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Living Well with Multiple Sclerosis
Managing Autoimmunity with a Whole-Food Plant-Based diet with Karen Lee | S8E3
00:43:42
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- [00:00]
Karen Lee
There's lots of kind of different thoughts about leaky gut and, you know, causes and things like that, but essentially that is when the tight junctions in the gut cells start to be broken down and leakiness itself is a key feature of an inflamed immune system. Welcome to Living well with Ms. This show comes to you from Overcoming ms, the world's leading multiple sclerosis healthy lifestyle charity, which helps people live a full and healthy life. Through the Overcoming Ms. Program, we interview a range of experts and people with multiple sclerosis. Please remember, all opinions expressed are their own. Receive monthly tips and ideas about Living well with Ms. By signing up for our newsletter@overcomingms.org newsletter and now let's meet our guest.
- [00:56]
Jeff Alex
Welcome to the latest edition of the Living well with Ms. Podcast. Joining me on this edition is Karen Lee. Karen is a retired intensive care nurse, nutritionist, advocate for plant based eating, author and recipe developer. She was diagnosed with Ms. In March 2016 after several bouts of severe optic neuritis. She feels very fortunate to have been aware of Overcoming Ms. Through a work colleague and adopted the program straight away. Already eating a whole food plant based diet, she soon learned the importance of the other six pillars in managing her health and is very happy that she remains well and active. Karen has created and run her own courses in whole food plant based eating and loves teaching people to cook amazing, tasty food that just happens to be good for your health. Karen, welcome to the podcast.
- [01:40]
Karen Lee
Thanks Jeff. Lovely to see you and thank you for having me here.
- [01:44]
Jeff Alex
So could you introduce yourself a little bit further than I have already and tell us about your Ms. Journey?
- [01:49]
Karen Lee
Sure, yeah. So I was diagnosed with relapsing Ms. Nearly 10 years ago. So it was March 2016 and it was nine months or so after my first major sign, which as you've mentioned, was optic neuritis. And yeah, that was a very strange time really, because when I first got the pain in my eye, it didn't worry about it too much because it was quite a familiar pain. And this is often a common story with people in Ms. Is there's these random things going on that you can't really pin it down to anything in particular. But this time the pain was much worse and my sight started to go and then I actually lost it completely, which was pretty scary at the time. But fortunately it did come back and although I saw an ophthalmic neurologist, I was quite like, oh, it's fine. It was just a strange thing I'd had. I managed to catch the flu off A patient, because I was still working in intensive care at that time. So I had been quite poorly and I just thought it's nothing. But then the pain started in my other eye, fortunately, no sight loss. And then my hand started, as I call it, disappearing. So I got this weakness in my arm and leg and then, and of course during this time, by this point, I'd been referred to another neurologist. I'd been having those tests, you know, the usual MRI scans, the dreaded lumbar puncture and. But by the time I actually saw my neurologist in the clinic a few months later, I was fine. And it was such a shock to be told that I had Ms. Because I had been in this massive denial. And as you say, I already knew about the Overcoming Ms. Program through a lovely colleague. Plus I was a plant based nutritionist, you know, so I was already plant based, but not, not necessarily in the way that is needed for the Overcoming Ms. Program. So I'd replaced. I was using coconut, a lot of coconut in my recipe, so a lot of saturated fat, a lot of chocolate. And so there was some tweaks that needed doing. But also, I think at that time in my life, stress was such a huge issue. And this is also something that we know impacts health a lot, you know, through work, through, you know, family life and then trying to, to work as an IT unit and do the sensitive foodie stuff as well, you know. But I'm really fortunate that in the last ten years I've only actually had one tiny new lesion, and that's more than five years ago now. And where I am today, I do feel like I'm managing to live pretty well with ms, which is, which is great news.
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Jeff Alex
So could you tell us a bit about your career journey? You're an intensive care nurse, as you mentioned, and now you're a nutritionist, an author. You're also an overcoming Ms. Facilitator. So tell us a bit about your career arc and what your current focus is.
