Moving From Shame to No Condemnation

Summary

Living Influence with Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd

Episode: Moving From Shame to No Condemnation
Release Date: August 14, 2025

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Introduction

In the episode titled "Moving From Shame to No Condemnation," hosts Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd delve into the transformative journey from a shame-based mindset to living without condemnation. Joined by a special guest, Cole Voldemort, the discussion explores deep personal experiences, theological insights, and practical steps toward embracing a life defined by grace and self-acceptance.

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Personal Testimonies and Backstories

Cole Voldemort's Journey

Cole begins by introducing himself and sharing his profound personal journey. Raised in a Christian home as a first-generation immigrant from Germany and Canada, Cole was instilled with a strong sense of performance and the need for excellence from an early age. This upbringing fostered a persistent feeling of not being "enough," leading him to excel academically and professionally.

“I grew up knowing the love of Jesus... But there was also a very strong tone of performance and a need to be excellent in everything I did.”
[00:44]

Despite his successes—including an MBA, a career at USAA and Fidelity, and a stable family life with his wife Ann and their children—Cole faced a series of personal and professional crises around 2005-2006. These challenges led him to Phoenix, where he met Bill Thrall and became involved in a community of grace that would significantly alter his life's trajectory.

“It was a bad fit and I had to resign... we really did fall into a community of grace that God had planned.”
[03:09]

Scott Boyd shares a similar narrative of loss and recovery, having lost his first spouse to cancer alongside his wife Aileen. Together, they found solace and growth in a supportive community, illustrating the profound impact of grace-filled relationships.

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The Concept of Shame vs. No Condemnation

Challenging the Necessity of Shame

The hosts and Cole engage in a thought-provoking discussion about the role of shame in personal growth. They challenge the commonly held belief that shame is necessary for improvement, referencing Romans 8 to argue that living without condemnation is not only possible but foundational to personal and spiritual well-being.

“It's not how much I trust, it's who I'm trusting.”
[11:24]

Redefining Identity Through Jesus

A central theme is the redefinition of one's identity through the lens of Jesus Christ's sacrifice. They emphasize that Jesus didn't just die for sins but also for personal insecurities and shame, thereby liberating individuals from self-condemnation.

“Jesus himself took upon him at Calvary... He died for our shame.”
[12:26]

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The Role of Trust and Theology

Trust as the Foundation of Transformation

The conversation pivots to the importance of trust—not just the quantity of trust, but the object of that trust. Trusting Jesus, who embodies grace and love, is portrayed as the pivotal step in moving away from shame.

“Trust is the key operative word in all relationships. It really is.”
[09:31]

They discuss common misconceptions about trust, noting that many Christians understand the theology but struggle to apply it relationally and personally. The hosts encourage a shift from a theology that emphasizes sin management to one that highlights grace and love.

“If I see myself as a sinner, I will constantly put the emphasis of my life on my savior, but if I see myself as a saint, I will constantly put the emphasis on my life. On Jesus.”
[18:03]

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Transformative Process from Shame to Freedom

From Self-Perception to Divine Acceptance

Cole shares how being part of a grace-filled community helped him start trusting others with his insecurities, which in turn allowed him to believe in God's promises. This communal support was crucial in his journey toward self-acceptance and freedom from shame.

“I started to believe. Actually, maybe God can do what he says because I'm seeing it.”
[13:59]

Embracing a Safe Environment

An environment of grace is depicted as essential for vulnerability and trust. Such a space allows individuals to be known without fear, facilitating the discovery and acceptance of divine love.

“When I am in a safe place, I am not afraid to be known. And shame wants me to hide from you.”
[14:21]

Theological Shift from Sin to Love

The hosts argue that shifting one's theological focus from being a sinner to being a saint transforms one's approach to life. Emphasizing love over sin management leads to genuine behavioral change and spiritual growth.

“When I love more, I will actually sin less... the solution to sinning less was learning to be loved.”
[22:26]

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Key Insights and Conclusion

Integrating Trust and Identity

The episode underscores the necessity of trusting Jesus not just with one's sins but also with personal shame and insecurities. This holistic trust facilitates a life free from condemnation and rich in love.

“His name's Jesus. And as we learn to trust who Jesus is, as we learn to trust Jesus, we can begin to live with no condemnation.”
[24:06]

Final Thoughts

Bill and Scott wrap up the conversation by reiterating the transformative power of embracing a grace-filled identity. They invite listeners to move beyond self-condemnation and to trust in Jesus' ability to redefine their worth and purpose.

