Boston Celtics CLUTCH PROBLEM | Jaylen Brown RIGHT about the refs?

Summary

Locked On Celtics - Boston Celtics CLUTCH PROBLEM | Jaylen Brown RIGHT about the refs?

Host: John Karalis
Guest: Tom Westerholm
Date: January 12, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the Celtics' recent controversies and struggles:

• Jaylen Brown’s public frustration with NBA officiating and whether his claims are fair
• The Celtics’ alarming statistical issues in clutch games
• Trade rumors swirling around the roster, particularly about big men and prized young assets
  John Karalis and Tom Westerholm offer seasoned insights, candid skepticism, and characteristically sharp Celtics banter.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Jaylen Brown vs. The Officials (Starts ~03:00)

• Brown's Complaint:
  Jaylen Brown voiced strong displeasure about not getting foul calls, notably earning zero free throws in a recent game, and challenged media/bloggers to pull video receipts.
• Community Reaction:
  Bloggers like Jack Simone and Adam Taylor answered, posting clips for fans to judge.
• Karalis:
  “Jalen does have a point...You can’t honestly tell me he was fouled zero times on shots.” (04:10)
• Is There a Conspiracy?
  Tom and John agree:
  • The Celtics as a team rarely draw fouls; they’re jump-shooters, not drivers or floppers.
  • Against better teams (with better defenders), free throw rates naturally drop.
• Ref Response to Complaints:
  Tom questions if constant complaining is wise:

  “If you are complaining and complaining to the referees, what is that going to do for you? ...I think you’re less likely to get some of these calls.” (08:30) He speculates that JB’s fatigue may make him more sensitive.

Memorable Quotes:

• Karalis:
  “Not all contact is a foul, right? There is contact that's allowed.” (10:50)
• Westerholm:
  “When you complain about the referees at the end of a game, at the end of a loss, it's just kind of...undignified. Just shut up and play basketball.” (17:26)

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2. The Bigger Issue: Consistency and Perception

• Double Standards?
  John channels Celtics’ frustration – calls not being equal on both ends, or between games:

  “If it’s a foul on Monday and it’s a foul on Wednesday, then it should be a foul on Friday and Saturday.” (12:10)

• Fan Conspiracies:
  Both hosts dismiss the idea of league-wide rigging, citing impossibility and the NBA's investment in credibility.

  “If someone in a company is embezzling, is the whole company crooked? Like, no.” – Karalis (18:11)

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3. Celtics' Clutch-Time Crisis (21:00)

• The Stat That Hurts:
  Tom presents the league-worst stat:
  • Celtics net rating in clutch: -16.3
  • Defensive rating in clutch: 128.2 (ranked 30th / dead last in the NBA)
• Interpretation:
  John: The high-level performance and chemistry mask an ongoing issue—late-game execution and defense lag when the game's tight.

  “The clutch is where you still see the baby steps.” – Karalis (22:21)

• Result:
  • Celtics clutch record: now 8–11; 11 of 14 losses were clutch games.
  • John sees this as a learning season, already a success because of young player development.

Memorable Quotes:

• Westerholm:
  "What this season is about is not this season. ...But I mean, I don't know. It's still fun, you know, it's still a fun season.” (24:40)

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4. Trade Rumors & Roster Building (29:00)

Focus: Rumored Celtics pursuit of Clippers center Ivica Zubac—would it be worth trading prized rookie Ugo Gonzalez?

• Scalabrini's Take:
  Brian Scalabrini is adamant the Zubac trade rumors are real.
• Karalis' Analysis:
  Refuses to trade Ugo Gonzalez:

  “I do not want to trade this kid. I'm so high on this. ...I think it's significant.” (31:00) He invokes the risk of giving up a future star for a short-term upgrade.

• Westerholm:
  Warns against letting go of future potential—especially when this isn’t a “go all in” year.

  “Trading Ugo is...you are really taking a big swing on this season and when this season isn’t really a big swing kind of season.” (32:00)

• Tatum's Return Factor:
  If Tatum returns at full form, a trade makes more sense. But both doubt he’ll be 100% and prefer using picks over Ugo as trade assets.

  “I'd rather give up another pick than I would [Ugo].” – Karalis (38:17)

• The Philosophy:
  Don't make an all-in move unless the true championship window is open.

