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Living Well with Multiple Sclerosis
Bonus from the archives: Top tips for Overcoming MS-friendly holiday meals with Ashley Madden | S7 bonus
00:32:28
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- [00:00]
A
How many dinner parties or, you know, just like cocktail parties have I been at where all I end up talking about is food because someone will be eating something that I made and brought and we strike up a conversation and I'm like, yeah, you know, there's no dairy in that, or, you know, there's no oil in that, or it's made from, you know, beans. My favorite food group to kind of do magical things with is beans.
- [00:27]
B
Welcome to Living well with Ms. This show comes to you from Overcoming ms, the world's leading multiple sclerosis healthy lifestyle charity which helps people live a full and healthy life. Through the Overcoming Ms. Program, we interview a range of experts and people with multiple sclerosis. Please remember, all opinions expressed are their own. Don't forget to subscribe to Living well with Ms. On your favorite podcast platform so you never miss an episode. And now let's meet our guest. Today's episode is a replay from the Living well with Ms. Archives. We're revisiting some of our favorite episodes from season one. These early episodes break down the Overcoming Ms. Program and feature doctors, facilitators and community members with top tips and personal stories about living well with Ms. You can listen to the entire back catalog at overcomingms.org podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts. Today's episode features pharmacist, chef, plant based cookbook author and follower of the Overcoming Ms. Program, Ashley Madden, discussing the diet pillar of the program.
- [01:43]
C
Can you tell us a little bit about your background and your passion for cooking?
- [01:46]
A
It's an interesting path, I think, for me both personally and professionally. I've always been, quote, unquote, foodie. I've always been in love with food and eating out and cooking at home. So, you know, in my early 20s, in my late teens, I played around with this idea of going to culinary school very briefly and then quickly decided that that, you know, wasn't something that maybe I should do. So anyways, I ended up going to pharmacy school instead to Memorial University in Newfoundland. That's in Canada. And so I practiced as a pharmacist for. For a little while. And in my early career, that's actually when I was diagnosed with Ms. So that was around 20. No, 2008, I think. Yeah, 2008. I was 23 or 24. There was a time when I could never forget being diagnosed, but now it's kind of a blur. Like many people who get diagnosed, you know, I didn't really know what to do, so I kind of just took medication and tried to talk about it. As little as possible. And then curiosity began to creep in. And that's when I started googling and going outside of the western medicine box that I kind of lived in. So that's when I found OMS, and that was around 2011. I read the OMS book, I think in two days or maybe even a day overnight. I know people do the transition to the Overcoming Multiple Sclerosis program in different ways. Slowly or like cold turkey. I'm a cold turkey kind of person. So overnight I completely shifted everything and have been committed to the OMS program ever since. And then as those changes happened in my personal life, you know, it kind of started trickling into my professional life. And then I wanted to know more about, like, food and nutrition and how, you know, the chronic diseases of the world could be related to how we take care of ourselves. And so, so then I became a certified holistic nutrition consultant. And after I did that, I knew for sure that my passion did lie in food. And so I moved to New York and went to culinary school. And, you know, the rest is history. Now.
- [04:06]
I do recipe development for a while. I did corporate talks on a whole foods plant based diet. I've done cooking classes and demos. I'm a food photographer. And like you said, I am working on my first plant based cookbook. And in between all of those transitions.
- [04:26]
I went to culinary school in New York and then I moved to the Netherlands with my husband. He took a job there for a few years and then we moved back to Canada and just recently we moved to Taiwan.
- [04:38]
C
And is it quite a challenge to switch to an OMS diet?
