Living Well With Multiple Sclerosis: Ask Jack—Fermented Foods

Podcast: Living Well with MS
Episode: S6E23 | Ask Jack – Fermented Foods
Date: November 13, 2024
Host: Geoff Allix
Guest: Jack McNulty (Chef)

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the fascinating world of fermented foods and their relevance to people living with MS, especially those following the Overcoming MS (OMS) dietary protocol. Chef Jack McNulty returns as the resident culinary expert to demystify fermentation for beginners and give practical advice, troubleshooting tips, and inspiring ideas. The conversation touches upon the science and artistry of fermentation, health benefits, fermentation at home, and integrating these foods into a plant-based lifestyle.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

What is Fermentation and Why is it Important?

• Jack describes fermentation as a “natural process of using bacterias and yeast to sort of break down sugars and starches... that helps preserve that food.”
  • It’s been practiced for centuries and does more than just preserve—it changes flavors, adds nutritional value, and can make plant-based diets more interesting. (03:47)
• Fermentation enhances savouriness (umami), changes textures, and introduces acidity, enhancing overall flavor and balance, especially in a primarily plant-based diet.

  "People always like, 'Oh, it's so boring to eat a plant-based diet,' ...but as you evolve... you start to realize there’s so many interesting things that you can do... using fermented foods is one way to do it.” (02:37–03:05)

Starting Out with Fermentation (04:16–08:08)

• Fermentation is both a science and an art—there’s a lot of room for creativity.
• Recommended starter projects:
  • Sauerkraut: Chopped cabbage, massage with salt, keep submerged, 1–2 weeks to ferment.
  • Kimchi: Same core process with added flavor elements, ready in 1–3 days.
  • Preserved lemons: Simple, great flavor booster for diverse cuisines.
• Basic equipment:
  • Glass or ceramic jars/crocks
  • Weight (to submerge veggies; Jack’s tip: use a water-filled Ziploc bag as a weight—10:13)
  • Optional: scale, thermometer
• Fermentation needs an anaerobic environment (no oxygen). Oxygen exposure causes mold; proper technique is crucial.
• Patience and curiosity are key: treat it like a fun science project.

Troubleshooting: When Fermentation Goes Wrong (08:08–11:33)

• Using bacteria intentionally means some risk; spoilage is easy to detect:

  “If it smells bad, really bad, you don’t consume it. You throw it away... It’s quite frankly going to smell of death.” (08:24–09:04)

• Mold on top? Discard the batch—everyone loses a batch from time to time.
• The absolute key: “keep everything submerged”—that minimizes risk.

Fermented Dairy Alternatives: Yogurt, Kefir, Kombucha (11:33–20:22)

• Plant-based Yogurt:

  • Use high-fat, unsweetened soy or thick oat milk for best results.
  • Add a plant-based starter; maintain incubation temps (38–40°C) for 6–12 hours.
  • Store-bought soya yogurt can be a starter, but dedicated starters are better.
  • Economically, it can be cheaper and easier to buy, but making it yourself is fun and educational.

• Kefir:

  • Traditionally dairy-based, but water kefir uses “kefir grains” (gelatinous beads of symbiotic yeast and bacteria) in sweetened water.
  • “They also have quite good health properties to it, you know, from a probiotic standpoint.” (16:55)

• Kombucha:

  • Made from sweetened tea fermented with a SCOBY (Symbiotic Culture Of Bacteria and Yeast).
  • Flavor is often boosted in a “second ferment” with fruit, ginger, or lemon.
  • Caution: Second ferment creates carbonation. Use strong bottles and “release the pressure at least every day.” (19:59)

• Sourdough (20:33–28:23):

  • Uses wild yeast and bacteria in a starter in place of commercial yeast.
  • Offers better flavor, texture, and shelf-life; may be easier to digest due to partial gluten breakdown.