Memorable Quotes:

• Karalis:
  “Call me crazy, I'd rather give up another pick than I would [Ugo].” (38:17)
• Westerholm:
  “Ugo’s a really tough sell for me on Zubac. ...Letting a rookie who's shown this much promise go at this stage, that would be really tough to do.” (37:46)
• Karalis:
  “Not saying Ugo is SGA or Zubac is Paul George...but you bring those sliders way down here, and we’re in that same kind of G League version.” (31:00)

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Lighthearted Moments and Running Jokes

• Several references to adult animation: Rick & Morty, Family Guy, Simpsons. The pair joke about fitting a South Park reference in before the show ends. (39:51)
• Karalis on Ugo Gonzalez:
  “Am I being irrational about Ugo? ...No, it’s the kids who are wrong.” (Simpsons reference, 39:43)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 03:00 — Jaylen Brown & officiating complaints
• 08:30 — Does lobbying referees ever work?
• 10:50 — Not all contact is a foul / perception vs. reality
• 17:26 — Is complaining about refs a “bad look”/undignified?
• 21:00 — Deep dive: Celtics’ crunch-time failures (clutch stat reveals)
• 29:00 — Trade chatter: Zubac, Ugo Gonzalez, “go all in” philosophy
• 31:00 — Risks of trading Ugo, long-term consequences
• 36:11 — Tatum injury/recovery’s impact on trade calculus
• 38:17 — “I’d rather give up another pick than I would Ugo.”

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Conclusion

Karalis and Westerholm build the case that the Celtics' current struggles and narratives—questions about referees, the clutch-time drop-off, roster tinkering—are all best viewed in the context of a transitional but promising year. They make clear: Maintaining perspective and building for the future outweighs impulsive "win-now" moves, and, sometimes, it’s better to enjoy the ride than obsess over short-term failings.

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Next episode: Post-game analysis of Celtics vs. Pacers (preview note: Jaylen Brown and Josh Minott expected to be out)

Transcript

[John Corrales]

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[Tom Westerholm]

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[John Corrales]

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[Tom Westerholm]

That's rough.

[John Corrales]

That's rough. Probably because of the topic. People don't want to people booing you. People think you're just associating you with the ref.

[Tom Westerholm]

So it's a mistake. It's a mistake more and more people are making for sure. Also, I don't know that people. I don't know that Celtics fans are going to love my Jaylen Brown talking about the refs take. So actually, the booze. The boo's probably appropriate. But you know what I've heard what makes you cheer so I. They mean nothing to me.

[John Corrales]

I love that line so much. One of the best. That. That whole thing is one of the best. Rick and Morty. So anyway, I haven't heard anything as far as. In terms of a fine league. Might just wait till Monday to do that. The thing that I think is new, wait till maximum.

[Tom Westerholm]

Maximum eyes are on the situation so that they can be like, we are finding you, Jalen Brown.

[John Corrales]

Jalen, we heard you. Your request has been approved. You have been fine. So the one thing that Jalen said in this whole thing was like, I really wish someone would pull the clips, which to me, I knew would be like a call to the bloggers to pull the clips, because I used to be a blogger back in the day, and that's exactly what I would have done. And a couple of people did. And I forget who it was, but a couple people did. And I'm gonna find out. Just to give proper credit, I know Jack Simone did on. He put some stuff on Twitter. And then I think it's Adam Taylor.

[Tom Westerholm]

Adam Taylor did one, too. Yeah.

[John Corrales]

Yeah, Adam Taylor did one. That's the one I was thinking of. Yeah, Adam. Adam Taylor's one. So the. The conclusion is that Jalen does have a point. And I. I don't think anybody's ever doubted that Jalen has a point when it comes to the official. When he complains, it's generally because, like, look, he went to the line 0 times, and you can't. Can't honestly tell me that he was fouled zero times on shots. So did the refs miss some calls? Absolutely, they missed some calls. And the. The conclusion that the Celtics take fewer free throws against good teams, which was Jalen's like, big kind of thing. Like, okay, that. That's kind of interesting, Tom. I don't know man, you, you tell me. I feel like the Celtics, we already know. Derek White said it after the game. They don't take a lot of free throws. They're. They're a jump shooting team. Jalen attacks and Jalen occasionally gets like double digit free throws, but Derek shoots floaters and jumpers, you know, and when he gets to the rim, it's because he can get to the rim. Peyton Pritchard has developed the turnaround fade away. So when he looks like he's getting to the rim and he turns around, he clears himself. These guys don't attack. They're not sga. They're not like guys who are going in, initiating contact and they're certainly not floppers. Jalen is right about that.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

So they don't shoot a lot of free throws anyway. And you know what happens against the, the better teams. They've better defenders. They, they defend better. They're not like it. I don't know that it's a conspiracy that for some reason that, oh, you don't shoot as many free throws against good teams. I don't understand why, like. Well, it's because they're good.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

And they don't foul as much.

[Tom Westerholm]

No.

[John Corrales]

100.

