Why Maturity Requires Trust, Not Just Time

Summary

Podcast Summary: Living Influence with Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd

Episode: Why Maturity Requires Trust, Not Just Time
Date: February 5, 2026
Hosts: Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd

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Overview

In this episode, Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd explore the core idea that spiritual and personal maturity is determined by growth in trust—not simply the passage of time. Drawing from their personal experience, faith journeys, and practical examples, they articulate why trust, safe relationships, and vulnerability are essential for true maturity—particularly within Christian communities. The hosts emphasize that creating environments where people can be open about their struggles is critical both to spiritual growth and to healthy influence on others.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Maturing as a Process of Trust, Not Timeline

[01:41 – 04:33]

• The hosts outline three stages of spiritual maturity:
  1. Me-centered: Trusting Jesus for one's sin.
  2. Other-centered: Trusting Jesus with one's person and reality.
  3. Christ-centered: Trusting Jesus with one's future.
• Maturing often happens cyclically and in different areas of life at different times.
• Quote (Bill Thrall, 01:41):
  “It’s not so much of a timeline as it is a trust line.”
• Trusting God transforms a person more than merely practicing spiritual disciplines.

2. Trust Is Built on Truth, Not Just Practices

[02:03 – 04:33]

• The process of maturing is “built on principles of truth that, when trusted, transform me.”
• Practices and routines alone don't yield transformation—trust in truth does.
• Trust is needed repeatedly in different life domains.

3. Maturity Requires Others—Not Isolation

[04:33 – 06:20]

• True transformation and maturing require engaging with others.
• Authentic growth happens in the context of relationships, not solo learning.
• Quote (Scott Boyd, 04:46):
  “I can’t mature without another in the game with me, and helping me mature.”
• Early believers often try to learn in isolation out of shame, which “robs years” of growth.

4. The Necessity and Nature of Safe Spaces

[06:20 – 12:10]

• New or young believers need “safe spaces”—environments characterized by honesty, confidentiality, and compassion.
• Safe spaces allow for vulnerability and the sharing of personal stories.
• Bill Thrall shares a typical cohort exercise:
  Groups list what constitutes a safe space: honesty, integrity, willingness to listen, confidentiality, acceptance, compassion, forgiveness, and authenticity.
• Quote (Bill Thrall, 07:50):
  “The secret sauce is not in the what. The secret sauce is in the how.”
• Safety is cultivated not by listing qualities, but by modeling them—especially honesty first.

5. Modeling Vulnerability and Learning to Tell Stories

[09:23 – 12:10]

• Scott recounts ministry work in Guatemala, highlighting cultural tendencies toward legalism and hiding struggles.
• He deliberately models vulnerability by sharing his story first, which encourages others to reciprocate.
• This practice reveals that people, even after 30 years together, often hadn’t shared deeply before.
• Quote (Scott Boyd, 11:42):
  “When someone shared their story, I said, this is holy ground that we've just been standing [on]. And so we need to treat it as holy.”

6. The Tragedy of Hiding—and the Liberation of Being Known

[12:10 – 16:30]

• Many people, even after decades of faith, have never shared their true stories.
• Hiding leads to making one’s wounds or sins core to their identity, stalling growth.
• Quote (Bill Thrall, 14:54):
  “Often, they’ll say, ‘This is the first time I’ve ever told my story’—with a lot of weeping and sadness…that’s tragic.”
• Being truly known in community replaces shame with acceptance and fosters transformative trust.

7. Respect through Vulnerability

[15:38 – 16:23]

• People often fear losing respect if they share their struggles but almost universally receive greater respect and connection.
• Quote (Scott Boyd, 16:23):
  “Getting others to go, ‘Oh my gosh, I can’t tell you how much more I respect you knowing the story’—that’s almost always, I’ve never not seen that to be true.”

