Why Your Theology Shapes Your Shame—But Also Your Freedom

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: Living Influence with Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd
Episode: Why Your Theology Shapes Your Shame—But Also Your Freedom
Release Date: September 11, 2025
Hosts: Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd

In this episode, Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd explore the vital role of personal theology in shaping both shame and freedom in the life of a believer. Drawing deeply from Ephesians 4 and personal stories, they discuss how our view of ourselves—whether rooted in shame or in God-given identity—unlocks or restricts our capacity to love, mature, and influence others.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Power of Theology in Shaping Identity

• Scott opens with, “Does God declare who we are, or are we on a continuous improvement plan?” (00:03) He reflects on how complex and sometimes dizzying it can be navigating questions of sin, identity, and grace.

• Bill highlights that many Christians unknowingly remain in bondage to shame because of a theology that emphasizes “trying to become godly” rather than maturing into what God already says they are (01:27).

  “Our theology has a profound impact on either our being in the bondage of shame, or in the freedom... without condemnation.” — Bill (03:37)

2. Grace Changes the Language of the Heart

• The hosts discuss a critical shift: seeing Scriptural commands not as a list of “ought to’s” but as descriptions of what’s possible because of a changed identity.

  • Bill: “Grace... changes the language of my heart from I ought to, to I can.” (03:00)
  • This reframing shifts Ephesians 4 from a checklist to a guide for maturing as someone already redeemed.

  “The Christian life is not about changing who I used to be into who I ought to be. The Christian life is about maturing into who I am.” — Bill (04:40)

3. Personal Stories: Freedom from Shame

• An unnamed female participant shares a personal story illustrating the futility of trying to beat shame through self-punishment (smashing her head as a consequence for swearing). (06:10)

• Her journey moves from punishment, to “10 pushups,” to a freeing prayer of repentance, underlining the liberation found in grace (06:27–06:50).

  “That’s freedom for me.” — Unnamed Female Participant (06:48)

4. Theology: Condemnation vs. Freedom

• Bill contrasts two theological mindsets:

  • One that defines believers as “sinners full of shame” (bondage).
  • Another that views believers as “alive with a new life worth living” (freedom). (06:50–08:02)

• Maturity, they argue, is growing into an identity that’s already been gifted; not laboring to become something different.

  “Help me grow up into who I am. That changes my whole perspective.” — Bill (08:03)

5. Repentance and Forgiveness as Gifts

• Scott reframes repentance and forgiveness not as burdensome commands but as gifts for keeping relationships healed (08:10–08:46).

  “These are gifts that you can use.” — Scott (08:41)

6. Shame: A Sense of Not Being Enough

• The group agrees that shame is “the sense that something's not right with me... I'm not quite enough,” and that understanding our completeness in Christ removes this root of shame (09:34–10:08).

  “There's nothing wrong with me anymore... I’m complete.” — Unnamed Female Participant (09:53)

7. Freedom Isn’t Passivity—It’s a Call to Mature Love

• Addressing concerns that grace leads to passivity, Bill stresses:

  • “The Christian life is about maturing.” (09:58)
  • Truly hard work: “Love your neighbor as yourself... Love your enemy.” (11:01)

  “It's so much harder than trying not to sin.” — Bill (11:08)

8. Self-Understanding, Gifting, and Community

• Discussion extends into business and leadership. The ability to:
  • Embrace strengths and protect weaknesses (Scott, 12:51–13:19)
  • See personal gifting as part of a greater “us,” empowering community and collaboration.

9. Sin Management: A Flawed Theology

• Scott reads an excerpt (13:54–14:53) on the dangers of “sin management”—a theology that keeps Christians working to become something God says they already are, leading to frustration instead of freedom.

  “If I work on my sin, I’ll love less. And probably sin more. If I work on loving, I’ll love more. But I’ll sin less.” — Scott (14:53–15:01)

10. The Heart: From “Deceitfully Wicked” to Made New

• Bill shares a personal and emotional testimony (15:03–19:21):

  • For years, he didn’t trust his heart, believing it was “deceitfully wicked”—which kept him from genuine relationships and honesty.
  • Trusting in his new heart, given by God’s grace, brought joy and the capacity to be authentic and trustworthy.

