Choosing an MS Management Program with Juliet Delattre | S7E27

Summary

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Living Well with Multiple Sclerosis

Episode: Choosing an MS Management Program with Juliet Delattre | S7E27
Host: Geoff Allix
Guest: Juliet Delattre
Released: December 24, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode centers around Juliet Delattre’s personal experience navigating life with Multiple Sclerosis (MS), her process of adopting the Overcoming MS (OMS) program, and her journey through various lifestyle changes to manage MS. Juliet shares candidly about her diagnosis, the challenges of making treatment decisions, the importance of community, and tips for sustaining positive change. Geoff and Juliet discuss not just the practical aspects of diet, medication, stress, and exercise, but also the emotional landscape—touching on grief, resilience, and the role of creativity in adaptation.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Juliet’s Diagnosis Journey

• Initial Symptoms and Diagnosis ([01:38]–[04:09])

  • Juliet recounts feeling numbness on one side of her face and leg, confusing it with dental or nerve issues.
  • “I went there to sit and I just saw his face. It was really sad. I'm really concerned. And that was the moment I was really confused because I did not expect him to be so concerned.” (Juliet, [02:32])
  • She was shocked due to lack of family history and minimal prior symptoms.
  • Initial information from her neurologist felt overwhelming and discouraging: “He just started to say, like, oh, yeah, it's difficult, it's not curable, and you can have this and this and this and this and this can happen to you.”

• Information Overload and Healthcare System Limitations

  • Frustration at limited answers from her neurologist and lack of guidance on lifestyle management.
  • Expresses disappointment at healthcare system constraints and lack of holistic support: “To my idea, a little bit caged. Caged within the system he is in...” (Juliet, [04:34])

2. Deciding Whom to Tell

• Managing Disclosure ([05:09]–[06:15])
  • Juliet chose to tell only those she trusted deeply to avoid emotionally charged reactions.
  • “I didn't like the look on the face of my neurologist in the beginning. I didn't feel like having these shocked reactions and these concerned reactions the whole time.” (Juliet, [05:23])
  • Now, she feels more comfortable sharing, in part due to the OMS community.

3. The Value of Community

• Finding Support ([06:15]–[06:56])
  • Geoff and Juliet discuss the significance of finding others with MS, especially during uncertain times like the COVID pandemic.
  • OMS community as a safe, understanding space for practical and emotional support.

4. Treatment Choices: Medication and Lifestyle ([06:59]–[09:27])

• Juliet initially hesitated to take medication, influenced by her minimal symptoms and advice from her mother’s friend, whose experience with older medications was discouraging.
• She prioritized focusing on diet and stress reduction: “So I just want to focus on that now and that's what I've been doing all these months.” ([08:12])
• She keeps an open mind about medication as options improve: “I am considering taking medications now a little bit more but I don't feel a major rush because I'm doing okay MS wise...” ([08:39])
• Geoff highlights improvements in MS medications and prospects in research, like vaccines for Epstein-Barr virus.

5. Life Changes Post-Diagnosis

• Education, Work, and COVID ([09:47]–[11:30])
  • Stressed by trying to finish her bachelor’s just as COVID hit ("So I had like four months, the diagnosis and then Covid happened. So that was on top of that, a very big shock." – Juliet, [10:09]).
  • Met her partner just before diagnosis: “That was a bit of a weird mix. Very stressed, but also starting to fall in love.” ([10:38])
  • Transitioned to working online, traveled frequently, and adapted her lifestyle.

6. Adopting the Overcoming MS Program as a Couple

• Travel, Dietary Changes, and Partner Support ([11:30]–[14:01])

  • Her partner adopted the diet with her, boosting morale and motivation.
  • Travel remained feasible by planning, cooking, and communicating dietary needs at restaurants:
    • “I've sometimes been on a restaurant with a group of friends and I knew that I couldn't eat it and I would just take my own food and put it under the table...” ([13:29])

• Restaurants and Flexibility ([14:01]–[15:14])

  • Geoff shares tips about calling ahead to restaurants: “If you ask, I think sometimes chefs don't mind that. They quite like... They probably get quite bored of cooking the same thing.” ([15:03])
  • Juliet agrees that chefs often enjoy the creative challenge.

7. Finding and Settling on a Management Program

• Journey Through Diets: From “Organic Only” to OMS ([15:48]–[18:04])
  • Juliet tried gluten/lactose/sugar-free, Ayurveda, and organic diets.
  • Ayurveda proved complex and stressful: “…I didn't feel really connected and I found it really stressful because I couldn't really comprehend it.” ([16:47])
  • OMS clicked due to accessible science and clear rationale: “I felt like, okay, I now understand what I'm doing and it makes sense to me. So yeah, it just makes sense.” ([17:42])

8. Stress Management and Meditation

• Evolution of Practice ([18:04]–[22:29])
  • Developed unique meditation by drawing sensations with eyes closed post-diagnosis.
  • Used guided meditations, Joe Dispenza’s practices, and completed a 10-day Vipassana silent retreat:
    • “That was really difficult. But it really helped me just to notice really subtle sensations in my body, but also focus.” ([19:50])
  • Cautions against letting routines become stressful: “I was like, oh, no, I still have to meditate. Yeah. Then you... That it doesn't make sense anymore.” ([21:26])
  • Conversation about not letting apps or streaks turn relaxation practices into sources of anxiety.