[Tom Westerholm]

And I, I wanted, I wanted to really get like. We have a lot of our basketball takes end up sounding somewhat similar because we agree on a lot of things. So I'm really curious, like, if you think I'm off base here. Right. What I. My honest take on this is one. I think you're exactly right. I think if there is one Celtic who is likely to get a lot of free throws, it's Jalen. Right. So on nights when Jalen doesn't get fouled that much, the Celtics aren't going to shoot many free throws. So that's, that's the one thing I will say on that. Number two, I think when you look at, when you go back and look at some of the clips where Jalen is really getting on the refs, right. There was one where he got a bucket and he thought that Stefan Castle fouled him. Right. And he really gave it to that rap, like really just was like yelling at him. I think part of me thinks that he thought he was gonna miss it and he was trying to draw the foul and then he made it and didn't draw the foul. And so he was like, he was all keyed up to like argue that he gotten the foul call. And so we really went at the ref because when I went back and watched that play, I didn't really See a lot of a foul, you know, like, I, I watched a couple of them and it was like, I don't know, I didn't think it was that egregious. I, I, I didn't think it was that egregious. And then the other, and to me, the other point about that is, then if you are complaining and complaining to the referees, like, what is that going to do for you? Like, does that really, do you really think that's going to help? Because I see that, and I think to myself, honestly, like, officials are human, too, and I, I, they, I think they generally do the best they can to, like, take that out of it. Right. And to just kind of be, you know, foul and travel and out of bounds calling robots. Right. Like, I think, like, they do their job as best they can, but, like, if you're complaining a lot and if you're really, like, getting on them a lot, I think you're less likely to get some of these calls in some of these games. Now, I know that there are times where a player will complain and then they'll get, like, 13 free throws in the next game. Like, we just saw that. Yeah, like a game ago. So, like, it's not, it's not a hard and fast rule. But I, I guess I just, I don't think that, like, complaining and complaining and complaining about the referees is a super productive way to go about this. And to me, it almost makes me wonder if, like, Jalen is reaching a level of fatigue that is making him a little bit more antsy and aggravated at the refs. Like, I, I don't know. Like, that's, and that's, that is all as speculative as it possibly gets, obviously. But, like, I guess that's, that's several points that I think after, after watching last night's game, I just, I don't know that I think that it's productive. And I also don't know that I think he was necessarily right. I thought the spurs defended really hard and really well, and maybe they missed a couple of calls that could have gone either way. But, yeah, I don't know if, if the spurs aren't foul, Jalen, not many other guys are going to necessarily get to the line either.

[John Corrales]

So I think, I think they're like, there are a lot of different conversations here. I think, I think the retort there, just to channel some of the jail and frustration, is that on the other end, they're not getting the same benefit of the doubt. And some of the calls that the spurs are like, okay, this is not a foul here on the other end, it is a foul.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

And there might have been a couple of those, and I didn't think. It's hard to say, you know, but like, also good.

[Tom Westerholm]

There was one. There was one Derek White one especially that I thought was, like, really egregious, where he. He got what looked a whole lot like a clean block and got whistled for. He. I thought Derek had a pretty tough whistle defensively yesterday.

[John Corrales]

So that. And that's a great point to make because, okay, Victor Wembanyama goes up to block Jaylen Brown and is mostly vertical, and Jalen loses the ball and can sit there and be like, I was fouled. Say, you know, maybe. Maybe you were. And what ends up happening is some of it is the angle. You didn't. Just didn't see an angle. From that angle, it looked like it was clean. It looked like ball first. And, you know, importantly, not all contact is a foul, right? There is contact that's allowed. And so you get Victor Wembanyama doing it. And okay, it's. It may be hard to tell because he's almost 8ft tall and he's jumping and you're like, yeah, he looks like he kind of blocked that. Then you go to the other end and you get Derek White, who's basically my size, like 6 5. And he makes a play, but he is extended and there's not as much body and all you see is arm. And it. You can say, okay, maybe he got the ball, maybe he didn't. You see a lot of arm. You see the follow through, all of that stuff. And so it looks more like a foul. I'm not trying to defend all the officials here, but also, like, I would love to get Jalen in an honest, off the record moment. I wish I was at the beginning of this road trip now, not the end of it. To be like, hey, you went back and looked at this stuff, right? Do you still. Do you still honestly think that these were all files or were you just like, I'm not going to blow up your spot. Just want to know what you actually think, because I feel like half of the stuff that you're complaining about wasn't actually a foul. And what actually is the. The bigger complaint is we're not getting the calls on the other end. We're fouling more than they are. And it's a lot of similar plays. And if you're not, it's fine not to call it on one end, but call. Call it the same way both ways. And Also, I think what he wants is the, he said the inconsistency. He wants it if it's a foul on Monday and it's a foul on Wednesday and there should be a foul on Friday and Saturday. But it's like baseball with an ump with two different, you know, like one guy's calling the outside corner and another guy isn't. You're like, I'm throwing the same pitch. Why can't you two see it the same way? I'm making the same play. I'm driving, I'm initiating. And then, you know, guys are doing these things. X, Y and Z. I got the whistle two games in a row. Now I'm not. Why am I not like, what's, what's the deal there? I think that's his biggest complaint. Let's pick, let's continue that and we'll get into that one stat that really is like, ugh, for the Celtics when we come back. Today's show is brought to you by fanduel. Fridays are feel different. This feels like a Friday. It's a Monday show, actually. But Fridays are different on FanDuel. FanDuel's making them better. With the NBA Happy Hour, you get a new way to kick off the weekend. It's a limited time window where special offers drop right inside the FanDuel app right before this. The action starts every Friday from 6 to 7:30pm Eastern, 6 to 7:30pmt. Eastern. So calibrate your time zones accordingly and log on to the FanDuel app because happy hour always brings something new. Boosts, bonuses, surprises right before tip off, right before the weekend starts and you get a little extra energy there Friday night heading into a big night, big weekend of games. So check it out on the FanDuel app every Friday from 6 to 7:30pm Eastern when you sign in, it will ask you to set a limit, set a budget. Please do that because sometimes it's easy to get carried away. Just set whatever your disposable income. Is it 20 bucks? Is it 200 bucks? Whatever it is, that's the limit that you should set. And if you hit a cold streak, it's okay. FanDuel will step in, stop you. You can refill later on when you get some, you know, paid again or whatever and then go back into it. Then you can go back into NBA Happy Hour, which is only on FanDuel, the official sportsbook partner of the NBA. Locked on.

