Boston Celtics ROTATION SHUFFLE - Jordan Walsh, Josh Minott, Hugo Gonzalez shifting roles

Summary

Locked On Celtics Podcast Summary

Episode: Boston Celtics ROTATION SHUFFLE - Jordan Walsh, Josh Minott, Hugo Gonzalez shifting roles
Date: January 1, 2026
Host: John Karalis
Guest: Tom Westerholm

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the shifting wing/forward rotation for the Boston Celtics, focusing especially on the recent roles (and role reversals) of Jordan Walsh, Josh Minott, Hugo (Ugo) Gonzalez, and the surprising impact of center Luca Garza. John Karalis and Tom Westerholm parse through why familiar faces are out of the rotation, why Joe Mazzulla keeps changing things up, what it means for the roster both this season and beyond, and ultimately try to figure out the “definitive plan” for Boston’s young, athletic wings.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Celtics’ Ever-Changing Rotation (03:33–04:46)

• The hosts begin by noting the unpredictable nature of Joe Mazzulla’s rotation decisions, especially concerning Minott, Walsh, and Gonzalez.
• Karalis references a fan tweet:

  “Every time you think you have the answers, I change the question. And that’s very Joe Mazzulla.”
  (John Karalis, 04:41)

Notable Quote

"It feels like as soon as we say, 'This is the rotation now,' Joe Mazzulla goes, 'Nope,' and changes things.”
— John Karalis (04:13)

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2. What Happened to Josh Minott? (04:46–07:18)

• Minott started strong this season, but has suddenly faded out of the lineup, despite being an ideal "Mazzulla guy"—high effort, coachable, tough.
• The hosts speculate coaching staff may think Minott “isn’t getting it”—either on the rotations, defensive concepts, or how to be more than a stopgap small-ball center.
• The rise of Luca Garza (as a more traditional center) seems to be a determining factor, pushing Minott out.

Notable Quote

"How is this guy not only not starting—how is this guy not playing 48 minutes a game for Mazzulla? He loves that kind of crap."
— Tom Westerholm (05:11)

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3. Garza’s Big Effort and Aesthetic Impact (07:02–08:43)

• Garza gets praised for max effort, infectious energy, and relentless rebounding—fitting the need with the Celtics' ongoing rebounding struggles.
• The hosts joke about how he always looks like he was "playing in a sauna," underscoring the perception of all-out hustle.

Notable Quote

"Luca Garza makes it look hard. He just makes it look like, oh my God, is he pulling a tractor trailer while also trying to rebound?"
— John Karalis (08:25)

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4. Declining Defensive Impact: Jordan Walsh’s Recent Struggles (09:00–12:56)

• Walsh started the season as a defensive menace, notching multiple steals per game, but has now slumped (only one steal in his last five games).
• The hosts analyze how opponents may be adjusting—Walsh is no longer a surprise, making his job tougher.
• There's a notable sense of frustration and uncertainty about why neither Minott nor Walsh is dominating the available “big wing” minutes.

Notable Quote

"Why isn’t it just 48 minutes of long, rangy, big wing who can really defend and has a questionable jump shot that happened to be hitting this year? They’re both the same type of player—so yeah, why not both?"
— John Karalis (11:08)

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5. Pressure and Competition Among the Young Wings (16:50–22:14)

• With multiple young wings (Walsh, Minott, Gonzalez) on the roster, not all can be part of the long-term future—roster crunch looms as Celtics reload for next season.
• The rotation battles are a mental test as much as a physical one, and the hosts suggest the constant competition is ramping up pressure.
• Joe Missoula’s approach is meritocratic and unsentimental—he’ll give minutes to whoever fits in the moment, regardless of pecking order or contract status.

Notable Quote

“If you fall out of the rotation, Joe Mazzulla might just literally bury you under TD Garden and you’ll never be seen again.”
— Tom Westerholm (18:12)

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6. What’s Driving Current Playing Time Decisions? (22:39–25:32)

• The Celtics are willing to tolerate being bad at defensive rebounding, but not the worst—lineups have to make up for it with offensive rebounding and forcing turnovers.
• Garza earns his time because his relentless crashing addresses this specific team need, even if he's not a long-term solution.
• The small-ball lineups (with Minott at center) have failed the rebounding test, leading to less time for Minott.