9. Navigating Education with MS

• Challenges in University Settings ([22:29]–[25:30])
  • Starting a master’s led to her first major flare-up (optic neuritis).
  • University faculty were empathetic, but institutional accommodations were inadequate.
  • Eventually left the master’s, continued research informally: “My teachers were really disappointed that they also understood because they, they were also a little bit caged so to say within the system…” ([25:14])

10. Discovering OMS & Family Support

• How Juliet Found OMS ([25:30]–[26:58])
  • “The biggest motivation was the fact that I now had a flare up. So my partner said, I think something needs to change. Just eating organic isn't enough.” ([25:34])
  • Discovered OMS after researching the Wahls diet. Wishes healthcare providers shared resources like OMS earlier.
  • Involving her partner and father in the diet:
    • “He said, okay, don't worry about it. I will cook all the foods from now on for a bit. So you... until the flare up is gone and until we understand the diet completely.” ([27:27])

11. Practicalities and Mindset for Diet

• Getting Past the Overwhelm ([28:22]–[29:09])
  • Relates to the “constant label reading” curve and appreciates support from loved ones.
  • “Now I can just quickly scan. In the UK, they make it bold. If they have dairy in anything, it's in bold letters on the ingredients.” (Geoff, [29:02])

12. Exercise Evolution

• From Caution to Confidence ([29:12]–[31:10])
  • Previously cautious about exercise, did only gentle yoga.
  • “[Now] I started to exercise a lot. And I noticed effects were amazing, as in when I would feel something in my leg that didn't feel right and I just exercised. I noticed the release being there and happening.”
  • Emphasizes adapting exercise to mood/state—ranging from Pilates to swimming.
  • Exercise strengthens both physically and emotionally: “You just get stronger. And all of a sudden I notice like, okay, this is, this is really, really helpful. And I just get happier.” ([31:05])

13. Loss and Grief

• Coping with Loss of Her Father ([31:58]–[34:19])
  • Her father’s sudden death was “the most stressful period of my life for a long time.”
  • At times could not meditate; instead, relied on trust and patience: “I think that for everyone is really different how you cope with a loss. And I'm still in the process... What helps me the most is a certain trust that things will be okay and things will find its way.” ([33:01])
  • Navigated through “ups and downs” and allowed herself to process grief slowly.

14. Optimism for the Future

• Looking Ahead ([34:19]–[35:31])
  • Despite deep grief, she avoided MS relapses and credits the program with helping her get through: “It did give me a lot of extra confidence for the program because I just... reading the book right now. That's really nice. That gives me an extra... an extra boost.”
  • Looking forward to further involvement with Overcoming MS.

15. Final Advice to Listeners

• Creative, Kind, and Flexible Approach ([35:36]–[36:45])
  • Encourages non-perfectionism: “Don't be too harsh on yourself. It's okay to have down periods, but try as much as possible as you can to think creatively and be open to many possibilities…” ([35:36])
  • Suggests seeing dietary and other limitations as invitations for creativity and new possibilities rather than deprivation.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Just eating organic isn't enough… I still don't understand why it took so long for me to find Overcoming MS. I wished that my neurologist would have told me, like, hey, there's a program.”
  — Juliet ([25:34])
• “I just started crying at that point without even knowing what it was, just because he looked at me like there was the worst thing ever in his eyes.”
  — Juliet on hearing her diagnosis ([03:04])
• “I just want to figure it out myself first before I open up further. By the way, now I am opening up a lot more and I think being in this program helps a lot because I have a bit more of a feeling, okay, I know what I'm doing right now and I'm understanding it a bit more.”
  — Juliet ([05:40])
• “Don't be too harsh on yourself. It's okay to have down periods, but try as much as possible as you can to think creatively and be open to many possibilities.”
  — Juliet ([35:36])
• “I noticed effects were amazing, as in when I would feel something in my leg that didn't feel right and I just exercised. I noticed the release being there and happening. So that motivated me a lot.”
  — Juliet ([29:54])
• “At first you spend your whole time reading ingredients… sometimes there are some things… they like, randomly put milk into things or palm oil or something. And it's like, it didn't before. Why have you changed it?”
  — Geoff ([28:32])

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Important Timestamps

• Juliet’s diagnosis story: [01:38]–[04:09]
• Decision not to immediately take meds: [06:59]–[09:27]
• Shift to OMS diet and program: [15:48]–[18:04], [25:30]–[26:58]
• Coping with flare-ups and support from family: [27:14]–[28:22]
• Stress, meditation, and resilience after her father’s death: [31:58]–[34:19]
• Final advice for listeners: [35:36]–[36:45]

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Tone & Takeaways

The conversation is honest, empathetic, and pragmatic. Juliet’s openness about vulnerability, trial and error in lifestyle management, and the critical role of both community and flexible thinking offer hope and encouragement to listeners. The episode highlights the OMS pillars not as rigid commandments but as adaptable tools for living well with MS.