[Tom Westerholm]

Listeners asked for more and now you can get it with the Everydayer club for just $5 a month. You'll get every episode ad free, plus access to our members only discord Exclusive audio from Locked On Sports Today today, and other perks you won't find anywhere else. If you never miss a show, this is the next step. Join the Everydayer club [e-mail] everydayerclub or visit the link in the show notes. That's lockedonpodcast.com everydayerclub, part of the Locked on podcast network. Your team every day.

[John Corrales]

Thank you for making Lockdown Celtics your first listen every day. Go check out Locked on NBA. Locked on NBA game nights. Two podcasts on the same feed. Game nights seven nights a week covering the entire league. The games of the night. Locked On NBA is gonna get you afternoons, the big stories in the association. So go check that out wherever you found this podcast. All right, let's get back to the conversation here. This time, I hit the right buttons. Jeez, man. I'm like. I'm like, wait a second. This doesn't look right. Anyway, we're starting fre. This is the second half. We're coming out strong. So the final thing when it comes to, like, I. I get it. It's not an invalid point that Jalen is making.

[Tom Westerholm]

He.

[John Corrales]

He does have a point also. I think it is, I would say, 25 to 35% valid, probably 30 to 40%, like, overreaction. And then the rest is just like, now you're off. You're wrong. You know what I mean? Like, there's. There's some kind of, like, emotional feeling. You look at, and you're like, how did I get no free throws? And it's like. But, hey, this is. That's how it goes. It's not the first time in his life he's gotten zero free throws.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

And as we said the other day, like, at some point, you gotta, like, you gotta let it go, because we can't be. We can't be doing this every other game with, like, oh, the refs again, like, all right, yeah, we get it. But, like, what are you gonna do about it? Are you just gonna sit here and complain the whole time or what? Like, that's.

[Tom Westerholm]

That.

[John Corrales]

That's where ultimately it's gonna end up. Like, I don't know how many more times he can do this. And if people go like, yeah, man. Yeah, go get him, Jalen. Like, at some point, people are like, okay, just. Just shut up and play basketball.

[Tom Westerholm]

That's. That is one of my biggest takeaways from this, is like, there. There comes a point where, honestly, I Think. I think it even kind of starts this way. But when you complain about the referees at the end of a game, at the end of a loss, it's just kind of like. I don't know how else to put it, except to say it's a little undignified. It's just kind of like just.

[John Corrales]

Yeah.

[Tom Westerholm]

And when you. And when you really get after it and you really get on them, it starts. You know, he used the word conspiracy. And it's like, that is kind of. Yes, but in kind of a derogatory way. It's got like a little bit of. A little bit of like a hint of like a pizza gate thing going on where it's like, okay, chill out, dude. Like. Yeah, I don't know. I think that's really where I separate from Jalen on this. It's just like. Just check the ball a little bit. I don't know.

[John Corrales]

Yeah, look, I'm sorry. I. I just. People believe in a lot of NBA conspiracies. I get it. I don't. Because the league is so. Is making so much money. Why would they risk losing that credibility? And people go, well, Donagh, okay, Donaghy was one person. And is there another person in the league that might have, like, I don't know. Maybe. It's entirely possible. Right? Yeah, but. But just because one person, like, the. If somebody in a company is embezzling, is the whole company crooked? Like, no. Like, I just think the NBA has. Or sports in general, it's like the number one thing. Fans say, this was rigged. This was fixed. Like, buddy, no, you can't.