Notable Quote

“That small lineup with Josh at center—so God awful at rebounding. ... The worst of the worst ... And they’re not doing the other things.”
— John Karalis (22:14)

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7. The Big Picture: Who Fits Around Tatum & Brown Next Year? (25:32–32:11)

• The hosts agree that while Garza helps fill a short-term need, he’s probably not in the long-term plans—the future (next to Tatum & Brown) is what really matters.
• Ugo Gonzalez is highlighted as the young player with the most upside and inside track—he’s already making the team “so much better” statistically (per Cleaning The Glass, +30 expected wins impact; 28:08).
• There’s recognition that only one (maybe two) of the Minott/Walsh/Garza group will survive next year’s roster shuffle, and that Ugo is likely “the guy” moving forward.

Notable Quote

“It might just be as simple as: Hey, Celtics have this 19-year-old kid who is ready to win now and who is only getting better and who is going to help you win later next year, when winning all of a sudden becomes ... a much bigger priority.”
— Tom Westerholm (28:06)

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8. The Missoula Shuffle: Keeping Players on Their Toes (32:11–33:43)

• Missoula rotates young players in and out not just for evaluation but as a motivational tactic—after a spell out of the lineup, players tend to return with more energy and urgency.
• The discussion ends with the belief that constant competition and a “prove-it” atmosphere are healthy, especially while the team wants maximum effort and energy from its role players.

Notable Quote

“If a guy doesn’t have it, all right, you’re out for, like, three weeks. See ya. ... When you come back in, I need to see you everywhere, all at once, all the time. I need to see you flying.”
— Tom Westerholm (33:04)

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Memorable Moments

• Luca Garza "Looks Like He Played In a Sauna": Visual, humorous banter about Garza’s sweat-drenched effort (07:07, 08:25).
• Jordan Walsh’s Defensive Reputation Change: From “menace” to a player now on scouting reports—loss of element of surprise (10:54–12:56).
• Data Drop: Ugo Gonzalez’s “plus 30” impact on expected wins—statistical evidence of his readiness and upside (28:03–28:08).

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:33 – Introduction to the Celtics’ shifting rotation
• 04:46 – Why is Josh Minott out?
• 07:02 – Luca Garza’s effort and impact
• 09:00 – Jordan Walsh’s defensive decline
• 16:50 – Young wings and future roster crunch
• 18:12 – Pressure in the rotation (“bury you under TD Garden”)
• 22:39 – Rebounding struggles shaping rotation
• 25:32 – Fitting next season’s puzzle around Tatum & Brown
• 28:03 – Ugo Gonzalez’s advanced stats (“plus 30”)
• 32:11 – Missoula’s rotation as motivation

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Conclusion

John Karalis and Tom Westerholm conclude that this season is about sorting out which young wings can take advantage of their opportunity, knowing not all will survive the next roster overhaul. Ugo Gonzalez is clearly emerging as “the guy” for the future, while Minott and Walsh are locked in a constant state of prove-it competition, cycling through the rotation as Joe Missoula relentlessly searches for the right mix.

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For Celtics fans: If you’re trying to figure out why the rotation keeps changing, who will be part of the future, and why hustle stats are driving current lineup decisions, this episode breaks down the philosophy behind Boston’s wing roulette—and who’s most likely to claim that seat next to Tatum and Brown in the years to come.

Transcript

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[John Corrales]

We figure out why Josh Minot isn't playing, what Joe Missoula is trying to do with Jordan Walsh, Minot and Ugo Gonzalez and Luca Garza and all that mess. What it means for now and what it means for the future. Definitive plan right now in the Locked on Celtics podcast.

[Tom Westerholm]

Huh? Yup, yup.

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[John Corrales]

Who else could it be? What they gonna say now screaming like J.T.

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Corralis recap the madness every game, every practice.

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Prime time.

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[John Corrales]

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[Tom Westerholm]

Hey there.