8. Don’t Fix—Come Alongside

[16:30 – 18:20]

• Effective safe spaces are marked by the absence of a need to 'fix' each other.
• Drawing parallels with Alcoholics Anonymous: mutual brokenness removes judgment and fosters authentic support.
• Quote (Bill Thrall, 18:01):
  “I can’t fix you because I’m sick. …The minute we take the superior position, we’ve lost the person.”

9. The Danger of Isolation—Especially for Leaders

[20:05 – 21:46]

• Even seasoned Christians—including pastors—desperately need safe spaces.
• Over half of Christian leaders don’t finish well, and the primary reason is isolation.
• Quote (Bill Thrall, 20:35):
  “The number one cause of their failure is isolation.”
• The spiral: isolation → hiddenness → vulnerability to sin → wrong choices → loss of hope → minimized person.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It’s not so much of a timeline as it is a trust line.”
  —Bill Thrall, 01:41
• “I can’t mature without another in the game with me, and helping me mature.”
  —Scott Boyd, 04:46
• “The secret sauce is not in the what. The secret sauce is in the how.”
  —Bill Thrall, 07:50
• “When someone shared their story, I said, this is holy ground that we've just been standing [on].”
  —Scott Boyd, 11:42
• “Often… they’ll say, ‘This is the first time I’ve ever told my story’—with a lot of weeping and sadness…that’s tragic.”
  —Bill Thrall, 14:54
• “Getting others to go, ‘Oh my gosh, I can’t tell you how much more I respect you knowing the story’—that’s almost always, I’ve never not seen that to be true.”
  —Scott Boyd, 16:23
• “The minute we take the superior position, we’ve lost the person.”
  —Bill Thrall, 18:01
• "The number one cause of their failure is isolation."
  —Bill Thrall, 20:35

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Important Timestamps & Segments

• [01:41] – “Trust line” vs. “timeline”; Maturity as process.
• [04:46] – Importance of others to the maturing process.
• [07:50] – How-to of safe spaces, not just the what.
• [09:23] – Vulnerability in leadership (Story from Guatemala).
• [11:42] – Treating stories as holy ground.
• [14:54] – The tragedy of never telling one’s story.
• [16:23] – Respect is gained, not lost, through openness.
• [18:01] – Dangers of a “fixing” mentality in small groups.
• [20:35] – The connection between leadership failure and isolation.

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Conclusion & Reflections

This episode underscores that maturity—both spiritual and personal—is not a matter of age or duration but is the fruit of trusting God and others. True transformation flourishes in environments where safe, honest, and vulnerable relationships are modeled and cultivated. The strongest influence stems not from perfection, but from authentic personhood and the willingness to trust, be known, and allow others the same.

Bill and Scott leave listeners with reflective, practical questions:

• Have you found a safe place to tell your story? [21:46]
• Are you creating opportunities for others to experience that safety?

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End of summary.

Transcript

[A]

Hey guys, I just want to tell you about something else that Bill Voldemort and I are working on. It's called Living Influence Leadership. It's for business leaders who also happen to be Christians. We think we've got some great stuff that can be amazing in your company as it was in mine. Check us [e-mail] welcome to Living Influence. We've been talking about the process of maturing. And just to give you a review, it's always good to review. Talking about the three stages of maturing, where in the first stage we call it the me centered stage. It's where I trust Jesus for my sin. The second stage, we call the other centered stage. It's where I begin to trust Jesus with my person, with my reality, with what's actually true about me. And then the third stage is the Christ centered stage is where we begin to trust Jesus with our future. Might be the scariest step, at least in my mind, but it's again, one of those steps. But we're going to transition. Stay on this topic. But we're going to be beginning to talk about how do I know where I'm at? What do these stages actually feel like as an experience? And just a curveball. I always like to throw Bill a curveball. Can I have this process of maturing happen in one area of my life? And then lo and behold, I find it's happening again in a whole other area. And so I go through these steps often in a circular manner. Yeah.