- [04:42]
A
A lot of the big changes people make in their lives are preceded by some kind of event. You know, it's really. I think it's really difficult to muster up a lot of motivation sometimes, unless you are frightened in some way or you learn some kind of lesson. And for me, I should give you some more background about me, actually. So after I was diagnosed with ms, my sister was also diagnosed with Ms. And I had an aunt with Ms. She's passed away now. So, like, you know, a lot of people, I listen to some of the other podcasts that you've done. And a lot of people when they get diagnosed with ms, you know, they don't know much about Ms. They're unfamiliar and, you know, they have to go through this whole learning process. For me, when I was diagnosed, I knew a lot about Ms. I was fresh out of pharmacy school. I was doing a pharmacy rotation because I did a hospital residency program for a year. After I graduated pharmacy and I was currently working in the icu and, and one of my patients in the ICU had Ms. So I was very aware, I guess, of all the worst case scenarios. So I was terrified. I went into a period of depression, a period of denial. And then when I finally realized that, you know, there's got to be something that I can do to decrease the risk of relapses or decrease other chronic diseases that might happen. So when I found oms, it was just pure relief and I was so motivated. So for me, it wasn't difficult to make the changes. I was at a period of time in my life where I feel like I could have or would have done anything. But I do completely understand how it can be daunting and it can seem very difficult for people who find out about the OMS program and then they learn about the different pillars of the program. And I can definitely understand and have compassion, empathy for somebody who might feel overwhelmed, I guess, by making big changes. But I've also worked with people, coached them kind of through this process, both officially and unofficially, of going, I guess, making the lifestyle and diet changes for oms. And I think that once you get started, it's a lot easier than you think in the beginning.
- [07:01]
C
Yeah. And I was like you. I went cold turkey just as soon as I read the book. And then I did everything straight away. But equally, I meet some people because I don't think everyone is prepared. They've had a shocking diagnosis. And it's different people's mindsets, I think. I mean, for me, it was like, I must do everything I can. And then other people like, well, to have that traumatic event and then they've got to make life change might be too much.
- [07:29]
A
Yeah, no, I agree with your, with that approach. I think starting off with things that seem a little easier at first is definitely good. For me. The first thing that I took out immediately, which I know is the last for some people, was dairy. Dairy of all kinds was the first thing that I took out just from reading all kinds of stuff, not just from oms, but from other outlets that I found during that time. I was like, okay, dairy is the first to go for sure.
- [07:57]
C
Yeah, I think. Yeah. Dairy and saturated fats, to me are the big no nos. Specifically this episode. We wanted to talk about the holiday season because this time of year there are lots of holidays coming up in the northern hemisphere. Obviously it's the middle of winter, so there's mid winter festivals, there's Christmas, there's Hanukkah. There's Thanksgiving in the United States. So all of these different celebratory meals, Southern hemisphere, a little bit different because it's the middle of summer. So a lot of these celebrations involve big meals. And typically these big meals are very meat heavy. They're really the worst of sort of meals for us. But we want to be part of the celebration. So in this episode, we really wanted to talk a bit about some of the tips, how we could make a holiday meal oms compliant, but still be a delicious meal.
- [09:01]
A
Yeah. And I do think that, again, just to give you some background. So when I first transitioned to the illness Diet, it was December 1, 2011. I won't forget because I remember talking to my husband, like, how am I going to do this? Christmas is coming up. New Year's.
- [09:24]
And the holidays are just kind of synonymous with overindulgence and rich food and sharing food with family and friends. So there was definitely a lot of anxiety around that. My approach has definitely changed over the last ten years or so. In the beginning, that first Christmas, I remember going to my husband's aunt's house for dinner. I think it was in Canada, we have Boxing Day, so that's the day after Christmas Day. And so, you know, it was the same thing. Big turkey dinner, and I actually got a plate of everything like I normally would have. And.
- [10:06]
When there's a lot of people around at, like, you know, these holiday dinners, you're sitting all over the place. So nobody was really, like, kind of like watching what you're eating. And I just like, switched plates with my husband when he finished his, because I just. I wasn't ready to talk about it. I wasn't ready to explain my choices because I was still figuring them out. So I think that, you know, I'm sure your listeners run the spectrum from people who are thinking about.
