← Living Influence with Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd
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- [00:04]
A
Welcome to Living Influence. I'm your host, Scott Boyd, along with my friend and mentor, Bill Thrall. Bill, how are you today?
- [00:11]
B
I'm good, thank you, brother. How about you?
- [00:13]
A
I'm doing well. We are talking about the process of maturing. I've got a statement to start that I'm going to read with. Read from. It says spiritual maturity takes place when we actually learn to teach others to believe what God says is already true about them. Spiritual maturity takes place when people are taught to believe and live out of who God says they are. It isn't just that we know what the Bible says about who we are in Christ. It's that we actually believe who we are in Christ and that it's true for us. The godly actually believe who they are in Christ and they live out of it. Bill, I was thinking about this, and so there's two. I'll let you go where you want, but there's two areas I wanted to ask you about.
- [01:12]
B
Sure.
- [01:14]
A
In this. The first is it is so interesting. For instance, in my relationship with Eileen, we have this thing that we call when we get triggered. What I mean when I say when I get triggered is all of a sudden I find myself being defensive, being angry, but I feel actually hijacked by the chemicals in my body. I feel like my heart rate goes up. And almost always, if not a hundred percent of the time, something about me has been triggered. A belief about me has been triggered. And almost 100% of the time, that belief comes from the voice of my shame speaking to me. And now all of a sudden, I'm in need of being justified. I'm in need of defending myself. I'm in need of. And so I think this is really connected. And we were talking earlier, there's actually neuroscience about our brains and our bodies and the chemicals that we have flowing through our bodies that actually connects to what the Bible says. And the Bible kind of knew some of this a long time ago. And so that's pretty amazing, right? Absolutely how that works. And then the other thing that I'd like to talk about is talking about the what's the difference between growing and maturing? And are they the same thing as
- [02:55]
B
we think about this process of maturing? Here's what I would say initially. Let's make sure that we are getting the foundation of who we are. Right. You just gave an excellent illustration of what happens to you, Scott, when you get triggered. And what happens is a self message generated by shame, which is very familiar to you. And by the way, we all have one. That self message in that moment seems to dominate everything about you. And so what we want to be able to learn and understand is that message comes from a false place. It comes from a place of shame. And yet the beauty is this. If I don't understand that there is actually a different way, a better way of seeing who I really am, I will learn to trust that false message. That's a tragic statement, but I will actually learn to trust that. And as we both understand, we've met with a lot of people, there are a lot of people, Christians, still seeing themselves being dominated by that message. And that message of shame is always a lie. That's a tragic dynamic. So back to your statement. And what we're going to talk about today is how then do I learn to actually believe who God says I am? How do I help somebody understand the significant difference of what we're talking about? What if this was true? What if as a Christian, and by the way, only as a Christian, I have an option? I can believe who my shame says I am, or I can learn to trust and live into who my God says I am. Only a Christian can do that. Now, the reason I'm emphasizing that is because by the miracle of God's grace, and it's amplified in our lives in a multiple number of ways. But by the miracle of God's grace, I am have become somebody I never was before. I want to say that as clearly as I can. I am a new creation. I need to believe who God says I am. That new reality is who I really am. So as you know, Scott, you just said it very well. When you are triggered in that moment, that feels like your reality. But because you're a believer and you know who God says you are in his grace, that's a fleeting moment for you. It's no longer lasting years. It may only last moments. But that's a critical difference. As a Christian who has experienced God's grace for my sin, am I learning how to live into and experience God's grace for my life, for who I really am? And if I'm learning to experience who God says I am, I get to share that with you, Scott. That's a marvelous message. And you and I together have a podcast so we can share it with thousands of others. I was thinking as you did beforehand, and I thought, Scott, if the only thing we said every week and if we said it every week is, you know, you ain't who you used to be, if as a believer, that old message of shame is no Longer the message of your reality. How do I learn to live into the message of my new reality? How does that happen?