- [04:56]
Karen Lee
Yeah, so. So there is quite a big change difference between them. Nursing's always been like my first passion. I trained as a nurse from the age of 18. I had some time out working in business actually, when I had a few back issues, then went back again after I had my children and I'd been. I've worked in two different types of intensive care, slightly ironically in neuro ITU and then in general itu, but between those two different roles I had a couple of years out and we as a family moved to India. So my Job. My husband had a job opportunity. So we went on this assignment and went and had this amazing family adventure. But I wasn't working whilst I was there, so I decided to study nutrition. And at this point I'd already found I'd been having these really persistent headaches and I discovered that these were connected to food. So I had issues with dairy and yeast, which meant that I'd already cut out most of my favorite foods, cheese, cake, bread, wine. And I felt that if I could understand more about the food health connection, it would be really useful for my career. But also essentially it would enable me to be able to drink wine again. It was that shallow. Um, and whilst I was studying and enjoying Indian adventure, I got this really random invitation to an event where the speaker was talking about dairy free eating. And I met this incredible woman called Dr. Nandita Shah who teaches people about using food as medicine, a whole food plant based diet. And the thing was, it wasn't what she said that really hit me, it was, it was her. So she was just glowing with this radiant energy. And I sat there and I thought, I want some of that. So I attended more of her events and it sort of went really well with the nutrition studies, went plant based. And I started blogging about it, I started blogging about the recipes that I was creating and basically that's how the sensitive foodie came about. And this is like 2011, 2012, so there wasn't much out there at that time. And when we returned to the uk, I finished my nutritionist studies and I started to run cooking classes and courses, you know, that type of thing. And I went back to working in intensive care. But like, this time it was general itu, not neuro. And the thing that really hit me over the next couple of years was the cost of chronic health to people in terms of quality of life and control. Now obviously my patients at that point were pretty sick, but you know, you spent quite a long time with them during the day, so we'd have these conversations and it really was the first time that hit me about this psychological and social impact of chronic health conditions and how disempowered they were. So I vowed I'd never be like that. I was going to be the difficult patient. So that when actually this diagnosis of Ms. Came about, I felt that I really needed to take action because I didn't want to be disempowered and I wanted to be able to live my life well. Like I say, I was still working in ITU when I had all of These problems and the diagnosis and it's a really stressful environment. You know, we do 13 hour shifts, we don't get many breaks. It's high pressure. I mean, you know, there are times you've literally got someone's life in your hand. It's emotional, there's all sorts of toxins. It's really not very conducive to health at all. After my diagnosis, I decided to take a break from nursing and focus on the sensitive foodie work instead, thinking that I get better and I'll be able to go back. But I soon realized that wasn't going to work and it was really hard leaving this role. I loved it as I felt that, you know, I made a difference. But I also found the human body really fascinating and I really enjoyed my nutrition work and it, it gave me time to do this other passion or the thing I'd always wanted to, which was write. As you've already mentioned, I did my first book, Eat well, Live well with Sensitive Foodie, that was published in 2019 and it kind of brought together all of my skills that I developed. So this fascination with food and with the body being able to explain quite complicated processes in an understandable way. And my selection of recipes of these easy to follow recipes that most importantly include amazing cake. And so that's just carried on really.
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Jeff Alex
And so you're an OMS facilitator specializing in diet. So could you refresh us a bit on the Overcoming Ms. Diet recommendations?
- [09:36]
Karen Lee
Yes, certainly. So the Overcoming Ms. Diet, it's mainly whole plant foods. So it's a whole food plant based diet with fish and seafood if you so desire. So this means it's really low in saturated fat but high in polyunsaturated fats. So these healthier fats. And it includes lots of fruits and vegetables, whole grains, beans, lentils, nuts and seeds. There really are so many different foods to choose from. Then on top of that, 20 to 40 mils of cold pressed flaxseed oil a day. So this, these are really, this is really high in anti inflammatory omega 3 fatty acids. And so that's what we promote in eating and advise people to avoid eating highly processed foods with lots of refined ingredients and lots of saturated fats, avoid meat and dairy and also obviously deep fried food as well.
- [10:32]
Jeff Alex
So how is diet so important? How is it key to immune health?