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For more information or support:
Visit OvercomingMS.org or check out the show notes for additional resources.

Transcript

[A]

The biggest motivation was the fact that I now had a flare up. So my partner said, I think something needs to change. Just eating organic isn't enough. I mean, of course it was also to stress, but we felt like, okay, there needs to be more happening. I still don't understand why it took so long for me to find Overcoming Ms. I wished that my neurologist would have told me, like, hey, there's a program. Actually, I did call with my neurologist. I told him, like, there's this program I'm going to follow. And he was like, oh, okay, Interesting. Can you send me a link? Welcome.

[B]

Welcome to Living well with Ms. This show comes to you from Overcoming ms, the world's leading multiple sclerosis healthy lifestyle charity which helps people live a full and healthy life. Through the Overcoming Ms. Program, we interview a range of experts and people with multiple sclerosis. Please remember, all opinions expressed are their own. Receive monthly tips and ideas about Living well with Ms. By signing up for our [e-mail] newsletter and now let's meet our guest.

[C]

Welcome to the latest edition of the Living well with Ms. Podcast. Joining me on this edition is Juliet Delatra from the Netherlands. Juliette was diagnosed with Ms. In 2019, which came as a big shock as she didn't have any noticeable flare ups and she doesn't have any family members with Ms. From that moment, she decided to focus on changing her lifestyle. She finished her bachelor's degree and has since started to work online as a language teacher. Future. So welcome, Juliet.

[A]

Thank you.

[C]

So to start off with, we'll start with this. Could you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about your diagnosis?

[A]

Yeah, well, I'm Juliet and you introduced me a little bit already. I'm working online. I am right now living in Italy, but originally I'm from the Netherlands and I live there from time to time as well. Then about my diagnosis, that's now almost six years ago. That came as quite a big shock because I, I was at that time doing my bachelor's and I just had a little bit of a numb feeling on my left side of my face and a bit of a numb feeling in my leg, but not really significant. I had no idea what it was. I was a bit confused. Then a friend told me, yeah, just let it be checked because maybe if it's the same side, maybe it has to do something with your brain. And I thought, well, let me check it. And then I went to my GP and my GP was quite hesitant as well. And I'm not so sure Why? I was pushing it a bit, but I thought, like, just to be sure, why not? So I convinced them a bit. And then I went to the neurologist for an mri and I thought I actually had a tooth nerve thing, that maybe a nerve was bugged in my tooth. And well, then eventually I went there to sit and I just saw his face. It was really sad. I'm really concerned. And that was the moment I was really confused because I did not expect him to be so concerned. And then he said, yeah, I have really bad news for you. And I just started crying at that point without even knowing what it was, just because he looked at me like there was the worst thing ever in his eyes. So I was just shocked and I started crying and I heard something about ms, but at that point I had no idea what Ms. Was. So. So because I don't have any family members who have ms, I probably heard about it once, but it never clocked with me because I don't have any friends who have Ms. I didn't really know much about it at that point. He just started to say, like, oh, yeah, it's difficult, it's not curable, and you can have this and this and this and this and this can happen to you. So it just felt like a sort of a big load on me, sort of changing my life in that moment just to sort of. Yeah, everything turned around and that was really weird from not expecting it at all. Yeah, there was a big shock to say. Yeah, the months after it was really confusing because I went on the Internet searching what. What is a mess? And then you get, it's just always a bad idea. But I didn't know.

[C]

Everyone does.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. I knew it was a bad idea, but, yeah, I just felt like I need to know what's happening to me and what is going to happen to me. What is my life going to look like? Yeah, so that was. That wasn't so much fun. And I talked to the neurologist. I had like a book with me always for my questions. I had like a list of questions. And a lot of questions could not be answered because there wasn't so much that they knew about it. So. Yeah, we don't know that yet. Oh, we don't know that yet. And I just got really disappointed because I felt like, okay, what. What is this? Yeah, don't have stress. Don't smoke. I don't smoke. That wasn't the problem. But I thought, okay, no stress. Can you help me with that? No, sorry. I can give you medication. And that's it. And I felt a bit, yeah, I felt a bit let down. Really nice man, by the way, my neurologist. But to my idea, a little bit caged. Caged within the system he is in. And I just thought, okay, just help me, just give me a psychologist or coach that can help me to be stress free. But yeah, yeah, that's.

[C]

So who did you tell about your Ms. Diagnosis? How did you decide who to tell in the beginning?

