The Danger of Using the Law to Become Godly

Summary

Living Influence with Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd

Episode: The Danger of Using the Law to Become Godly
Date: November 27, 2025

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode centers on breaking the cycle of "sin management" through a deeper understanding of grace, rather than striving for godliness by adhering to the law. Bill and Scott explore the profound shift that occurs when a Christian moves from self-effort and hiding into a life rooted in who God says they are—a life not enslaved to sin, but freed by grace and honest vulnerability with God and others.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Trap of Sin Management and Its Impact on Identity

• Scott shares a personal story (00:05) about how focusing on his own sin, or lack of it, placed him in a "hopeless spot," feeling disconnected from the experience of salvation.
• Wrestles with the fear that persistent sin means he isn’t really righteous, even doubting past spiritual experiences (00:50).
• He realized through Galatians that accepting any law as necessary for godliness means needing to keep them all, leading to being "cut off from Christ," the very source of grace (01:48).

  “If I accept any law as something I must keep, I have to keep them all. In fact, if I accept any law, I'm cut off from Christ and I've fallen from grace.” —Scott (01:48)

2. Experiencing God’s Love Beyond Knowledge

• Bill reflects that, though he never doubted his salvation, he didn’t experience God’s love; he knew “about” love, but not that it could be tangibly experienced (03:24).
• Experiencing the love of God changes self-perception and enables the ability to love others authentically (05:47).

  “We love God because why? He first loves us.” —Bill (05:44) “When we experience our being loved of God...we become aware that we are loved, which opens us to becoming lovers of each other.” —Bill (06:23)

3. Vulnerability and Breaking Patterns of Sin

• Candid talk about marital conflict: Bill admits, “Years ago, I would have withdrawn from [Grace] into a pity party that could last a long time,” now, it lasts “up to three minutes,” reflecting real transformation (07:00–07:14).
• He traces how he used passiveness as a weapon, learning only later that it was unacknowledged anger (08:22–08:43).

  “I used my passiveness as the voice of my anger...she's really going to pay for what she did because I'm going to withdraw from her…” —Bill (08:02)

• But new self-awareness and vulnerability—acknowledging the reaction and moving toward reconciliation—shows the evidence of righteousness at work (10:09).

  “I even surprise Grace sometimes...I'll go to her and I'll say, honey, that wasn't a good reaction. And she'll go, what happened to you? Who took my husband from me?” —Bill (09:56)

4. Escape from Hiding & Slavery to Sin

• Bill explains that hiding—driven by the shame of sin—leads to greater bondage (11:47–12:51).

  “I hide because I sin, and my hiding makes me a slave to the sin that I do.” —Bill (12:52)

• Honest, trusting relationships are the antidote. Bringing sin into the light breaks its power (13:17).

  “When sin is brought into the light, the power of sin is broken.” —Bill (13:17)

• Avoiding vulnerability and honesty leads to unhealthy church cultures; many measure each other by how little they sin, so everyone hides.

5. Self-Centeredness as the Heart of Sin

• Scott recounts an “executive reinvention” program where he had to evaluate his motivations—finding they were all self-centered, not about others (15:02–17:34).

  “What were those four things all about? They're about me. They were ultimately not about other people. It was selfishly only about me.” —Scott (16:52)

• The hosts emphasize that sin always makes life “about me,” and the law-based solutions feed this self-focus (17:45–18:09).

6. True Godliness: Moving from Self-Effort to New Reality

• Bill: “It's a wonderful thing to want to be godly. It's a horrible thing to be the solution to your godliness.” (18:09)
• The solution to not being a slave to sin is rooted in embracing the new identity and reality gained through Christ.

  “Why am I no longer a slave to sin? Because I've been given a new reality.” —Bill (18:30)

  • They preview that the next episode will dig into what it means to live from this new reality.

7. The Cycle of Shame, Law, and Hopelessness

• Law-based efforts wake up shame, fueling endless efforts to sin less, leading to discouragement and hopelessness if one fails (18:42–19:27).

