Ask Jack: plant-based recipe substitutions | S7E23

Summary

Podcast Summary: Living Well with Multiple Sclerosis

Episode: Ask Jack: plant-based recipe substitutions | S7E23
Date: November 5, 2025
Host: Geoff Allix (C)
Guest: Jack McNulty (A) — Professional chef, recipe developer, and long-term Overcoming MS (OMS) follower

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Overview

This episode explores practical, health-promoting plant-based substitutions for common animal-based ingredients—specifically for people living with MS and following the Overcoming MS program. Returning guest Jack McNulty, a professional chef and OMS contributor, provides deep insights into ingredient functions, substitution strategies, and offers actionable, real-world advice for transitioning to a whole-food, plant-based OMS-compliant diet. The conversation covers plant-based alternatives to dairy, eggs, and meat, addresses common community questions (with helpful recipes), and emphasizes the importance of becoming a knowledgeable, empowered food shopper.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to Plant-Based Substitutions and Food Philosophy

[01:00–03:30]

• Jack’s Background: Jack highlights his experience as a professional chef and OMS advocate, working on the OMS Cookbook and Handbook.
• Diet Complexity: The OMS diet is a challenging but crucial pillar, influenced by social, financial, and cultural factors, plus aggressive marketing of processed foods.
• Approach Shift: It's not just about replacing an ingredient, but about understanding and replicating its function in a recipe.

  “We want to substitute the function of that ingredient...understand a little bit more about the ingredients and how they function within the food.” — Jack [03:51]

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2. Dairy Alternatives: Breaking Down the Functions and Best Swaps

[03:30–13:00]

• Dairy’s Roles: Dairy isn't monolithic—milk, cream, butter, cheese, and fermented products each have distinct culinary jobs.
  • Milk: Adds flavor, protein, sugar for browning. Substitute: Unsweetened soy milk (closest in protein/fat/carb structure), oat milk sometimes.
  • Cream: Adds fat and allows whipping. Plant-based creams (soy, oat) work, but be wary of processed cream substitutes with coconut oils.
  • Butter: Mainly fat for flavor/mouthfeel, especially in baking. Substitute: Mix unprocessed rapeseed (canola) oil with nut butter (e.g., cashew).
  • Cheese: Adds concentrated protein, fat, and mouth-coating feel. Many substitutions focus on flavor and texture, often incorporating nuts and umami-rich components.
• Butter-on-Toast Example:
  • For simple butter replacement, consider: olive oil, mashed avocado, or other spreads (e.g., Vegemite), rather than processed vegan butters.

  “What are you trying to replace on that piece of toast? ...Often you can just put some oil on...or mash up an avocado.”—Jack [09:42]

• Vegan Butter Cautions: Most are highly processed, may impact glucose metabolism and cardiovascular health; generally not recommended for OMS.

  “Most vegan butters are made with soya, coconut, cashew flavoring, salt, and emulsifiers...I don’t use any sort of vegan butter in anything I make.”—Jack [11:55]

Notable Quote

"Read those ingredients...the creams that can be whipped are going to often have coconut fat or added ingredients...those are not going to be generally acceptable in what we're trying to accomplish with OMS." — Jack [05:36]

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3. Plant-Based Egg Substitutes: Functions, Challenges, and Solutions

[13:58–21:21]

• Eggs' Complexity: Eggs serve multiple functions—binding, structure, richness, emulsification—no single substitute exists.
• OMS Guidance: Egg whites OK (mostly water and protein), yolks are not (contain saturated fat; best avoided).
• Egg White Swapping: Doubling whites for whole eggs works sometimes but can lead to dense results.
• Flax Eggs: Good binder but makes dense baked goods; better in non-baking applications.
• Flax Gel: For more advanced home cooks, boiling whole flax seeds yields a gel that better mimics eggs.

  “Around 3 tablespoons of flax gel will equal one egg...add a small amount of oil, perhaps soya milk—it functions quite well in terms of an overall egg substitute within baking.”—Jack [20:08]

• For Simple Coating (e.g., breading fish): Egg white alone is fine; it acts as a glue rather than for richness or structure.

Notable Quote

“Eggs is the most complicated ingredient because they're a multitasking powerhouse...there is no one substitution that you can make for an egg. It just doesn't exist.”—Jack [14:45]

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4. Meat Substitutes: Texture, Flavor, and Umami

[23:00–32:12]

• Meat’s Role: Focus on what you’re trying to replace—texture, chew, UMAMI, and not just flavor per se ("Meat doesn't have a lot of flavor.").
• Whole-Food Substitutes:
  • Umami: Use mushrooms, yeast extract, miso, soy sauce.
  • Texture: Tofu, tempeh, seitan, legumes (lentils, beans).

  “When you just get it out of your head that I don’t need the meat because I’ve got everything else here, plus a whole bunch more fiber and all kinds of good stuff…What else do I really want?" — Jack [24:32]

• Air Frying Tofu: Air fryers yield crisp, satisfying tofu texture—Jack recommends pre-boiling and drying tofu for best results.
• Meat Substitutes in Stores: Most are ultra-processed and not health-promoting—often worse than real meat; avoid those with long ingredient lists. Neutral options: tofu-based or simple mushroom-based products (e.g., plain Quorn mince, king oyster or portobello mushrooms).