- [07:05]
A
Yeah, I was at dinner with a friend, a new friend. He's a new believer. Like, I think, I can't remember exactly. Three to five years.
- [07:15]
B
Yes.
- [07:15]
A
Just became a Christian three years ago. Let's say he was worried and he was telling me that sometimes he wakes up in the morning and he's hungry, and so he gets. Goes and gets breakfast, and then, you know, emails start happening and he. He's not mindful of God and his day starts and he's worried that, you know, if he was really a committed Christian, he would wake up thinking about God. And I was trying to say, well, what if God's okay that you woke up hungry and then you're worried about your work because you've got a lot of responsibility and it's how you take care of your family. And what if that were okay? And does that fit with what we're talking about, teaching the new to believer to believe what God says is true about him?
- [08:08]
B
Absolutely. Scott, what if. Gosh, if we just get past these lists and all these prioritizes, you know, if we could just understand God delights in us because he remade us in Christ and because he remade us in Christ like your friend, if I get up in the morning and I'm hungry and I eat before I pray, I might still be a Christian. As we will say a lot over the course of our time with our podcasts, could we learn to transfer our understanding? I'll say it as clearly as I can. Could I learn to transfer my understanding from what do I do next? To what truth do I trust next? If I could just learn that transition, if I reduce my Christian life to what I do next, I'll never run out of doing.
- [09:05]
A
I just.
- [09:06]
B
I just won't. There are all kinds of books on how to. How to do a whole bunch of things. But what if. What if the lesson on maturing was this? What if the lesson on maturing was what truth does God want me to trust so I can be who he has designed me to be? That. That to me is. Is like critical. You. You and I, Scott, by God's grace, we get to have some love fishing. We love playing gin rummy, we love golfing. And you know what? I think God actually delights in us when we're having fun together. I. I really do.
- [09:48]
A
We.
- [09:48]
B
We. We also get to do some serious things like these podcasts, and, and it's not like God's More pleased with us because we're doing a podcast today talking about Jesus than he is when we golf. It. It's, it's just a misunderstanding of, of godliness or a better understanding of godliness is right now. Right now, Scott, you and I are in an enjoyable relationship with God by his grace. Oh my. If I could just live into that. So as I think about that question and I think about your second question is this. I, I, I like to think about it as a process, but the process has to get the foundation right. Scott, we've said this several times on our podcast. If, as a Christian, my theology still tells me that I am a sinner, I will never mature, never mature, because I will be preoccupied my whole Christian life with how much I sin. But if my theology tells me that I have a new reality and that I can mature in that new reality into who God has designed me to be, that changes my whole paradigm of how I live. I actually become more. This is a beautiful thing to say, and we're going to talk about this later. But as I mature, one of the great evidences of my maturing is I think less of me and I think more of you.
- [11:29]
A
But as Christians, don't. Don't we need to be actively working on our growth?
- [11:35]
B
That's a good question. That's a very good question. Let's say it this way. We as Christians need to be actively trusting truth so we can grow. That's what we have to do. We have to constantly be imagining what is the truth that I am trusting that is designed of God for my maturing. And as we've said many times, how would I ever know if I'm trusting truth? Because I would act upon it. Truth is an amazing reality. I can never experience it until I trust it. And when I trust it, my responsive obedience allows me to experience it. The, the Bible is full of stories of individuals who chose to trust God. The evidence of their trust was their obedience. And that's really the lesson that you and I want to experience. What truth am I trusting about who God says I am that I actually act upon? And in acting upon it, in my obedience, God is using that truth to mature me.
- [12:58]
A
Yeah. So say that one more time for me. Shouldn't I actively be working on my growth? And you said we should be. I'm going to try, let me try to say it. We should be actively working on the truth we trust so that we can grow.
- [13:15]
B
Absolutely. I think Christians find it easier to do something for God than to trust God. I just, I Just think we're kind of wired that way. God dig me. Look, all I'm doing for you in the kingdom, and he doesn't get digged well, he just goes, ah, look, that's a nice attempt. Thank you, Charlie. But if you could understand what I've done in you and am doing in you and understand you're maturing is going to be happening as you trust truth. And when you trust truth, guess what, Bill? You're going to start living into my purposes for your life.