  “So what do I do? What's my solution to my sin? Work on sinning less until I lose hope, and then I don't care what happens to me. And those people are hopeless.” —Bill (19:07)

• Many Christians, even in church, remain stuck identifying only as “just a sinner,” unable to step into their true identity (19:29–19:35).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Scott: “If I view myself as a sinner, then my focus is going to be on sinning. My focus is also going to be on my not sinning. And it becomes the evidence to me that I am the slave of sin.” (00:23)
• Bill: “When I, as a Christian, seek to use the law to become godly, I, as a Christian, am cutting myself off from grace—which is, by the way, the only solution.” (03:01)
• Bill: “I hide because I sin and my hiding makes me a slave to the sin that I do.” (12:52)
• Scott: “Whatever I hide, I will repeat. Whatever I hide will ultimately define me.” (13:17)
• Bill: “It's a wonderful thing to want to be godly. It's a horrible thing to be the solution to your godliness.” (18:09)
• Bill: “Why am I no longer a slave to sin? Because I've been given a new reality.” (18:30)
• Bill: “So what do I do? What's my solution to my sin? Work on sinning less until I lose hope, and then I don't care what happens to me. And those people are hopeless.” (19:07)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:05 — Introduction and personal story about focusing on sin and the experience of grace
• 01:48 — Galatians principle: accepting law means being "cut off from Christ"
• 03:24 — Bill’s realization of not experiencing God’s love
• 05:44 — Connecting the experience of God’s love to loving others (John 13)
• 07:00–08:43 — How marital conflict revealed unhealthy patterns and transformation through grace
• 11:47–12:52 — The dynamics of hiding, sin, and slavery to sin
• 13:17–13:31 — Quotes about hiding and being defined by what is hidden
• 15:02–17:34 — Scott’s story about self-centeredness at work and the deeper roots of sin
• 18:09–18:30 — The difference between wanting to be godly and trying to become godly through self-effort; introduction to “a new reality”
• 18:42–19:27 — The awakening of shame, endless struggle, and descent into hopelessness

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Overall Tone & Style

Candid, vulnerable, gentle, and invitational. The hosts draw frequently from personal stories, Scripture, and relatable struggles. Their language is encouraging, humble, and deep, inviting listeners into honest self-reflection and hope.

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Summary

In “The Danger of Using the Law to Become Godly,” Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd challenge Christians to abandon "sin management" in favor of embracing the grace and new identity given by Jesus. The episode highlights the destructive cycle of hiding and self-effort, emphasizing that true godliness and influence come not from personal resolve but from experiencing God’s love and living honestly in community. Vulnerability, honesty, and trusting relationships—paired with a right understanding of one’s identity—are set forth as the path out of slavery to sin and into real freedom.

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For listeners seeking to go deeper, next week promises further conversation on what it means to live from the new reality Christ offers.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Living Influence. I'm your host, Scott Boyd, along with my friend and mentor, Bill Thrall. And we've been talking about sinning, being dead to sin. We've been talking about how you view yourself. I feel like we're, like, beating this thing into the ground. But I do think it's important to. Very important to really flush out this thing. If I view myself as a sinner, then my focus is going to be on sinning. My focus is also going to be on my not sinning. And it becomes the evidence to me that I am the slave of sin. And that puts me in a hopeless spot, makes me believe that I'm not righteous, that God and his salvation and that experience that I had in my youth actually wasn't valid. And my story. I've told you about my story. My late wife lost my wife after 38 years to pancreatic cancer. But in her 40s, she also had a bout with breast cancer. It was really scary as well. And it was when I didn't understand grace. And so when she was diagnosed with that breast cancer, I was all about, I want to do the right thing. I want to. I want to be the right kind of person. I want to be her hero. I want to be a model to my sons. And I failed in every which way I could fail. I literally felt like I was in a prison. I literally prayed for God's grace in the middle of that season of my life. It was also in that season of my life that I spent a ton of time in the book of Galatians. I don't know how God did that for me, but he did. It was a gift to me. And as I read Galatians and I actually memorized most of, I came across this principle that if I accept any law as something I must keep, I have to keep them all. In fact, if I accept any law, I'm cut off from Christ and I've fallen from grace. Wow. And that's exactly why we're talking about this as being so important, because we have a resource. His name is Jesus, and what he does is he brings his grace to us.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

And when we don't understand the right view of ourselves and when we don't understand the journey of how to do this Christian life in faith, we cut ourselves off from the very thing that could help us.