    “There’s some benefit nutritionally because of the process of the fermentation. It sort of breaks down some of the gluten.” (22:49)

  • Starter creation: Equal weights of flour and water, daily feedings with discarding, ready in 5–7 days.
  • Hack: Mark jar levels with a dry-erase marker to see when your starter rises. (26:47)
  • “Fermentation is an art and a science. It's an opportunity to experiment and to explore different things that you can do with food." (41:27)

Pickling vs. Fermenting: What’s the Difference? (28:23–30:58)

• Fermentation (lacto-fermentation):
  • Submerge in salt brine; bacteria create lactic acid and probiotics.
• Pickling:
  • Preserved in vinegar; no probiotic benefit, but quick and flavorful.
• Fast pickles: Sliced onions with vinegar, salt, sometimes chili—ready in 30 minutes, great for salads. (30:37)

Salt & Health Considerations (30:58–33:32)

• Salt is essential for fermentation but use as little as needed (typically 1–2% by weight for brines).
• Overconsumption of salty ferments might be problematic for some, especially those watching sodium or on certain medications—consult a health professional.

  “For me, I think getting the salt right is the main thing... But you don’t need a huge amount to allow that fermentation process to occur.” (31:17–33:28)

Koji, Miso, and Soy Sauces (33:32–37:46)

• Koji:
  • A cultured mold applied to grains or soybeans—speeds up fermentation, gives unique flavors.
  • Used to make miso, amazake, and overnight-quick ferments of vegetables.
• Miso:
  • Koji with soybeans fermented—a powerful flavor booster and source of umami.
  • “Some really old miso... is going to be extremely dark and it’s going to have a flavor that tastes very meaty.” (35:45)

Apple Cider Vinegar and Other DIY Ferments (37:46–39:34)

• Easy at home: chopped apples + water + sugar; ferment covered 2–3 weeks, strain, ferment again 2–3 weeks for vinegar with “the mother.”
• Can experiment with other fruits (blackberry vinegar, etc.)

Best Ferments for Beginners (39:34–41:27)

• Sauerkraut: Simple, requires just cabbage and salt.
• Preserved lemons: Salt and lemons, leave uncovered for a week, then cover.
• Brined pickles (small cucumbers): Saltwater brine; ferment at room temp.
• Kombucha/Kefir: Simple once you have a SCOBY or “grains.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Fermentation is both an art and a technique. It’s like a canvas—an open canvas for an artist.” — Jack, 04:26
• “If mold starts to develop on the top, you just know, okay, that batch went wrong, and you throw it away... it’s quite frankly going to smell of death.” —Jack, 08:24
• “The water [in a Ziploc bag] acts as the weight and keeps everything submerged... It couldn’t be any easier... That was probably the biggest game changer for me.” — Jack, 10:13
• “It’s a fascinating world—fermentation and sourdough... it's just an incredible experience and taste sensation.” — Jack, 22:12
• “Pickling is different... It produces a sour, tangy aspect, but you don’t get the nutritional change and probiotic [benefits] as fermentation.” —Jack, 30:52
• “Fermentation is an art and a science. It’s an opportunity to experiment... and it’s fun, especially for kids—it’s like a science experiment at home.” — Jack, 41:27

Segment Timestamps

• Definitions & Culinary Role of Fermentation: 01:35–04:16
• Getting Started for Beginners: 04:16–08:08
• Troubleshooting Fermentation: 08:08–11:33
• Fermented Dairy Alternatives (Yogurt, Kefir): 11:33–16:49
• Kombucha & Flavored Ferments: 16:49–20:15
• Sourdough Bread Basics & Experiences: 20:33–28:23
• Pickling vs. Fermenting: 28:23–30:58
• Salt in Ferments & Health: 30:58–33:32
• Koji, Miso, Soy Sauce: 33:32–37:46
• Apple Cider Vinegar & Home Projects: 37:46–39:34
• Easiest Projects for Beginners & Closing Thoughts: 39:34–42:42

Useful Resources & Further Reading

• Jack McNulty’s Vegan Weekly Newsletter on fermentation (Substack)
• OMS website (for recipes and info on fermentation and MS wellness)

This episode is an in-depth, warm, and practical exploration of fermented foods. With real talk about the science, technique, and joy of fermenting at home, Jack makes fermentation accessible—and encourages listeners to experiment, taste, and benefit from these age-old culinary tricks for greater flavor and wellness.