- [10:31]
Changing to an OMAS diet to people who are totally seasoned, really comfortable on the diet. For me, the first thing, and I know that this has to kind of coincide with your approach to Ms. In general, but for me, being honest with people and just telling them, this is how I eat, this is why without being apologetic, was really helpful. That came after a couple of years. But, you know, just explaining to someone if they invited me over for dinner, like, I have certain, you know, dietary restrictions, preferences, and then sometimes that would go into a longer conversation about what particular reason. But more often than not, that made things so much easier. And sometimes that would end up with the host asking, you know, okay, well, what can I make? And I'd make suggestions or I'd bring a dish of my own. You know, that that kind of thing was really helpful for me in the beginning. The second thing, and this is something that I still do all time for, any kind of celebration or important time of the year is, you know, being prepared. So I will start preparing meals around the holidays, you know, a week or two ahead of time, and I'll freeze certain things, whether it be, you know, cookies or cake or you know, for the oms friendly meal. Like for me it's Christmas, we celebrate Christmas. So I find with a lot of these holiday meals, it's about a special meal. So something that's special on your plate. And it's usually a combination of things, right? So for us, we do like vegetables and gravy or brown sauce, I think that's what you might call it. So for me it would be being prepared so that I have many components of the meal already made. And so then you just need to reheat them come the particular holiday dinner and I'll get into more specifics about which particular things I make. That's a big thing for me is being prepared, making things ahead of time. The other thing is that sometimes it's easier to keep things simple. Like I'm not sure what you do for special meals, but sometimes just taking it easy and taking the pressure off of yourself over the holidays is a great option as well.
- [12:46]
A few Christmases ago, or actually it was New Year's, a few New Year's days ago, I had 20 people at my house for New Year's Day dinner. And you're right because my sister also has oms and eats very similar to me and that's kind of trickled into the rest of my family. So my mom eats very similar to me, so does my sister in law, my brother in law and my husband eats exactly the same way I do. So I did two separate meals completely. I did a like a turkey traditional holiday dinner and then I did a, you know, a vegan or a plant based version of that. And that was so much work, I don't think I'd ever do that again. So that's what I'm thinking of when I think about keeping it simple. You know, sometimes it's just easier to just shift how you think about a holiday meal. It's important also to bring stuff with you. This is probably something that you might do as well. But if I'm going out somewhere, if I'm going to like a holiday party or if I am invited to an event and I don't know what the, the menu is going to be or I have no way of finding out. I'll usually bring food with me like in my purse or in a bag or something like that, so that I find that helpful as well.
- [13:58]
C
Yeah, I think if it's an organized event, we have a work Christmas meal coming up because it's at a restaurant. Then if you ring ahead, even though they're very set up for their holiday season meals, they almost always have alternatives. And yeah, they, they came back to me, they said, well, this is our standard vegan, but. And I sent them the, a link to the OMS diet webpage.
- [14:26]
A
Oh, I've never done that before. That's great.
- [14:28]
C
Or they just needed to make small adaptions. Then they just said, oh, that's fine. We just, we'll just make some slight changes because some of the things were fried. And they said that's. And they sent me through an alternative vegan menu and it's yeah, perfect. So I think any, any like a good restaurant will, will tend to be fine. I think if you wring your head. And the other thing I would say is, so we have a tradition in the UK of a Sunday dinner. So you. And for that typically I would just not have the meat. So I have like roast vegetables and don't have that sort of centerpiece bit of the meat. For holiday season meal, you still want a bit of a showpiece, don't you? Still want.
- [15:12]
A
Exactly. So that's. And that's the part where I'm talking about when being like kind of prepared so very similar to you. So in Newfoundland we also have Sunday dinner, it's also called jigs dinner, which is where, you know, you just kind of make a bunch of vegetables, you have a gravy and you have a centerpiece meat. So that's usually turkey or chicken. So what I've done is I also make a centerpiece. So for a few years I would make like bean and nut loaves and we, we kind of exhausted that option. It was the thing that we went to then for like every holiday meal. So we kind of got tired of that. And so then I got a little more creative as the years went by. And so now I do different things. Some of the things that I do are like a marinated tempeh and then I'll bake it in the oven or I'll grill it. I also like to do filling pie. So it's like a, like a deep dish potato kale pie. It's pretty easy to put Together and then with gravy on. It still kind of has a very similar look to everybody else's plate. So I think that's important as well. Yeah. And I think we have something. I don't know if you had this in the uk. Do you guys have like salt beef with your Sunday dinner?
- [16:21]
C
No, I'm aware of it.
