How Sin Management Blocks You from Experiencing Love

Summary

Living Influence with Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd

Episode: How Sin Management Blocks You from Experiencing Love
Date: November 6, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this thought-provoking episode, Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd challenge the pervasive concept of “sin management” within Christian communities. They explore how focusing on managing personal sin can shrink lives, foster pride, and ultimately obstruct the experience of God’s unconditional love. Drawing on Scripture, personal stories, and candid reflection, Bill and Scott invite listeners to consider a grace-based theology, rooted in identity as beloved children of God, rather than defining oneself by sin or the struggle to overcome it.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Flawed Theology of Sin Management (00:12 – 04:07)

• Defining Sin Management:
  Bill and Scott unpack a dominant church narrative that Christians are fundamentally sinners, whose primary task is striving to manage their sinfulness.
  • “This concept, this theology that is dominant in the church… is teaching Christians that they are sinners. …their most important issue is how to deal with sin.” – Bill (00:26)
• Outcomes of Sin Management:
  Scott outlines two possible paths: becoming prideful and judgmental, or feeling perpetually inadequate.
  • “One is you’ll make your world really small and you'll be really prideful and judgmental… Or the second is you’ll never be enough.” – Scott (01:23)
• Comparison to Phariseeism:
  Bill likens these outcomes to the traits of Pharisees—self-righteousness and judgmentalism—prevalent in churches.
• God’s Solution:
  Bill stresses that only God could truly address sin:
  • “The only person who needed to be really serious about sin was God. …Jesus died for every sin because we cannot manage any sin.” – Bill (01:54)

The Ineffectiveness and Harm of Sin Management (03:06 – 04:36)

• Sin Management’s Focus:
  Many resources, even those on grace, still promote steps to “sin less,” but the focus remains wrong.
  • “Working on sin will never cause me to sin less…As Jesus taught, you and I loving each other will cause us to sin less.” – Bill (03:23)
• Love as the Answer:
  Shifting from managing sin to embracing love is transformative:
  • “What if the message of grace was a message of love?” – Bill (04:01)

Identity: Saints, Not Sinners (04:08 – 05:39)

• Seeing Ourselves as God Sees Us:
  Bill and Scott emphasize the difference between striving to become godly and embracing the new identity God has given.
  • “Instead of viewing me in a theology that I’m still a sinner, I could now view me as God sees me, a saint…my striving to become something is already the somebody I already am.” – Bill (04:08)
  • Scott draws a humorous comparison to being the child of an earthly billionaire, then points out our status is far higher as children of God.
• Receiving Love First:
  Before we can love others, we must first know and receive God’s love for us.
  • “If I don’t receive love first, I don’t have love to give.” – Scott (05:27)
  • “Love is never an obligation. Ever. Stop it. Stop it a thousand times.” – Bill (05:41)

Personal Stories: How Sin Management Shapes Behavior (05:49 – 14:09)

• Bill’s Bible College Story (05:49 – 13:13):
  Bill vulnerably recounts being persuaded to write letters cutting himself off from his non-Christian friends, convinced this was godly behavior.
  • The painful outcome: ostracism and regret, highlighting the relational harm of sin-management theology.
  • “I was on track to become a godly man because I've separated myself from the world. …That's all sin management nonsense.” – Bill (06:50)
  • His friends responded with pain but also grace, teaching him that this form of separation has nothing to do with love.
  • “It all backfired, Scott… a theology of sin management that caused me to have a mindset of separation rather than a commitment of love.” – Bill (08:59)
  • Bill’s reflection: “Legalism finds its root in a theology that keeps the saint a sinner.” (13:13)
• Scott’s School Board Experience (11:05 – 11:32):
  Scott recalls pushing back against fear-driven separation in a Christian school context.
  • “I didn’t want fear to be the reason we were a Christian school…and yet it’s a huge reason.” – Scott (11:10)

Grace vs. Legalism: Living from a Place of Love (13:35 – 16:04)

