← Living The Next Chapter: Candid Conversations with Authors and Writers for Readers Searching for a New Read
Living The Next Chapter: Candid Conversations with Authors and Writers for Readers Searching for a New Read
E715 - Babs Walters - Facing The Jaguar - Telling is Healing
00:42:57
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- [00:01]
A
Aside from having to keep that secret. And if any of them are keeping secrets, they know what I'm talking about. The people that I did tell were either unable or unwilling to help me. Some of them actually hurt me because I was vulnerable, and I was attracted to people who took advantage of vulnerable people. So having witnesses, people coming up to me and saying, I read the book. I have questions for you. How can I do this? How can I tell my story? How can I write a book? How can I get through this fog that I'm dealing with, to the sunshine? So being able to give meaning and purpose to what happened at the same time that I'm continuing my own healing is probably the biggest gift of the book.
- [00:57]
B
Welcome back to Living the Next Chapter. It's the Author Podcast. We get to meet amazing inspirational authors from around the world. And Babs is here with us today. I'm so excited to have her here. We're going to be talking about her journey as an author, her stories that she's here to tell us, and we're hopefully going to help a lot of people at the same time as well. So I'm excited to have Babs here. Babs, welcome to the podcast. Glad to have you on the show.
- [01:19]
A
Thank you, Dave. Thank you for making space for authors like me.
- [01:23]
B
It's amazing. Well, the show would not be anything without great authors like you, so I'm thrilled to have time with you. This is great, Babs. Tell everybody where you are in this great big world of ours.
- [01:34]
A
Well, right now I'm in Sunny Florida. It's 76 degrees. You can see. I mean, I see you've got a sweatshirt on, and I know where you are. But, yes, today is a lovely day. It's not too hot?
- [01:49]
B
Excellent. Nice. Well, it sounds like a great place. I've never been there to Florida. I've been to Arizona, which was hot in August, but I've never been to Florida, so that would be on my list for sure.
- [01:59]
A
Okay. Well, you can't beat the ocean down here.
- [02:02]
B
Yeah, I know, right? Oh, it's gotta be beautiful. I'm very jealous we don't have oceans where I am. We have nothing close to that. But that's good.
- [02:10]
A
I like that Arizona doesn't have oceans either. I don't.
- [02:13]
B
No, not very many. No. That's true. Very good. That's a good point. Let's talk about your journey as an author, Bobs, because we have authors who listen to this show, and they come for inspiration from somebody who's done something that they haven't done yet. They're just starting their journey as an author. And to have a few moments with you, to kind of learn from you and what you've experienced and what you've learned over the years could really help somebody who's thinking about writing their story. So what would be helpful, do you think, to share with someone, listening, to encourage them to share their message, share their story. In a world where there's books, every minute there's a new book, like it's just flooding. There's still the power of our story that only we can tell. Well, how would you encourage somebody today to share their story?
- [03:02]
A
Well, I think you make a great point, David, because there are a zillion books and more and more coming out. This has been a tough year for books because when the economy is not strong, people need to buy food and pay for rent rather than buy books. But I just noticed that of the people that I'm meeting since my book came out, everybody has a story to tell. And some people, like me, think their story should be a NETFLIX miniseries because there's so much drama in it. But there's a difference between having a story to tell and writing your story and then writing your story so that other people would want to read it. When I do the get to engage with other writers as well as readers. People are always curious about the process. You know, like, how did you get from having an idea to having your book for sale? And for me, I had made a promise to myself as a child, and when we get into my history a little bit, I can tell you more about that. And it took me a very long time to get to this place because I had a lot of work to do on the drama. I had taken a course in my 40s at NYU. It was a novel writing course, and we had to submit three chapters and an outline in order to be accepted into the program. And I was good enough to get into the program, but one day the professor came to me and he said, I think you need to go home. You don't belong here. So I was mortified. But he said, even War and Peace has some peace in it. Nobody's going to be able to read your book. It's just too painful. So I knew I had to get myself into therapy and start working on some of the problems. But I came a long way since then. And he was right in many ways. I was very angry. So when you're in pain and you're angry, people are reading that, it's not comfortable, it's not pleasant. It's not something people want to dig into. I've reached a point now in my maturity that I can actually tell my story with some grace and forgiveness for the other characters in the story, so that it's not just all about what happened to me. And when I became serious about this stage of turning it into a book, I had to learn how to write a book. Because just because you are an avid reader doesn't mean you know how to write a book. I took a course called write your memoir in six months. And as my life seems to unfold, I had to take the course twice because I only got a half a memoir the first time, which was fine because I got a different coach each time, and I had an opportunity to get a different perspective, but I had to learn a bunch of stuff that as a reader and as a person who experienced this story, that would never occur to me. So, for example, I didn't know the difference between an autobiography and a memoir. The autobiography is the story of a life. A memoir is a story within a life. My publisher said nobody's want to read a story of 80 years of an unknown person. So we got to find some kind of climax in in that story, build it up, and then give it some resolution. So that was just the structure part of learning to write the memoir. Then there were all these lessons about seeing and voice and turning points. So I really needed that year of coursework to get the book into the shape of a book.