[John Corrales]

Welcome back to the Lockdown Celtics podcast right here on the Lockdown Podcast network where it is your team every day. Your team is the Boston Celtics and I talk about them Monday through Friday plus bonus podcasts when they play on the weekends. And this is January now. Happy New Year. They play on a ton of Fridays and Saturdays so there is going to be a ton of extra podcasts for you. They're all going to be free. They're available everywhere. So make sure you're subscribed. Watch the show on YouTube. Get into the comments section. Share your thoughts with me. If you're new to the show, I'm John Corrales, beat writer for Boston Sports Journal. I've been covering this team for about 20 years now, and I've been doing this podcast for 10, and I've written a couple of books about this team. So I love talking about the Boston Celtics. Today. We're talking about the Wings, these, you know, the Minot, Walsh, Gonzalez triumvirate, what Luca Garza has to do with all of that. And we're going to get to a definitive plan in the third segment, we'll figure out all of that stuff in. In the first and second segments. The third segment, we hit on it. I think we landed on what all of this means, so I think it's going to be a fun show. And joining me to talk about all of this, as always, Tom.

[Tom Westerholm]

Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

[John Corrales]

Do it. My box is too small. I want to do the old, yeah, Scott hall. Like, wow. But I can't get my arms to do the box thing on. On YouTube. For people who are listening, they're just like, stop referencing only the video stuff. We can't see what you're doing. So. And I. I want to say, well, close your eyes and imagine. But I'm sure a lot of people are driving, and so please don't close your eyes when you're driving. Yeah.

[Tom Westerholm]

And please don't watch the YouTube while you're driving.

[John Corrales]

Oh, don't watch the YouTube while you drive. All of that stuff is. Yes. All of that stuff. So. All right, so the Celtics. I talked about this at the end of the podcast last night, but people don't always make it to the end of the podcast, so. And I think it's worth a bigger discussion.

[Tom Westerholm]

This.

[John Corrales]

This the way I put it, Tom, and you tell me. It feels like we're like, okay, well, I guess Josh Minot's out of the rotation now. And that means who goes in? And it means Josh is the starter. And that's just how it is now. As soon as we say that's how it is now, Joe Masula goes, nope and changes things. So it's funny. Someone tweeted at me. It was like, the old Roddy Piper clip is like. Like, every time you think you have the answers, I change the question. And that's very Joe Missoul. I think Joe Missoul is about to change the question on us.

[Tom Westerholm]

I mean, I could see it. I I think, like, it is. I. I think if we wanted to start with the Minot thing, it is fascinating that he's just not. Not part of things really.

[John Corrales]

Like we did podcast. Is he too. Is he gonna be too expensive?

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah. I mean, smart people were having that conversation. Right. Like, he was. He's. He started off the year really, really well, I think, you know, there were always the questions like, is the shot real? Is this is. You know, because. Not that. Not that he was a bad shooter previously, but he wasn't. You know, he was. He was certainly on a bit of a hot streak at the start of the season.

[John Corrales]

Yes.

[Tom Westerholm]

Just, you know, looking at his. At his profile as a player, it's. I mean, look, wondering whether he could outprice himself out of where Boston would be comfortable paying, wondering if he would do that was not by any means crazy. Like. Like NBA teams will. Will trip and fall over themselves to find a player with Josh Minot's measurables and who can. You know, who. Who plays as hard as Josh Minot does. It's. I think that's one of the things that's bizarre to me about him falling out of the rotation is this is a guy who plays really hard, and it's a guy who. Who is very coachable. Like, Joe Missoula gets on him all the time, and Minot's just like, yeah, all right, bet. Yell at me some more. I. I want to hear all of it. And it's like, I mean, how is this guy not. Not only not starting, how is this guy not playing 48 minutes a game for Missoula? He loves that kind of crap.

[John Corrales]

Yeah, that. So it. That's a good question. It's a good place to take this conversation because it is like, okay, so why. Yeah. And my only thing is that he's not getting something. He's not getting it. He's not getting certain rotations. He's not picking up what. What they need him to do. And I think it's one of those. Maybe we could have seen it coming because they were using him as the small ball center. And it's like that felt like now, in retrospect, you say, well, was that more out of necessity? Like, the Luca Garza thing might be the. The biggest kind of change in all of this. They went back to Luca Garza.

[Tom Westerholm]

Right.

[John Corrales]

He's been great. And so instead of ironically, for much.

[Tom Westerholm]

The same reason that Josh Minot is great, which is he plays as hard as he possibly can at all times.

[John Corrales]

Yep. Yep. Looks like he played in the sauna. That's the. That's the joke. I think Bobby Krivitzki is the one who. Who said that to me, and I'm gonna latch on to that. And just every time he plays, it looks right. It does.

[Tom Westerholm]

He looks like.