• Isolation and Judgment:
  Sin management and legalism create secrecy, judgment, isolation, and ultimately a less loving community.
  • “Legalism has its root in theology that keeps the saint a sinner…As I live out a sinner, tragically, I have to hide what I’m doing and act godly for your sake.” – Bill (13:36)
• Reality vs. False Narrative:
  Grace declares a new spiritual reality.
  • “Working on your sin is not your reality. Trusting that God has made you truly holy and righteous in his image is the foundation that frees you to love. That’s your reality.” – Bill (15:28)

Personal Transformation Through Grace (16:13 – 19:59)

• Scott’s Cancer Story (16:13 – 18:55):
  Facing his wife’s cancer, Scott describes how efforts to be the “good Christian man” only led to failure and shame. God’s grace came, not because he deserved it, but because he needed it.
  • “I was in prison. I couldn’t stop sinning. …It’s where I began to pray for grace.” – Scott (17:39)
• Discovering Galatians and the Message of Grace (18:46 – 19:16):
  Memorizing Galatians, Scott realized how contrary sin management is to the gospel message.
  • “The Bible was telling me everything I had believed… was opposite of what God was really wanting to do.” – Scott (18:50)
• A New Perspective with Non-Christian Peers:
  Scott shares a story about joining a peer group and realizing his own judgmentalism.
  • “I was judging this. I’m like, no wonder these people hate us.” – Scott (19:59)
  • Bill affirms: “We have projected to them a false gospel. …It’s tragic.” (20:05)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Working on sin will never cause me to sin less. …Loving each other will cause us to sin less.” – Bill (03:23)
• “Instead of viewing me in a theology that I’m still a sinner, I could now view me as God sees me, a saint.” – Bill (04:08)
• “If I don’t receive love first, I don’t have love to give.” – Scott (05:27)
• “Love is never an obligation. Ever. Stop it. Stop it a thousand times.” – Bill (05:41)
• “Legalism finds its root in a theology that keeps the saint a sinner.” – Bill (13:13)
• “Working on your sin is not your reality. Trusting that God has made you truly holy and righteous in his image is the foundation that frees you to love.” – Bill (15:28)
• “We have projected to them a false gospel.” – Bill (20:05)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:12 – 04:07: Introduction to sin management; its prevalence in Christian theology.
• 04:08 – 05:41: Shifting from identity as sinner to beloved child of God.
• 05:49 – 13:13: Bill’s personal story of sin management in Bible college, consequences, and regret.
• 13:35 – 16:04: The root of legalism and its isolating effects.
• 16:13 – 19:59: Scott’s personal journey through his wife’s cancer, discovering grace, and the limitations of legalism.
• 19:16 – 20:13: Real-world encounter with non-Christians, breaking down judgment, and projecting a false gospel.

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Conclusion & Call to Action

Bill and Scott encourage listeners to consider how their theology is shaping their lives and relationships. They challenge the assumption that a focus on managing sin is the Christian way, advocating instead for a grace-based approach rooted in identity, acceptance, and love.

• “How’s your theology influencing you? That’s the question we’d like you to consider.” – Scott (20:18)

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Transcript

[A]

Have you ever thought about how your theology is influencing you? Welcome to Living Influence. Bill, what a loaded question.

[B]

Yes, it is.

[A]

Theology is kind of like politics.

[B]

No, it really is. Thank you, Scott. What we want to do in this session, and then we have a lot we're going to teach about it, is this concept of sin management.

[A]

Right.

[B]

This concept, this theology that is dominant in the church that still is teaching Christians that they are sinners.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that. And that because they are still sinners, then the most important issue in their life is how to deal with the fact they're sinning.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Their most important issue is how to deal with sin. And so sin management brings into. Of theology, brings into the Christian world a theology that says if you're really serious about becoming God, here are the key words. Becoming godly, you're going to work really hard on your sin. You're going to strive to become godly. What if there was a different theology?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Before we go there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If that is your theology, that I'm a sinner and I have to work on my sin.

[B]

Right.

[A]

To me, what I like to teach is there's two outcomes. One is you'll make your world really small and you'll be really prideful and judgmental.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

Trying to keep the things that you can keep. Or the second is you'll never be enough.