- [07:15]
B
Okay, in your career and in your past, have you done any kind of writing outside of writing for your own story?
- [07:22]
A
Yes. Great question. I. Well, two things. I used to develop training, corporate training. So I would not only develop the training, but I would deliver it. So I did a lot of technical writing for that. And then when I left corporate America and I went into my own business, I wrote a business book. So I have taken 30 years of experience of why managers had so many problems with their employees, and I wrote a book called, you, employees did what? Yeah, well, it was. But I don't know how many managers liked it, because the truth is that the managers were the common denominator. And the reason that they were having problems with so many different people is because they were there in every relationship. So I had to break down what it takes to build an empowering relationship with somebody who's on your team. So it's a very different writing, right?
- [08:24]
B
Yeah. And that would be very different from memoir writing, for sure, because your audience is different. The tone in what you're talking about, in Your book is different for your memoir. So that's a very personal side. How do you start a process of writing a very personal story compared to how you would write a business book, for example? Is it two different paths?
- [08:47]
A
Well, I just want to point out one thing first for your listeners. There are memoirs now that provide both of those two pieces. Mine did not. It not only tells a backstory, a personal backstory, but it has a plan for. For takeaways and learnings and things that would be of value. So they do actually combine both of those things. For me, I was just bursting at the seams, David. I had to tell my story before I got much older, because my goal in writing was to take the other skill set that I have of being able to stand up and deliver and get out and speak in the world about keeping family secrets and how to find your voice and healing from generational trauma. So I had this motor inside me pushing me to get going. But there is a transition because it's interesting. Two things. One is truth. What is truth? There's that old example. If three people are on a corner watching a car accident, all three people are going to give you a different version of what happened. So my truth is my version of what happened. And because it's a family story, my family didn't necessarily agree with me. Mostly their disagreement came from not wanting the story to be told, still living in denial of some sort, or still holding that shame and guilt that this is between us. We don't tell people outside of the family. So first I had to look at my truth and try to be objective with it because I knew my family was not going to be happy. But the second part was to find something universal in my story so that people who didn't necessarily have the same experience would find something of value in the reading of it as well. And that's where I came to the generational trauma and the family secrets. Because it seems that all families have things that are either not discussed at the dinner table or not shared outside of the home. And we know that when you carry these secrets, especially over years, they create a burden and cause problems, not only physical health, but mental and spiritually healthy health also. So my goal is to encourage people to find their voice to tell their stories. And there are lots of different ways you can do that. I chose to do it by writing it right.
- [11:55]
B
And I see that on your website. It says telling is healing. That's the main part of your story and the idea behind the book. Who do you think, if you can Kind of help me establish who do you believe this book would be a great book for? Who do you have envisioned as your audience for this book?
- [12:17]
A
Well, that was something I had to do with my publisher before I was able to build the marketing plan of where the book would go. And it's clearly a book about empowerment. And in my corporate role, when I was conducting training or when I was an executive coach, most of the people that I empowered were women. So I know that a big portion of my audience is going to be female, but I'm hearing from a number of male readers. And obviously I think that what's most important is people who are open to seeing a traumatic experience that was turned into something meaningful and purposeful. So I think almost anybody could relate to that. But that's too general to your question. I know that people that are in 12 step programs are finding it very helpful. They're already on the road to recovery. They already have certain awarenesses. I think anybody who's curious, especially people who love children, there's a great deal of knowledge there from my own lived experience about protecting children and what it takes to protect children. So I would say anybody who's interested in empowerment, self help awareness, because we know without awareness, there's never any change. So a consciousness and people who want to help make a difference.
- [13:59]
B
Okay. All right. I'm curious around the title of the book and why a jaguar is mentioned as in the title, because I. You could. You could put almost any type of creature in the title, but why specifically a jaguar? In Facing the Jaguar, can you explain a little bit further about the title?