[John Corrales]

I don't know what it is, but it seems like whatever game Luca Garza is playing, he comes out of it looking like he's played twice as hard or in a place that's twice as hot. He just has this aesthetic of, like, man, that dude is out there working like crazy.

[Tom Westerholm]

Listen, he's from Minneapolis. Like, if you grow up in Minnesota, think he's from Minneapolis, right? That's right. Like, if I think that. So I know. I know he played pro ams in Minneapolis, and he's got kind of a, you know, Minnesota type look about him, per se. But the. If I. If I'm right and he's from Minnesota, everywhere else you go is much warmer, you know, so.

[John Corrales]

Yeah. Born in Washington, D.C. oh. But, like, I don't know. I gotta see where he grew up, but.

[Tom Westerholm]

So he went to college in Iowa. Iowa is where I'm from. And it is cold.

[John Corrales]

Yeah. So he's like the opposite of, like, Jalen Brown. Jalen Brown makes it look easy. Jalen Brown works like crazy. And you look at him, you're like, man, he's barely breaking a sweat. Like, he. He makes it look easy.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

Luca Garza makes it look hard. He just makes it look like, oh, my God, is he. Is he pulling a tractor trailer while also trying to rebound? And sometimes he runs like he is.

[Tom Westerholm]

But anyway, played college ball in Iowa. That. He might have done that before.

[John Corrales]

He might have. That's. Feels like an Iowa thing to do.

[Tom Westerholm]

It does.

[John Corrales]

So he's back. And that means Josh, like those small ball. We haven't seen any of those. And we were starting to have that discussion about, are the small ball lineups really. Did we reach their. Their end? Do we reach the conclusion of that story? And maybe that's it. Maybe that. Maybe Josh as the small ball center was fine in some instances, but it just wasn't doing the trick. It wasn't there. It wasn't what it was supposed to be defensively. And because of that, they needed to go to a different route. And a lot of the minutes that Josh was getting now, those are the ones that went away. But still, there's no. There's no wing minutes out there for him, especially since Jordan Walsh has also kind of slipped a little bit. Like, I'm. I'm really fascinated by all of this. I mentioned the stat on the, on the show yesterday. Jordan went nine straight games with at least one steal. A few games with three, many games with multiple. Yeah, and then in his last five, he's had one total in his last five. So he went from like poking the ball free and getting into passing lanes and being a menace to the point where I was like, geez, if he's going to keep doing this, this often, he needs to be like learning some point guard skills because the one steal that he got in these past five games, he immediately turned it back over with an offensive file.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah, yeah.

[John Corrales]

So if, if he's starting to slip and he only played 13 minutes and change in the, in this last game, wouldn't Josh be kind of like. I thought they were interchangeable. I thought they were the, both the long rangy wings and they could interchange and you could still have Ugo in there. But if I, I think maybe the thing I'm most confused about is why isn't it just 48 minutes of long rangy big wing who can, who can really defend and has had a questionable jump shot that happened to be hitting this year. They're both the same type of player, so yeah, why not both?

[Tom Westerholm]

I don't know. I, I, I, I, like that's what I don't know. I, I, it is, it is odd. The Walsh is, I don't want to call it a slip. I think, I think part of the problem with, with, for Walsh is that when he, when he, when he started off, right, it, it was like, what is happening? What, who is this guy? Why, why is there this, this, you know, menace? Why are all these, all these arms, they're so long. Why are they in my space, right? You're the opponent, you're trying to dribble. It's like, no, Jordan Walsh is not going to let you do that. He's, he's just a menace defensively. And then you have, you know, Austin Reeves says, hey, this guy could be an all defense player, right? You got like people started to notice him, people started to be more aware of him and you know, a little bit of an element of surprise thing, right? Like, like he's on scouting reports now. He's not just some guy who was in the G league last year. Like he's, he's somebody that, you know, okay, we've game planned for this guy. You know, I think maybe just don't dribble the ball around him as much. And you know, if you do that, like I Don't know. You can cut out some of the problem. Right. And I, you know, you can, you can find ways to get him off your primary ball handlers. And, and when you do that, I mean, you do negate some of the good stuff with Jordan Walsh, because so much of the good stuff was just that he was taller, longer arm. Avery Bradley. Right. Like that. That was so much of what made him good. And, you know, it's, it's something that he's going to have to adjust to, too. It's something they're all going to have to adjust to. But it is, it is weird that. I don't know, it's. It's been such an odd season with those three. Like, especially, I mean, Ugo, it's a little bit less weird. It's just like, oh, there's this really promising guy in there. But, like, with Minot and Walsh, there. There has been this element of, like, there's something that's hard to pin down about both their success and then their subsequent winding down within the, within the rotation.