[B]

Amen. Well said, Scott. Wow. It just caused me, again, just to reflect on that, what you just said. I'm a Christian. Maybe besides you, maybe no one has ever said to me that when I, as a Christian, seek to use the law to become godly, I, as a Christian, am cutting myself off from grace, which is, by the way, the only solution.

[A]

The only solution we have to the.

[B]

Sin which I'm trying to deal with. I need to now pause whoever I am in this audience. And I need to really ask myself, how do I view me? Do I really see myself as God sees me, as a saint? Am I really experiencing God's love? In my own Christian faith, my own walk? I lived many years, many years, confident of my Savior. In fact, I don't remember ever doubting my salvation. But I did not experience love. I wasn't experiencing love. I didn't even say it this way. I know the Bible tells me God loves me. I knew that, but I didn't know that that love that he has for me could actually be experienced. And when I began to experience the love of God, I began to experience a very different view of me. That was what was beginning to happen in me because I had this reality that my life experience with my family extended was that I just wasn't lovable. Something was wrong with me.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And that's the story of a lot of people. So. So how do I.

[A]

It was a lie. You believed.

[B]

I lie. I believed, yeah. So how do I. How do I then begin to live into this God? Live into a relationship with this God, where I'm experiencing his love, Where I see him intentionally moving toward me for my best and convincing me that I was more important to him than anything he'd ever do for me. I lived my whole Christian life to that point, wondering, what are all these wonderful things God's going to do for me? But I began to experience God's love. When I began to experience God putting such an emphasis on the significance of me more than anything you could ever do for me, it began to convince me that I'm loved. Then something happens. This is a truism in Scripture. We love God because why he first loves us.

[A]

Yeah, see?

[B]

So what happens? And when we experience that love of God, I then become someone who is able to love God. And then something beautiful happens. I move from this reality into loving you. And that's why I often just jump real quick to John 13. And Jesus said, the world will know you, my disciples. Why? Because of your love for one another. So many Christians, God, they never experience this love because they've never experienced this love. When we experience our being loved of God, something's happening to our hearts. We become aware that we are loved, which Opens us to becoming lovers of each other.

[A]

So we're talking about how do I view myself? And do I view myself like a sinner or a saint? So, just a personal question. Do you ever have a little spat with grace these days, my dear wife? Yes.

[B]

Oh, yes. Yes, thank you. Yes, I do.

[A]

How does that play out in this framework of like, oh, I'm a sinner again. I'm sinning. What's going on in you?

[B]

Yeah, well, thank you. That's a very, very good, very honest question. Years ago, I would have withdrawn from her into a pity party that could last a long time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That would have been my response to a disagreement with grace. Now, by God's grace, a disagreement with grace still causes me to withdraw, and sometimes up to three minutes. Truly, that's a miracle. Yeah, that's a miracle. I can sense very quickly the pattern by which I withdrew because I would use my passiveness as the voice of my anger.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's what I did. I used my. As my voice of my anger. And she's really going to pay for what she did because I'm going to withdraw from her for as long as it takes for her to repent of her nonsense.

[A]

I'm feeling a little guilt here.

[B]

Exactly. And so I lived into that reality by God's grace and my wife. Grace has drawn my attention to my doing this.

[A]

And.

[B]

Listen, Scott, I'm just being honest with you. I used to brag about how not angry I was. I used to just brag about it until the Lord and a few close people like my wife convinced me that my passiveness was my anger was your anger. And I was just as angry as my father and mother, who screamed all the time.

[A]

Even though you didn't scream?