- [14:18]
A
Yeah, there's actually two parts to that, Dave. It's an interesting question, but there's two parts. One is my book was originally titled. My working title was Sorry Sis, this story has to be told because my sister had threatened to sue me. So we've subsequently worked that out. But I was coming from that perspective. You know, I kept quiet for long. I'm not keeping quiet anymore. But what I learned, and I did not know this without working with the writing coach, was that my creativity as a child came through my dreams. And I remember about four or five dreams that I had that recurred frequently. And one of them was the dream about the jaguar, although you could call that a nightmare. I had read a golden book as a child that I thought was no longer available because it was so discriminatory. I hated mentioning it, but somebody showed me that it's still for sale. It was called Little Black Samboan and it was about this little Indian boy who had beautiful clothing, colorful silks with all kinds of sequins and jewels on it. And he was walking through the jungle, and these tigers started to chase him, asking him for his clothing, or if they didn't get a piece of clothing, they were going to eat him alive. So one by one, he takes off one shoe, one hat, one jacket, one pair of pants, so he has nothing left. And then he starts running around the tree so that the tigers melt into butter and they turn. His father uses them on his pancakes for breakfast. Well, so that story obviously influenced me. And when my father would come into my room at night and sexually initiate me, I escaped into the jungle and this animal was chasing me. What I saw was a jaguar. And interesting, the metaphor of the melting this animal into butter and the father eating them on the pancakes. I mean, there's all kinds of stuff that's connected to my nightmare there. So my dream showed up at least four times in the memoir. That same dream and my Jack, my profession. My publisher said that is what we call a through thread in writing. It's a recurrent theme. And because of that, that is what your story should be called. Told Facing the Jaguar. Because my climax comes when I confront my father and ask him why he did those things that he did to me.
- [17:12]
B
Well, interesting. Okay, now, see, that's what. That's the Why I love this podcast, because we. When we see a book on a shelf or on a website, we see the title and we go, I don't really. I don't. In the first reading, I don't really understand the depth to why the book is titled that way. And I really firmly believe that books, the title of a book, the COVID of a book, they're super important. They really are. For a first connection point with a reader to go, is this book for me? What am I going to get out of this? But hearing you explain it that way, Babs, I think that's fantastic, because now we have a very clear picture. And you're right, having that dream come back to you numerous times, that is that through line. Yeah, that makes total sense.
- [18:01]
A
The little photo on the bottom is a real photo of my sister and I. I was seven and she was three. We were romping on a beach in New Jersey. But that was a time when life was innocent. And then in juxtaposition, you have the creature.
- [18:22]
B
Interesting. Okay, so for readers, then, is there somebody that should wait on reading this book? Like, you should maybe see some. You should go talk to some people and get some help? Before you start this, would it be triggering for some people to read this maybe, that are not really fully ready to address some of these things that might have happened to them in their past?
- [18:47]
A
Yeah. That is very, very smart and sensitive of you, David. There is a trigger warning at the beginning of the book, and you don't necessarily have to have that experience to be triggered by it. Our job as parents is to protect our children. And unfortunately for my parents, they were troubled kids who became pregnant before they were ready. And they had met in a reform school for juvenile delinquents. So they were already troubled kids. And, you know, that's just who they were. And their survival meant hurting other people. So I don't think you necessarily have to have my experience to be triggered by it. So what I always recommend to people is to respect yourself. Take a break. I wrote very short chapters. They're almost vignettes, my publisher calls them, so that you can take a break after each one. And the War and Peace part is gone. So, I mean, this is the calm version of this story.
- [20:00]
B
Interesting. Had you released the book as you had originally had written it, with the title you had chosen, do you think there would have been any regrets? Kind of the fact that that book would have been out in the format that it was, the way you had structured originally compared to what you have now?
- [20:17]
A
Because I'm looking at it now. I made the promise to write this book when I was 11. And I think I told you when we first met that I turned 80 in June when the book came out. So it took me a really, really long time. And that's what I would tell your readers. Honor their own process. But it would definitely be a different book because after I reach my climax and have this confrontation with my father and then another one with my mother separately, I did my own research into the stories and the things that my parents told us. I spoke to other relatives that were still alive. I went to the library, and I did research about the reform school that they were in and why they were sent away. And I discovered that if they were not my parents and I had met these two adults, I would have a lot of compassion and grace for them because they had really had their own traumas. Of course, because I was at the effect of being hurt by them. I don't know that I could feel as comfortable with them, but I have a whole different perspective.