- [10:36]
Karen Lee
Yeah, so that, that's a really great question. So you know, firstly the food that we eat provides these essential nutrients that supports all of these functions in our body, including you know, the immune system. So all of our processes that we've got, they're, they're going on right down at cellular level. So we're talking really tiny, tiny, tiny compounds, you know, and all these chemical reactions and you know, we get all of these essential things from the food. So you know, protein, it gets broken down into amino acids and they're the building blocks that we need for, for the structures in our body. And a lot of compounds that are used in processes, we break down fats into fatty acid chains, they can be used for energy, but one of their roles is actually to support the structure of cell walls. So the type of fat that we eat actually impacts, directly impacts that structure of our cells. And every cell with its processes, it needs to have glucose as energy for it to be able to function properly. You know, like these are like the headline functions. And then there's all the micronutrients. So these smaller ones like vitamins and minerals, specifically for the immune system we need vitamin C, but also vitamin A and E and minerals like zinc and magnesium as well. So again, all coming from food. And vitamin D is also plays a really vital role in, in the immune system. Now we can get some of this from food, but mainly produce it through our skin when we're exposed to the sunlight. Looking outside my window today, it's gray, it's pouring with rain, so that's not happening today. So supplementing with Vitam vitamin D is important, particularly during, you know, this time of year in the winter months by these tiny compounds that you find in, in plant foods. So these phytonutrients, you may have heard of things like flavonoids and polyphenols, and these are all found in these colorful foods. And they also have many roles, including to help mop up something called free radicals. These are stray atoms left over from chemical reactions that can sort of start poking the immune system and creating inflammation. And what's really important is to think about the fact that our cells are constantly turning over, some of them faster than others. So we, we're renewing our bodies all the, all the time. And when we're making new cells, the body uses whatever is available, you know, and that is what comes from our food. So we are literally are what we eat. So when we eat all of these delicious, healthful, energy giving foods, it makes just such a huge difference. And our bodies are programmed to heal and these feeds support this, you know, so like I say, they're supporting our immune system, but also our body as a whole. And then the other key ingredient that I've not mentioned is fiber. Now, this is found in all whole plant foods and it's essential for gut health. And this is inextricably linked with immune health because 70% of the immune system is found in and around the gut. So the gut base, or otherwise known as the gastrointestinal tract, so it starts at the mouth and it's a really long tube that flows all the way through the body and ends, exits at the anus. And it's, it's like a connection of the outside world. It's a way of enabling the outside world to access the inside world of the body, or rather not allowing it in. You know, it depends on what it is. So in a lot of ways, this tract is like the same as the skin. So it's this protection, but we can't see it. And it itself needs protecting from invaders and pathogens that might do us harm. And when we're born, we have an innate immune system. So that happens when we're born. This tides us over. So it gives us this basic protection. But we also then have this learned immune system that helps us to identify structures that are friends and included in that could be food compounds. So we don't want the body reacting to every single food that we eat. So it could be a friend or a foe, like, you know, bacteria or toxin. And the immune structures in around the, and around the gut are all involved in this. So many of the foods that are commonly eaten today, they have this negative impact on the gut lining. And this also then triggers an immune response. It's sort of like, you know, the alarm bells go off, if you like. So this is things like the saturated fat or adulterated fats, particularly ones that have been sort of changed at a high heat. And they could be added chemicals or toxins or bad bacteria. You know, these are all key features of today's western diet. And this then triggers this low level inflammation. So this is a process that actually underlies all chronic health conditions, not just things like Ms. And other autoimmune diseases. And of course, course, we can't talk about food and immunity without mentioning fiber and the microbiome. So this is the colony of microbes that are found in the colon at the top of the large intestines. There's so much information that's coming out about microbiome in the last few years, really, it's research that's concluded. What many nutritionists have been saying for decades is that a healthy gut leads to a healthy us. And everyone's microbiome is made up of slightly, slightly different format and it's impacted by different factors. So apart from food, it could be medications that have an effect, particularly antibiotics. And it could be how much someone sleeps or how much stress someone's under, or how much you, you know, if you smoke and how much, and even where you live as well. So all these things have this, this, these effects on the microbiome. And it's important because you have this symbiotic relationship with it. So if we look after it, it will look after us. And we've even outsourced some metabolic roles to it, like sending chemical messengers and even sort of producing some vitamins and self made antibiotics. It thrives on fermentable fibre. So this is the type we can't digest. And the more different types of fibre we eat from fruits, vegetables, whole grains, nuts, seeds and pulses, the greater the diversity of fibre is provided. And this in, in then leads to a more diverse and happy microbiome. And you'll find fiber is a big thing this year. You know, this is the latest superfood, if you like. And it is good news because only 4% of the population hits the daily target of 30 grams a day, which is incredible and worrying all at the same time. And this is important because the microbiome does play a key role in immune health, like the signaling that I mentioned that does something called immunomodulation. So it can help turn the immune system on or off and these microbes turn over really quickly so we can get through at least five generations, if not more, in 24 hours. So if we're not providing the range of food or the type of fiber that's needed, some will die off and then we end up with this thing called dysbiosis.