“There is a solution to our shame. His name's Jesus.”
[24:07]

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Cole Voldemort:
  “I grew up knowing the love of Jesus... But there was also a very strong tone of performance and a need to be excellent in everything I did.”
  [00:44]

• Bill Thrall:
  “Trust is the key operative word in all relationships. It really is.”
  [09:31]

• Cole Voldemort:
  “Jesus himself took upon him at Calvary... He died for our shame.”
  [12:26]

• Scott Boyd:
  “When I love more, I will actually sin less... the solution to sinning less was learning to be loved.”
  [22:26]

• Bill Thrall:
  “His name's Jesus. And as we learn to trust who Jesus is, as we learn to trust Jesus, we can begin to live with no condemnation.”
  [24:06]

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Conclusion

"Moving From Shame to No Condemnation" offers a profound exploration of how embracing trust in Jesus and redefining one's identity through grace can lead to liberation from shame. Through personal testimonies and theological insights, Bill Thrall, Scott Boyd, and Cole Voldemort provide listeners with a roadmap to transform their lives by shifting their focus from self-condemnation to divine love and acceptance.

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If you found this summary insightful, consider sharing it with others who might benefit from the powerful messages of grace and transformation discussed in this episode.

Transcript

[A]

Is it really possible to live without condemnation? Welcome to Living Influence. But before we get there, we have a third member of our team who's yet to be on camera, that we want to introduce you to. Voldemort. Cole Voldemort. Why don't you tell the audience a little bit about you?

[B]

Okay, I will. How did I first get to meet you? So, Bill, about 20 years ago.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

When we spent some critical time as a family in Phoenix for a very short two years. But you've really made a huge difference in my life.

[C]

Amen.

[B]

And then, Scott, it's been just two years, but it feels like a lot longer. You know, just the level of relationship we've had in putting together Living Influence. And it's been. Anyhow, I feel like I know you for a lot longer, so it's been wonderful.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

I grew up in a Christian home. Parents, believers, actually, first generation immigrants from Germany and Canada. First Christians in their families. I grew up knowing the love of Jesus. My mom really shared that with me and my brother. I felt it from my dad as well. But there was also a very strong tone of performance and a need to be excellent in everything I did. Very, very strong. Just the feeling of I needed to be perfect. And that really became part of my childhood and upbringing. That, of course, translated to my view of God, that I wasn't quite enough all the time. So I took that in and that just became part of me. And I performed. I performed very well. I went to a very good university, went to Georgetown. I did well. I played that part and that continued for a while. I did also meet my amazing wife, Ann, which means full of grace at Georgetown. And eventually I made my way into a financial services career and it was very successful with USAA and with Fidelity. I was able to perform as I grew spiritually, learning about a God who was full of love but wanted my best, wanted my effort. By 33, I was an executive. I had an MBA, I had my CFP, we had five children, was attending a wonderful church, had a mentor, and things were going just like they should until they weren't. And that's when things came crashing down. So 2005, we had just moved from San Antonio to Phoenix, and from 2005, 2006, everything really came crashing down. Our fifth trial was a surprise. We didn't have any support or family in Phoenix. That was difficult. My work, there was a lot of pain with my boss. Ultimately, there was so much conflict and dysfunction and I just was in a bad role. I was avoiding accountability because it wasn't working. It was a bad fit and I had to resign. And then a series, a disastrous series of family events with my family of origin and my wife ultimately caused tremendous pain where we had to separate. It impacted my marriage. And then we fell into a community of grace. God put us in Phoenix for those two years and we really did. We fell into a community of grace that God had planned an open door fellowship.

[A]

That's where you met Bill?

[B]

That's where I met Bill. That's where I got exposed to true face, got involved in just many people, many others were there to support. And Bill, that's when you and I really. I remember the first time we met or at least had a significant discussion. Everyone remembers. That's right.

[A]

First time they met Bill.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Everybody does.