- [21:39]
B
Okay. Yeah. That whole term that. That hurt people can hurt people. The one thing I think that we lose sight of sometimes is that even our parents were human beings, and they had their own journey in life and they've made their own mistakes and they've also been hurt. And a lot of that stuff carries forward. And I think as a parent, we're not perfect people either. Now, I'm talking more general terms here, but we're not perfect people and we make a lot of mistakes. Jesus is. This is an extreme example of that in your book. But I just think that we're all on a journey of trying to find our path. Some of us are actively trying to find a better path, some are not. Right. And I just think that's one thing that all of us just need to understand is that everyone's a human being in this story. And they're also hopefully trying to find a better version of themselves. And unfortunately, it's not the case. Sometimes some people are just like a jaguar, and that's who they are, and they don't change. And so I must want to keep that in mind too, that I think as at all the different points as we talk today, that there are people listening that are at different stages of this conversation from different perspectives. And I want them to understand to the impact of what happens within our homes. Our homes were meant to be a place of safety and trust, a place where we could be completely ourself and feel comforted and feel supported. When you look back at your story, Babs, and can you just explain to us what it means for you when you think about broken trust from a parent and child relationship perspective, the impact of broken trust, what does that mean for you?
- [23:35]
A
Well, you know, it's. It's interesting that you asked that question because I still have this little niggling thought in my head when somebody says or does something that are they for real? Can I trust this? You know, so I like to say that healing is a journey, not a destination. So I'm not standing here saying to the people who are listening that I'm completely healed, right? I still have after effects. But remember, I grew up in a household where we were beaten, we were abandoned, there were guns, we were threatened, there wasn't. That's why I said a NETFLIX miniseries. I mean, I, I have about every element of, of thriller in my life. But when you're a child going through that, you don't know that other people don't live that way. This is your home and you have to love these people because they're the ones who are responsible for protecting you. And if they do a poor job because they can't help themselves, you have a lot of learning to do when you get out of that house. And so I've made a number of mistakes myself, things that I thought I was doing to protect my children so that I wouldn't repeat what happened to me and I would break that chain. There's a lot of consciousness and awareness that needs to be developed. And if you are very hurt, you may not be open to trying new things or trusting new people because there's a lot of defensiveness that happens because you've been trained. You actually have cellular memory. You have to keep defending yourself. So, yes, I think that it doesn't end and that it gets better and it gets so that you can laugh at yourself when it happens and talk about it. And I think that that's one of the things that helped me in developing my website, because we have these two gifts that we give people on the website, and one is a checklist, how to tell when you're ready to tell. We don't owe our story to the world. We certainly don't owe it to everybody. There are people that need to hear it. And this last week, I did a talk in a group in a hotel, and one of the women came up to me afterwards, hugged me, but said, could you pretend you're laughing? Because I want to tell you something, but I don't want my friends here in the group to know. She had the same experience I did now, but she's still keeping the secret from the other people that she knows. But she thanked me because I gave her a gift of hearing that she's not alone, that this happens a lot more often than we expect. And one of the things that we know about child sexual abuse for a fact is that it goes under reported. So the statistics that we get about how frequently it's happening is not even close to how many kids are still being hurt.
- [27:10]
B
Interesting. Now, the powerful thing about podcasting, Babs, is people can listen to us and nobody knows what they're listening to. So we don't have to hide our conversation behind a laugh. Throw the you in this moment and just invite you to talk to that person specifically, that this book is going to help them. But if you could have time with them and they're safe to listen right now to whatever we want to say to them. What's your message to that person who you're thinking of right now? Who's going to read this book?