[B]

Good for you. So stay there with. Let's just stay with us as we think about how you and I have been influenced by sin management. But before we go to our own stories, let's stay there for. For a minute. What you just described was a Pharisee, correct? That's what you just described. Those were the traits of the Pharisee, and they're dominant in the church because it's a theology that says you got to really be serious about sin. The only person who needed to be really serious about sin was God. And he was so serious about it that he became a man so he could die for sin. Jesus died for every sin because we cannot manage any sin.

[A]

Yeah. I want to just replace that. Jesus died for every sin because I cannot handle any sin.

[B]

Exactly. There's nothing in the created me designed of God to deal with sin. Nothing. It is absolutely foreign to my design.

[A]

And yet there's books that. Oh, there's books on grace that say, well, this is the God's God loves you without condition and there's this grace. But if you have a problem with anger, here's 10 steps you can take.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Picture anger.

[B]

Exactly. Because the focus sin management's focus, this is so tragic, is to help Christians sin less. That's the spiritualized version. We're going to help people sin less. Here's an interesting truth. Working on sin will never cause me to sin less. But listen to this. As Jesus taught you and I loving each other will cause us to sin less.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So what would I need to work on to sinless love? So what if the message. Our message, the message of grace. What if the message of grace was a message of love? And what if a message of love could handle the seriousness of sin?

[A]

Yeah. And.

[B]

And what if. And we're going to get to this a lot, but what if instead of viewing me in a theology that I'm still a sinner, I could now view me as God sees me, a saint? And what if my striving to become something is already the somebody I already am?

[A]

So you can lay your striving down.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And so in that piece, the word you use. What if I can believe who God says I am? What if I can believe that I am the beloved child of God?

[B]

Amen.

[A]

I'm one of his kids.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

I mean, when I first started thinking about it, a really silly way, it's like, what would it be like to be Warren Buffett's kid who has all of the money in the world? Or, you know, and like, man, wouldn't that be cool? But wait a second. We're going to step above this.

[B]

Way above it.

[A]

Way above it. Not even in the same. It's not even in the same universe. It's, what if God is my Father.

[B]

Yes. Well said.

[A]

And then. And then it's as I begin to believe that that's where I begin to receive love.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because if I don't receive love first, I don't have love to give.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And so it's not a work of, oh, I have to muster love for you.

[B]

No.

[A]

Doesn't start there.

[B]

Love is never an obligation. Ever. Stop it. Stop it. A thousand times.

[A]

Yeah. No, but it's something we first must receive.

[B]

Absolutely. I want to tell a couple of stories of. Of how I experienced sin management.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And how it profoundly affected me when I went to Bible college because they had figured out a way to become really godly. They convinced me to do something that now breaks my heart. They convinced me to write a letter to all of my high school friends to tell them that now that I had become a Christian, I could no longer associate with them.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And. And I wrote probably 25 letters to my dearest friends, but I Wasn't smart enough to realize I was actually going to go home in a couple months for Christmas break, and I was gonna have to see all 25 of these friends and. And. But I wrote it, and I felt so spiritual. I felt so godly.

[A]

Oh, isn't that interesting?

[B]

Oh, I felt like, oh, I am on track to become a godly man because I've separated myself from the world. Oh, how godly I am. See, that's all sin management nonsense.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I had to go home.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I went to Tucson, where my family lived, and I got home, and I don't remember what day I got home. Let's say it's a Tuesday. On Friday night, there's a big party, be gathering all the kids. So this really good friend of mine, Phil. Phil calls me up. He says, billy, you want to go? I said, oh, gosh, I don't know if I should go. Well, come on.

[A]

I'll.

[B]

Come on, go. I'll take you. He was one of the guys who wrote the letter to. This breaks my heart. It makes me really sad right now. And we got to this house, and Phil knocked on the door and said something. When they opened the door, like, he's here. And, oh, my gosh, makes me cry. All my friends get on their hands and knees and bow down to me as this godly pope guy.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Oh.