- [17:49]
Jeff Alex
So next question. What is, what is that? So that's a setup I've never heard of. So what is dysbiosis and how does that affect us and how can it contribute to autoimmune diseases and ms?
- [18:03]
Karen Lee
Okay, so dysbiosis is basically is an imbalance in the makeup of microbes in the microbiome. So it's an, it's an unhappy colony. And in, in a nice balanced microbiome, there's always a mix of what we might label good bacteria and bad bacteria because everything has a role. However, the bad guys tend to be more resilient and can thrive in a tougher environment than the good guys. So it doesn't take much for things to be out of balance and then they start to proliferate. You know, that they, they start to thrive. And this is really important when it comes to that chemical signaling that I was, I just mentioned, because if the microbes involved in, in this immunomodulation, if they die off, then you lose that function, so you lose this helpful signaling. But it's also important for the gut lining as well. So if we don't provide the microbiome with enough dietary fibre, the microbes have to eat something and so they will start to eat the mucine layer. And this is like a protective gel which is on, on the gut wall. So once that gets nibbled away and it disappears, the gut lining, which is pretty thin, is directly exposed to the microbes and other compounds that can do it harm. And so, and as the immune system is right there, it gets set off both locally in the gut, but also systemically too. And it starts to work really hard to identify what's harmful and what's not, you know, and it continues if it doesn't get any time to kind of rest and it just continues to keep trying to work out what's going on, to identify the bad, identify the good, and then after a while it will just become overwhelmed and confused. And this is when our immune system starts making mistakes and it starts to misidentify our self. So our self, tissues for non self. So like something that we don't want there, it starts to attack perfectly healthy tissues and structures, most often a particular type of protein that is within those tissue structures. So for example, in ms, it attacks a protein that's found on the lining of the myelin sheath, which is the protective coating of the nerves. And as that sheath breaks down, those nerves stop working as effectively. In Crohn's disease, for example, it attacks a protein in the gut lining itself and therefore it starts breaking down the gut lining. It causes real problems there, prevents you from being able to absorb nutrients and things. In lupus, it attacks cells and tissues in key organs around the body, like the kidneys and the eyes. And in rheumatoid arthritis, it attacks connective tissue, often in the joints. That's why people have painful and inflamed joints. But it could be anywhere in the body, you know, and there's multiple factors that lead to this point, of course, you know, it's not just the food, genetics, it's environment, stress, sleep, all of the things that I've already mentioned, many, as we've seen, many of these are also connected to gut health. So just because there may be a genetic influence, those genes don't have to be switched on if we can maintain a good balance in our gut, eating really great food that supports the body and then, you know, we don't have to have this destiny. Nothing's determined. And in all of the research that I've looked at dysbiosis, this unbalanced microbiome is a common feature in all autoimmune disease. And so therefore it means that there's something that we can all do, you know, we can do something about it.
- [21:54]
Jeff Alex
And is that the same as when people talk about, talk about leaky gut, where like the things from the gut are getting into the bloodstream? It shouldn't be?