  “If I believe I cannot trust my heart, I am convinced I have no solution to my shame. But what if I have, by God’s grace, a new heart?” — Bill (18:15)

• Unnamed Female Participant: “Jesus sacrificed too much to give us back our old heart. Why would he do that?” (19:21)

11. The Christian Life: Freedom Through Declared Truth

• Scott succinctly concludes:

  “The Christian life is not a continuous improvement project. The Christian life begins in the declared truth that God says is true about us. And as we trust that, it leads us to freedom.” (19:29–19:43)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Grace... changes the language of my heart from I ought to, to I can.” — Bill (03:00)
• “The Christian life is not about changing who I used to be into who I ought to be. The Christian life is about maturing into who I am.” — Bill (04:40)
• “If I work on my sin, I'll love less. And probably sin more. If I work on loving, I'll love more. But I'll sin less.” — Scott (14:53)
• “If I believe I cannot trust my heart, I am convinced I have no solution to my shame. But what if I have, by God's grace, a new heart?” — Bill (18:15)
• “The Christian life is not a continuous improvement project. The Christian life begins in the declared truth that God says is true about us. And as we trust that, it leads us to freedom.” — Scott (19:29)

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Segment Timestamps

• 00:03 – Opening: The fight between declared identity vs. “continuous improvement”
• 01:27 – Bill on shame, theology, and reading Ephesians 4
• 03:00 – “Grace changes the language of my heart...”
• 06:10–06:48 – Story about self-imposed punishment and maturing into freedom
• 08:10–08:46 – Repentance and forgiveness reframed as healing gifts
• 09:34–10:08 – Defining and defeating shame—embracing completeness in Christ
• 11:00–11:08 – The “hard work” of loving neighbor and enemy
• 13:54–14:53 – Reading: The trap of “sin management”
• 15:03–19:21 – Bill's testimony: Heart transformation and freedom from shame
• 19:29–19:43 – Conclusion: Declared truth and living in freedom

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Summary Tone & Language

The episode’s tone is vulnerable, encouraging, and practical, marked by wisdom and gentle challenge. Bill and Scott’s conversational style and personal stories create a safe, practical context for exploring the deep theological roots of shame and freedom.

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For Listeners

This episode is a must for anyone wrestling with shame, stuck in a “never enough” mentality, or longing to experience the freedom and maturity promised in Christ. The hosts affirm: Your identity is declared, not achieved—freedom is yours to receive and live out, not a never-ending project of “working on yourself.”

Recommended next episodes: Future discussions on "sin management" and living out your new identity in practical, daily community.

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Transcript

[Scott]

Does God declare who we are, or are we on a continuous improvement plan? Welcome to Living Influence. Well, if you've been watching these last few weeks and you're not dizzy, I don't know if you've been listening, because we've been talking about being dead and being alive and what God declares versus our experience. It's really important stuff. It's stuff that I don't know that I got the first two or three times I heard it. And so today we're going to continue talking about the theology behind this, and we're going to start in Ephesians 4, chapter 4, verse 2532.

[Voldemort]

Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members of one another. Be angry and do not sin. Do not let the sun go down on your anger and give no opportunity to the devil. Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor doing honest work with his own hands so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up as fits the occasion that it may give grace to those who hear and do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

[Bill]

Thank you, Baltimore. In this series, our goal was to imagine together. How is it that I learn that my shame no longer defines me and that I can live, not condemned? And so we have carefully talked about, how would that happen? Can I trust Jesus with my shame? And we spent a lot of time talking about, can I trust Jesus, took me to death with him? Can I trust Jesus that he brought me to new life? But over the years, I'm learning that there's another thing that kind of keeps me in the bondage of my shame. It's actually my theology. And that gets weird for people very quickly. So Voldemort read those verses to us, and depending on our theology, how we read those verses becomes very critical. If I read those verses as things I ought to do or things I should do to become godly, my shame will be triggered and I will be defeated, and I will not have the joy of a new life.

[Scott]

That happened to me a lot as I entered this grace message. And I would see the verses that Paul clearly is talking about grace and about no condemnation and about freedom and about walking in the spirit. And then I would see these verses and I would like, go, well, I'm confused.