- [27:45]
A
Well, I know that there are lots of ways to heal and that you don't have to read the book to heal. You don't Even have to buy the book. You can go to a library and get it for free. So this is not about me selling books, although I would love if you did, or if you are going to choose to read it, if you would give me a review for it. But what's most important is that when I was 11 years old and my father first came to me and I didn't know what was happening, I loved to read. I would read anything I could get my hands on. And when there was nothing to read in the apartment, I started to read encyclopedias. And I found when I had gotten to volume I, that after the Incas of Peru and after Incense, there was a definition for the word incest. And in the years in the 40s and the 50s, we didn't have sex education like kids have in school today. We saw a black and white film of birds and bees pollinating flowers, and that was supposed to teach us what sex was all about. But when I got to the incest definition, and as a child, I believed that the people who wrote encyclopedias were brilliant, knowledgeable and experts, authorities on the subject, they told me that what was happening to me was that I was having sexual relations between two people too closely related by blood to marry. Notice that I. That definition really stuck with me. But in no way did it describe what was actually happening to me. It didn't talk about the fear. It didn't talk about my father keeping his guns beside him, telling me he would kill me if I told anybody our little secret. And it absolutely did not talk about the pain. And that was the day that I made a decision that I was all alone in the world. And I did not like that feeling. And someday I would write a book so another little girl wouldn't feel so all alone. Now, it took me a long time. I was damaged. I had a lot of work to do. But my purpose in writing this book is so that somebody who reads it, who needs to read it, will not feel so all alone. I know that I have some capability that not everybody has. I had an ability through my reading, to see all of these heroines and how no matter what challenges they had, whether they were blind, whether they were abandoned, they always. Whether they were Cinderella and they were treated poor, they always found a way to be happy at the end. And I held on to that one small piece that someday all I had to do was take one step forward each day, move it a little bit, not a lot. I didn't have big goals for myself, but someday I would be happy. And I Am. And that's what I want to share, that no matter how horrific the circumstances are, there is a way out, and you are not alone. And at the back of the book and on my website, I have resources, actual places that work with people who need help and who are struggling and don't know where to turn.
- [31:28]
B
For you as the author, Babs, what are you proud of? When you saw the book finished, ready for people to read, what made you proud? The fact that the story was out. The fact. Finish this and celebrate this. As far as a story that needed to be told, what was it for you that was so satisfying when the book was done?
- [31:49]
A
Well, I think the singular moment was my daughter. My daughter is so proud of me. I don't know. I can't even understand. I mean, she's just. She sees a strong person, a woman that she admires, that young women admire. She flew down to Florida for my book launch. She made a book club party for me at her own home where all the people that she worked with and her friends, she invited them all. She's been promoting the book. And I still have, someplace inside of me, some of this embarrassment because I really bared my soul. And to have somebody be so proud of you. The other person is my husband. This is number three. I got it right. I believe in marriage, and I certainly will give it a chance. He has not only been supportive because it's taken a tremendous amount of time, our time, time that would normally be retirement time, not only for the writing, but also the book tour and the marketing, and shares it with his friends from second and third grade. He's so proud of me. And I still have a small amount of shame and guilt that I'm carrying with me, because, after all, even though I'm a grown woman, the little girl still lives inside me someplace. And it amazes me to think that people could be proud of me when all I wanted growing up was that from my parents, that I never got it. So I'm finally getting that love and unconditional support. But the thing that I want to tell your listeners is that the hardest part for me growing up was not having a witness, aside from having to keep that secret. And if any of them are keeping secrets that they know what I'm talking about. The people that I did tell were either unable or unwilling to help me. Some of them actually hurt me because I was vulnerable, and I was attracted to people who took advantage of vulnerable people. So having witnesses, people coming up to me and saying, I read the book. I have questions for you, how can I do this? How can I tell my story? How can I write a book? How can I get through this fog that I'm dealing with to the sunshine? So being able to give meaning and purpose to what happened at the same time that I'm continuing in my own healing is probably the biggest gift of the book.
- [34:42]
B
Okay, Babs, for people who want to continue to follow your journey as an author, you talk about great resources on your website. I've been on your website. It's beautiful. Let's talk about some of the things again that we're going to be able to find, connecting with you through your website and those resources. I really think I want to highlight that again before we wrap up.
- [35:04]
A
Well, there's the checklist that I mentioned to you before, how to tell, if you're ready to tell. And there are three different phases. As I mentioned earlier, we don't owe our stories to anybody. And we should be careful with the people that we do share our stories with because there are people out there who will hurt us. So sometimes telling just means writing it on a piece of paper and tearing it up and flushing it down the toilet. And you know that that would be a good first step for you. Sometimes telling means getting help finding a resource such as the ones mentioned in the website or talking to a friend, sharing it with a trusted friend. And sometimes telling means I want to speak out. I want people to know I'm ready to take that big step in my healing. But I don't endorse any of those steps. It's up to each person to know what's right for them. One of the things that we do work on as a group for people who are interested. We do oral histories, we do how to start writing your memoir workshops, and we do journal writing workshops. So those are available. The best way to reach me is on my website. You can just subscribe to the website and I will keep you in touch of all the workshops that are happening out. I also am very lucky. I can travel. So if there's an event that's local, but it's not local to me, I do show up. And I think that what's the easiest thing for most people is I have an anonymous postcard on my website. It's an opportunity to share a secret, whatever the secret is, without having anybody know your name and giving you an opportunity to speak out so that others can see the secret but not know who the source was.