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Karen Lee
Yeah. Yes, that's right. Yeah. And there's lots of kind of different thoughts about leaky gut and, you know, causes and things like that. But essentially that is when the tight junctions in the gut cells start to be broken down. And leakiness itself is a key feature of an inflamed immune system because the, the white blood cells that get produced to go and investigate, you get this signal that there's a problem. You have these white blood cells that need to go and investigate and deal with it. They're bigger than your stomach and so all of your blood vessel linings need to become a little bit leaky. So there's tiny holes in there anyway for nutri, all of these things to get through. But it's like there's this flag that pops up and says there's a problem over here. And then the blood vessels become leaky, so they make these holes bigger so that those white blood cells can get through. So as well as like actually in the gut are leaky all over. So we want to try and calm all of that down as well.
- [23:05]
Jeff Alex
So you mentioned about being an author and so your latest book, Healing from the Inside Out, Managing Autoimmune Disease with a Whole food plant based Diet, was recently published. So firstly, congratulations.
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Karen Lee
Thank you.
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Jeff Alex
I love the idea of being a published author. It must be a huge amount of effort. So could you tell us a bit about your latest book?
- [23:23]
Karen Lee
Yes, thank you. Yeah. It does take a lot of time and effort and in my case, quite a lot of complaining, but I am actually really happy with it and my main aim is to be able to help people understand more about their house and what they can do to support it. So the overall structure is quite similar to my first one. So it's a book of two halves. So the first half looks at autoimmune disease, what it is, and it dives into a little bit more detail about the importance of gut health. And then it looks at again in more detail the foods that can trigger inflammation. And then whole, whole plant foods can help to reduce it and also to support the body as well. I've got a whole chapter on myth busting because there is a lot of disinformation out there and I give lots of information about making changes and things that can support someone's journey to heal. So there's lots of bits and bobs in there about my own story. But there's also stories of three other amazing women as well who have managed their own autoimmune disease with whole plant foods and their experiences and top tips as well. They're scattered throughout the first half and I'm really grateful for their time and willingness to be involved because they all have different autoimmune conditions. And I felt it was really important that it wasn't just about one type. You know, I wanted people to see these common connections. And then the second half, there's a hundred recipes ranging from breakfasts and easy foods and, you know, everything that you might want to have. And they're really easy to make and they don't take too long. Most of them don't take too long. And this is really important because we know that fatigue is a huge issue or people with autoimmune disease. We need quick things, you know, we need a quick win. And they're also all gluten free as well. So gluten isn't an issue for everyone with an autoimmune disease. But I wanted to make sure that everything was accessible to everyone. And so I, I quite like it because it's a little bit of an ironic twist that they can also be made with whole grain flour if you wish. Normally, for a lot of people, it's the other way around. Try and work out if it's going to work or not. And I tried to make sure that everything's really tasty because this is really important as it's not a short term diet. You know, healing takes time. And it's about a way of eating that promotes lifelong health so that everyone can enjoy them. You know, you don't have to have an autoimmune disease to be able to, to eat these recipes. So they're good for the family as well. And they'll help if you've got a chronic health condition, you know, so if you've got high blood pressure or heart disease, you know, they will help. And even if you're a picture of health, then it will help you stay that way.
- [26:13]
Jeff Alex
Yeah, it's great when you do a recipe and people love it, apart from it being anything special like so at Christmas loads of people eat my vegan Wellington and I make extra because it's really just for me and my family. But we make extra because we know that people will eat it.
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Karen Lee
Yeah.
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Jeff Alex
Because they just like it.
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Karen Lee
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And it's so important because it normalizes it, you know, if it tastes good then everyone will enjoy it.
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Jeff Alex
So how do plant foods or that whole, whole plant foods support overall health?