- [14:02]
A
Yeah. Can you think of an example of someone you were mentoring and they were coming with problem A and you're trying to help them, not necessarily with problem A, but with trusting who God says they are. Could you have an example of that?
- [14:25]
B
Thanks for asking that. Two hours ago, okay, Two hours ago, I was on the phone call with a dear friend, a woman, and she's written me several times. She loves to write several lists of all these things. And, and today this was my response to her. I said, I read your, well, 14 points on your last memo. I read everything really, really well. I said, would. Would you give me permission to respond to what I think I saw when I read this? And she said, yes. And I said, good. I said, there's one point here that you've addressed. What I think would help a lot if you let the two people in that point actually love you. I think if you would let the two people in that point actually care for you instead of being disappointed in everything they haven't done so far. What if you could just let them love you because they desperately want to. And she cried a little bit and then she said, that's my big problem. I don't know how to be loved. Okay, now we're getting somewhere. Now we're getting somewhere. And I say that as an example, Scott, because here's a beautiful, beautiful reality in the process of our maturing to men as brothers in Christ, you know, God actually uses our love to help us grow. He actually uses our love because something happens when two men happens to be you and me, choose to trust each other. That's where we get to experience each other's love. And it is amazing. In my experience, you asked me about my meeting with people in my experience, like this lady this morning. The number of people who are struggling with a whole lot of problems, but their greatest need is to experience love. And once they experience love, like this woman today, I. I'm just going to tell you what I did. I told her to call each person, say to them something like this I'd like you to call them and tell them that happens to be me, Bill. That Bill said he would meet with us because I'm willing to learn how to let you love me. That's what she is going to say to both people. That's a huge transition, Scott. That's a huge transition. And if we could encourage those who are right now listening and watching us, we just say to them, we know life is full of issues. We know there are all kinds of things that hurt us and affect us. But foundationally to resolution is my being able to trust who God says I am and then find a Scott like I have, who's somebody I can trust with who I am, and we can experience love. The promise is we will mature.
- [17:41]
A
So, Bill, when that woman had these people that she wasn't letting love her, I would say that that would probably be connected to whether she feels lovable.
- [17:53]
B
Absolutely.
- [17:54]
A
Or whether she's always having to earn love or gain love or be in
- [18:00]
B
control of love or be in control
- [18:02]
A
of love rather than just be loved. And so that's how that connects to who God says. What God says is true about her.
- [18:13]
B
Absolutely. She is lovable. He's proven it. If we could just believe it's God. Do you know how lovable you are? God made you lovable. That's how much he loves us. But really, not to digress too far, but to say, what if I could learn that our ability to be loved and to love is a critical evidence of the reality of who I am in Christ? That would be a beautiful thing to know.
- [18:47]
A
I think that's maybe a good spot to end. We need to know that God loves us. We need to know that we're lovable. We need to not only let God love us, but we need to let others love us. That kind of goes both ways, doesn't it? Because I know if I won't let Eileen love me or she won't let me love her, then it becomes imbalanced and. And there's a struggle.
- [19:13]
B
It sounds almost silly, Scott, but it's like this. Jesus said, love one another, just as I have loved you. And the greatest evidence that you are mine is that you love one another. What I've discovered over many years is a whole lot of people love to be the lover. Not many people love to be the lovey. They don't like to be the one receiving love, which we desperately need. They want to be the one giving the love. But it's. But it's an imbalance. As you said, we're going to keep
- [19:45]
A
talking about this process of maturing. I'm sure you're going to hear Bill say you need to believe who God says you are because you're amazing. We hope to see you next week. Thanks for listening. Thanks again for listening to Living Influence. We appreciate you. We'd love it if you'd go to livinginfluence.com, contact us and send us an email. We'd love to know what you're thinking. See you next week.