[A]

Not so many people. Mostly the people I was close with and I would share lots with anyway. And that was mostly because I felt that I had to figure it out myself before I tell. Told people. Because when I would tell people I would also have a lot of shock reactions. I didn't like the look on the face of my neurologist in the beginning. I didn't feel like having these shocked reactions and these concerned reactions the whole time. So I kept it for a long time really to myself, except for the close people, just to have the feeling, okay, I just want to figure it out myself first before I open up further. By the way, now I am opening up a lot more and I think being in this program helps a lot because I have a bit more of a feeling, okay, I know what I'm doing right now and I'm understanding it a bit more. So it's easier to then talk and not feel so influenced by reactions that people have.

[C]

Yeah, I think it's quite nice as well that there's. The Overcoming Ms. Program has a community side to it as well because where I live I didn't come across anyone with Ms. I didn't. There's no, no one else to talk to, no one else to say is this an Ms. Symptom or have I just got some sort of illness or something? And, and, and just, you know, things like Covid as well, you know, like, you know, what should we do? Like make sure you get the vaccines or like, you know, all that because there's an extra health thing came in and so it was good to have a community, I think for sure.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

And that way, yeah, you're not worried at all about telling them because you know, they're all on the same in the same situation as you and.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's really nice. Yeah.

[C]

So I believe you don't take any medication and medication is one of the pillars of overcoming Ms. But it's optional. Certainly medication is where appropriate. It's not an anti medication program. But could you tell us a bit about your choice to not take Medication and how you're doing.

[A]

Yeah, sure. So especially when I got the diagnosis it was a big shock because I didn't have any big bodily effects, not any big flare ups. So it felt to me a bit weird to take immune suppressing drugs while I didn't feel so much so many my symptoms yet. So I felt at that moment a bit like okay, I don't have a rush at this moment and I feel like the thing, what my neurologist talked about, about the stress thing is maybe a good one to focus on first and I will take my time to consider medication. I also have to put out an influence as well. Was a friend of my mum who has a mess. She had. Well that's a lot longer ago than I had when she got the diagnosis. But she, she did take medication. She had really major flare ups but the medications didn't help her. So she was also really advising me against them. I know that the medication is really different right now than it was back in the day but I, I didn't have all the knowledge about it at that moment. And she took on a diet and that really helped her. She didn't, she went to an mri so again and there weren't any lesions to be found anymore. So that gave me a big hope. So I thought like okay, there is something in diet and there is something in anti stress. So I just want to focus on that now and that's what I've been doing all these months. It's. I am considering taking medications now a little bit more but I don't feel a major rush because I'm doing okay Ms. Wise but I know that taking medication a bit sooner than later is also a good idea. So it's something in my head, let's put it.

[C]

Good luck like you say. I think over the last, especially the last five years the medication has moved forward and is moving forward. There's new treatments coming online the whole time and each one seems to have better health effects but also less side effects. So whereas years ago it seemed to be loads of side effects for minimal improvement and.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah.

[C]

But yeah, and yeah, they're talking now about the idea that if they can vaccinate against Epstein Barr virus that maybe even that would almost eradicate it in the future. I mean it's too late for us, but maybe next generation.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that would be amazing.

[C]

So how did your life change then after you were diagnosed? So you, you've, you worked halfway through your bachelor's degree.

[A]

Were you almost at the End luckily, yeah, almost at the end. Luckily I was in my last year or last half year and then I took an extra half year because it took a bit more for me. I just needed a bit more. But yeah, no, quite a lot. I got ironically very stressed, something I didn't want to be, but that's what happened. And it was partially because I was trying to finish my bachelor, but I was also. That was also the moment Covid just happened. So I had like four months, the diagnosis and then Covid happened. So that was on top of that, a very big shock. So I was very stressed and I was just trying out like, okay, I have to have a diet was really. I didn't find overcoming Ms. Yet, but I was been going around to find a diet that suited and I've been trying to do the stress management, but at the same time also finishing the bachelor and trying to understand the whole thing of COVID One very nice thing was, is that I met my partner just before my diagnosis. And so it was a bit of a weird mix. Very stressed, but also starting to fall in love. That was a bit of a weird. It was a bit of a weird mix, but I guess that gave. That gave it a bit of a good side to it as well. Yeah, I think a lot has changed sort of my lifestyle. I've been trying to move well, I think with COVID everybody's lifestyle changes. But then on top of that, also my mess things. And then after my bachelor's I started to work online and my partner and I started traveling a lot more or living in several places. So.