[B]

Oh, you cannot believe, Scott, how painful that was. I was crushed deep in my spirit. I ran back to Phil's car. I couldn't go in. And one guy named Ed Emery came out because he could see what it did to me. Ed was a really solid Catholic kid, and he came up to me, he put his arm around me, and he said, bill, you don't really believe that the rest of us aren't Christians, do you? You really believe that about us?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And to be honest with you, my school, very legalistic Bible, taught me that they weren't Christians.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that I couldn't associate with them. I don't know how to put into words. The next five days of my Christian of my Christmas break were probably, for any short period of time, the hardest five days I'd ever experienced.

[A]

So what were they like?

[B]

People kept showing up, okay. To tell me what that my letter did to them and how they wish I hadn't written it because they still like me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

See, it all backfired, Scott. Yeah, it all backfired on a theology of sin management that caused me to have a mindset of separation rather than a commitment of love and it was my non Christian friends who were saying to me, you got it wrong, Bill. They wouldn't say those words. But I mean, I couldn't tell you how many kids came by my house or took me to lunch and I met with people and I couldn't stop crying enough. But they taught me something. I was wrong. That theology was wrong.

[A]

What did that do to your faith in the Bible college and what they were teaching?

[B]

It was really hard. It was really hard. I mean the desire to go back was really hard. But I knew I needed to go back because of something. Thanks for that question. I needed to go back because there were a couple people at the Bible college that I didn't ask about writing this letter. That if I would have asked them, I would have gotten a different answer. And I knew they were there and I couldn't wait to get back to tell them. What I'm telling everybody now was my experience.

[A]

Was it some zealous kids that were.

[B]

I think it was one professor.

[A]

One professor and some zealous followers of.

[B]

That professor who were convinced the answer is to become separate from the world, to become godly. I mean that was just a bad. But it's a components God of sin management. The early church was a place where Christians came to be healed from the effect of the world. Today's not every church, many churches today are designed to keep the Christians separate from the world. I'll give you an interesting insight. When my fear of the power of sin in the world is greater than my confidence in the grace of God, I will separate from the world for.

[A]

A period of time in my life was on a school board of a Christian school.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

I didn't want fear to be the reason we were a Christian school.

[B]

Good for you.

[A]

And yet it's a huge reason.

[B]

It was.

[A]

It's a huge reason why a separation from. Yeah, let me keep my kids safe from.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I don't know the answer, but it's. It's not to keep us safe from.

[B]

No, it's. It's interesting. The words are simple.

[A]

Jesus said, go ye into what the world.

[B]

See, it's just like. It's like it kind of messes with the assignment.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

See, because sin management says godliness is measured in a holiness that separates itself from grace. Says godliness is reality in a holy person because of the work of Christ that does not need to fear the world. So what if we learned grace? So in that story it broke my heart, but by God's grace, it cautioned me deeply. Yeah, it was A tool that God used to cause me then to measure my choices. Not based on a godly professor and his disciples, but on the scriptures. It did, Scott. It drove me to a dependency on the Scripture.

[A]

And to love.

[B]

And to love. Oh. No if, ands or buts about it.

[A]

You saw that you were unloving.

[B]

Oh, in spades.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I wish I could. That sounds corny. I just wish I could line those 20 people up and hug every one of them right now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And tell them how sorry I am for what I did to them and what I did to our relationship.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I just. I wish I could.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not to be corny. I've hugged a lot of 20s. Some groups in the place of those 20. They just need to know. A lot of people have been hugged in their place.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Figuratively.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. So that. That. That dynamic, well meaning in many, many churches is. Is not. It's like legalism finds its root in a theology that keeps the saint a sinner.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

Legalism has its root in theology that keeps the saint a sinner. And as I live out a sinner, tragically, I have to hide what I'm doing and act godly for your sake.

[A]

Which then creates judgment, creates separation. It creates an environment where there's less love.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Isolation, isolation.

[B]

Isolation.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then this is tragic because it's true. And then the reason our church is so small is because people don't like the truth that we're teaching.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. So you justify your dysfunction.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's really tragic. I just want people to know that I've been affected by Sid Manish. I didn't make it up. It deeply affected me. Another quick story, Scott, was that I graduated from Bible college. I start preaching at these little chapels. This is another very important understanding of sin management. Sin management never touches my reality, only grace does.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And if my theology.