[John Corrales]

It's just, I think maybe it just that no one's good enough. No one's good enough to take advantage of these. The, the opportunity. They're, they're still so high on Walsh.

[Tom Westerholm]

That I don't want to quite go there. Like, I, I don't. I, I, I, I'm, like, I'm, I'm fully bought in on Jordan Walsh Island. Like, so I don't want to see my property value dip. So I don't, like, I don't like these, these words that you're saying, but.

[John Corrales]

All right, well, I'm gonna keep saying them when we come back because there's. There. I think that is part of what we're talking about here. Today's show is brought to you during basketball season. We know there's nothing like being in the building. If you haven't been in the building, you are missing out energy. The crowd is crazy. A big run where the crowd is going nuts, especially at TD Garden. If you haven't been there, man, it is absolutely electric in there. If you haven't been to a game at TD Garden, you want to go. You want to take a trip to Boston. Use the Game Time app to get your tickets. It gives you the advantage. It makes it super easy to score amazing tickets. It's fast, it's simple. You take the guesswork out of everything. I have used Game Time. It's a product that I have used multiple times to buy tickets to sporting events. It's straightforward it's intuitive. You can see the view from your seat as soon as you click on what tickets it shows you what you're going to see. Very important. The price that you see is the price that you're going to pay. Very important. If you want to shop for good deals, use the zone deals. That unlocks great seats at an even better value. So NBA games, but also maybe, you know, football playoffs, you want to get into a playoff game. Concerts, theater, show, it's all on there. So take the guesswork out of buying tickets with gametime. Download the game time map, create an account, use the code Locked on NBA that's Locked on NBA L O C K EE D for $20 off your first purchase. Download the GameTime app today and get in on the action.

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[John Corrales]

Thank you for making Lockdown Celtics your first listen every day. It's the number one Celtics podcast on the number one sports podcast network. I want to thank you so much for doing that. Now you want to go up a level? Check out the new Everydayer Club. You get access to ad free audio which is compatible with your Apple podcast, Spotify. You don't have to, you don't have to download a different app or anything like that. You get access to the Every Dare Club Discord server, which is a group chat as well. So you get that for, for games and merchandise drops. It's all@lockdown celtics.supercast.com Five bucks a month, 50 bucks for the year. So you can save a little bit if you pay it all up front. So check it out. Locked on celtics.supercast.com all right, let's get back into the conversation with Tom Westerholm here. If one of these guys was good enough, Tom, we wouldn't be having this conversation. And maybe they're not good enough yet. Maybe they will be. They're young. They're both young guys. Ugo Gonzalez is young. I feel like Ugo is the one with the inside track. He's the guy that he. When I look at him, I can tell he's special. I've gushed about him. We've done a whole episode about Ugo with the Christmas Carol theme. My feelings about Ugo have been made clear. So even if he's in and out of this mix this season, I'm not worried about that. I think he's part of the future.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

Walsh and Minot. You can't have all of these guys as part of the future. Like, this is not a team where, as much as we like to fall in love with the group that's in front of us, and they are a likable group, this is a likable bunch of guys. We can't just say, oh, you just gotta plug Jason Tatum in here and boom, you're ready. Like, no, no, no, no, no, no. You gotta make changes, and that means you gotta open up roster spots, which means one of these guys is probably gone next year. Minot or Walsh or Garza, like, all of these guys aren't coming back.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

So I guess the. Is it pressure, do you think, for anybody to. To be like, oh, my God, like. Like, Jordan is fouling a lot, and now he's getting frustrated. Do you think there's pressure on that? Do you think Minot is feeling pressure? Like, I think. I think there could be a little something here where there's a. You know, because. Because no one's able to take control. Joe. Joe Missoula has to go with a bunch of different directions, and you're gonna have, like, three DMPs, and then you're have three starts and you have DMPs again. I. I don't know. I. I just think mentally this is just all a mental thing is basically where I'm getting at.

[Tom Westerholm]

Well, I mean, there's. There's clearly pressure in some degree.