[B]

That's right. How many degrees are you from, Bill?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Teaching me like the greatest gift you can give someone is objectivity. My true identity is something I'd never. I didn't understand that. And just this idea of I'm not a bad person, I'm actually a saint. And just. I began to trust. We began to trust Ann and I did. Again, that was a transformational. It's like when you do your timeline. We recently did that. It's like what's the highest and lowest points? It was both highest and lowest. But we never knew there was that kind of love available. Ever so fast forwarding. After two years of an incredible time in the desert of healing and awakening, we moved to New Hampshire. I got into consulting first with Fidelity and then started my own practice which has been going on for 10 years. Cole Consulting business, very successful practice. I've worked now with over 150 executive teams, 2,000 leaders. I'm also principal consultant with the Table Group. And just the joy of helping leaders develop trust and vulnerability and having tough conversations and leading their businesses and their teams has been very fulfilling to me. The journey has continued in terms of understanding grace. God's blessed us with a great environment, a home group, multiple home groups, the church and Bill. You've continued to mentor me from time to time, going through some really difficult times and just continuing that journey. Just help me always realign with truth. It's a great gift that we can give each other is what's true about me, what's true about God, what's true about my reality that my shame is paid for. I don't have to keep grabbing that back and chewing on it like a couch chews his cud. Learning that righteousness is defined by how much I give and receive love.

[C]

Amen.

[B]

It continues to shock me and yet continues to feed me and my growth as a follower of Jesus.

[A]

What's happening in two weeks?

[B]

Oh, in two weeks there happens to be a marriage. Our firstborn. And why'd you bring that up? Because I'm trying to focus.

[A]

Well, when I met your family, it was just so evident that Grace was involved in the connections and the trust that not only you have, but your family has in each other. And it was really, it was really cool.

[B]

Praise God. I mean, yeah, praise God for that. And that's been a journey of needing to. To not pull back when I'm hurt by my kids or when I just don't want to just admit weakness. And yeah, it's been a. Thank you for saying that. Yeah, that's been huge. So anyhow, that's my journey and I'm super excited to be part of an amazing ministry like this where we can help others experience the fullness of God in them.

[A]

Yeah. And if I can get you off your list, you know, to have, that's a good thing, right?

[B]

Totally.

[A]

So shame to no condemnation.

[C]

Amazing.

[A]

It is an amazing concept because so many, me included, think, isn't shame necessary to help me grow as a person?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But there's this. Romans 8, one passage.

[C]

Thank you. Thank you, Voldemort. Love having you on the team, brother. Thank you. Just love having you with us.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Appreciate all you bring. Thank you. This whole concept of shame to no condemnation is actually in the context of actually even a greater question. What am I experiencing? What am I experiencing? If I'm experiencing shame, and I am, and God says I am without condemnation, what is it that allows my experience to move from shame to no condemnation? There's a whole series of things like this, my experience sinning, and God says, you are no longer a slave to sin. What? What? What? So what we're going to do in this next several series is we're going to imagine together, how do we move from shame based mindset to no condemnation heart set. So sometimes when we come up with a significant problem, somebody will just say, well, all you have to do is trust. All you have to do is trust. And they're right. Except we're not sure what trust is and we're not sure what the object of our trust is. And so as we think about moving the movement of my reality from a shame based to a no, not being condemned as a person, what's going to happen? I need to trust. And let's talk about Trust for just a minute. As we said earlier, trust is the key operative word in all relationships. It really is. Many, many, many, many Christians have a real faith in God, but not, as many understand, to have a reliance upon the God that they believe in. And trust is that reliance upon trust is that dependency on. But there's something also back in the heart of trust, and that is a willingness to act upon the trust that I have. That's the hard one. Lots and lots of our audiences have a pretty good understanding of a theology of the Bible. And when I ask them things, they'll. They got the right Bible answer. But, but when we ask the question, are you relying upon what you trust? Do you know how to live into what you trust? And so, so that's what I need to learn. I just want to say to everyone, do, Lord, teach me, teach me that trust is the decision to rely upon. Now, a question, a serious question is, is it the degree of my trust?

[A]

Right.

[C]

Or is it the object of my trust?

[A]

I mean, that's, that's where I went the first time I heard you teach this. I need to trust more.

[C]

Right.

[A]

I've got to figure out, I just have to trust more.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And. And it became. I mean, I'm really good at turning things into, like a performance.

[C]

Same.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. And so, so it's like, okay, I just got to trust more.

[B]

It gives you an assignment. It's like, if I can add more effort, how can it not be better?