Notable Quote

“Most of those meat replacements are not health-promoting. They're just simply not...some of them are probably in fact less health-promoting than eating actual meat.”—Jack [28:20]

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5. Community Q&A: Specific Substitution Scenarios

[32:52–41:32]

Coconut Milk Substitution

Q (Laura): How to replace coconut milk in Asian dishes?
A:

• Jack’s Recipe: 2 tbsp cashew butter + 2 tbsp chickpea flour + 500ml soya milk; blend and add at the end of cooking for creamy texture. For coconut flavor, try coconut water instead of soy milk or a little coconut essence.

  “If you really wanted the coconut element...replace part of that soy milk with coconut water.” — Jack [33:53]

Buttermilk Alternative

Q (Paula): Good alternative to buttermilk?
A:

• Use higher-fat plant milk (soy preferred). For 500ml, add 1 tsp vinegar (white wine or apple).

  “Higher the fat, the more it will resist curdling.” — Jack [35:11]

Avocado Oil

Q: Is avocado oil an OMS-friendly substitute, especially due to smoke point?
A:

• Extra virgin olive oil remains preferred; only use avocado oil if high quality and not blended with cheaper oils. Don’t heat any oil to smoking point—health risks rise then.

  “If you get any oil to the smoke point, you’ve already gone too far. It’s already broken down...” — Jack [36:39]

Cashew Cream & Cheese

Q (Paula): Concerns about fat content in cashew cream—okay or alternative?
A:

• Use in moderation; good for occasional richness, but high nut use can cause sluggishness. Make yourself for control, but avoid over-reliance.

  “You just feel it in your health, you become lethargic...not pleasant. Use it in moderation.”—Jack [39:23]

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6. Building Cooking Confidence & Avoiding Food Waste

[42:36–45:43]

• Start Simple: Focus first on basic, frequent substitutions (milk, cream, yogurt).
• Learn Ingredient Functions: Don’t start with desserts—most complicated. Learn what ingredients do in a recipe.
• Don’t Fear Cooking: The more you cook, the easier and more enjoyable substitutions become.

  “Start very, very simple. Nothing has to be complicated.” — Jack [43:15]

• Community & Inspiration: Look for recipes and guidance from others with lived OMS experience—ignore fad influencers and laboratory-made, highly processed foods.
• Final Encouragement: Cooking is empowering, joyful (for yourself and others), and essential for long-term health management.

Notable Quote

“Becoming a smart shopper is really important. That means reading ingredients and understanding…what you’re putting into your body…It's your responsibility.” — Jack [41:32]

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Memorable Quotes

• “Eggs is the most complicated ingredient because they're a multitasking powerhouse...there is no one substitution that you can make for an egg.” — Jack [14:45]
• “If you get any oil to the smoke point, you’ve already gone too far.” — Jack [36:39]
• “Most of those meat replacements are not health-promoting...some of them are probably in fact less health-promoting than eating actual meat.” — Jack [28:20]
• “I would encourage everybody to put a little bit more effort into it because it’s something we need to do constantly.” — Jack [42:01]

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Key Takeaways

• Substitute function, not just ingredient.
• Avoid ultra-processed “vegan” products—simple, whole-food solutions (soy, oat, nuts, seeds, mushrooms) are optimal.
• Read labels, stay informed—marketing is often misleading.
• Technique matters: Air fry tofu, experiment with mushrooms, try homemade nut creams in moderation.
• Start simply; build confidence: Don’t fear mistakes in the kitchen.

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Timestamps for Reference

• [01:00] Introduction to Jack, his background, and OMS diet
• [03:30] Dairy functions and plant-based substitutions
• [13:58] The complexity of egg substitution
• [23:00] Meat: flavor vs. function and plant-based replacements
• [32:52] Community Q&A: coconut milk, buttermilk, avocado oil, cashew cream
• [42:36] How to build confidence and skill in the kitchen

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Tone & Style

Conversational, practical, and encouraging—Jack blends technical knowledge with accessible, down-to-earth advice, empowering listeners to take control of their own food choices.

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For more resources, recipes, and community support, visit Overcoming MS.

Transcript

[A]

You know, it's just, it's becoming a smart shopper is really important. And that means reading ingredients and understanding, you know, what you're putting into your body. I mean, when you get right down to it, we're all on the hook ourselves and responsible for what we put into our mouth. That's the bottom line. It's your responsibility.

[B]

Welcome to Living well with Ms. This show comes to you from Overcoming ms, the world's leading multiple sclerosis healthy lifestyle charity which helps people live a full and healthy life. Through the Overcoming Ms. Program, we interview a range of experts and people with multiple sclerosis. Please remember, all opinions expressed are their own. Receive monthly tips and ideas about Living well with Ms. By signing up for our [e-mail] and now let's meet our guest.

[C]

Welcome to the latest edition of the Living World with Ms. Podcast. Returning on this edition is Jack McNulty who's a professional chef and omser and we're going to talk about substitutions today. But I would just like to highlight that this is the 12th episode with Jack. So do have a look in the in the podcast site because if you filter, you can find and Jack minority episodes and there are many, many topics all to do with diet cooking with Ms. So welcome back, Jack.

[A]

Thanks Jeff. Nice to be back. Good to see you. Looking forward to today's conversation.

[C]

So as you haven't been on for a little while, could you give us a quick intro about yourself and the diet pillar of the Overcoming MMS program?

[A]

Oh, just a small topic to give us.

[C]

Just a quickly there. Yeah.