[John Corrales]

Right.

[Tom Westerholm]

Because if you're. If you're looking up and down the Celtics roster, it's like, if you fall out of the rotation, like, Joe Missoula might just literally bury you under TD Garden and you'll never be seen again. Like, we haven't seen Chris Boucher in quite some time. Like, that dude is, like, really not in the rotation. And if you're Josh Minot, I mean, especially after the way you started the season and all the starts you got and all that, it would be a shame. I mean, I. I feel like if you get an opportunity, you better play well, because there are a lot of wings that. If you're Minot, there's a lot of guys who Are, like, absolutely qualified to potentially play ahead of you. And Joe Missoula isn't gonna just give you minutes because it's your turn. Like, he doesn't. He doesn't do that. You know, like, one of the things that's interesting, right, is you look up and down this roster, and it's like, okay, so not only do Minot and Walsh have each other to deal with, they also have Baylor Shireman, who plays, you know, actual minutes. They also have Sam Houser, who, of course, is going to play actual minutes. These are all guys at the wing position that they are also competing for with minutes. And obviously, that all comes with the knowledge that, okay, 37ish, you know, minutes a game are going directly to Jaylen Brown, right? And, you know, in a pinch, the Celtics could very easily, like, play Derrick White up right, have, like, Peyton Pritchard the one, Derrick White, the two. I mean, there's nothing stopping them from trying to line up with three guards, right? There are a lot of options that this. This group could do. So, you know, is there pressure? Yeah, absolutely. I think there is, because you could just get buried. Like, there's nothing guaranteeing you any playing time on this roster because there are so many wings and so many different kind of versatile options there.

[John Corrales]

I'm. I agree with you. Like, there's. There's the. There. There's this feeling of, like, well, Joe. Joe sees something of, okay, this is what the game needs. All right? It's. It's Luca Garza now. It's. It's whomever, and he doesn't care who it is. Like, it could. It could be Chris Buet, and he did dip into that once fairly recently, and it didn't work. And then Buet was kind of, like, buried again.

[Tom Westerholm]

That's what I mean. That's what I mean. Like, you better. You got his own window. You better hit.

[John Corrales]

It's. I think, for me, like, it's part of the. The. Like, it's actually part of the good coaching job that he's done, that all of these guys who fall out of the rotation then jump back into the rotation are, like, ready to go for the most part. Except for Boucher. Like, Luca Garza was out. We talked about, like, he was done, and I probably said two, three times in his stretch of DNPs, like, yeah, he's.

[Tom Westerholm]

He's.

[John Corrales]

He looks like he. You know, he isn't grasping things. He's still a problem defensively and so on and so forth. Then he comes in, and he just dominates the offensive class. And plays with an effort and an energy that is infectious and. And changes games. And you know what? Maybe. Maybe that's just what the Celtics need right now. Maybe it's. It's simple as Luca's the only one willing to put in that level of. Run through a wall and go out there and they need the offensive rebound. We talk about the Celtics, absolute crappy. The terrible defensive rebounding. And what has Joe said all along?

[Tom Westerholm]

The.

[John Corrales]

We know we're not going to be good. We just can't be the worst.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

And they've been the worst. But that small lineup that we talked about earlier with Josh at center.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah. Yeah.

[John Corrales]

Is so God awful at rebounding.

[Tom Westerholm]

The worst of the worst. Yeah.

[John Corrales]

The worst of the worst at rebounding. And they're not doing the other things. The whole concept for the Celtics this season is we know we're going to be bad defensive rebounding. We just got to be okay enough. Not even. Not even average. Below average is fine. Just not the worst.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yep.

[John Corrales]

And then the next part is we got to make up for it by forcing turnovers and offensive rebounding ourselves.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

So it's up to Josh and Jordan to do those things. If. If Josh isn't a plus in that. In that area, then he's not going to play. If Jordan's not a plus in that area, he's not going to play. Garza, you can say, is not the best defensively, but he crashes those boards, those offensive boards so relentlessly that he changes the game. Like he at least gives the Celtics.

[Tom Westerholm]

He.