[B]

Even though I didn't scream, my anger was silent. But you know what I was doing? I was using my passiveness to get even with you, whoever you were. And you just asked me about grace. So Grace and I just, in these last couple days have had tension over some decisions we're making, and it's amazing. I can't believe it. But she doesn't still agree with me on everything. It's just we've been married 64 years, and, Scott, I wish I could tell you that every time I have the best reaction. I don't. But what I have learned is I've learned to catch that reaction because I've watched the cycle of the dysfunction destroy me. What I just did was I described something. I described the very thing we're talking about. Is it possible For a person to no longer be a slave to the pattern of the sin that define them. That's what we just talked about. Do I still react yet? But am I a slave? Not to my reaction.

[A]

Yeah. No. Now you have a choice.

[B]

I even surprise Grace sometimes within those first couple minutes. And I'll go to her and I'll say, honey, that wasn't a good reaction. And she'll go, what happened to you? Who took my husband from me?

[A]

Where did Bill go?

[B]

Where did Bill go?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's like, wait a minute. Could it's just using me as an example. Could that transformation of my awareness.

[A]

Be.

[B]

Actually an act of love toward her? And could that act of love for her actually be the evidence of my righteousness?

[A]

Is that kind of like a weakness, being made strong?

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What if that were true?

[A]

Vulnerability becomes a connection.

[B]

And so it causes me just to ask this question for both of us. How does this happen? How does God work in the heart of a person to convince them that even though they are capable of still sinning, they are no longer slaves to sin? The pattern of yesterday does not have to define you today. Well, that would be amazing. Is it possible? The answer. Yes, it is possible. See, I understand something. I understand theologically. I understand that once I was spiritually alive and I sinned in Adam and. And I died. I understand that.

[A]

Yeah. You read Romans 6 and Adam.

[B]

Yeah, Romans 5 and 6.

[A]

Everyone was made a sinner In.

[B]

In. In Adam.

[A]

I can ask everybody in the room, do you feel that that's true of you?

[B]

And they always say, yes. Everybody says, I had a woman in New Jersey, didn't raise her hand, but everybody else does.

[A]

Every Christian. Let's say that. Yeah.

[B]

Every Christian believer raises their hands because they believe that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So as I think about this not being a slave to sin, for me, that reality was that I practiced and became a master at hiding. I got so good at hiding, my theology gave me permission to hide the fact that I was practicing sin because we were measuring each other by how little we sinned. So when I get measured with you by how little we sin, I'm just going to lie to you about the sin that I do. And we practice. We literally practice hiding. And I became good at it.

[A]

That's why there's so much unhealth in our churches.

[B]

Oh, absolutely. Because people are not being taught to be honest and vulnerable. I hide because I sin, and my hiding makes me a slave to the sin that I do.

[A]

Yeah, that's a good quote.

[B]

That's it. I hide because I sin. And my hiding makes me a slave to the sin that I do. So how do I come. Literally, how does anybody come out of hiding? How do I not become a slave to the sin that I do? Come out of hiding. That's a good way. Come out of. Heidi. Let what is true about you be known, because this is what happens when sin is brought into the light. The power of sin is broken.

[A]

Right. The light is amazing. And we have quotes on this topic, like, whatever I hide, I will repeat Amen. Whatever I hide will ultimately define me.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

We know that those are like terrifying quotes.

[B]

But you know what? We know them.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

In fact, we wrote them right now. What we're trying to say today is this. Don't deny your reality.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Don't deny you did die spiritually.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You are spiritually dead. Yeah. You do hide. Here's the clue. How do you live to where you're no longer a slave to sin when you come out of hiding in the sin that you do? Where do we find relationships where we could be honest, Scott? I'm being very vulnerable when I say to you I needed to find men that I could trust with the things I hid. I needed to find him. And they had to be men who didn't feel it was their obligation to report to the world what I was hiding. They needed to be men that I could trust that I was hiding, who were willing to stand alongside me in the process of helping me see a solution that God had to me. The solution that God had to me was to convince me that that was not who I was. This is a hard statement. Most of us believe that the things we do are who we are. No, they're not. The things that we do are the expression of who we are. I am still a Christian and I can do these things. This scares a lot of Christians to be this one.