[Tom Westerholm]

If.

[John Corrales]

If there's. In 2025, 2026, there. It's impossible to rig something, an entire league, an entire. With. Without it getting out there. Like, it's the best kept secret forever and ever and ever that the entire league is fixing all of this stuff, fixing all the results. You can't possibly be in bed with all of this gambling. And like, it just did a whole fanduel thing. You think fanduel will sit there and be happy to hear like, oh, yeah, well, the Celtics game was fixed. Like, no, you can't. You cannot have that. It has to be on the up and up. Even maybe you can say that. Well, the officials aren't good. And okay, fine, but sure, then. Then, okay, but conspiracies. And they want this and they want that and they want this. They're like, I don't know, a sliver of believability. And then people laugh out of that.

[Tom Westerholm]

Well, and in this Case, Right. The sliver of believability is that the Celtics took two free throws until, like, the final minute. Right? Like, it's like that's. That's where the sliver of. Of believability comes in. But to me, it's like, hey, Jay, I don't know. You already said you don't care about the. Fine. Tell. Tell us the conspiracy that, like.

[John Corrales]

Right, right, right, right.

[Tom Westerholm]

You're already getting fine, man. Like, I don't think. I don't think putting the conspiracy out there is gonna get It. Is gonna make it meaningfully, more or less. Like, maybe it would. I don't know.

[John Corrales]

He did get into some of it on his stream, but whatever. Like, okay, yeah, you gotta watch the.

[Tom Westerholm]

Stream more often, man. I don't know.

[John Corrales]

I don't know. It's. It's hard. Sometimes it's hard. Like, you can't watch the whole thing. I feel like it's kind of like my job to watch more of it, but also, I'm just like, oh, God. Okay.

[Tom Westerholm]

Like.

[John Corrales]

And like, I'm not the. I'm not the target audience anyway, so I'm like, okay, like, some of the things they're talking about, I'm like, I. I. This is not interesting to me at all. Which is fine. It's not supposed to be, right?

[Tom Westerholm]

100.

[John Corrales]

That's 100. Like, that's cool. Whatever. Quickly, let's get into this. This stat. You. You're the one who pulled up the stat. Hit me with this one stat. That really, really sucks for the Celtics.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah, so I was. I was. You know, the broadcast mentioned that the Celtics have a bad clutch record. And I was. I was like, huh, that's kind of weird. Let's take a look at that. So I pulled up the. The. The Celtics net rating in the. In the clutch, which is minus 16.3.

[John Corrales]

Rough.

[Tom Westerholm]

Really rough. Sparked. Their offense is not great. 111.9. You know, they're much better offensively in the. You know, in normal time, the defense is where it's really bad. Their Defensive rating is 128.2 in the clutch, which is. Drum roll number 30 in the NBA. They are. Have literally been the worst defensive team in the clutch in the NBA this season. Not what you want. Not. And like, look, the Celtics defense this year has not been. Certainly not been what it was last year, but in the clutch, it really just. It's. It. It is. It has not been good.

[John Corrales]

Yeah, I think. Look, Celtics have done great this season. And. And Jalen even referenced this the other day he thought it was going to be more baby steps, but they've come together really nicely. But I think the clutch is where you still see the baby steps.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yes.

[John Corrales]

I think that's where. Where the Celtics truly are shows itself. They can get a lot of things going and going well. Right. Like, Jalen could have an amazing first quarter, then Jordan Walsh and Ugo Gonzalez and whomever come in and be great defensively in the second quarter and Sellers can build a lead and then Peyton Pritchard can have a big third quarter and Derek White could have a big fourth quarter and boom, you get yourself a nice 15 point win. You're like, wow, wow, these cells look good. But when it's, you know, the. The gets tight. When things get tight down the stretch and it's like, oh, okay, okay, what do we do? It becomes like, okay, Jalen has to take over and really ISO. And the defense keys in on that. And you like the defense keys in on the things. So it's not surprising. And that's, that's the next, I think, kind of like phase for this team. And it's where they miss Jason the most. And so, yeah, it's not surprising that they're not a great clutch team. What's their record in the clutch? 8 and 8.

[Tom Westerholm]

I believe it's 8 and 11 now.