[Bill]

Yeah, a lot of people are, Scott. Yeah, A reflection that helps us is grace. Does something different, of course. And what it does is this. It changes the language of my heart from I ought to, to I can. Now, when I look at that, I realize that in Ephesians, he's really saying to me, don't do those things anymore because they're not who you are. But what I'd like you to do are these things because this is who you are. And, oh, by the way, because this is who are. These are the things you can do. Go get a job. I could do that. He says, you know, don't be lazy. Now, if I work on not being as lazy, I'll get trapped if I. If I work on that dynamic. So I don't want to confuse people, but I do want to say, clearly, our theology has a profound impact on either. Our being in the bondage of shame are in the freedom of life in Christ without condemnation. Where does my theology give me freedom? You know, a prisoner is put in jail and they know they're in bondage because there's bars all around. Right. They can see it. I'm in bondage. But what about a Christian? Can a Christian be in bondage? Yes. How do I get there? Why do I stay there? Because my theology is teaching me what I ought to do to become godly. The dynamic we want to learn together is this. The Christian life is not about changing who I used to be into who I ought to be. The Christian life is about maturing into who I am. It's about maturing into who I am. Well, who am I? Yeah, I'm a saint. That. And this is the critical thing. Do you know that? Because I've been with a lot of people when they read Ephesians that you just read Voldemort, they look at that and they struggle with what they ought to do.

[Unnamed Male Participant]

Right?

[Bill]

Because they can't imagine what they can do. It doesn't hit their psyche that what he's teaching here is, okay, work really hard on avoiding those things and you can do these things. What he's saying is those things no longer define you. Why bother with them? What you really ought to be concentrating on, on who you really are. Concentrate on the reality of who I say you are, and you'll live into what you can do. I learned that I want to not be in bondage. I don't like Bondage. Well, how do I get out of it? I don't. I have to trust the one and the only one who has provided a solution to the bondage that I create.

[Voldemort]

I have a silly example.

[Bill]

Please.

[Unnamed Female Participant]

When I was in junior high, I knew that it was wrong to, as we just read, to swear and use profanity. And I had to correct that. So I remember going to my room and every time I would swear, I would go stand in front of my closet and smash my head against the closet.

[Bill]

Oh, I'd have a sore head.

[Unnamed Female Participant]

Well, I matured from that in high school to, oh, every time you, you, you sin, you, I, I use foul language. 10 push ups. That bondage of having to do something. Absolutely. And now I. Now it's different. Now it's a prayer. I'm sorry, Lord.

[Voldemort]

Thank you.

[Unnamed Female Participant]

You know my heart.

[Bill]

Yeah. Amen. Thank you.

[Unnamed Female Participant]

That's freedom for me.

[Bill]

That's freedom. That's very well said. Thank you. Gosh. How in the world, guys, do we help people get from shame to no condemnation? Well, one of the ways we do that is to say to them, which of these two hands does your theology define you? Does your theology define you as a sinner full of shame? Or is it define you as alive with a new life worth living? If this is your theology, then you're trapped, right? You're trapped and you'll never experience life. Yeah, but if this is your theology, if your theology is freeing you to believe who God says you are, then what happens is you read the scriptures, I call it this. You read the scriptures as an instruction book to help you grow up. That's what you do. It's like the purpose of Ephesians, chapter four is to help me mature. Listen carefully. Not into who I ought to be to help me mature into who I am.

[Unnamed Male Participant]

Yeah.

[Bill]

Help me grow up into who I am. That changes my whole perspective. Reading the scripture.

[Scott]

Yes. Reminds me of the. You're supposed to forgive and you're supposed to repent. And I would view those as, oh, these are commands by God that I need to keep in order to have God stay happy with me.

[Bill]

There you go.

[Scott]

Don't forget that last phrase, to stay happy with me.

[Bill]

Yes.

[Scott]

And then I learn, no, this is, this is a gift for you to keep your relationships healed.

[Bill]

There you go.

[Scott]

So when you air in a relationship, you, here's a gift. You can use this gift.

[Bill]

Amen.

[Scott]

And restore the relationship.

[Bill]

Amen.

[Scott]

This Ephesians verses is like, here's some more gifts that you can use.

[Bill]

Yeah. Excellent.

[Scott]

I like that whether you should or ought or do or don't, that doesn't define you.

[Bill]

No.

[Unnamed Female Participant]

They're all given to you already. They're just there for your taking.

[Scott]

Right.