- [16:22]
A
It's not a nice thing when you explain it. It's just a salted piece of beef that you put in with the vegetables when you're boiling them for Sunday dinner. And we do this for holiday meals as well. So for me, it just came down to me asking my mom or my mother in law or, you know, can you just not do that? You know, can you just like. And sometimes they would cook vegetables separately for me and whoever else wanted to eat that way. And then eventually everybody just kind of stopped cooking with salt beef. I don't know if everybody was happy about that, but people will make adjustments for you. You know, if you ask, you'll be surprised how willing people are to help.
- [16:59]
C
And so that centerpiece thing you said you sort of went from a nut and bean roast. Where would people look for other ideas? Is it Rice shinecook Ca?
- [17:11]
A
It is, yes.
- [17:12]
C
And is there any other resources?
- [17:14]
A
Yes. Oh my God. Yeah. There's so many.
- [17:18]
Obviously, like Pinterest and online plant based blogs are super helpful. There's lots of things there. All you have to do is put in a bean and nut loaf or just a lentil loaf or something like that. That's super easy to make. You essentially just combine like beans or lentils, whatever legume you're using, flavoring some flour and then a bunch of seasonings and a binder of some sort. Sometimes you use like flax seeds and you combine it all and then you pack it into a loaf pan and bake it. It's very easy. It freezes. Fantastic. So I used to make those in bulk. So making things in bulk is, you know, really helpful when it comes to making recipes that are a bit more involved or a bit more special. So that's like one example I also have. In the beginning, a lot of different cookbooks were kind of my go to. So I'm not sure if you're familiar with forks over knives.
- [18:14]
C
Yes, yes.
- [18:15]
A
Okay. Yeah. So originally the Forks Over Knives Cookbook has, you know, really. The original cookbook has, you know, really simple recipes. And that's kind of where I learned a lot about like oil free cooking and, you know, using more whole foods to cook. Because for me, making OMs you know, friendly meals Delicious is all about just using whole foods in new ways, you know, in just in different ways. So using, you know, like we're talking about using beans and nuts to make a savory loaf, those kinds of things. Forks over knives was helpful for me with that. And there are other cookbooks that are really popular, like the Oshi Glows Cookbook that's really popular in Canada and United States. I know that for sure. And then also, you know, the forum, the OMS forum is fantastic. The first couple years I was on the OMS program, I was regularly posting in the forum looking for advice for restaurants to eat at if I was visiting a certain city. And I knew there were people there who might know some recommendations or for recipes or anything. I found that to be extremely helpful in the beginning, especially with diet. When the first couple years that I was on the OMS program, I was going to New York. This was before I went there for culinary school. I was going there on vacation and I just posted on the forum there, you know, does anybody know of any OMS friendly restaurants that I could eat at? And then this woman wrote me back, like the most amazing, inclusive, specific set of recommendations ever. And then we started talking so frequently that we just exchanged email addresses. And then we became really close friends. And then she lived in la. I live in the east coast of Canada. We ended up meeting in LA two or three times, I think. And I'm actually having dinner with her in a couple weeks in New York. I have to go to New York for a reason anyways, so it's just interesting what the forum can do for you. So, you know, it's a really cool place.
- [20:11]
C
As a specific one that from last Christmas I came across a recipe for vegan Wellington. So beef Wellington's. I don't know if it is eaten everywhere, but it's essentially a showpiece meal because it's a big piece of Philip beef and it's got mushrooms and wrapped in pastry and. And so there's vegan versions of this and. And it was a real sort of showpiece center. But everyone wanted a piece of this because it was. It looks really good and it was delicious. And that was from a couple of guys in Ireland called the Happy Pear.
- [20:52]
A
Yes, I'm familiar with them.
- [20:54]
C
And that P E A R pear that's in the. The fruit and. And they've got books, but then they've got YouTube channels and it's freely available. Actually it's on the YouTube channel. How to make their.
- [21:05]
A
That sounds really Fancy vegan.
- [21:07]
C
Well, yeah, and it did take a bit of work. So it was one of those sorts, as you say, cook it for you cook it or not cook it, but prepare it first, freeze it, and then put it in the oven at the last point. So I was actually going to my brother's, so I had it all ready to go, and then it just needs to go into the oven for half an hour, and then it's done.
- [21:24]
A
That sounds delicious. That sounds delicious. I think that that's something that would definitely kind of blend in that kind of meal. You could bring it, and it kind of looks like everybody else's kind of traditional holiday meal. I think also, and I mentioned this earlier, I think that eventually.