[A]

Well, for those that don't know, I've been an OMS follower since 2009. I've been been the contributing editor to the OMS Cookbook. I wrote the Eat well chapter and the OMS Handbook, a fabulous book for those that don't have it, really chock full of information. I am a former professional chef and Now I focused 100% of my time on writing about vegan cooking and food. In terms of the diet pillar from oms, it's really one of the most complicated aspects of the whole OMS program. It's something that we need to confront at least three times daily. We balance our choices on food against many factors including social, cultural, financial, physical. So there's a lot of things coming into play. And an additional factor is that we just get massive inputs from marketing and influencers just all trying to convince us to buy whatever product and most don't have really our interest in health in their best interest is to make a profit, obviously. So there's a, there's a lot coming at us on a daily basis in terms of influencing the choices that we make. And I think it's really important to take an approach of control and controlling as many factors as possible. And that really means learning how to shop effectively and cook effectively. I know some people might be shivering at the thought of cooking and spending time doing that, but, but I think it's really, really important to get the most out of the program in this particular pillar. I think it gives you the best chance of having a positive influence in your future.

[C]

So one of the big ones that I think that people have trouble with is dairy. So they, I think people particularly find dairy difficult to give up. It is in many things. It's such a wide ranging, it all comes from milk, but ultimately ends up being butter, cream, all these different things. So one of the hardest things for people to give up. What are some of the good plant based substitutions for dairy?

[A]

Yeah, before we really get into that, I have a concept I've sort of developed over the years in terms of how I approach cooking. And I'm pretty much vegan 100% of the time. So with my background as a chef, I've been able to really spend a lot of time and focus on understanding how things play out, how recipes play out. And what I've sort of concluded is I think it's really, really important to change a mindset that a lot of people want to come into this world and they think that they have to substitute an ingredient. And I think it's much, much more important to look at it from a different perspective and say we want to substitute the function of that ingredient. And so in order to get to that point, we have to understand a little bit more about the ingredients and how they function within the food that we're trying to prepare. And so with dairy, and dairy of course is a, there's a huge category. So there's, there's milk, there's cream, butter, cheese, there's fermented dairy. And all of those have different aspects and play different roles in cooking. So for instance, milk contributes flavor, but it's also contributing proteins and sugars for browning aspects. It's rarely used as a lone ingredient. It's actually one of the simplest substitutions that we can make in terms of function. Cream is likewise basically just the same as milk. It's just a concentrated form of milk that concentrates the fats. Unlike milk, though, cream has the ability of being whipped, which can be challenging when you're thinking about trying to create a whipped cream from an OMS perspective, not using the cream, but creating something similar to that, butter is basically taking the cream and whipping it to the point of concentrating the fat droplets within the cream and eliminating most of the moisture. So it's sort of the opposite of cream, but it's mostly used in cooking for flavor, but also for the fat content, especially in baking. So you see oftentimes butter used in baking recipes. Cheese is a concentrated protein, concentrated proteins and fat from milk. And it basically is just adding flavor and fat, mostly greasy kind of fat. If you can imagine that sort of mouth coating fat that probably a lot of people got quite used to and like a great deal. Then there's the fermented aspects, there's yogurt, kefir, sour cream, buttermilk, those sorts of things which are in many instances just thickened milk proteins with the acid of a friendly lactic acid bacteria. So in terms of substituting, if we want to go back, milk again being one of the easiest. So it's a good place to start. You have just a plethora of milk plant based milk options anymore. And I think when you're looking at substituting from a functional perspective, it's really important to look at the structure of milk which closely aligns to soy milk. It's really fascinating that the proteins, the fat, the carbohydrates, those sorts of things in soya. Milk and milk are really very close together. So I personally favor soy milk in most substitutions, although occasionally I'll use oat milk as well. Cream is a little bit more challenging because you're talking about a fat content. And there are some decent plant based creams that are available that are perfectly acceptable within the criteria of the OMS diet, namely from oat or soya. And I think that they both work well. There are creams that can be whipped, but as a smart OMS shopper, be sure to read those ingredients because I think you'll find that the creams that can be whipped are going to oftentimes have things like coconut fat or added ingredients to help the structure of that cream to be able to hold up in a whipped environment. And oftentimes those are not going to be generally acceptable in what we're trying to accomplish with oms. Butter is an interesting area when we start getting into substituting butter. So butter is basically going to be about 80 to 82% fat and the rest of it is just going to be basically liquid or water. It's one of Those things that has a different use depending on how it's used in a recipe. So I can't say I have a specific butter replacement, but what I will tend to do is I will just look at it and say, can I just use oil if I want to use the fat? And do I need to have that much fat in the recipe? So that's a good starting point often to have. And then if you want to give it a little bit of structure, you can mix oil with some kind of protein or starch. Often I will mix it. If I'm using it in baking, I'll mix it with a nut butter to some degree, just a tablespoon of like cashew butter with. I use mostly unprocessed rapeseed oil and baking. And I just mix those two together and it performs very similar to actually using butter.

[C]

And what about just to simplify it, if people were to say if they just wanted a piece of toast with butter on it, then you know, not to not they're not baking with it, just toast with butter.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

What about vegan butter that you. That are available?