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Karen Lee
Yeah, thank you. This is, thank you for asking this question because it is important. The research shows that the plant based diet's not just for people who have health challenge, you know, so we. It has lots of healing properties. Of all the things that I've mentioned, you know, it's packed with nutrients, it's really nutrient dense in a form that the body can enjoy, that it's not going to sort of make it work harder again, packed with fiber. So we have this microbiome that is happy and healthy too. So really a plant based diet can help prevent many chronic health issues developing in the first place, you know, so it's not just for the sick. It's really important that everyone eats a plant predominant diet. And we can see this in a lot of the, the research that's been coming up in the last few years connecting food and longevity and also a lot of research into the Mediterranean diet style way of eating. And the headline for me in all of these studies is that the dietary pattern is main, mainly made up of whole plant foods. You know, so these people who are living well into their sort of late 90s, people who live in these what have been labeled blue zones, so lots of healthy aging and longevity and they're, they're mainly eating lots of lovely, colorful fruits and vegetables, whole grains, legumes, nuts and seeds. And if meat's eaten, it's in small amounts, so it's just safe as festivals or celebrations. And the people who eat this way, they have a much lower burden of disease and a longer life and health span, you know, and this overall, it adds up to a higher quality of life. And again, it's never just, just the food. You know, there is more invol. So it's things like moving your body, being outside, being part of community. All of these things do make a difference. And I love this because this is all part of the Overcoming Ms. Program. Of course, this is this research, if you like, or this way of living and eating. This is lifestyle medicine in action. Fantastically. It's beginning to be talked about in the medical world and in the press as well. And the latest Eat Lancet report which came out a couple of months ago, backs up this benefit of a plant rich or plant predominant diet for health, but not just for human health, but for planetary health as well. And we can't have healthy humans without having a healthy planet, you know, so it's, it's important for all of our health and well being. And we just know that these whole plant foods contain all of the nutrients that we need to thrive packaged up in this wonderful fiber. And so as long as we eat enough and we eat a variety of foods, then we can be fully nourished. So it is definitely not about restriction, but about abundance.
- [29:37]
Jeff Alex
So just as a little extra question, would you get enough protein on a plant based diet? That's a question I get often asked.
- [29:47]
Karen Lee
That's the question.
- [29:48]
Jeff Alex
I think people think protein and meat are the same thing, don't they?
- [29:51]
Karen Lee
Absolutely. But meat is not just, it's not pure protein. And the thing is what people forget is that protein is in every single food in some form. It might only be a small amount, but the food that we eat, it's what we eat during the day. So, so it, it builds up. So there's a surprising amount of protein in, in vegetables if you eat the selection of them. Now, if you only eat white yams and white rice, then you're not going to get enough protein. And this is why a variety in abundance is important. But then there's also a lot of foods which have a higher amount of plant protein. So this is where your beans and legumes come in. So things like tofu and tempeh, edamame, beans, lentils, nuts and seeds, you know, they all have good amounts of protein in them. And when you add it up over the day, you'll have plenty of protein. But the other thing is, what always gets me about the protein question is that very few people are protein deficient. But as I've already mentioned, 96% of people are fiber deficient. And so you don't just get one nutrient in food, you get a whole serving of different nutrients that add up into this whole picture during the day.
- [31:12]
Jeff Alex
And so do you have any tips for people trying to eat more plants or greater variety? So one of the things now is we hear rather than the five a day, I don't know who came up with it, but 30 a week was one of the things. Like it's not just because if you eat, if you eat the same five fruit and veg every single day, then that's not enough. You need to get all those micronutrients for that variety. So how do you, do you encourage people to, or help people to get more variety of plant based food?