- [37:15]
B
That's a very intriguing offer for people to actually start the process of sharing the story and feeling safe to do so at the same time. That's a great idea. Excellent idea. Babs, for the readers that fall in love with you as an author, do you think you have more stories to share in the future? Babs, what do you think?
- [37:36]
A
Well, my husband would be mortified, but he said he would support me no matter what. Remember, I didn't know the difference between a memoir and an autobiography, so I wrote the story of 80 years. I have two more books just sitting there that need to be put into some kind of format. But right now, most of my writing is coming in articles. I've been fortunate to have an opportunity to submit articles in places where people will read them and then I post them. So anybody who's subscribing to my website will get a copy of them as well.
- [38:13]
B
And the one thing that I love too, and we were chatting, is you. You told me why we get to call you lovingly, Babs. I love Babs. It's a great name, by the way. But there's a reason behind the Babs. Can we share that as we leave today, Babs?
- [38:28]
A
Absolutely. I was born with the name of Barbara Walters and I married a Walters, so I had never changed my name. And throughout the Saturday night live shows of Gilda Radnor doing ba ba wah wah routines, I've spent my whole life being teased about who I interviewed last week. I also know that if you go on the Internet and look for Barbara Walters, you're going to have 15 pages of stuff about the other Barbara Walters, because she was there before me and you'd never find me. So that's why the Babs. And besides, it's giving me an opportunity to be my own person, not the one. The name that I was given. And that helps me find my voice.
- [39:19]
B
Babs, what a great. That's a great way to end off. And that other person. I've never heard of them before. Just so you know, I only know you, so this is great. And I appreciate the fact that you made time to do this with us today. Babs. Thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for the people in advance that you're going to help. Thank you for the people you've already helped. That picture in my mind of someone asking you to. To cover their moment with you with a laugh, to distract. But just the fact that you were there for that person, like, what a. What an amazing moment to just to sit and think about that for a second. That somebody could connect with you so deeply that they could have time with you. And you can give them a safe place to whisper in your ear that they're feeling and have experienced something similar. That's the powerful part of telling your story. Is there somebody out there that's going to resonate with you and what you're saying, what you're sharing? And they find hope. They find somebody to trust again. So that's what I'm getting from our conversation, Babs. Everyone listening. This is someone you can trust who will listen, who will. Who will be with you, who will share their heart through their writings and a great connection. So, Babs, thank you for all that you've done and continue to do. And there's many more people are going to be impacted by you and your book. So thank you for making time for us.
- [40:45]
A
Thank you, Dave. And just know that it's been my teaching that if you save one person, you save the planet. So good for you, because look at all the people we're saving together today.
- [40:58]
B
And to be able to have you on and share your message with the world is great. Babs, thank you so much for doing this.
- [41:03]
A
You're welcome.
- [41:04]
B
Excellent. Everyone, all information, as always, in the show notes, please. When you buy Babs book, I want you to leave a great review. I want people to understand why this book resonates with you. Again, some people haven't heard this conversation yet. Some people haven't had the honor of meeting Babs in person. So anything we can do to leave a great review when you purchase the book would be helpful to Babs to reach more people. When we help more people, we help save more lives and we give people hope. So please leave great reviews wherever you purchase your book in honor of what Babs has shared with us. Babs, again, thank you so much for being here. Hey, thank you so much again for pressing play. As you've heard, great guests on the show and one thing you didn't hear in this comment conversation is what? What did you not hear? Think about it for a second. That's right. Not a single solitary commercial for a mattress or a supplement or whatever you call it. No. Why? Because we don't want to break up the conversation with commercials. So the fact that you're still here means that you are a fan of the show, I'm assuming. So if you want to help to keep the podcast going and to make me feel really happy, all I really care about is coffee. Okay. I just got to be honest. I love coffee. I'm drinking one right now. Starting to get cold. I need. I need to warm it up. Helping us with our Buy me a coffee link over at livingthe next chapter.com and also in the show notes. Helps kind of keep the lights on around here. Remember, I'm doing this for free. I. I'm paying for everything. So I would love to have a little coffee donation. You know, know, even five bucks kind of fills up my cup. And I would love to enjoy a coffee from you. So if you're interested, again, thank you for listening, but you can use our Buy me a coffee link and fill up the cup. Thanks for being here.