[A]

Okay. Before we get to vegan butter, because that's going to require a little bit more of a conversation.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

The way I would begin that, answering that question, if someone just says, look, I just want to replace the butter on my toast, I would say, what are you replacing? Are you replacing the fat? Are you replacing the taste of butter? Are you replacing mouth feel? What is it that you're trying to replace on that piece of toast? So oftentimes you can just put some oil on on a piece of toast and be satisfied with that. Or if you're looking for some kind of mouthfeel, you can mash up an avocado and put it on and be happy with that. If you're living in Australia, you could probably put a Vegemite on there as well, if you like a real salty hit to go along with that. Now, in terms of vegan butter, that's a little bit more complicated. So vegan butter was developed as an option for vegan food companies to avoid the use of trans fats. Many of the backing up a little bit, many original butter replacements were margarines or hydrogenated oils. And they had that problem with trans fats, which we all know are not healthy. So to get around that, there was an. There was a relatively new technology that did something very similar to hydrogenation. It's called interis sterification, which is basically rearranging some of the fats in a different way, but it achieves a similar effect as hydrogenation without having trans fats. And some people swear by it. If you go onto the Internet and you can look it up, there's a. There's a mix right now of opinion in terms of the healthiness of it. Is it good for you, is it, you know, neutral, or is it bad for you? I tend to look at it from the fact that it was developed, you know, really by food corporations that are trying to solve a particular problem. And generally they're not going to have the best interest of my health at hand when they're trying to sell me that. They're looking at shelf life, they're looking at function in a factory and trying to create a processed food. So I think that there are some issues with it. And the latest scientific studies that I know of have shown some concern about glucose metabolism. So if you have a problem with diabetes, this is definitely not going to be for you. And there's also signs that after eating a meal with vegan butter, there's high levels of fat in your blood profile, which is definitely not good for cardiovascular issues. And of course that leads right into the Ms. Play. So that's probably something that we would want to stay away from. Personally, I don't use any sort of vegan butter in anything I make. I think that there are ways around it. Most vegan butters are made with soya coconut, cashew flavoring, salt and emulsifiers. And I think that what I've discovered anyway is just using something like unprocessed rapeseed oil mixed with soy milk and a starch element, a sort of glue element, will give you almost identical results. And then we can talk a little bit about flax and flax gel, if you want to go in that direction a little bit.

[C]

So is that the starch element you're talking about? Yeah, that's the. Yeah, that's the. So is that something that's readily available?

[A]

Starches.

[C]

So in terms of like the flax gel you were saying, is that.

[A]

Yeah, well, almost all of the starches that are going to be out there are sort of polysaccharides. So it can be tapioca starch, corn starch, wheat starch. Geez. It can be the.

[C]

Yeah, so, yeah, all of these are.

[A]

Going to function sort of as a glue in the food. When you think about it, eggs kind of do the same thing, but they're doing it with proteins instead of starch. And so the general function is going to be different in, in that respect with flax so we all know that the flax egg has been very popular as an egg substitute, but it's not a cure all for all products that are requiring a substitute for egg. And we can get into it a little bit more when, when we discuss eggs.

[C]

So I think we're gonna.

[A]

Unless you wanna just dive in now, we could.

[C]

Well, we were gonna go on to egg yolks later, but yeah. So eggs are an interesting one because eggs, egg yolks are not recommended, but egg whites are okay. So I've often done this. I go with a two for one. I sort of think if it says one egg, then I basically remove the egg yolks and use two egg whites in the place of one whole egg. And most things that, that works for what you talk about. Functional stuff. So what is the function of eggs in recipes and is that okay to double up two whites per one whole egg? Or are there plant based substitutions that would be better or more effective?

[A]

I'll give you the, the easiest answer possible. It depends.

[C]

And you're a vegan as well, so.

[A]