- [31:39]
Karen Lee
Yeah, and this is really important because when you start to make changes it can be really overwhelming and sometimes so overwhelming that you can't start, you know, especially if you are already trying to deal with, with a health problem. And so a lot of it really depends on your starting point. And the 30 a week message is really important. Now that's 30 plants, different plants. And because as we, I've already mentioned, you know, this variety and different types of fiber is really important to support microbiome. But if you not eating any fruit and vegetables or you're not eating enough, then that's a bit too much, you know, that's a bit complicated really. My first tip is just to eat fruit and vegetable. More fruit and vegetables. It's currently only 29% of the UK population hits a 5 a day target and for health it should be at least 10 a day. But five is a starting point. So two fruits and three vegetables. So even if you eat the same five every day and it's not advisable, it's better than eating none or eating one, you know, so it really depends on your starting point. So simple things, you could add a portion of berries to your breakfast cereal, for example, and they don't have to be fresh. That's quite important. You know, frozen berries and retain the nutrients really well. And also they, they tend to be a bit more affordable as well, you know, because we've got to think about budgets. So you could have some berries on your breakfast, you could have an apple as a snack, you might have some soup that will give you a couple of portions of veg and then you might just add in some vegetables to your main meal, you know, so that, that's, that's not too hard, but it might be that you actually have to think about it. So once you've kind of got there, then you can start thinking about increasing it. So you're heading towards the 10 target. But then also start thinking about the colors of what you're eating. And this really helps with the variety. You know, this, this starts bringing in this 30 plants a week. So when you eat the rainbow, so all of these different colours, they have these different phytonutrients in it and so they all support the body in a different way. So it might be that you have blueberries at your breakfast one day, you might have some raspberries the next day. So, you know, you're starting to mix all of that up. And another way to start sort of thinking about eating more beneficial foods is to think about whole grains. So if you eat rice, then swap your white rice for whole grain rice or even red rice, you know, so there's different coloured rice, black rice, there's lots of different types. Why all of the beneficial fibre and nutrients have been taken out. The same with flour as well. You know, go for whole grain flour or maybe an ancient grain like spelt, but if you're gluten free, you look for minimally processed options. So you could have brown rice flour or buckwheat flour. So again, you're trying different things and mixing it up. And then you go back to your breakfast cereal, we try and add some seeds in. So you could have a tablespoon of ground flaxseed or some pumpkin seeds. And if you into nuts, you could have a handful of almonds. And then the next day you could try a couple of Brazil nuts, you know, so it. You're constantly mixing it up and it's surprising how quickly when you do those things that you could, you can build up to this 30 a week, because that number, this is plants, it's not fruits and vegetables. You can start looking at your beans and your lentils and if you're not used to eating these, suddenly going for two or three huge portions of these a day is not a good idea because your gut microbes, especially the bad guys, they love this type of fermentable fiber and they will have a party, there'll be loads of gas. Gas is always a byproduct of the breaking down or fermenting this fiber and can be really painful. It can make you very unpleasant to be around, you know, but if you live alone or it doesn't bother you, then go for it. But for most people, just start adding in a spoonful to something you're eating. So for example, if you've made a chilli, increase the amount of beans that you've got in there and then start reducing the amount of meat, you know, so you can just add it in that way or make a vegetable soup, add in some red lentils and also at the same time, the herbs and spices that you eat count as well. So they all count towards 30 a week. And they themselves have their own supportive compounds as well as lovely flavour. And if we said taste is so important, you know, I love eating, I don't want this to be some kind of austere, boring practice, you know, so. And at the same time, whilst you're adding in all of this loveliness, you can start thinking about reducing the less helpful. So if you love chips, I love chips, you know, make them in an air fryer, don't deep fry them, you know, things like that. If you want some cookies, make them yourself because then you know what's going into them rather than buying shop bought. So it's really thinking about what you're doing without becoming obsessed and just raising your awareness so that you can just make these choices that make you feel good. Living well with Ms. Is listener supported. If you would like to help the charity create more episodes and other resources to help people live well with MS, please visit donate.overcomingms.org to make a donation or check out overcomingms.org fundraise to find out more ways you can raise money for overcoming Ms.
- [37:22]
Jeff Alex
So you talked about your book having initially a primer on autoimmunity, the first half and then the second half with plant based recipes. So could I ask you, do you have a few favorite recipes that you'd like to share with us?
- [37:38]
Karen Lee
Yes, I do. I'm a real cake and dessert fiend so. So I love there's a sticky date and ginger cake. I'm really keen on that. And also I've managed to come up with a raspberry bakery tart. So I've always loved Bakewell tarts, so took me a while but I found a good option for that as well. In fact I indeed I love all of the cakes and desserts in there, but and another one which is a real firm favorite in the house I make quite often is a vegetable curry with chickpea dumplings and it just tastes amazing and it's really adaptable so it can be made with whatever veggies that you have. So you can just really mix it up and play a little bit around with the spices so that you get the flavor that works for you. And then there's actually a whole section on sauces, so there's a mix of savoury and sweet sauces. And these are just really useful because they can liven up the simplest of dishes in just a few moments whilst also giving you lots of different nutrients in there. So there's a mix of dressings, there's a lovely, you know, like tahini based sauces, but there's also like a raspberry sauce and a chocolate sauce. And I say they, they are like an embellishment that can just make the quickest of foods or quickest of meals taste good.