[B]

Amen, Scott. Good point. And it's not so much of a timeline as it is a trust line.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I, I can live a long time, so to speak, and not trust. I trust that. Wow, I can be trusting something. Doesn't work. The point is this. It's a process.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the process is built on, and say this carefully. The process is built on principles of truth that when trusted, transform me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The process is not built on practices that will make me more godly. It's built on truth that when trusted, will transform me. And so when I am trusting God with truth on any subject in my life, I will never be the same. That's the key to this whole process, teaching people to trust.

[A]

Yeah. But you could find your trust in God. Like, let's say you're trusting God in this area with your children, and then all of a sudden you go, oh, wait, I haven't done this at work. I haven't done this with my career or any of. In a particular area.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Then I get to go.

[B]

And what you're doing there is excellent because there are moments where I am discovering that my effort is not producing the same result that my trust would.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so it's like it's not, I trust God once and it's all done. It's a continuing processing of trusting God in the reality of my life with my family and others and Him. So think of the process as a process of trusting. And as I am trusting, something's happening. Truth, when it is trusted, will transform me. Now, do I have a lot to learn? Of course. Do I have a lot to trust? Of course. I'm screaming again with my screaming voice by saying, these are not a once and done deal. It's a process. And I'm growing and understanding how to grow in that process. As I've said earlier a couple times, one of the great evidences that I know that I am maturing, that I've trusted something differently, is when the focus of my life changes from me to you. I know. Then something happened. Something happened that was spiritually amazing.

[A]

Well, the other interesting thing I'm sitting here thinking about as we're just talking about this, is this process of maturing can't happen without another.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I can't mature without another in the game with me.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

And helping me mature.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

I mean, which is like, in my early days of my being a believer, I didn't want people to know what I didn't know. And so I, in hiding, tried to learn things by myself because it was shameful for me to not know. And it just. Oh, my gosh, that robbed me of years.

[B]

Excellent point. So even what you just said can kind of is a truism of the New Testament. The majority of the letters in the New Testament are written to a community of people, not to an individual. Because the Christian faith is a relational faith. It is actually the intention of God that you grow in the context of others and others grow in your context. Because that's how we mature in our relationship with God and others. And so that's going to be the theme that we're going to just keep repeating because it's important for us to know that I need you and that you need me and that love is going to be, again, the greatest evidence of our relationship with Him.

[A]

Yeah. So we'll start with the young believer. The young believer has a need. I have a need for a safe space.

[B]

Right.

[A]

What does that mean? If. If I want to create a safe space for a young believer?

[B]

When we do our cohorts One of the things we do is, is we have the group break into groups and maybe have three or four. And I give them a simple assignment. What would a safe place be for you?

[A]

Just ask persons.

[B]

Yeah, it's a group. They write down an answer what a safe place would be for them. I just brought this with me from one of my cohorts, and I just want to read to you an example of what one group said. In order for it to be a safe place, it must be a place where people are honest, express integrity, are willing to listen, understand confidentiality, understand what it's like to be vulnerable, have a great sense of acceptance, share a lot of compassion, forgive when forgiveness is necessary, that people are authentic and that they are modeling together, trusting. Now, that's an example of a list very similar to every other list I ever get. Scott, Everybody has a list.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I call it the what. What do I need for there to be a safe place? Well, I need these things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But the secret sauce is not in the what.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The secret sauce is in the how. How do you and I create a place where people are honest?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What does it take to teach someone to be honest? What does it take for people to understand how integrity is always for the benefit of others? What does it take to teach? So here's the key.

[A]

For me, what's screaming in me is, okay, to create a place where people are honest, I have to model honesty.

[B]

Excellent.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Excellent.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And here's the thing. We can create the what with the assumption that people actually do this, or we can be wise enough to know people actually need to learn this so they can do it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

What if we taught people to listen rather than tell? What if we taught people that confidentiality is critical? Why? Why is it critical? What happens when confidentiality is broken? Trust is violated. So that when we use that phrase for young people, create a safe place. We're talking about creating a place where people actually can process the what of what's required for some place to be safe. And oh, by the way, this only takes tons of time, tons of energy, tons of effort, and tons of learning. But it's critical.