[C]

So you've mentioned about travel and that you're in Italy now. So. So you travel together, you and your partner. And your partner's also. He's adopted the lifestyle changes with you. So can you tell us a bit about your travels and how he's found it, adopting the overcoming Ms. Program as well?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Before that it was a long time because it's now almost six years ago I got diagnosed and I've been following the program now for one and a half year. So there was like also five years and before that trying to figure out a lot of things. But for him to adopt the lifestyle, mostly the diet is. Is really was really, really helpful. I think it motivated me a lot. It gave me a lot of more hope and a lot of more courage to just keep going. Yeah, it could be sometimes a bit strict if I was being like, okay, well this time can just eat as. And I would ask why would you. And I would be like, good question. And then, no, that helped me, that helped me a lot. And it was really nice to go around and travel. It's really nice to work online. So the idea after my diagnosis that everything would be terrible because I could not do anything anymore and I would go downwards very fast. That's the story Google told me. And the ideas I created in my head was, wasn't the case anymore. And it was really nice to go out and travel and feel like, okay, I can, I can still live my life how I wanted.

[C]

So, so assuming someone is physically capable of travels, but in terms of the overcoming Ms. Diet especially, do you think, would you encourage people to still travel? Um, you know, you, you find it, it's, it's feasible to go to new places?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think also in these times a lot of people are vegan or eating gluten free, if you're doing it gluten free. So that's okay. I mean, it does mean. I don't mind it so much, but it does mean that you can't go out as easily as much. I don't mind that so much. I find it perfectly fine just to cook for myself. And it's a bit naughty to say this, but I've sometimes been on a restaurant with a group of friends and I knew that I couldn't eat it and I would just take my own food and put it under the table or I would put on a plate and sometimes I have to give that as well. Sometimes if you tell the people, like, hey, sorry, I have a diet, I can't eat this, is it okay if I bring my own food and put it on the plate? Most of the time they're really understandable. Yeah.

[C]

And a lot of restaurants will adapt, I think, I mean, as well.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

There was a. I, I've just been away and I checked their menu before and I rang them up and it was fine. There was, but it was, there was one thing and it meant that there wouldn't be any carbohydrates, it would just be a salad because they just had like fries was the option. And it was like, okay, that's not going to work. So I said, that's fine, I hope with a salad and I'll just fill myself up another time. But then, then they said, oh, there's some specials today. And they went through those and I said, oh, that. Does that have dairy in it? Because that was okay. It was like a steamed fish. And it was like, yeah, that sounds good. And I said, can I just Check there's no dairy and it's not fried. And. And they came back and they said, oh, yeah, there is dairy. But because you rang up about this and you told them all about your diet and the chef said he can do it this way and he can do it with new potatoes. And so he basically just made me a meal that fitted perfectly. And so I think if you ask, I think sometimes chefs don't mind that. They quite like, they probably get quite bored of cooking the same thing.

[A]

No, I was thinking, yeah, yeah, good chefs, just like a challenge a bit.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, I've had that a few times.

[A]

Yeah, nice.

[C]

And a backup plan is good as well. So having your secret food.

[B]

Yeah, it's not too late to start lifestyle changes to improve your mental and physical health. This year, the new version of our free 6 months to Overcoming Ms. Course has launched in the LiveWell Hub. You can join today adopt the full Overcoming Ms. Program or opt for individual Pillars diet and vitamin D, physical activity or stress management at your own pace. Visit hub.overcomingms.org to find out more.

[C]

So you've tried a few different diets. So you said you've just, you just in the last 18 months started overcoming Ms. So how did you find the other diets and how did you decide to. To stick with overcoming ms?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I've been first the advice of the friend of my mum. She lives in France, so I couldn't really go there. And also Covid, but she advised to not eat gluten, lactose and refined sugars. So that's the first thing I stick to. But then I had a feeling, oh, I have the feeling I have to do more. So I also got interested in Ayurvedic diets and that was I did two times. It was a bit difficult because I tried to read books about Ayurveda, but I think not having like the knowledge or growing up, well, I know that a lot of Westerners, people living in the west also do Ayurvedic diets, but I didn't feel really connected to the knowledge. I mean, I, I think there's a lot of good knowledge, but I just didn't really feel connected and I found it really stressful because I couldn't really comprehend it. So I then at that moment my partner said like, okay, you're getting stressed, so maybe it's not a good idea to stick to this diet. So then I decided to only do an organic diet. So I ate everything, but everything had to be organic. I did that for a long time. And when I found Overcoming a mess, I think the reason I, yeah, stuck with that one is because the knowledge, but it just made more sense to me. I could understand evidence. Yeah, the evidence sort of the language, how it is spoken because Ayurvedic is completely different language in a way, how things are perceived. There's a lot of knowledge that you sort of have to really go deep in. But the evidence and the scientific evidence from the Overcoming Ms. Diet, I can comprehend that. And it's. Yeah, I felt like, okay, I now understand what I'm doing and it makes sense to me. So yeah, it just makes sense. So it just clicked and then I felt really motivated. Okay, I just want to go for this. And there were no questions anymore. I wasn't hesitant anymore. So I, I very quickly just took it on in that way.

[C]

And you've mentioned stress quite a few times.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

How do you manage stress? And if you have you got a meditation practice and how have you managed that?