[John Corrales]

8 and 11. They've lost 14 games. They. 11 of them are clutch games. Yeah, so, so that's. That tells you a lot and that that's. Look, they are surprising. They are a fun team. I've said it already. They, this season to me is already a success. I don't care where it goes from here. They could completely, could lose every game from now on. I don't care. Like, they've already hit on. We already see the, the fringe guys. We already seen like Ugo, we've seen all this. That we've seen Jalen be a number one option. Boom. Love it. Done. Got. I got it. I'm good. I'm gone. Let's, like the rest of the season is gravy. So yeah, they got to figure out the clutch stuff. But also do they, you know, because Jason, Jason's coming back and there's gonna be a new team next year and like that team is gonna have to figure out the clutch thing. If clutch is even, even a problem. Like this year's. This year's team in the moment has to figure it out. But if they don't, I'm not too crazy. I'm not going to go too crazy about It. Because that's not what this team's going to be moving forward.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yep, I, I agree with all of that. I think what they, they need to figure out. If they need to figure it out in terms, in strictly in terms of this year, like, let's. Let's find out what this team could be right. This team could be really good. And, and Jalen is, you know, he's right. Like, the baby steps, like, we've seen. We've seen a lot. We've seen a lot of big steps really, really quickly and that, and that's awesome. And that speaks really, really highly of these guys and, you know, their character as basketball players. Like, it speaks really highly of, you know, them as competitors, all that stuff. But yeah, I mean, I, I think you're 100 right that what this season is about is not this season and, but, but I mean, I don't know. It's still fun, you know, it's still a fun season. And if you, you know, like, I think long term, I think this season is going to be viewed as like, man, you're, you remember 2025, 2026, like, that was.

[John Corrales]

Yeah, it was a fun year.

[Tom Westerholm]

I mean, you know, flawed team, really similar, I think, to like some of those, like the punk rocks era Celtics. Like, that's what we're looking at here. Like, yeah, like, if this team wants to like, make a semi extended run, they want to like make it to the Eastern Conference finals. If they want to push it a little further, who knows, like, all of that stuff is going to come down to like, okay, can you, can you take some, can you start taking some baby steps a little bit faster on some of this other stuff? Is it like 100 necessary? Is it like critical to the future of the franchise? No, but is it important for this year? Yeah, a little bit. If you want to make a little bit of a run, absolutely. That's. That's the next area that needs to kind of get worked on.

[John Corrales]

What they shouldn't do is address that via trade this, this season and be like, okay, our clutch numbers are this. We gotta go get a clutch guy. No, no, no. When we look at these trade rumors, it's gonna be for next year. But. But. Well, we'll see when we come back. Today's show is brought to you by game time during basketball season. There's nothing like being in the building. The energy, the crowd, that first run that gets people to their feet. I am there every night and I see it and it's awesome. I get in for free. I don't need the Game Time app. You. You need it, and I've used it before for other sports. It's easy to use. Straightforward, intuitive. Finding tickets is just a few taps away. It's fast. It's simple. No guesswork. The view from your seat feature. You know, if you've never been to the Garden, you want to see. You're not sure what section 114 means. All right, let's see what it looks like from the seat, and it'll show you. The price that you see is the price you're going to pay. They have features like zone deals that unlock great seats at an even better value. So, NBA games, maybe you're on the road and you want to go to one of these road arenas, or maybe you just want to go to a concert or whatever. It's all there on Game Time. So take the guesswork out of buying tickets by downloading the Game Time app. Create an account, use the code. Locked on NBA. That's L, O, C, K, E, D. Locked on NBA for $20 off your first purchase. Download the GameTime app today and get in on the action.

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[John Corrales]

Making Lockdown Celtics your first listen every day. The number one Celtics podcast in the world on the Lockdown Podcast Network. The number one sports podcast network on the world. You're in everyday are now join the everyday club. It's five bucks a month. It gets you ad free audio on any podcasting app, all the major ones. It gets you access to our Discord server. It gets you merchandise drops. So go check it out@lockdown celtics.supercast.com lockdownceltics supercast.com 5 bucks a month or if you want to pay for the year up front, $50 for the year. So you save on a couple of months there. Tom Trade rumors are starting to circulate mostly around Biggs. The the one that is is kind of has been floating out there. Like Brian Scalabrini before the Denver game was like very serious about no the Avitza Zubac talk is like real. He was saying, we know it's going to be Simons. It's just a matter of how many picks, young wings, all of that stuff. Which to me, okay, two first round picks. My interpretation of that is is it going to be Jordan Walsh, is it going to be Hugo Gonzalez to get Zubach? That is not my reporting. It's my guess if just going by what Scal is saying when I say like Scal like multiple times, like people were kind of like brushing it off and he was like, no, like we should take this seriously. And I like that you did a.

[Tom Westerholm]

Scowl voice for that.

[John Corrales]

Yeah, like, no, he was, he was like, you know, scout series because he like gets up and like leans into.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yes.

[John Corrales]

And he was, he was leaning like no, no, no, no, no. So anyway, I think, I think like obviously Zubotch would be a great get. Yeah, I do not want to trade Ugo Gonzalez. I do not want to trade this kid. I'm so high on this. Like, I'm not going to say it's like the Shea Gilgamesh Alexander inclusion in the Paul George trade, but whatever step down from Paul George Vita Zubac is is that same step down that from Sesga that Ugo is. And I think it's significant. But like you, you bring those sliders way down here and we're in that same kind of like, you know, it's like the G League version of. But. But you know what I mean. Like, I do.