Yeah, often the case in this particular tricky question with respect to eggs, it's. Eggs is the most complicated ingredient because they're a multitasking powerhouse in the culinary world, especially when it comes to baking. There is no one substitution that you can make for an egg. It just doesn't exist. An egg has so many different functions that oftentimes you're going to need to think about what is does the egg element in this recipe actually doing and then go from there and say, now how can I achieve that? So in order to get to that point, you have to kind of understand how the egg is made. The egg is the egg white. Let's start. There is 90% water, so that's easy enough, and 10% protein. But it's a special kind of protein which we can talk about. But that's basically the egg white. And that's why it's okay within the OMS diet, because it doesn't have any fat in it, it's just protein and water. That's it. Egg yolk is about 50% water. It's about 30% fat, most of which is saturated and 20% protein. So you've got different elements coming into play when you're talking about an egg yolk, when you talk about a whole egg in a recipe, it's about 17 grams of yolk and about 35, 36 grams of egg white. So if you kind of work that through in your head, you can kind of get a General idea as to, well, how am I going to substitute, how can I create my own egg using a, a substitution or how do I create substitutions for that function? So the egg white is of course protein rich and that's basically what it's going to do is just have that protein and it's just a dense, it's going to create a dense structure. So in your analogy of just doubling up on the egg white versus the egg yolk, it won't be the same for sure because the egg white is going to make things really dense. Whereas an egg yolk which has fats and proteins and emulsifiers will add richness and creaminess. So you'll have that gone, that element gone. Now if you want to try to recreate that, you can double up on the egg whites, but then also add a little bit more fat and possibly something else to give you a little bit more of a mouth feel in terms of cream, creaminess. So that's one way to approach it in terms of trying to substitute it. But in, in terms of just thinking, how am I gonna, how am I gonna do this? It's, it's very difficult to, to come up with a single element. Eggs are the challenge, and it's mostly a challenge in baking. That's where we're gonna have most of the issues. When you look at how the egg is, is functioning and baking, it's basically relying on the proteins to create the structure. The proteins will sort of unravel and they'll capture some of the moisture and some of the other ingredients and then solidify and create a structure. Think of a cake for instance, and it just creates that hold together structure. So if you try to substitute that, your options are mostly going to be starch based. And starch based rather than protein based is going to be completely different. So it will glue everything together rather than create a structure that's going to hold up on its own. And by gluing everything together, that includes keeping all of the moisture. So one of the big challenges is how not to make it really dense when you're trying to substitute an egg. And that's going to be one of the big problems in using things like starch based substitutes to replace an egg. The other problem is the heat control, because heat functions different with how a protein sort of unravels and then solidifies versus how a starch, the granules would just gradually expand holding what it can, but when it gets to a certain point it bursts and when it bursts, it collapses and everything else sort of collapses. And becomes really rather dense. And so there's the whole cooking element that needs to change as well when you're trying to substitute for an egg. So as you can see, it's not an easy. Can I substitute this for that sort of thing? Now, in terms of flax, flax is one of the closest substitutes that we can get in terms of eggs. So you can just take normal flax seeds, grind them up and then mix that with a moisture. Usually let's just start with water. So you can just mix it with water and that creates a gel. And that gel is full of starch based elements that act as a glue that hold things together. And it works quite well in most recipes. Where it won't really work all that well is in baking because again, it's holding all that moisture and then it becomes too moist or too dense. There's another way to get facts to perform even a better function in replacing eggs than just grinding up the flax seeds. And that's creating a flax gel. And this is a very old technique. I think it goes back to like the 80s maybe. And it's taking whole flax seeds, boiling them in water or simmering them in water for about 20 to 25 minutes with no lid. And that's basically going to encourage all of the polysaccharides on the surface of the flax to go into the water and creates this sort of gel in the water, in the liquid. And after about 20, 25 minutes or so, it becomes rather thick and you can then strain that liquid out and use that as a gel. And once it cools, it solidifies and it becomes, you know, if you can envision what hair gel looks like, it's sort of of that kind of consistency. And you can take that, I think it's around 3 tablespoons, around 35 grams or something, or 40 grams of flax gel will equal one egg. And so if you did that, and what I often then do is add a small amount of oil to that, mixing it up, perhaps even with a little bit of soya milk to give it a little bit more structure, it functions quite well in terms of an overall egg substitute within baking.

[C]

So, and just to say in simple terms, so when you were saying like doubling up on egg whites. So I was just thinking when I use it, and to be honest, the most common time I use it is as a way of coating fish. So a fillet of fish dipped in egg white.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And then dipped in panko breadcrumbs with flavorings and herbs and Spices and then baking the fish. And so all it's really doing is acting as a glue to chopstick breadcrumbs on it. It absolutely works fine for that sort of thing. But yeah, if. Then. Then if you think about it, we don't. I'm not really needing the flavor of element of the yolk. And is there a lot of. There's a lot of saturated fat and egg yolk. I know some people have the occasional egg on oms, and the risk would be that saturated fats are too high. So you. So if they were to limit it to one egg, very occasionally it might be within. Or are you thinking that it's best. Best avoid it entirely?

[A]

Well, from my viewpoint, it's best to.

[C]

Avoid it entirely and onto another thing. So probably one of the other big things is meat. So I think with meat, traditionally, meat was the sort of centerpiece for a meal. It provided a lot of the texture, the chewiness of, you know, even if it's not a separate piece of meat, something that's. That's, you know, mixed up in a stew or a. It would be that you'd feel the mouth feel of meat and also the savoriness of meat, particularly if it's. If it's been grilled or barbecued and caramelized. What sort of meat replacements to get that sort of mouthfeel are there and that sort of savory flavor?

[A]

Yeah, it's a good question. And I think you started the answer. Started to answer it exactly how I would approach it. And just saying, you know, what's the function here of the meat on the plate in the first place? What are we trying to substitute for. And flavor of meat is actually, when you really think about it, what is the flavor of meat? It's. You know, most people, when you ask that question, they go, huh? Because meat doesn't have a lot of flavor.

[C]

No, especially chicken. It really doesn't have hardly any, does it?

[A]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, what you're mostly tasting is how is it cooked? In other words, how are the proteins caramelized on the outside, how is it seasoned? That's what you're tasting. The texture, the mouth feel, all of those elements that you talked about, the savoriness of it, which is the umami aspect of meat. You know, that's. Those are the things that we're trying to replace. So when you break it down like that, it becomes something that's a little bit easier to get your arms around and say, yeah, I can get around. I can do that. You know, I Can replace the umami with mushrooms. I can replace it with yeast extract and miso or soya, like soya sauce or. Often what I do is a combination of those things. It gives you a really strong umami sense and you mix that with some sort of texture, whether that's tofu or tempeh or even seitan or, or protein rich legumes, you know, lentils, or even just other types of beans, you can really get very close to replacing all of those aspects. And when you just get it out of your head that I don't need the meat because I've got everything else here, plus a whole bunch more fiber and all kinds of good stuff. Well, I've got the flavor, I've got the taste, I've got the texture. What else do I really want? You know, it's not going to be the same. It's definitely not going to be, you know, a big porterhouse steak grilled that's on the center of your plate. But it could be something else that's going to be just as satisfying, you know, and you can, you can use this sort of strategy to make very effective ragu to make other sorts of interesting dishes. You know, you can go on and on. It's really limitless when you start thinking about it in these terms.