[A]

Yeah, so I've been doing a lot of different things. One of the first things was that I would close my eyes and started drawing and then the sensations, it was close after my diagnosis just to understand what was really happening in my body because I didn't feel many flare ups but I knew there were a lot of lesions visible in my brain. So I was just thinking like, okay, what is happening? I don't trust my body anymore. I wrote a blog about it as well. I think that will be in the show notes. But yeah, I did this by closing my eyes and I would draw my sensations and that was a really nice meditative practice because I felt a lot more connected to what was happening and it calmed me down a lot. And yeah, I've been experimenting with this and I still do it from time to time. And yeah, that helped me a lot. But I've also been meditating in a more classic sense with, well, different things. I've been going into Joe Dispenza with the placebo idea and I've been listening to his recordings and that is more. Yeah, I don't want to diminish it by saying it's like the affirmation things you really think about positive things. And there's also some healing meditations I listen, still listen to from time to time. Just calms me down. It's a really positive thing, like I am fine, everything is okay, you're safe. That really helped me or it still helps me. And I also. There's a bit of a different practice. Did a Vipassana retreat for 10 days in Italy, that was quite a challenge because you have to be silent, right? You have to keep quiet for 10 days straight. That was quite a. That was quite difficult. And you can't have phone, you can't have anything to write with. You have like blanco and you just have yourself and a lot of other people, but you don't have eye contact. You just keep to yourself for 10 days. I've been really frustrated from time to time, but you can't do anything because you can't talk. Of course, if you're really not taking it anymore, you can step out, but in general you don't do that just because. So that was really. That was really difficult. But it really helped me just to notice really subtle sensations in my body, but also focus. And I did that with my drawings. Then also afterwards, just focus on more positive things that are happening in your body. Just not only focus like, oh, where is a flare up? Or where is pain and where is this? Or that is just trying to notice everything that's happening in your body. And after the 10 days of mostly frustrations, I felt like, okay, is this going to help me? But really afterwards I felt really calm and that was amazing. I think one and a half years ago, I as well took us together with actually finding overcoming Ms. I took also hypnosis therapy one time and I had never done that before, but that really calmed me down as well. Sort of. Really. Yeah. So there are different. Really a lot of different things. And I've been meditating one hour per day for a long day time until I got a bit stressed about it a few months ago. So now I decided to really stick to 30 minutes and that's really enough. You don't have to do an hour every day because it didn't fit in my day anymore. And I was like, oh, no, I still have to meditate. Yeah. Then you. That it doesn't make sense anymore.

[C]

Yeah. There was a podcast I did a long time ago with someone called Alex Sirigotis and he became obsessed with meditating. So he. One of the apps he was using and it had a daily streak and he became obsessed with increasing his daily streak. But then if he was there was like work or something caused it difficult, it was difficult. And he got stressed out about maintaining his meditation streak in the app and he said, this is not working. I'm actually getting stressed about doing stress relief. So he then deliberately makes sure that he has a day without using the app. He might meditate another way, but he just makes. He deliberately breaks the Streaks because otherwise he's aiming for like oh, I need to get to 50 days or. And he said that's not healthy.

[A]

That's not healthy. There's no good. There's no good. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

So you've mentioned about your university and that you were diagnosed during your bachelor's and and then you began a master's as well. So what was your experience of telling them at university and your symptoms and how did you navigate that situation?

[A]

Yeah, so that was. I always am confused with the years but I think now, well, just before I found overcoming Ms. So almost two years ago I decided to start a Master's. I was always very careful with doing other things than my online job. I was really comfortable in but I felt, I don't know, I felt really good. So I thought like okay, I can take another step now, I feel ready. But then I also was really scared and stressed for starting my masters. It was like a one year master's and of Applied anthropology. I studied anthropology also in bachelor and I wanted to Applied Anthropology and I. It was a short, short period but people said like okay, that's quite a hardcore master's. Very short but really intense. So I got a bit scared of that. So I got a bit stressed out. And then the day before my master started I got my biggest flare up that I, that I had since. But yeah, that was my first big flare up I have to say. Then I had my. There was a visual one. There's a specific name for it, I don't know how what the name for it is.

[C]

Optic neuritis.

[A]

Optics. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. So I, I could walk but the vision would go very quick next to me so I, it was really. I would be really dizzy, really nauseous so I had to sit down. That was better. It was really hard to read but I was very stubborn so I wanted to continue. So I talked to the university and my teachers were really nice about it. But the system was really difficult as in I expected to have like audio to listen to as the articles I had to read to have audio because reading the articles took me I don't know how many times more than normally than it normally would. So I just felt, yeah, I don't know, I just, I was really frustrated that the university couldn't really deliver me so much. And then I thought like okay, I will take it slower. I couldn't make the deadlines because of everything. And then yeah, they wanted to help me but it was really hard to fall behind a lot. That meant in the end that I had to take two years for the masters and that was a lot of more money and I've really got demotivated to go and continue. So eventually I decided to stop with my masters but still do research and I would then do research in Italy and then find my own mentor. So that's what I did. In the end I, I just felt like okay, I just have to continue myself. My teachers were really disappointed that they also understood because they, they were also a little bit gauged so to say within the system they couldn't do more than, than that. They were really understanding and helpful. Yeah. So that was in the end I just did my own research in my bit more amount time with a known mentor.