[A]

Yeah. I've been working with a team that runs a ministry in Guatemala.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And the Guatemalan culture is a culture of performance. It's very legalistic.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And. And in fact, they're taught, the pastors are taught when you minister to someone, you must not tell them that you struggle with what they're struggling with. I mean, you gotta. So you gotta pretend like you have it figured out.

[B]

Yeah. And the minute you do, you're no longer safe.

[A]

So I started teaching that you actually need to learn how to hear someone's vulnerable story and respond to it properly. And you have to then actually learn how to tell your story and experience people responding to your story. And so you got to do both. And if you haven't experienced both, you won't understand this experience.

[B]

And so that's beautiful.

[A]

And so I modeled by telling my story first and asking for their response of, like, what did you experience as you heard me tell my story?

[B]

Excellent.

[A]

And then we took the leader of the group, and he did the same. And so now I have members of this team, and they've known each other for 30 years, and they're telling stories.

[B]

For the first time, for the first.

[A]

Time ever, they didn't know this about one another.

[B]

I believe it.

[A]

I'm still thinking they're learning to trust. I still think they're thinking that I've now disqualified myself. And. And I'm hoping in the coming couple of years that that changes.

[B]

Excellent. Well, and. And so that triggers in. In me a reality. You just quickly mentioned several things that make a place safe. So that critical to safety is permission for story to be told.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And to not be critiqued, criticized, minimized, but loved.

[A]

Yeah. I always say it's like when someone shared their story, I said, this is holy ground that we've just been standing.

[B]

Good for you.

[A]

And so we need to treat it as holy. And what was shared is this person's story. And it's not your story. It's not your story to tell.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

It's not your story to tell unless you have their permission to tell it. But if they don't give. If they've not given that permission, you cannot tell it. But it's holy. It's amazing what it does to a group.

[B]

So for a young believer, what do they need? They need that safe place.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because we are aware that they come into, as we said earlier in one of our sessions, because they come into their faith, they're very aware of what their sin and the sin of others have done to them. And so our propensity is to hide. We. A safe place does. In your example in Guatemala, a safe place does. It creates an opportunity for the truth of my story to be told. Now, what that does, the safe place creates a place where I do not have to hide. Your example was the Guatemalan pastors are taught to hide.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They're taught to hide. Well, this is a no dust Statement. But sin flourishes in darkness. Just. It's like teaching Guatemalan pastors to hide is giving Guatemalan pastors to sit a lot, because that's what happens in hiding. But as we talk about this process of maturing and we have this young believer, and we're giving them a safe place where they can be known so they don't have to go into hiding. And as we said earlier, because this we know hiding is the place where whatever I'm hiding becomes my identity. Isn't that tragic? Yeah, it's tragic. Now, I already know that when I meet new believers or I meet believers who have never been in a safe place, I already know they're hiding. It isn't like I make it up. Yeah, I already know they're hiding. What I also know is they have yet to discover a place where it's safe, where they don't have to hide. And so one of our goals is to be a place where that is true. And I keep referring to our cohorts, but that's what we do. We create a safe place. And then people tell their stories. And as you are experiencing in your story, you tell it a lot is that people say by looking at you, I'd never know that was true. I never knew that was true. And I just have so many stories of people in our cohorts who have stood up and some of them been Christians 20, 30 years. Often. Often, Scott, they'll say, this is the first time I've ever told my story.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With a lot of weeping and sadness. Now to me, I scream, that's tragic. So let me back up and say, do we understand that in order for Christians to mature, they have to be in a safe place where they no longer have to hide what was true about them, and they can discover what can be true about them from now on. That's the process of maturing. I will never mature if the reality of the sin that has been done to me and the sin that I do, I will never mature if that is still my identity. Yeah.