[Tom Westerholm]

I know what you mean. I know exactly what you mean.

[John Corrales]

Blow up in Your face.

[Tom Westerholm]

I know exactly what you mean, but it is hilarious to hear you say, listen, I'm not gonna say the trading Hugo Gonzalez is trading a back to future, back to back MVP award winner. I'm not going to say that. I'm not, I'm not gonna say it.

[John Corrales]

And I didn't say that. And I didn't, I didn't say that.

[Tom Westerholm]

Say it.

[John Corrales]

But, but however, not, not saying no.

[Tom Westerholm]

No, you're literally not saying it. No, I, I, I know exactly what you mean. And, and I, I think, I think you're right. I mean, I, I, it's funny, man. I, I would be really hesitant to do that because I think trading Ugo is, would be kind of doing what we were just saying, right? Where it's like, you are like really taking a big swing on this season and like, when this season isn't really a big swing kind of season.

[John Corrales]

Maybe it is.

[Tom Westerholm]

Maybe, like, look, if you think that Zubac is the thing that makes you the no questions asked favored in the Eastern Conference, and if you think that, okay, but I also think that, like, you go get Zubac and you trade Ugo Gonzalez and Anthony Simons, like, yeah, Anthony Simons is not nothing. He's a, he's a pretty good player. Like, that's, that, that's, those, that's two significant wing guys, you know, like guys who can play on the perimeter going out the door for, you know, for a center, which you need. But like, Nemi's been pretty good. And for this, I'm not saying, again, I'm, you and I have both said, I'm not saying that Neemi is the starting center on a future championship team, but what I am saying is, like, he's been pretty good for this season. And if what we think this season is, is a punk rock Celtic season. Right. Neemi's great for that. Like an Ugo is great for the future. So that's a, that's a, that's a really tough needle to thread for me.

[John Corrales]

So the only way that you think you got to get Zubox for this season, it's that you think not only is Jason Tatum coming back, you think Jason Tatum's going to be Jason Tatum.

[Tom Westerholm]

Right?

[John Corrales]

Right. And that's, that's where, like, I think Jason Tatum's coming back.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yes.

[John Corrales]

But I don't, I don't expect him to be Jason Tatum. Like, I, I've spent so much time saying Jason Tatum is coming back, and now that people are coming around to it, I'm like, but wait A second. Don't expect, you know, jt MVP candidate. Like, I'm, I'm, I'm saying Jason tames coming back so he can rehab and get himself right. So like, my number one thing for if he comes back is like, great. He doesn't have to figure all this stuff out at the beginning of next season. That's the whole reason why I'm thinking he can come back now. However.

[Tom Westerholm]

But.

[John Corrales]

If the, if Brad Stevens looking at him and it's like, okay, you know what he is, he is himself and he's gonna need, you know, it's. I think today, yesterday, eight months since the surgery. I forget. Well, while I'm talking, if you want to look at what day it was that he had the surgery, it. But we're like right at the eight month mark and the nine, like eight to nine months is right there for him to come back and that like if he starts, if the comeback stuff starts talking like the starts getting hot now. February, you, if you get February, you get March to like get yourself right. It's not out of the question that by April, Tatum starts to look like Tatum again.

[Tom Westerholm]

You're like.

[John Corrales]

The, hey, you're sending Ugo out and Simons and his two like really important guys for this team now and you're only getting one back. Well, if you're getting two back by getting Jason Tatum and you're like, okay, you. It sucks that you're trading Ugo Gonzalez because I think he's going to be a good player and Simon's, you know, it is what it is. Then I, then that, that's when you're like, okay, if they, if they know, if they have like that I know Jason's coming back and he will be himself. That that's going to be the. What the hell, why not? Let's go for it now. And hey, even if this run doesn't materialize, you have a playoff run now with Tatum and Brown and Zoo and next year you can hit the ground running with like, okay, guys, we just hit a taste of it. Let's go be serious about this. So that, that would be the, the kind of like the counterpoint of like, hey, you got to give up something to get something for sure.

[Tom Westerholm]

And look, I mean to your answer your question, when people are you, when people are presumably listening to this, tomorrow will be eight months to the day. So yeah, I, I think, listen, I, I think the thing about Zubots, right, is that he's not a. The thing to remember about him. And you're right. I Mean, the thing to remember about Zubac is that he's not a stop gap center, right? Like, he's good. He is. You get him, you're getting a good center. He's not just like, we got to get somebody now. We got to get somebody in the door. It's like, if there's an opportunity there, I mean, you certainly have to consider it. I think Ugo, it. Ugo's a really tough sell for me on Zubach. I. I have a really hard time with that one. You're right. You're right. Like, if. If Brad thinks that Tatum. I am also operating completely under the assumption that we are get. Not getting 100% Tatum this season. That's just like, that's fair. Yeah, it's just rational, right? Like, I mean, listen, we all saw. We all saw Gordon Hayward, and I'm not saying it's the same thing, but. At all, by any means. At all, at all, at all. Knocking on wood. I just knocked Corrales out of his chair. I'm knocking on wood. We're not talking about that, but we all saw how much, like, just as an injury. From an injury perspective, right?