[Unnamed Female Participant]

Everything, every spiritual blessing is yours already.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Female Participant]

Today.

[Bill]

Yeah. We're being careful here. And I love this. When I see myself because of my theology, still in my shame, I'm constantly trying to change. Right. Assuming that changing will mature me. But if I see myself as God says who I am, this is the scary part. He's already changed me. The Christian life is not about changing. The Christian life is about maturing.

[Unnamed Female Participant]

And Bill, can I just add real quick, just the definition that we talked about of shame is important for me to keep reminding. It's the definition of I have a sense that something's not right with me.

[Bill]

Exactly.

[Unnamed Female Participant]

I'm not quite enough. So a definition of shame. And what we're talking here about is there's nothing wrong with me anymore.

[Bill]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Female Participant]

Nothing's missing. I'm complete.

[Bill]

Exactly.

[Unnamed Female Participant]

So that's a. I need to keep reminded. So shame.

[Voldemort]

No, shame.

[Unnamed Female Participant]

It's like I'm whole.

[Bill]

I'm whole.

[Unnamed Female Participant]

Not just in the future state, but that's actually what I am in Christ.

[Bill]

Today.

[Unnamed Female Participant]

Today.

[Bill]

Today. And then I would add this. And don't be afraid of growing up. Don't be afraid of growing up. We're going to spend eternity maturing.

[Unnamed Male Participant]

Yeah.

[Bill]

You know, you guys are teaching grace and then I'm not supposed to do anything. No, no. We're teaching grace. Should it be a good idea? Grow up. Really good idea.

[Scott]

It's a question that I get asked all the time when I start talking about grace to a group of people.

[Bill]

Yeah.

[Scott]

And particularly from young people. And they'll raise their hand, they'll say, well, so what do we do exactly? The reason is, is all they've been working on is their shame.

[Unnamed Female Participant]

And maybe without a job now.

[Bill]

That's right.

[Scott]

All they've been doing is self centered work. They haven't ever lifted their eyes, which is what grace lets you do.

[Unnamed Female Participant]

Amen is the answer. Like what they should be doing is learning how to love better and different.

[Bill]

Exactly.

[Unnamed Female Participant]

You know, like what are your needs? I study your needs. I. I learn how to love you different ways.

[Bill]

I say to people who ask me that question as I say to them, you want something really hard to do. I mean, it's what you're asking. Something really, really hard to do. I'll give you three things that are really, really hard to do. Love your neighbor as yourself. You want something to really work on. Try that one. You want something to really work on. Love your enemy. I want to tell you that's so much harder than trying not to sin. It's just like, so. So what I'm saying by that is imagine that he has put in us the essentials of life that express themselves in love.

[Scott]

Another way to think about this is if I view the Bible as shoulds and oughts.

[Bill]

Yeah.

[Scott]

Then I am looking outside of myself to figure out who I'm supposed to become.

[Unnamed Male Participant]

And.

[Scott]

And that's completely different than if I trust that God has already changed me.

[Bill]

Amen.

[Scott]

And now I get to begin to walk in the light with who I am. It's interesting how godly principles get picked up by the world because you hear this. I was listening to podcasts the other day, and they were talking about how they had discovered that to be a one and only and a unique podcast that. The way they did that was they learned to become more fully themselves.

[Unnamed Female Participant]

And Scott, if I can just add in, just because we're in the business world, this idea of knowing your part and your giftedness and how it fits in with the team or the body.

[Scott]

Right.

[Unnamed Male Participant]

It.

[Unnamed Female Participant]

It's all. It's synonymous. I can now learn and feel comfortable with your gifts and know mine.

[Unnamed Male Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Female Participant]

And now we together, the US is powerful.

[Scott]

I have a friend, and we talk business all the time, and we talk about having really talented, strong people on our team. The thing that we then talk about is all of these really talented, strong people, they have a weakness. If you work on the weakness, you take the strength away. Yeah. So when you have really strong people, what you do is you. You release them to work in their strength and you protect their weakness.

[Voldemort]

Exactly.

[Bill]

Absolutely.

[Scott]

You help people understand. You help them not die from or get crucified because of the weakness.

[Unnamed Male Participant]

Yeah.