[C]

I found air fry, one of the best things about an air fryer was air frying tofu. It just, I mean, I don't know why, because it is. An air fryer is just a very small fan oven. Really. When you, when you break it down, it's nothing. You know, I know they're revolutionary. Everyone needs one now. But it isn't just a tiny fan oven, but actually it does tofu really well. Yeah. And that if you just get it just right, then you get that mouth feel and also absorbs flavor really well. So you.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

You can then have something I think in many ways superior to meat. I think that's what I have. I do it really easily in air fryer. I just find it really straightforward, which I haven't found so easy in a normal oven. I don't know why, because theoretically you.

[A]

Have to use pretty high temperatures, you know, and that's what, that's why an air fryer is good because it concentrates that high temperature in a small space. And so it's going to give you more heat. More heat, bang for the buck, if you will, kind of thing.

[C]

Right. But you're not actually setting it. But I actually set it lower than the oven temperature, I guess but it just. Because it's in a smaller space.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

And because it's not going to over oms level of temperature, is it?

[A]

Well, it's just the whole heat transfer thing, which I think we've talked extensively about in previous episodes. But you're right about tofu. I mean, it's one of those things that if you get it right and there's tricks that you can do with tofu and pressing it or freezing it beforehand or. One of the tricks I like is boiling tofu cubes and salted water for about five minutes and then letting it dry. It really seasons it inside and then cooking it. There's just so many different things that you can do with tofu and then you add the umami elements to it. It's just. It's almost mind boggling how delicious that can be. It may sound funny to newcomers, but, um, really it's one of those pleasant surprises that maybe you might want to discover later on.

[C]

Yeah. And people who say they don't like it, I think. Yeah, it's a very, very thing. You know, as you were saying, the different, you know, pressing it, you can go from a almost creamy level of, of almost liquid tofu right up to something that's very, very firm and scrambled tofu as a replacement. You took our eggs again? Yeah, That's a very straightforward replacement for scrambled eggs is scrambled tofu.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. You gotta use the right kind of tofu to get the right sort of consistency and just get the moisture levels and seasoning correct. But it can be done in such a way that it's really difficult. If done properly, it sometimes can be really difficult to determine this. Now, is that an egg or is that tofu kind of thing?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I think you asked a question towards the end of the discussion on meat about meat substitutes, which I don't, I don't want to forget about because it's one of those things that keeps coming up more and more as more and more food companies are coming up with more and more options for us to spend our money on. You know, when we go to the supermarket and it's really a broad category and I think the best way to answer that is most of those meat replacements are not health promoting. They're just simply not. I mean, look at the ingredients. I think they're pretty shocking in most cases. They're probably in fact less health promoting than eating actual meat. Not that I'm promoting that, that's just, that's a fact. However, there are some that are pretty decent. There are some that maybe are just strictly tofu based. That's all they are, is just tofu with some seasoning and they're just made in a way that's going to look like a sausage, for instance. These, I think are neutral and they function quite well as what I call like crossover foods, foods that you know are going to please a meat eater but also please someone that, that wants to stay away from meat or someone that's in a transition, for instance, is trying to, to cut out the meat from their diet and wants to have those same sort of satisfactions. And I think there are a lot of those that are out there. There's tofu based, there's certainly textured soya, which in small amounts, there's nothing wrong with eating those sorts of things. Certainly there's a lot happening with mushrooms these days and I think that that's probably one of the most exciting things that's going to be coming our way in the near future is a lot more mushroom based foods. And then there are some that use things like pea protein. So not a big fan, not a huge fan, but there are some that are adequate and I would just say neutral as long as they don't have a lot of ingredients in them. Some of them are not bad and they'll satisfy need in a particular case. But I wouldn't necessarily say, oh yeah, go ahead and eat those daily.

[C]

And so the. Because what I was thinking then when you took out mushrooms is. And I, I'm guessing there are other brands, but corn is the biggest brand in the uk. Certainly they do this. Yeah, mycoprotein.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

You have to be very careful because a lot of it they put in other ingredients. But some, the basic sort of corn mince is fairly straightforward. So that it does have a beef mince type texture.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So then that's. You think those sort of mushroom ones are probably, certainly on a neutral level.

[A]

Yeah. But I, I think that, I think that some of the things that are being discussed out there in terms of products that may be coming available soon are, are different than what corn has been in terms of the use of mushrooms and how mushrooms are being used. And it can be used in combination with other proteins to create a particular structure and the mushroom is there to create a particular umami flavor. But it's also being, I mean, you can experiment with these things even on your own. I mean, you can go and buy a king oyster mushroom, which is pretty meaty in itself and it's pretty easy to find these sorts of ideas on the Internet. Just the stem itself can be sliced in a particular way and then a little crisscross on each side to make it look just like a scallop, for instance. So then if you boil it in a particular broth, that's going to give you that sort of flavor that may be appropriate to what a scallop would taste like. You can make it look pretty damn close to a scallop, which I've done. And it's quite interesting to do that sort of thing. There's other ways. There's other kinds of mushrooms that can be grilled and served as sort of a mushroom steak, you know, and you think of some of those mushrooms that are out there like a portobello, just a huge brown mushroom that in and of itself is quite meaty. It used to be one of my favorite burger recipes for a vegan burger. Just take a portobello mushroom and grill it and you're done with. Why. Why mess around with anything else? That's pretty. Pretty close in itself. And so I think that there's a lot of promise out there when it comes to mushrooms.

[C]

Yeah. Because if you think about a burger, where does the flavor come from? It's from the sources.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

The actual burger is just providing a bit of mouthfeel, isn't it, really? It's.