[A]

Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Let's just stay there. All three of us. And most of our audience is stuck there as well. It's. It's like this. I'm going to ask a question. We're going to do this now for several sessions. The question I want to ask this, Is Jesus able? We're Christians. One thing we've learned. You wouldn't be a Christian if you didn't learn this. Jesus is able to die for our sin. He's able to do that. Can I trust him with that? Now listen carefully. When I trust that Jesus is able to die for us by sin, I become a Christian and my life will never be the same. Now, was it the amount of my trust in him, or was it the significance of who he is and what he's done? So a little bit is like a mustard seed. Remember that. Remember that Jesus is teaching that principle, faith, like a mustard seed. That's a pretty small seed. What you mean just a little bit of faith in Jesus Christ and who he is and what he's done and is what Transforms us. Wow. So let's. Let's just stay there. So I want to come back to that question God, or even that prayer. God, teach me to trust you because you are able.

[A]

It's not how much I trust, it's who I'm trusting.

[C]

Absolutely. It's absolutely. And then the who I am trusting is, is he able to. So let's take this. I trusted Jesus with my sin. Thank you, Lord. I have a Savior. But has anyone ever taught me that I can trust Jesus with my shame? Has anyone ever taught me that? Has anyone ever taught me that when Jesus went to the cross and he died for my sins, something happened at the cross? No one, including Jesus, can experience sin who does not experience shame.

[A]

Could I say that Jesus died on the cross for my insecurities?

[C]

Yes, because he died for your. He died for your sin. He died for. He. Let me say this. He experienced your insecurities at Calvary.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

That's what he did.

[A]

Because they're connected to my shame.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And so. So it's. It's. It's like this. For some people, as I've. As I teach this, it's. It's something new. They've not heard it yet. This reality that. This shame that has become my identity, Jesus himself took upon him at Calvary.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And. And when he took it upon Himself, he died for my shame. And when he died for my shame, I no longer have to live in my shame because he's already taken it. And then. Then I get into a mindset. Well, it's a vacuum. Then how would I then live?

[A]

Yeah. Like, doesn't my shame help inform me what to do?

[C]

Yes. Yes. You're right. Shame tells me I'm screwed up. It does. It does a really good job in a multiple number of ways.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But this is the tragic reality. Whatever my shame convinces me that I am, I have no solution for what I discover. And that haunts me. That creates a crisis for me.

[B]

You know, as you're talking, Bill, I'm thinking back to why did it take so long for me to start to experience that level of taking on my condemnation? And I started thinking back to what was that environment of grace in Phoenix at the church.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And it's almost like I had to start to experience God through others, trusting them with some of those insecurities, and that I'm not enough. That started to help me believe. Actually, maybe God can do what he says because I'm seeing it.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

I'm saying I'm starting to experience it. So let Me trust a little more. It's not in a vacuum. It's in that community.

[C]

And that's a great point. Just a couple sessions ago, Voldemort, we talked to our audience about grace as the foundation for my community. And one of the things we learned in that environment is an environment of grace is always a safe place. Now, one of the things you learned. You just said it. One of the things I've learned in that environment, Scott and I relationship, we know that here's what happens. When I am in a safe place, I am not afraid to be known. And shame wants me to hide from you. And if you and God, whoever you are and God can create a safe place for me, I come out of my shame because I'm not afraid to be known. And then the process. Your question's excellent. Then the process of discovery takes place. If I'm not afraid to be known, I'm at a place where I begin to discover trust. Who would I dare let know me? Why would I do that? How do I learn to trust God with me? So a question we're just going to keep asking every time. I'll ask it six, seven times. Is God able? As I look at the condition of my life because of shame, can I discover a solution? Is his name Jesus? Can I trust him with what is true about me? And did he, as Scott just said a while ago, and did he experience my reality at Calvary? Yes, he did. There are some verses in the latter part of Isaiah chapter 52 that describe what it's like for the Isaiah, chapter 50, the crucified one, what he experiences. And those verses in Isaiah chapter 52 say that. That his shape, the crucified one, his shape was no longer recognizable of that as a man.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So distorted. Did Jesus go through at cross that he was no longer recognizable as a man? Now, I don't have any great Bible verse for this, but I personally believe it's the reason God darkened the earth so that humanity could not see what they had done to the Son of God. Oh, wow. Ever thought of that? Yeah. Now what did he do? He experienced my shame. Now, there's a turning point here. We have to kind of lean into this. I have a condition. I view myself in my shame. Can I discover a solution? His name is Jesus. Now, here's the key words. Can I trust the solution I discover. Is it possible for my Savior to take upon him my shame so that my shame no longer defines me? Yes. Yes.