[A]

And then the other thing that's really true is everyone believes if I tell my story, I will lose respect.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Everyone believes that that's true when what they actually experience is people actually respect them more when they've told their story. I had no idea that you had gone through that or that that was your struggle or that you've come from there. Oh, my goodness. So getting to tell your story and getting to. Then this is why you need the others. Getting others to go, oh, my gosh I. I can't tell you how much more I respect you knowing the story.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

That's almost always. I've never not seen that to be true.

[B]

I. I agree with you. Now, here's an interesting reality. Because it's a safe place. Nobody in the room has a desire to fix what they've heard. Everybody in the room has a desire to come alongside the one who told the story. I just gave a good insight to health. Nobody likes to get fixed. I'm just going to mention that, the obvious. Nobody likes to get fixed. So what we do is like these pastors, we hide our reality for fear.

[A]

For fear that somebody's going to come fix me.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah. And in fact, sometimes that happens. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, it should happen, but not in that moment.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There are things in the story that probably do need attention, but in the moment, the person needs to be affirmed.

[A]

Well, I've made the observation that one of the things that I think helps Alcoholics Anonymous be successful is is everybody in the group says, hi, my name is Scott and I'm an alcoholic. And everybody does that. And they all have an inability to deal with alcohol.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so nobody's trying to fix each other.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

But you take a small group. Hi, my name's Scott. I struggle with lust. Hi, my name's John. I struggle with greed. Hi, my name's Ingrid. I struggle with gossip. You know, let's just do that. Well, everybody, I don't struggle with gossip. Let me tell you how to fix it.

[B]

Exactly. Well said. That's a great example. Yeah, let's not forget that example. The key is what you just said. Alcoholics Anonymous. I can't fix you because I'm sick. If we could just hear that, Scott, hear your point. Look, I'm not here to fix you. I have flesh too. I have flesh too. See, it's like the minute we take the superior position, we've lost the person. The minute you've lost the person in that moment of telling, that person needs to be affirmed and loved, even though they're admitting they're screwed up, but they're admitting they're screwed up in a room full of screwed up people. And that, to me, is the key to safety. So bringing a young believer into an environment where they can be honest about what is true about them without somebody needing to fix them in a room where other people, maybe older than they, more experienced in the faith, can say, hey, let's love each other through the process and let's do something. Let's be intentional about Working on your story. That's all. Let's be intentional about working on your story. We be intentional, not me telling you what you need to do to get better now. So I say we said that as a safe place for young believers. But I've learned something, Scott. I spend time with 20, 30, 40 years of Christian people there in the 40s, 50s, and 60s. They need a safe place, too. And sometimes spiritual leaders are sometimes the most wounded because like the Guatemalan pastors, there's no safe place for them to be real. Because the false expectations of their role have robbed them of their person.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And the more personable a pastor is coming around their role, the more effective they are. But many of them hide in the protection of their role and it horribly messes with them. Not that we're talking about pastors, except to make this point. Tragically, in our culture called America, 50 to 64% of all Christian leaders do not finish well.

[A]

More than half.

[B]

More than half, let me say this. And the number one cause of their failure is isolation. Number two so far and behind it, I don't remember what it is.

[A]

Yeah, so.

[B]

So it's. Here's, here's what we're saying now. We're covering this a safe place. Why? Because we've learned something. Isolation breeds isolation breeds hiddenness. Hiddenness breeds vulnerability to sin. Vulnerability to sin breeds wrong life choices. Wrong life choices breed loss of hope. Loss of hope means minimizing person. And all of a sudden I'm in a spiral down. So what if we could say, let's be those who are willing to create a safe place where believers, not just young believers, where believers have a chance to tell their story so the reality of who they are can be known. And if it needs attention, that we are able to trust God with his solutions to our needs, that's the key.

[A]

So the question is, have you found a safe place to tell your story?

[B]

Amen.

[A]

Have you provided an opportunity for someone else to have a safe place to tell their story? Thanks for watching Living Influence. We hope to see you next week. Thanks for listening to Living Influence. We appreciate you. Just a call to action. We would love it if you would share our podcast with one or two people this week. Thanks again.