[A]

Yeah. That's the difficult part in vegan burgers is just to get the texture correct. Yeah. And that's. That's a little playing around. But get all of the other elements is relatively easy, as you say. It's just really getting the taste elements in order and getting the flavor and that sort of thing. Getting the texture is really the trick in a vegan burger.

[C]

So we've also had some questions coming from the EI becoming Ms. Hub from the community. So I'd like to ask some of those. So firstly from Laura, how can we replace coconut milk in curries and dals and those Asian recipes? Because it has a particular flavor as well as a function.

[A]

That's true. That's an excellent question. It's a question that's often asked. My simple way of doing it is I just make a replacement for coconut milk or coconut cream. And the way I do it is I take two tablespoons of cashew butter, I take two tablespoons of chickpea flour and 500 milliliters of soya milk, and I just blend that all together and then I add it to whatever I'm making. Let's say I'm making a dal or something. I add it towards the end and there's an element that's gonna thicken because of the chickpea flour that's in it. And then there's that creaminess with the cashew butter and the soy milk mixed together. It's fabulous. It works great to give you that sort of creamy texture. What it's gonna miss is the coconut flavor. So if you really wanted the coconut element to it, you know, you can replace part of that soy milk with some coconut water, for instance. That may give you a little bit of that coconut flavor. Or you may ask the question, is the coconut flavor really important or is it really more of just the texture that I'm adding?

[C]

And what about coconut essence you get.

[A]

You know, I almost came out with that and I stopped myself because I mean, in essence is really. Yeah, you could use it, let's put it that way. You could just put a few drops in there. But I always feel that if when using an essence of any kind, it's going to taste different. It's not going to be that true coconut flavor. It's going to taste like it was made in a laboratory, which it was. And I don't know, personally I can do without that. I would rather just have the mouthfeel, the texture, you know, that creaminess, which can be easily achieved.

[C]

So another one to replace this comes from Paula as what's a good alternative to buttermilk, which we didn't touch on with the buttermilk.

[A]

Yeah, buttermilk is an ingredient that I do use at times. I should say buttermilk replacements I use in different recipes. And that's really straightforward. And so what you want to do is you want to take a relatively high fat plant based milk. I always choose soy milk for this, although you can use some of the barista versions if you're comfortable with those ingredients because they tend to be a little bit higher in fat. Just so soy milk is what I choose and I just. For every 500 milliliters, basically, what is that a pint or so of. Yeah, roughly something like that. Of like that.

[C]

It's just over 500 million.

[A]

Yeah, a liter is a quart. So we'll go from there. So a half a quart, let's put it that way. So I just, just use a teaspoon of vinegar. And so it's either white wine vinegar, apple vinegar, just to mix in there. And the reason why you want the high fat is because the higher the amount of fat, the more it will resist curdling. So if it has too little fat, let's say you used almond milk or rice milk or something like that. It will probably curdle on you, and that's never really pleasant.

[C]

And on oil. So in cooking, we're just supposed to use extra virgin olive oil. But there's a question specifically about avocado oil because it has a higher smoke point. Extra virgin olive oil.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Is it is acceptable to use avocados? Because avocados, we need to limit, not completely remove avocados. They're quite high saturated fat, but they are natural. But avocado oil, is that something that we can use?

[A]

Well, I think you get into a few different elements here, where if you were having that discussion with me, which you are at the moment, I would answer it in this particular way. First of all, is it necessary to have the oil? That would be the very first question I ask. In most cases, you'll find that oil is not even necessary. But if it is and you wanted to use the oil, then the question becomes, why the avocado oil? And with respect to the smoke point, if you get any oil to the smoke point, you've already gone too far. It's already broken down to the point where it's just not going to have a lot of healthy elements to it. With respect to most oils, they're going to start breaking down at around 120 degrees centigrade and going up. And so we're going to not sure what the smoke point is for avocado oil, probably around 200 degrees centigrade, something like that, which means you would be using it for a high heat sort of cooking, if that's why you're even asking that question. In which case I would be asking, are you trying to fry something? Because there's no reason to use that kind of oil in something else, Unless you're just trying to say, well, maybe it has health aspects. And then I would come back with the next question of are you sure? Because most avocado oil on the market is not 100% avocado. It has other oils mixed into it. So be sure to check out those ingredients. And we know that avocado oil breaks down rather quickly on the shelf. So there's that element to it as well. It's technically, I think it would be considered almost a seed oil. So it's one of those that should be treated a little bit like flaxseed oil or rapeseed oil, where you might want to refrigerate it, you know, and that sort of thing in and of itself. A good avocado oil used in OMS is, is perfectly fine. It's going to have a higher element of omega. You might want to be a little bit careful with that. But generally avocado oil, if it's real avocado oil and if it's prepared well, like all oils, you should be asking this question anyway, then generally it's okay. But, but try not to cook any fat to the point of getting it to smoke because you've gone too far. It won't be healthy. But not only that, it's just not going to taste good. You'll be burning elements of the food as well as burning elements of the oil. And so why even go there?

[C]

So another alternative this came from Paula for dairy is cashews and specifically cashew cream. Cashew creams can be quite high saturated fat. I mean, so is it just that you not to use too much or is there another alternative to a cashew cream? You also get cashew cheese as well. It's quite common.