[A]

Yeah. I want to tell another story, too. This sinner conversation. I think it's even more invasive than we imagine in our person before we become Christians and when we become a Christian and we're in sin management. It's my story of. I did this two week long intensive called this executive reinvention program. And in this program, they made every person. It wasn't particularly. It wasn't scripturally biblically based program that we went through. It was about executive reinvention. It's about helping your company do the impossible. And in the program, we had to answer these four questions. And they were, when I go to work, I listen for what do I Listen for. And then. So I had to answer that, what do I listen for? I listen for what game's getting played so I can know how to win so as to act by. And so we would go into action. And one of my key strengths in going to action is delegating, empowering, inspiring others to act, you know, so that we can win. And then it was in order to be, which is interesting. Well, what was my in order to be? I wanted to be viewed as a good man. I wanted to be revered. I wanted to be loved by others and then avoid being. And what did I want to avoid being? I wanted to avoid being my dad. My dad was an alcoholic. I didn't want to be like my dad. I can look in the mirror and see a likeness of myself that looks like my dad. And it triggers me still.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

But here's the interesting thing. So all that was about how do I win in this game called life? What's your winning strategy? That's what they called answering these four questions I listened for. So as to act by. In order to be, in order to not and avoid being. But here's what those four things were all about. They're about me. They were ultimately not about other people. It was selfishly only about me. And that's where I think this sinful nature is. Only about me. It's a self centered nature. And so it's like it's a broader scope than we imagined. And I just think it kind of fits in here.

[B]

Oh, it does fit. Fits perfectly. Because here's the deal. Here's our supposition. How do I move from being all about me.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

To not being a slave to sin?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because guess what? Sin does. Sin always makes it about me.

[A]

It always makes it about me.

[B]

Always makes it about me.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So how do I do that? I talked about Heidi. Why? Because I wanted to look good. I wanted you to think I was more godly than I was. I was a holy mess. But I would never tell anybody.

[A]

But that's a good thing to want to be godly. Right.

[B]

It's a wonderful thing to want to be godly. It's a horrible thing to be the solution to your godliness.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

It's a wonderful thing.

[A]

Somebody say we need a savior.

[B]

Exactly. Yes. And somebody might say to me, as a Christian, you need the confidence of who God says you are. And that's what the Savior gave me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He gave me a new reality. Why am I no longer a slave to sin? Because I've been given a new reality. And the next time we meet together, we're gonna talk about that.

[A]

Yeah, but.

[B]

But this. This part right here, you know what spiritually dead did to me? It causes me to have my shame awakened.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And guess what happens the minute my shame is awakened? I begin to find a solution to my sin. That's what I do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's what Adam and Eve did.

[A]

Fig leaves.

[B]

And that's what I do.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So what do I do? What's my solution to my sin? Work on sinning less until I lose hope, and then I don't care what happens to me. And those people are hopeless. Gosh, this is a hard message, Scott.

[A]

Because I know hopeless people.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I know people, even in my church, and they're stuck on I'm just a sinner.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And they beat themselves up.

[B]

And so we're going to keep beating this theme. We're going to say it as many different times as we can. Ladies and gentlemen, whoever you are, listen to us. Listen. Move into a new reality. And I know a lot of people are going to balk right there. They're going to go, you guys, what are you smoking? Because. What do you mean, a new reality? It is not possible to live without being a slave to sin. Yes, it is. Yes, it is.

[A]

And we're going to talk about next week.

[B]

Next week.

[A]

All right, you guys, thanks for listening. We love that you join us on Living Influence. Hit like and subscribe. We want to keep seeing those subscriber numbers go up. I'm hoping by the end of the year, we're going to be over 10,000. Amen. And so let's just speak a goal out there, but we'll see you next week. Thanks. Thank you for listening to the podcast. We're really glad that you're here. We'd love to know that you're here. And so if you could leave a comment, we would appreciate that. But more importantly, if you know someone that should listen to this or hear it, we would love for you to share it with them. Thanks again.