[John Corrales]

He ups that meter to a level where it's like, okay, we're. We're getting so many more possessions. We're getting so many more opportunities there that this year, this team, this. This is what we need right now to win games. Let's chew on that for a second because I think. I think that's an important space to be in. And I'm not so sure that that's what they're going to need next year. So it may just be a one year thing. So we'll. We'll touch on that when we come back. Today's show is brought to you by FanDuel. Fridays feel different during basketball season, and FanDuel is making them even better every Friday night during. But right before the games, FanDuel is giving you a new way to kick off the weekend with NBA Happy hour. It's your official pregame, a limited time window where special offers drop right inside the FanDuel app before the action starts. It's 6 to 7:30pm Eastern. Open the FanDuel app during NBA happy hour. You get something new, boosts, bonuses, surprises. And you can check that before every game, right before the window closes again, 6:30 to 6 to 7:30pm Eastern. So it gives you a little extra energy on that Friday night basketball without having to overthink it. So before tip off, check the FanDuel app. See what's dropping during NBA happy hour every Friday from 6 to 7:30pm Eastern. A little basketball, a little action and a whole lot of Friday energy. That's NBA happy hour only on FanDuel. Make sure you're using the tools that are available there. So you set your limit, set your budget, your gambling responsibly. FanDuel will help you stop when you hit your limit, whatever you can afford to lose, whatever your disposable income is. Then you stop in a couple of weeks or whatever, you come back and you can pick it right back up. Check it out on FanDuel. The official sportsbook partner of the Lowe's.

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[John Corrales]

The NBA thank you for making lockdown Celtics your first listen Every day lockdown NBA locked on NBA game night. It's a great second listen. Locked NBA game night seven nights a week covering the whole league, every game locked on NBA covering all the big stories, the big storylines. You can check that out. You can also check out lockdown fantasy basketball. Josh Lloyd, he's gonna help you win your league. So lots going on, especially with guys getting hurt. Who's gonna step up? Who's gonna step up in Nikola Jokic's absence? Which nuggets gonna be worth picking up on your fantasy team? So Josh Lloyd's gonna have you that unlocked on fantasy basketball. All right, Tom. So the whole goal of this season is to figure out who fits next to Tatum Brown next season and how they're going to do that. But also Joe Missoula is like, hey, we want to win games. And it's like a dual path. Maybe, maybe this is as simple as Luca helps us with the offensive rebounding thing, but maybe that's not something that they're going to need moving forward necessarily. Not in that same way because theoretically There'll be another center here and it's going to be another center plus Neemi. However that dynamic works out, Tatum's going to be back. There's going to be a lot more defensive rebounding and the, the situation is going to change.

[Tom Westerholm]

I do think that's possible. I mean, as complicated as we're making this, to some degree, it also could just be, you know, like you're saying for next year, it could just be as simple as like Ugo is going to be the guy going forward, right? Like that might like Occam's Razor. That might be it, right?

[John Corrales]

Like it's true.

[Tom Westerholm]

Like, here's a, here's a fun stat for you, right? You know how like on cleaning the glass they have the expected wins like, like for, for a player, right? Like it's, it's this differential between, you know, but the efficiency differential, the call it. It's like a, it. Here's how, how high do you like, you know, the, the second highest Celtic, right, is Anfri Simons at. Or, excuse me, is. Is Keda at plus 15. He's got the second highest efficiency or the win. Win. Goodness, sorry. He has the second highest expected win number on cleaning the glass at 15. The highest is Ugo. How high do you think Ugo's is?

[John Corrales]

So if neemi's plus 15.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yes.

[John Corrales]

Ugo's been like out of this, out of this world. I say plus 20.

[Tom Westerholm]

Plus 30.

[John Corrales]

Like plus 30.

[Tom Westerholm]

He is making this team so much better whenever he's on the floor. And yeah, like, I mean, to some degree it's like, you know, all these complicated questions about these guys, all the. And I still, like I said, I'm still very high on Jordan Walsh. I think that like the, you know, Avery Bradley with longer arms guy is still really interesting, right? Like the Marcus Smart kind of elements of his game. Like, I would, I would not give up on him by any stretch of the imagination. Yeah, but when you look at like your Minots and you know, some of these other guys, guys who I still think there's a lot of promise there. I mean it might just be as simple as like, hey, Celtics have this 19 year old kid who is ready to win now and who is only getting better and who is going to help you win later next year, when winning all of a sudden becomes, you know, it's Jalen Brown's, you know, age 30 year. It's, it's a, you know, a big Tatum season. It's like winning now becomes. Winning now becomes way more important next year than it even does this year. And you've got this guy who helped you win in a year when nobody thought you were going to win as much as you did. Like.