- [21:42]
You learn to embrace that your plate looks different. You know, Like.
- [21:48]
I think for me, in the last couple years, I don't really try to mimic exactly what everybody else's plate looks like. I kind of try and make something that is a little more maybe involved or a little more fancy, but it doesn't need to exactly, you know, like, mimic the same kind of plate that maybe I would have done, you know, seven or eight years ago, just in case there's anybody listening who feels, you know, pressure to be like, okay, how can I make, you know, something that's gonna look the same, that's gonna go with gravy? Like, I think it's okay if you're into different flavors and you just want something delicious to totally, you know, just, like, do your own thing.
- [22:26]
C
Would it be any different if it was an evening?
- [22:32]
Like, so we might just have, like, canapes with drinks, things like that. Is there any other tips for that sort of thing? If you're having friends around maybe for, like, New Year celebration, and you just want some. Some canape side dishes to have with drinks, for sure.
- [22:47]
A
And actually, that's probably.
- [22:50]
The most enjoyable way for me to have people in over the holidays is for kind of, like, finger foods and snacks. So there are a lot of foods that you can make that people don't even know, don't have dairy or are low in saturated fat or don't have meat. So different kinds of dips, hummuses, or. I like to make an artichoke spinach dip out of cashews and frozen spinach and, you know, canned artichokes. And you bake it in the oven the same way you would just a regular one that's made with cream cheese, and nobody really knows the difference. So I find that those kinds of parties, it's really easy to make stuff and then the other thing, too, I would say for parties is, you know, call on your friends and your family and make it like a potluck or just ask someone to bring something small. You know, that's always. That's always really helpful.
- [23:43]
C
The only. Sometimes I have problem where I take things along and I have gone to some trouble and make something really nice, and then everyone eats my food. But then I feel really bad and say, I don't want to be exclusive, so you can't eat this, but I can't eat the rest of it.
- [24:00]
A
I totally relate to that.
- [24:04]
And that kind of feels good, too, though. You're like, hey, this is actually really good for you. How many dinner parties or just like, cocktail parties have I been at where all I end up talking about is food? Because someone will be eating something that I made and brought, and we strike up a conversation, I'm like, yeah, there's no dairy in that, or there's no oil in that, or it's made from beans. My favorite food group to kind of do magical things with is beans and then end up talking and telling them that not only is it delicious, it's actually really good for you. And then they get into it, and then everybody eats it. That happens all the time. So, yeah, that's something that you might run into. If you make something delicious that's healthy, you're warned that people might want to eat it on you. But those kinds of parties are, I think, a little easier because you can make familiar foods not just for yourself, but for other people. It's easy to make bruschetta, and if gluten is a part of your diet, it's so easy to get a delicious sourdough bread and to make a couple of dips or to make a guacamole or stuffed mushrooms. That's a big one that I used to make a lot in the beginning. So, yeah, I think that you've just got to.
- [25:22]
If you do like cooking and you can be a little bit creative and you want to try new things, I think the holidays is a really great time to do that.
- [25:31]
C
So we've talked a lot about the main meal, the main dish, if you like. But what about puddings and desserts and a more sort of sweeter dish that you might have?
- [25:41]
A
Yes. So this is my absolute favorite. I'm so passionate about this topic. I have a really big sweet tooth, and for a few years, I missed really delicious baked goods. So for Christmas, there is one particular recipe that I make almost every Thanksgiving and every Christmas and it's like a plant based spice cake. I made a couple of versions of it and then I made one and it was just absolute perfection. So this has become a really popular recipe from my blog. But it's like a Christmas bundt cake and it's made from oat flour and almond flour and there's some coconut sugar in there and then tons of spices. So you know, all those like warm, delicious spices that you think about when you think of the holidays or the colder season. So like cinnamon, ginger, cloves, allspice. And then, then I drizzle a cashew cream cheese kind of over and top it with pomegranate seeds and pecans and it's just incredible. So that's something that I make a lot of and it actually freezes very well. So this is one of those recipes that I make way ahead of time. So I can make it a couple of weeks before a particular meal and freeze it and then I'm good to go. I just take it out the night before and it's ready for the next day. Another thing that I would say that I make a lot of because you said puddings and I'm not sure for your international listeners, I know when you say, when you say pudding in British, does that mean like actual pudding or like, what's a pudding?