[John Corrales]

It.

[Tom Westerholm]

It takes a while. It just. It just does. It's hard to come back to playing NBA basketball after you've had a really significant injury. And listen, Tatum defies expectations constantly.

[John Corrales]

He's.

[Tom Westerholm]

He is quite literally built different, right? He is a very different guy from even the average NBA player. So maybe. But I think just kind of logically, rationally, I am not operating under the assumption that he is going to be back to 100 this season. And if that's not the case, I have a really, really hard time letting Ugo Gonzalez go. Letting a. A rookie who's shown this much promise go at this stage, that would be really tough to do.

[John Corrales]

Look, I. Call me crazy. I'd rather give up another pick than I would too.

[Tom Westerholm]

No, I am completely on the same page, you know?

[John Corrales]

Yeah, it's. To me, it's Zubot for Simons, two firsts and Jordan Walsh take it. Go. You know, have go.

[Tom Westerholm]

I mean, I'm higher on Jordan Walsh than you are, and I'm still just like, yeah, no, fair enough. I get it. Like, is what it is.

[John Corrales]

If they say we want Ugo, you know, I'd be like, look, no, you take Jordan in three firsts and like, that's. That's how much I think of Ugo. Like, we'll give you another first. We'll give you a swap. How about that? We'll give You a swap in four years or whatever. And like that. That would be presumably when, like, hey, maybe they're not so good. Like, so what do you. We think? What do we think about that? Like that I would rather do that. I'd rather delay the rebuild a year because I think Ugo's that good.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

And like that. That's. That's how much I. I think of them. So.

[Tom Westerholm]

Right. I mean, it's like the old. It's like the old Family Guy bit where it's like, hey, a pick could be anything. It could be Ugo Gonzalez. Right, Right.

[John Corrales]

Yes. So I hope they take. I hope they take the pick. Yeah. While we're sitting here with the new Gonzalez, be like, I don't know. It does it. I mean, I. Being irrational. I always have to ask myself, am I being irrational about Ugo? And then I gotta tell myself, no, it's the kids who are wrong. All right.

[Tom Westerholm]

How many adult animation references can we fit into one podcast?

[John Corrales]

We got the big ones. We got Rick and Morty. We got Family Guy. We got the Simpsons. Yeah, we like. Is there a South park reference that. That we can get in there before we go?

[Tom Westerholm]

No, there should be, but I don't.

[John Corrales]

I don't watch it enough. It's the one that I want to watch. Yeah, like smiling. Smiling Friends doesn't have any references like that. I don't know if you watch Smiling Friends.

[Tom Westerholm]

I don't know.

[John Corrales]

Oh, my God. Watch Smiling Friends.

[Tom Westerholm]

Okay.

[John Corrales]

Yeah, watch Smiling friends. It's like 10 minutes per episode. Very bingeable. It's just. I'm not gonna say that, you know. Well, you know, edibles are encouraged when you're watching that, but it does. It might help the experience anyway, so, Tom, thank you very much. We're gonna leave it there. I'm gonna stop. All right, man, I'll see you later. Thank you, man. I do appreciate. Tom. We're just having some fun here at the 38 minute mark. Thank you for listening. Thank you for watching. Hope you enjoyed the show. Next podcast is post Pacers. Jalen Brown does not look like he's going to play in that game. Josh Minot will not play in that game. But we'll see how it goes. It's the Pacers. They're not good and so they should still win. Free podcast all week long. I will be in Atlanta for Celtics Hawks. So hopefully, post game, there will be a post game podcast there. Bonus podcast, hopefully from State Farm Arena. So check that out. Make sure you're subscribed. Watch the show on YouTube. Get in there and then I would love it if you shared the podcast. Tell everybody they should be listening to and watching the Lockdown Celtics podcast here on the Lockdown Podcast Network. It's your team Every day. A dream is a wish your heart. Step aboard a Disney cruise and discover where memories meet adventure, where escape meets imagination, where magic meets the sea. Disney Cruise Line Edible arranges effortless joy all year with same day and next day delivery or local pickup. Edible makes gifting simple fresh arrangements, dessert boards and baked treats for birthdays, thank yous or just because. [e-mail] or your local store. New year same extra value meals at McDonald's now get a savory sausage McMuffin with egg plus hash browns and a small coffee for just $5 for a limited time only persons and vary prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska and California. And for delivery.