[B]

Back to the object of your faith.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

Do we know the capability of the object of our faith. All we need is a mustard seed.

[C]

And if that's true, and I believe that it is, then what happens is this reality. I am now free. Scott loves that word. I am now free to no longer be defined by the way I see me. I'm going to pause there for a minute. I want to pause there right now in what I just said. My next words are tragic to me, but they're true. You see, for many Christians, it's actually their theology that keeps them bound in their shame. Because for many Christians, they're still being taught sin management is still teaching them that they are a sinner, but God says, no, they're a saint. What? What? Yeah, that's. That's theology. My theology is critical to my solution. If I see myself as a sinner, I will constantly put the emphasis of my life on my savior, but if I see myself as a saint, I will constantly put the emphases on my life. On Jesus. Yeah, on Jesus. Oh, by the way, he is my savior, but he's also the solution to my shame.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh, man, that's so good.

[B]

You know, by the way, Scott, that's really what. Part of what attracted me so much to you early on is just that your approach to. I'm not defined by how you see me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I mean, you still. Just like we all do. You still struggle with.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, how. How am I perceived? But that. That's been an example to me. I think that's why we've connected. Thank you.

[A]

You know, when you. When you're living in shame, you. I mean, there's a whole list of all the things that I think we're going to go into that.

[C]

Yeah. We are.

[A]

In another. And maybe in the next podcast. But it's like you have to defend yourself. You think you do, you know, you think you do.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You think you do. And so in that place of defending yourself and being afraid of being known, it makes your world so much smaller.

[C]

Oh, thank you.

[B]

Then that's interesting.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Why smaller? Why do you say that smaller?

[A]

Because it's like. It's like. Right. This is what I'm. I mean, I'm. My. My mind's going a thousand miles with myself. Yeah. How do I look up so busy with myself? Like, you know, right now I wish my pant legs were a little further down because I'm paying attention to myself in front of this podcast. So, you know, but that's an insecurity that happens, and when that happens, I'm not paying Attention to you guys as well.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

So it's just very. Well, just a real simple.

[C]

No, no. That's very well said.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And, you know, it's foundational to the message of grace that we're doing our best to live into and. And invite others into. And that is. Listen to this. God, Jesus took upon him my shame so that I, without condemnation, could love you.

[A]

That's beautiful, isn't it?

[C]

Let's think about that. He changes the focus because of my shame, from me to you. And he says the greatest evidence that I am his is the fact that I love him.

[A]

The love that we have for one another.

[C]

So why is it that so many Christians are preoccupied with their behavior? Because they're still believing that their sin is their issue and they've got to work on it. And they discard without meaning it. They discard the significance of Christ's work for them.

[B]

You know, the way I think of it, see, if you. If you agree is I want to love more. I also want to become less sinful. It's a both. And. But the more I try to love without trusting all of my shame and sin to Christ, it's like a force field around my ability to love. It's like I try to love and it bounces right back and I'm back in the mirror. Like, am I okay?

[C]

Yep.

[B]

You know, I need to take all the mirrors down in the house. Let God do that and that. Otherwise it's not. It's not going to. I can't do both.

[C]

Yeah. Think about what you just said, Voldemort, in the context of this. Here's the deal. If my theology is convincing me that I am a sinner, it will define me. And when it defines me, my life goal will be to sin less. It will. And I will fail at it every time. Because sinning less is impossible if I see myself as a sinner. Sinning less is only possible when I see myself as a saint. Why? Because the reflection and actions of a saint are love. And here's the kicker. Do you know that when I love more, I will actually sin less? What if the solution. Jesus in his wisdom, what if the solution to my sinning less was learning to be loved? What if the process of learning to be loved made me a lover? Because that's what God says. We love him. Because why first loved. He first loved us. So just say this to a person who's struggling with sinning less. Let me invite you into a relationship with God where you're choosing to trust his love and I promise you, you will sin less.

[A]

It's amazing. There is a solution to our shame.

[C]

Amen.

[A]

His name's Jesus.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And as we learn to trust who Jesus is, as we learn to trust Jesus, we can begin to live with no condemnation.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

Scott, we'll see you next week. Thank you for listening to the podcast. We're really glad that you're here. We'd love to know that you're here, and so if you could leave a comment, we would appreciate that. But more importantly, if you know someone that should listen to this or hear it, we would love for you to share it with them. Thanks again.