- [27:13]
C
It can be either. I mean, I mean the sweet thing you have after the main.
- [27:19]
A
Okay. Puddings. Right?
- [27:21]
C
Okay. Yeah.
- [27:21]
A
So just like dessert. And so then I was going to say because another one of my go to desserts are actual pudding. So like things that you eat with a spoon and for that, you know, you need to have a blender. And if anybody is looking to get an appliance to make whole food cooking easier, I would say a good quality blender is number one. But, you know, you can just blend. I make a lot of, you know, blended.
- [27:48]
Yeah. Desserts. So I blend mangoes with cashews and cinnamon and it's just an incredible, really decadent tasting, but still light and creamy dessert. I like to make chocolate puddings. I make one out of sweet potatoes and cocoa powder and almond butter. So there's a lot of like easy ways of throwing together dessert as well. They don't, you know, not all of them need to be, you know, baked goods. But I would say those are the two things around the holiday seasons that I make the most. So the spice cake and then, you know, puddings that I can just whip together the day of and pop in the fridge and then serve in, you know, little dishes. With, you know, berries on top or something like that.
- [28:25]
C
And so we talked a lot about the holidays. But is there just a nugget of advice that you have in general from preparing meals just as a closing tip for everyone about cooking when you're following an OMES compliant diet?
- [28:43]
A
Yeah, you know, I think there's a few things.
- [28:47]
Over the last few years I've been put in touch with or people have reached out to me, people that I know from where I'm from, or friends of friends or friends of family, people who have been diagnosed with ms, and they heard through the grapevine that I follow a certain kind of diet or I did something. And so then I kind of introduced people to the illness program. And I've seen a lot of people through the very beginning to what is this? To people who just. I haven't heard of in a couple years because they're off doing their own thing because they eat this way again. And I would say that the thing that I learned from watching other people transition and helping people and helping my sister is that you've got to feel really good about the choices you're making, and you've got to be kind to yourself. If it takes you longer to give up something or you're struggling with something, you can't berate yourself or get down on yourself because it's difficult. It is difficult. If everybody. If it was super easy, then the OMS program and all of the resources it provides might not be necessary. And then the other thing that I would say is, when it comes to cooking, don't be afraid to try new things. Things like tofu and tempeh. And if you're not used to cooking with beans, start cooking with beans. And then to include a different variety of whole grains. And all this stuff isn't going to come overnight, but. But it does give you something. It's almost like a bit of a hobby, I guess, just to get a little more interested in including variety into your diet. So I would say be kind to yourself and try new things, that's for sure. And then also, if you can get a buddy, a cooking buddy, it doesn't need to be somebody who's also on the OMS program. But I have found that really helpful for other people when someone can call me directly and ask me, how did you make that? What ingredients did you use for this? Or where did you find this? I think that it's helpful to just be able to reach out and share the experience with other people and to not try and do it all alone. And if you have a buddy who's on the Ole Miss program, which I have met a few through the Ole Miss forums, that's even better.
- [31:06]
C
Thank you very much for that. So thank you very much for joining us. Happy holiday season.
- [31:12]
A
Yeah, happy holidays to you as well. And I just want to say thanks for doing this.
- [31:17]
B
In this episode, Ashley talks about the Overcoming Ms. Forum, which has since been updated to the LiveWell Hub. Visit hub.overcomingms.org to get started.
- [31:30]
Thank you for listening to this episode of Living well with Ms. Please check out this episode's show notes@overcomingms.org podcast. You'll find useful links and bonus information there. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. And please rate and review the show to help others find us. This show is made possible by the Overcoming Ms. Community. Our theme music is by Claire and Mav Dean. Our host is Jeff Alex. Our videos are edited by Lorna Greenwood and I'm the producer, Regina Beach. Have questions or ideas to share? Email us at. Podcaster.
- [32:11]
We'd love to hear from you. The Living well with Ms. Podcast is for private, noncommercial use and exists to educate and inspire our community of listeners. We do not offer medical advice. For medical advice, please contact your doctor or other licensed healthcare professional.