[Scott]

So we also talk about, you know, the shoulds and the odds and this theology that says I'm a. I'm a sinner and I need to work on my sin. And we. We've named that. I don't know if we've just named that or if it's a name that's in the. It's in this realm called sin management.

[Bill]

Right.

[Scott]

People believing that once you get saved, now you got to work on your sin. So I've got a couple things to read, please. That you've written.

[Bill]

That's right.

[Scott]

So any theology that puts the person who has trusted in Jesus as Savior into now becoming responsible for who they are and who they're becoming. As a Christian, this includes how they're dealing with their sin, how they're honoring the supposed ought to's and shoulds. Sins management says the believer is responsible to honor the Christian life, to always choose the Christian thing to do. Any theology that reads the New Testament as a litany of oughts and shoulds, instead of I can or because of who I am, if I'm not confident of the grace of God in my life, I will read the New Testament as a way of working my way to a life that's already mine. And any theology that puts more emphasis on moral behavior than on the significance of persons and relationships. And that so connects. That last piece so connects to. If I work on my sin, I'll love less.

[Bill]

Yeah.

[Scott]

And probably sin more.

[Bill]

Absolutely.

[Scott]

If I work on loving, I'll love more. But I'll send less.

[Bill]

Absolutely.

[Scott]

Which is an amazing contrast.

[Bill]

Thank you for reading that. Part of our motivation is to. In the future, soon future, we'll do a podcast or two on just this phenomenon called sin management. But we've been using the term, and Scott read that to just kind of help you understand what we understand about it. In Romans chapter three, around verse 20, to Romans chapter six, verse 11, all of that theology is what is known as declared theology. It's all something that is true about us. And then at Romans chapter 6 and verse 12, there's a therefore. It's the first therefore in almost four, three chapters. And the therefore is now. If this is all true about me, how do I then live? That's what that is. So I want to make this statement. What will keep me in my shame is a theology that does not get who God says I am. Right? And Paul does an amazing thing in chapter six with an obedience from the heart. You see, a theology that teaches me I am still a sinner, unfortunately teaches me that I still have a heart that is evil and full of sin. But do you understand that by God's grace, I have been given in Christ a new heart? A new heart that is without condemnation. I have been given a new heart that is the foundation of. For the choices I make as a saint. What keeps me in the bondage of my flesh, keeps me in the bondage of my shame is a theology that tells me that my heart is deceitfully wicked and I cannot trust it. Now, listen, everybody knows my answer to this. If I believe I cannot trust my heart, I am convinced I have no solution to my shame. But what if I have, by God's grace, a new heart? And now the guy who's talking would say to you that this was one of the huge transitions of my own Christian life. I didn't trust my heart for many, many years, realizing I shouldn't. And I was making horrific life choices. And I came to the place where I said, God, you've given me a new heart. And I could get emotional right now because of the joy I experienced and have experienced since. I trusted God that I could trust my heart and that men I love could trust me. Now it's interesting just giving you my testimony, when I saw my heart as deceitfully wicked, I would never let anyone trust me because I would never let anyone know how weird, screwed up, and bad I was. So I literally would say to people, because I want you so much, but I'm afraid of you. So I want. I want to go back to that. Our theology will keep us in the bondage of our shame when it convinces us our heart is still evil. Do you know what happens to a heart of shame? It functions on the basis of will and never, ever can resolve an issue. But when you have a heart that is transformed by God's grace, it functions on the basis of trust, and it therefore creates a resolution to everything we said. You know, from the very beginning of this series, I kept asking the question, can I trust Jesus is able to deal with my sin? Can I trust? Where would that come from? From a heart that he has redeemed and made new. Yeah.

[Unnamed Female Participant]

Jesus sacrificed too much to give us back our old heart.

[Bill]

Exactly.

[Unnamed Female Participant]

Why would he do that?

[Bill]

Yeah, why would he do that?

[Scott]

The Christian life is not a continuous improvement project.

[Bill]

Amen.

[Scott]

The Christian life begins in the declared truth that God says is true about us. And as we trust that, it leads us to freedom.

[Bill]

Let's go.

[Scott]

Thanks for joining. We'll see you next week. Thank you for listening to the podcast. We're really glad that you're here. We'd love to know that you're here. And so if you could leave a comment, we would appreciate that. But more importantly, if you know someone that should listen to this or hear it, we would love for you to share it with them. Thanks again.