[A]

Yeah. You know, I jumped on that bandwagon, you know, a few years ago and started let's see what it is to make all of these cheeses and whatnot. And that lasted a few months and then I realized, my goodness, I'm eating a lot of nuts. And it was just not pleasant. You know, you just feel it in your, in your health, you become lethargic, all of those sorts of things. You used to eat too much. It's never a good idea. Cashew cream I've never really come across, so I don't really know that much about that. I suppose. I guess if the question is with respect to is it more nut question or is it.

[C]

I'm not sure what the reasoning was to replace it. I mean, I think maybe it's that cashew, you do get it in the uk. I mean personally I would say oat cream is, is, is a similar thing, but cashew cream can be quite, quite thick. You can, you can make it yourself. It's essentially if you. So I have seen recipes with it and you soak cashews.

[A]

Exactly. It's just like. Okay, so just making like a cashew cream yourself by blending cashews then.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. So there's nothing really wrong but just don't use too much. Is that the problem?

[A]

Yeah, I mean I think that that's probably a pretty good way to look at it. I don't think you'd want to have it just constantly in your diet. But certainly making a vanilla infused cashew cream is quite good. I make it myself. It's delicious. In fact, I don't see any reason why you couldn't do that. But again, just like anything in the dessert world, you know, use it in moderation. You're not going to want to have that sort of diet constantly in life.

[C]

I think from that a lot of what you're saying is the things that are natural, cashews would be one of those that really, they may have, you know, to be careful with saturated fats, but we're probably okay with that. And a cashew cream which we've made ourselves from cashews which we've soaked overnight and then blended probably fine. But avoiding things which are basically made in a lab. So even if there was a vegan burger that comes out that's low saturated fat, if a scientist has made it in a lab, it's probably best to avoid.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, it kind of goes back to the beginning of our conversation today, Jeff. You know, it's just, it's. Becoming a smart shopper is really important. And that means reading ingredients and understanding, you know, what you're putting into your body. I mean, when you get right down to it, we're all on the hook ourselves and responsible for what we put into our mouth. That's the bottom line. It's your responsibility. They're all your choices. But if you want to maintain as healthy, health promoting diet as possible, then look at ingredients and furthermore, have much more control. Don't go out to eat as much, learn how to cook. It's really, it's a fascinating world. And I think that there are so many things that you can make that are just that bring so much joy, not only to yourself, but whoever happens to be sharing that food with you. It's just, it's a marvelous way to live. And I think that I would encourage everybody to put a little bit more effort into it because it's something we need to do constantly.

[C]

So just this, this brings me on to a final question. So I'm not. You're a chef. I'm a cook. There's a definite distinction. You talked about things like creating flax gels.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

And I thought, yeah, that's probably not happening in my kitchen. So what are your tips for your top tips for developing confidence in the kitchen and making those sort of recipe tweaks without risking a lot of wasted time, effort and money on your food?

[A]

Wow, that's a tough question. You know, there's a lot of ways to go about approaching the aspect of, okay, how do I. Let's assume you're just getting started in this world because most people that have been on the OMS diet for, let's say five years or more are going to be pretty comfortable what they're doing with their food. But if you're just starting out and you don't have really an idea, but you have an interest and you're going to go around, I think it's really important to do a lot of the work yourself in terms of understanding what the ingredients are and how they function actually in a recipe. And then when you start looking at things in terms of cooking, just start very, very simple. Nothing has to be complicated. I think the most complicated things to make are probably going to be desserts, you know, and those are probably the least things that we really need on a daily basis. So start with desserts last or put them last, you know, and kind of get comfortable with some of the basic items of how to get through the day and understand what are the, what are the, the simplest ways I can have these sorts of things. And that's generally going to be, those are going to be easy substitutions to make, you know, plant based milk for normal milk, plant based creams for, for normal cream, you know, using soya yogurt instead of, or some kind of plant based yogurt instead of cow's milk yogurt. Understanding how other fermented products in the dairy world work. Staying away from vegan butter and just getting to know a little bit about oil and the fact that you don't need as much fat in your food as you think, or as most recipes call for, you know, you can reduce that greatly. There's just so much to get started with. And then after you get a little bit more comfortable, then, you know, you start following geeks like myself that are going to give you tips on how to make like a vegan flan, for instance, which is lovely. I know most people aren't going to do that, but if you wanted to go in that direction, then, you know, you look for people like me. I know Karen Lee with OMS is also wonderful in what she does with food and to just look at people that are living the same kind of lifestyle and what we're doing out there, that's, I think, a better place to go than thinking about what the latest Instagram influencer is talking about in terms of coconut and singing those praises.

[C]

Okay with that, I'd like to thank you very much for joining us, Jack, Whit and Aunty.

[A]

It's my pleasure, Jeff. Really appreciate the time and can't encourage it enough. Go out and cook something good.

[C]

Excellent. Thank you very much.

[B]

Thank you for listening to this episode of Living well with Ms. Please check out this episode's show [e-mail] podcast. You'll find useful links and bonus information there. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode and please rate and review the show to help others find us. This show is made possible by the Overcoming Ms. Community. Our theme music is by Claire and Mab Dean. Our host is Jeff Alex. Our videos are edited by Lorna Greenwood and I'm the producer, Regina Beach. Have questions or ideas to share? Email us at Paul Podcast at overcomingms. Org. We'd love to hear from you. The Living well with Ms. Podcast is for private, non commercial use and exists to educate and inspire our community of listeners. We do not offer medical advice. For medical advice, please contact your doctor or other licensed healthcare professional.