- [39:01]
Jeff Alex
And is it okay to freeze those sort of things? Would that affect the nutrients or is that okay?
- [39:06]
Karen Lee
Yeah, as long as it's not been frozen beforehand. You have to think about that again. Although one of the benefits of plant based eating is apart from rice, it's actually quite difficult to get food poisoning unless you don't rinse your lettuce leaves, for example. You know, lettuce can be dangerous, but that's because of the water that has been used. How often the pollutants come from the water. But yes, most of the recipes can be frozen and that's, that's really useful because if you've got one, one day when you've got more energy, you can have a cooking session. You cook double the amount and then you can freeze half. So that those days where you're actually, either you're really busy or you haven't got the energy, you can just go to the freezer and get a portion out. And I do that quite a bit actually, just to make sure that we've always got something to eat. But don't forget to label it because otherwise you end up.
- [39:59]
Jeff Alex
Yeah, that's a nightmare.
- [40:00]
Karen Lee
Yeah, yeah, you can end up with anything.
- [40:02]
Jeff Alex
Yeah, no, we have that in our freezer. So I, I think at the beginning I said the book's coming out in 2020. Is, is it out now?
- [40:11]
Karen Lee
Yeah, yeah, no, it came out last, last, last week from when we're recording. So it came out on the 15th of January.
- [40:18]
Jeff Alex
Okay. So available and available in all main book sales. I'm not going to call out the.
- [40:22]
Karen Lee
Obvious one, but available everywhere. Yes, yes, yes. This is great because I had a, my first book I self published, so availability was a little limited, but this time I have a publisher, so it's getting out everywhere. So if you're listening to this in the US for example, then you can definitely get it there and you should be able to get it in other places around the world as well.
- [40:45]
Jeff Alex
And finally, is there anything else you'd like to add? I think we've gone through an awful lot of stuff, but do you have any other things coming up or anything else you'd like to add?
- [40:54]
Karen Lee
Well, the only thing I thought I'd just mention is that it's not just food that's made a big difference for me. Exercise and being outside has become really, really important. And I'm just so grateful that I can move as well as I can because I've been rather wobbly or fatigued from time to time. And I'm, I've always been a really slow runner, really slow, but now I'm even slower. But I love it as it gets me outside and living where I do, not on a day like today, but living where I do, it's all country lanes and I can listen to the birdsong and go along a canal and everything. And because it's 10 years since my diagnosis, I decided to do something a little crazy and I'm doing the Taunton Half Marathon on the 1st of March. So I haven't done a half marathon. I've only had done one before and I don't have a target, a time target as such. My target is to finish it. So that allows me to have a mix of running slowly and walking. But basically I'm just doing it to celebrate the fact that I actually still can. But also I want to raise money for Overcoming Ms. Because I'm so grateful that I found them when I did and you know, it's been a big part of my life and yeah, big part of my life, big part of my career, you know, now working with them as a facilitator as well. So yeah, so maybe in the link you can put the Just Giving page. But also I'll. I'll have it on all my socials as well if you would like to support my stagger around Taunton.
- [42:29]
Jeff Alex
So with that, thank you very much for joining us. But also I'd say do check out the show notes because there'll be links to Karen's book, Karen's socials and as you mentioned, Just Giving page as well. So thank you very, very much for joining us.
- [42:40]
Karen Lee
Karen Lee thank you so much. Thank you for listening to this episode of living well with Ms. Please check out this episode show notes@overcomingms.org podcast. You'll find useful links and bonus information there. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode and please rate and review the show to help others find us. This show is made possible by the Overcoming Ms. Community. Our theme music is by Claire and Nav Dean. Our host is Jeff Alex. Our videos are edited by Lorna Greenwood and I'm the producer, Regina Beach. Have questions or ideas to share, email us@podcastovercomingms.org we'd love to hear from you. The Living well with Ms. Podcast is for private, non commercial use and exists to educate and inspire our community of listeners. We do not offer medical advice. For medical advice, please contact your doctor or other licensed healthcare professional.