[C]

And how did you eventually find overcoming ms? How did you come around?

[A]

Yeah. Mm. Yeah. That was actually the biggest motivation was the fact that I now had a flare ups and my partner said I think something needs to change. Just eating organic isn't enough. I mean of course it was also to stress but we felt like, okay, there needs to be more happening. I still don't understand why it took so long for me to find overcoming Ms. I wished that my neurologist would have told me like hey, there's a program. Actually I did call with my neurologist. I told him like there's this program I'm gonna follow. And he was like oh, okay, interesting. Can sent me a link. I didn't talk to him afterwards but he was interested. So I, I'm just hoping that he will do something with it. And yeah, so I went online. That's how I found overcoming Ms. I found first found the wolves diet and I started off with this one and then I found it found overcoming mess and it was a bit confused and like okay too. What do I do with that? So then I combined that for a while and eventually I stuck with the overcoming Ms. Completely.

[C]

Yeah, I mean they're not completely different. And we had Terry Wells on the, on the podcast and she's in agreement with most stuff that we're doing. It's, it's, you know, there are some differences, but there's a lot of overlap. And that's where you realize then you think, hang on, how have all these people come to mostly the same conclusion? There's a lot of not going on.

[A]

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

[C]

So also just to mention your father as well. So your partner and your father helped you adopt the diet pillar. So how you mentioned that your partner adopted it completely, but your father as well, how did they help you adopt the Diet.

[A]

Yeah. So this was still. While I was having the flare up and I was doing the Masters, my partner also had to go to England, so we moved to my father's house and he stayed there for a bit as well. And my partner said, okay, I think what will help you? Or I was. He noticed because I was really stressed of adopting to a diet because of what happened before. I would be very stressed of adopting to a diet and thinking like, oh, all the things that need to happen. So he said, okay, don't worry about it. I will cook all the foods from now on for a bit. So you. Yeah, until the flare up is gone and until we understand the diet completely. So he would be cooking and then my father would learn from my partner. And then when my partner left to the uk, my father was starting to cook. Yeah. Started cooking for me. So that helped a lot. That's. That helped in being not stressed at all and just being like, okay, I just completely trust them and they can. They can take over. I know. That was. That was amazing. And then eventually, yeah, got used to it. And I also understood everything also by just observing what happens.

[C]

Yeah, because at first you spent. I remember the. Initially you spend your whole time reading ingredients and you go to everything you pick up. And even now, actually, because sometimes there are some things, like at the supermarket, you know, are fine and they like, okay, if I buy that brand of that product, I know that's fine. But then they change and they're like randomly put milk into things or palm oil or something. And it's like, it didn't before. Why have you changed it? And you just keep having to. But now I can just quickly scan. In the uk, they make it bold. If they add. If they have dairy in anything, it's in bold letters on the ingredients. So you can see it quite quickly.

[A]

So you can.

[C]

Yeah, a bit faster. But, yeah, it helps if you've got. Yeah. Partners and parents and things. Okay, we'll do all that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, no, that was. That was really, really good. Yeah.

[C]

So we've mentioned diet, mentioned stress relief. How about exercise? How have you coped with exercise? And have you changed your mindset around exercise?

[A]

Yes, a lot. A lot. Before I was really focusing on the meditation and the diet and it's always. I never saw anything about like, oh, exercising is good. I never came across that one. And I was always really careful. I always thought, like, oh, I'm very vulnerable with my body right now, so I shouldn't go too heavy with any exercises if I'm tired. Just stop. So I was really careful. I did yoga, which is good, of course, but really quiet and really. Yeah, just to calm, actually more for the stress release than for exercising. So when I saw that, that really gave me a boost. So I started to exercise a lot. And I noticed effects were amazing, as in when I would feel something in my leg that didn't feel right and I just exercised. I noticed the release being there and happening. So that motivated me a lot. And I had in the beginning a time where I liked to have really active exercises, as in sort of more jumping and going around with that. And now I don't really feel that so much. So I do a lot more Pilates. But it's really nice. You can just switch around, like, okay, what. What type of exercises do fit me now? But there's so much choice. So I do, by the way, everything via YouTube videos. That's the easiest. But I also do other sports like skiing and also sometimes running, not so much, but swimming lately a lot more. So that's. Yeah, that's amazing. So I, I just, Just see the effects very well. I just get stronger. And I also notice confidence in a way, you just get stronger. And all of a sudden I notice like, okay, this is, this is really, really helpful. And I just get happier.

