it look like when you watch someone heal?

B (16:47)

What happens is even to the point of their continents changing, even to the point their face glows with a joy they didn't have before. So joy is one of the evidences of healing.

A (17:04)

Oh, that's beautiful.

B (17:05)

And so that. How would I know? They're healing because they're experiencing joy. One woman has been in ministry for a long time, and she's. Lots of things happened to her in her life, and she decided to write it all out in a long letter to me. And I think she got scared when she said it to me. What's Bill gonna now do with what I said? And what I did was I processed with her a process of dealing with what happened to her. And I can tell you, I remember the next phone call that we had where I thought I was talking to a totally different woman, just. Even. Even the reflection in her life, in her voice. So what I would say is one of the ways that you can see that people are experiencing healing is they begin to experience joy. And what the joy does is it causes them to kind of literally even glow. That's why I say their continents even changes.

A (18:15)

Yeah. And.

B (18:16)

And both of these women that I worked with over this past year are at a place where neither one of them thought they'd ever be. And they both have been in ministry for many, many years. And I want to say that again, carefully. It doesn't really matter how old you are or how long you've been a Christian. What really matters is that you begin to trust somebody with what's happened to you. And that somebody you trust guides you into a process where you can forgive, to be healed of what happened. I'm going to say that against God. People need to know that forgiveness heals them of what's been done to them, and they no longer have to be identified by their wounding. Yeah, that's a part. Those are like four or five really powerful statements there. But that's what the mature are experiencing, a healing of the wounding. And how would they know it? Because their lives are exhibiting a joy. We talked about this earlier, but I want to just reflect on it. The guy who's talking grew up in an environment spiritual, a Christian environment, where no one ever taught me the damnable results of my hiding. Nobody ever did. And I was becoming self. I mean, I was, I was really, really crashing out emotionally and spiritually and, and so I, what I, what I want to bring that up for is this. No matter what happened yesterday.

A (20:02)

Yeah, this is good.

B (20:03)

God can heal you for your tomorrows. That's the key. People who are deeply wounded have no hope of tomorrow. People who are healing, that's one of the evidences of healing is you begin to think about what could be, begin to have new hope. You begin to think about what could be, see what wounding does. It keeps you trapped in what has been.

A (20:30)

Yeah.

B (20:32)

So as I think about maturing, I'm thinking about a person who is so Christ centered that they're willing to give their life away for the benefit of others. That's what I think of.

A (20:48)

Yeah. So we're stopping at this healing spot.

B (20:51)

Right.

A (20:52)

I think we have a little bit more to go in this process of maturity. We'll see you next week as we finish up the series. Thank you for listening to the podcast. We're really glad that you're here. We'd love to know that you're here. And so if you could leave a comment, we would appreciate that. But more importantly, if you know someone that should listen to this or hear it, we would love for you to share it with them. Thanks again.