[John Corrales]

So I think. I think you're onto something. I think. I think that that's where we're going to settle this. I think that's where this settles.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

I think there's two things that are happening here. Number one, Ugo is so good and also so young that you're like, okay, it. He's going to be in and out this year. But what his in and out this year doesn't mean much because his is a developmental thing. Yeah. And he's already ahead of what people would normally think of a guy his age. So Ugo is already better than Walsh, he's already better than Mina, and he's gonna be much better than those guys. And he. He's on a path to be a very big part of this team's future for a while. I think. At the same time, you get Namish K to here, and his backup is Luca Garza. Garza's taking the minutes because he's a hell of an offensive rebounder.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

But that's not going to be a skill. I. I believe is as coveted next year if they get the center, whomever it is that they're looking for, whether it's a backup to Neemi or a starter ahead of Nene, which we'll see. So if that ends up being the case, which we believe that's going to be where it trends. Right. Like, so Tatum comes back, the center position gets shored up, Hugo Gonzalez steps up, and that doesn't leave a whole lot of room for. It gets. It gets you one of maybe Jordan or Josh, and Jordan's been here for a while, and Jordan seems to be moving in the right direction. Yeah. So it might. It might just end up being Jordan. But it's like, I think those two guys are fighting for may maybe a bigger spot than. Than, you know, eighth or ninth, but it may be the eighth or ninth man next year because you're gonna. Bradstein's gonna make a ton of moves. And so what's happening now in the short term is Joe Missoula is gonna throw every game. He just picks up a bunch of stuff and throws it at the wall. And it's like, okay, this has been working so far. We're going to start Jordan. Just keep going with the Jordan thing, and if that doesn't work, we're gonna go with Ugo. And if that doesn't work. Okay. Now Josh is going to get his opportunity, and. And that's why you have Jordan starting with DNPs, and then Ugo getting DNPs, and then Josh getting DNPs, and then Luca getting DNPs.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

And this year is just. That's what this year is always going to be, and next year is next year, and it's a completely different thing, and it may involve a lot of completely different players, but I like where we are. I like where we are with this. I think. I think you're right. I think Ugo is going to be the guy. And he's already separated himself.

[Tom Westerholm]

I think so. And I think, you know, you talk about, like, the guys getting DNPs. I think the other thing that might be coming into play here is, like, you said with Garza, right? He kind of didn't have it for a little bit there. He gets a bunch of DNPs, and he comes back and he's just, you know, a bat out of hell, just flying around trying to get every offensive rebound. I mean, maybe you just do that a bunch and see how that works. Like, okay, Josh Minot kind of didn't have it for a little bit there. When he comes back, can he also be a bat out of hell, you know, like, because he's had some time to rest and, like, because this team is going to go as far as Jaylen Brown can take them, right? But secondarily, what it needs is guys who are just flying around and playing as hard as they can at all times, right? So if you can buy, like, you know, maybe you just. If a guy doesn't have it, all right, you're out for, like, three weeks, you know, See ya.

[John Corrales]

Go.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah, like, put your feet up on the bench. Go take an ice bath, whatever. I'll give you a chance again in three weeks. If you got it, then great. But when, when you come back in, I need to see you everywhere, all at once, all the time. I need to see you flying. Like, I think that might be part of it, too. It's just like, okay, if you don't got it, that's fine. But just know I've got guys who can replace you until you got it again. So bye, go. Like, I'll see you and then come back when you're ready. You know, I'm gonna say the same.

[John Corrales]

Thing to you, Tom, because the podcast is over. Bye, Tom. Come back when you're ready.

[Tom Westerholm]

Okay?

[John Corrales]

All right. Appreciate you, man.

[Tom Westerholm]

Appreciate you, man.

[John Corrales]

Thank you to Tom. It's a good ending. Place there. I think Tom's completely right. That's. That's a good place to end the podcast. Chime in in the comments. Let me know what you think. Share your thoughts. Become an every day. Or if you're not, Monday through Friday. Join me every Monday through Friday. Plus bonus podcast. Tons of bonus podcasts coming up this weekend. And then I would love it if you share the podcast. Tell everybody they should be listening to and watching the Lockdown Celtics podcast here on the Lockdown Podcast Network. It's your team every day.