[C]

When you speak to someone like Gretchen Hawley, it's. Who does a lot of the Ms. Online. Yeah, Ms. Stuff. And she does things for overcoming Ms. As well that.

[A]

The.

[C]

The neural pathways. So you actually just. Even if you think something's not moving properly or maybe not moving at all, maybe you. You've got really bad foot drop and your foot just doesn't lift just trying. Your brain will keep trying different ways of doing it, and eventually it will re. It will effectively almost fix itself. It'll find new ways to get to that. So if you keep doing something, it's. It's relearning and making sure it can carry on doing that thing. And if we don't move, if we just sit down and don't do anything, then your brain will be like, okay, you don't need to do that then. So it doesn't worry about doing it. But yeah, if you keep exercising, it's good.

[A]

Yeah, love it.

[C]

So you mentioned your father, and I'm sorry to hear that you've lost your father, that he passed away. How have you coped with that stress? Because that's obviously a major. One of the biggest sort of stresses in life is loss of your parents. So how have you coped with that? And the Grief that you had from that.

[A]

Yeah, it was a really stressful period. He decided to step out of life and that was a really sudden thing that happened. There was a lot of uncertainties for a few months in this period and that was last year. And yeah, that's for sure the most stressful period of my life for a long time. I found it really hard to meditate. I don't know why, but I just couldn't really. I would be able to lay down and maybe listen to music that would help me a bit, but not the meditation I did before. Just in the field right now I'm able to do that and I mean sort of to handle and cope. It is just. I think that for everyone is really different how you cope with a loss. And I'm still in the process. It's still confusing and I still have. I'm in this period that I don't fully realize what is happen has happened. But what helps me the most is a certain trust that things will be okay and things will find its way. And I know getting the diagnosis of Ms. Is quite different. I think it still helped me going through that. Still helped me because you sort of have like a huge. Yeah. Change in life and you also coping with that. And of course it's very different. But I think it still helped me a bit to sort of feel like, okay, just trust that things will be okay one way or the other and that things are okay in a certain way. But it's also okay to feel really bad because I had a period that I felt really sort of bad if I would be stressed because I wasn't allowed to be stressed. And you also have to let go of that because I mean you can't, you can't do that in a period like that. So I think that goes month by month. There's not a specific booklet or checklist to go through these things. So you have your ups and you have your downs, but you have to be patient with that and that process.

[C]

And just to ask another thing, do you feel positive about the future now?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I feel positive about it. I shouldn't jinx it too much, but I didn't have any big flare ups going through this very stressful period. And normally I always notice stress and directly I would feel that in my body. It's not that I didn't have anything noticing my body at all, but I actually expected to have a really big flare up after this very stressful period. And I of course don't know why and what, et cetera. But it did give me a lot of extra confidence for the program because I just. I don't know, it's just reading the book. I'm reading the book right now. That's really nice. That gives me an extra. Yeah. An extra boost. So, yeah, now I look very positive towards the future. It's, of course, has its downsides and it's not always easy. I. Overall, I have an optimistic view about the future. I will follow the pathway course to Overcoming Ms. For the first time. I'm really excited about that as well. I think it's nice to really go and talk to people and just hear everything and be able to ask questions about everything.

[C]

Yeah. And so finally, is there anything else you'd like to share with our listeners?

[A]

Well, I think don't be too harsh on yourself. It's okay to have down periods, but try as much as possible as you can to think creatively and be open to many possibilities, as in with exercises, for example, if you feel like, oh, I can't do this anymore, just be open to think like, oh, I cannot do it. I can do it otherwise. And also with meditation, for example, you don't always need to do this type of meditation. There's also a lot of walking meditation that help people. So just try and be open for many possibilities and be creative in that. That's just not one way of doing it. The diet is a bit different, but just be also able to think like, oh, yeah, like you said, a cook, a chef can change things around. And to be creative as well in the type of diets, as in, don't see it as a thing like, oh, I can't eat that. Oh, I can't eat that or cannot do that. I cannot do that. Try to think in like, wait, I can make this and I can make that, or what about this? Then, oh, yeah, I can do that. So try to think in the possibilities as much as you can.

[C]

Okay. Thank you very much for joining us. Juliet first.

[A]

No worries.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

Thank you as well.

[B]

Thank you for listening to this episode of Living well with Ms. Please check out this episode's show [e-mail] podcast. You'll find useful links and bonus information there. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. And please rate and review the show to help others find us. This show is not made possible by the Overcoming Ms. Community. Our theme music is by Claire and Mav Dean. Our host is Jeff Alex. Our videos are edited by Lorna Greenwood and I'm the producer, Regina beach. Have questions or ideas to share, email [e-mail] we'd love to hear from you. The Living Room with Ms. Podcast is for private, non commercial use and exists to educate and inspire inspire our community of listeners. We do not offer medical advice. For medical advice, please contact your doctor or other licensed healthcare professional.