[A]

So you say that that's really hard for people to understand. What you mean by that? Yeah, it was for me. I mean. So sin management never touches my reality. Well, but sin management says I need to work on my sin, and so I'm working on my sin. Well, that's my reality. I'm working on my sin. So help me understand what you're trying to say.

[B]

Actually working on your sin is not your reality.

[A]

Okay, what's my reality?

[B]

Your reality is that you are now dead to sin. Your reality is you have a new identity.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Your reality is that you are now a wonderful child of God. And listen carefully, working on your sin is not your reality. Trusting that God has made you truly holy and righteous in his image is the foundation that frees you to love. That's your reality. But that's the message of grace.

[A]

But we deny that with our sin management theology.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Sin management theology tells us a lie that we believe.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

And that lie, then, has influence in our lives.

[B]

Huge influence in our lives.

[A]

Yeah. This is my first cancer story. I've told the two cancer stories in my life with. With my. With my late wife. In 2003, she. She got breast cancer. I am trying to do all the things. I mean, even before that happened, I'm trying to do all things. I've got some teenage boys. I'm trying to model godliness for them. I'm trying to have them see their dad, read his Bible. I'm trying to have a quiet time every morning. I'm trying to go to church when the doors are open. I'm trying to, you know, be a good man. And Bev gets breast cancer, and it's an aggressive form, and it's scary, and I'm terrified. And I want to double down and be her hero. And I was anything but. I, I mean, I, I, I became victim to all of my temptations and all of my weaknesses, and they became. I mean, I was like, this is what prison is like. Yeah, I was in prison. I couldn't stop sinning. I couldn't stop medicating myself. And it's where I began to pray for grace. I mean, I would go for walk. I mean, this is. I would go for walks in the morning, and God, would you. Would you heal my wife and would you help my business? Because we were not in a great spot, and I was the only guy getting work, doing the business development, and I was missing work all the time for chemos and surgeries and all that stuff that goes on with a cancer journey. And God answered my prayer, and I didn't deserve it to be answered. Because of me, it planted the seeds for me to begin to go down this journey of discovering grace.

[B]

Amen. Well said.

[A]

It was a few months, not a few months, a few years later. I memorized Galatians with a friend of mine. I wasn't completely done with the sin management stuff. Doesn't change on Tuesday, doesn't go away overnight. And my friend and I actually memorized Galatians and we performed it at our church. And I did chapters one through three, and he did chapters four through six from memory with no help. I think I made one mistake because people were checking as we recited It. But I was blown away by the book. The book was telling me everything I had believed that I had been taught. The sin management theology was opposite.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

Of what God was really wanting to do.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

And I began to thank you, Holy.

[B]

Spirit, for teaching Scott that. Yeah, amen.

[A]

And I began to come alive to this grace concept. And prior to that, you know, we got rid of all our albums that weren't Christian. I. I have. I've bought them back since then because I like them. But, you know, we're doing all these things of, like, these legalistic things in our love for God, because we did love God.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

So I just have this one final story. I got involved in a peer group through an association of other contractors that did the same work that I did. And we'd go meet, but before dinner, we met in the bar, and then we go to dinner, and then we go to the bar afterwards. And I'm thinking, oh, my gosh, I'm with sinners, you know? And it was so ridiculous, my fear, because what I discovered was these people wanted to just sit down and talk and connect and love one another. It so convicted me of how judgmental I had been in my life that I was judging this. I'm like, no wonder these people hate us.

[B]

Amen. Could repeat that a thousand times. They despise us, God.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because we have projected to them a false gospel.

[A]

Right? We have.

[B]

It's tragic.

[A]

Yeah. So our theology is important. We would say that. Right.

[B]

So important.

[A]

How's your theology influencing you? That's the question we'd like you to consider. We'd love to see you again. We'd love you to share this podcast with others. And we thank you for. For being here. Thank you for listening to the podcast. We're really glad that you're here. We'd love to know that you're here. And so if you could leave a comment, we would appreciate that. But more importantly, if you know someone that should listen to this or hear it, we would love for you to share it with them. Thanks again.