Can Boston Celtics SHOOT Their Way Out of Trouble? | Jaylen Brown’s Impact Analyzed

Summary

Locked On Celtics – "Can Boston Celtics SHOOT Their Way Out of Trouble? | Jaylen Brown’s Impact Analyzed"

Host: John Karalis (Boston Sports Journal)
Guest: Tom Westerholm
Date: November 5, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, John Karalis and Tom Westerholm break down the Boston Celtics’ recent struggles with shooting and discuss whether improving their three-point efficiency can truly fix the team’s issues or merely cover up deeper problems. The duo also delivers a nuanced analysis of Jaylen Brown's impact, his mindset as the team’s number one option, and what this season might reveal about both his and the team's future trajectory. The conversation is grounded in statistics, honest critiques, and the authentic language of two experienced beat writers wrestling with an up-and-down Celtics campaign.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Celtics’ Shooting Woes: Problem or Symptom?

Timestamps: 03:36–07:59

• Stat Analysis (John Karalis): The Celtics' unguarded catch-and-shoot numbers have plummeted from last year (2nd in the NBA at 1.295 PPP) to 22nd currently (1.098 PPP). They went 6-for-20 on open looks against Utah, missing 14 unguarded attempts.

  "The Celtics are scoring 1.098 points per possession on unguarded catch and shoot jumpers this season ... Last season the Celtics were second at 1.295."
  — John Karalis, 04:12

• Papering Over Deeper Issues? (Tom Westerholm): While the slump in three-point shooting is real, Tom suggests it’s more of a "band aid" than the core issue.

  "There’s real problems here and the three point shooting is like, yeah, it’s going to paper over some of them ... but I just don’t think that there’s going to be enough nights where it does that for us to say, ‘yeah, this was a success.’"
  — Tom Westerholm, 07:26

• Offensive Creation Struggles: The team isn’t generating the same volume of threes, especially against high-quality opponents, and lacks dynamic creators to punish defenses consistently.

  "We are not seeing them generate the same number of threes against the better teams."
  — Tom Westerholm, 06:30

• Rebounding and Pace: The Celtics’ struggles extend to rebounding and inconsistent pace, making it clear the issues are systemic.

  "They're just not getting any better on the rebounding side. Their pace of play is still not where it needs to be."
  — John Karalis, 07:59

2. The Derrick White Conundrum

Timestamps: 09:03–11:16

• Karalis points out Derrick White’s struggles amid a larger offensive malaise, pondering whether they overestimated his ability as more defensive attention results in fewer easy opportunities.

  "Is the effectiveness of those drives helped along by Jason Tatum and Porzingis in the space ... and is Derek, with less space and a lot more hands and a lot more physicality, kind of struggling to deal with that?"
  — John Karalis, 09:05

• Tom and John emphasize it’s too early to make sweeping judgments, but several "push pins" (data points) are signaling a concerning trend.

  "We're starting to be pushed in a little bit of a direction."
  — John Karalis, 11:16

3. How Bad Was the Utah Loss?

Timestamps: 15:39–18:58

• Tom labels the loss to the Utah Jazz "a big data point," sharply critical of the team’s excuses except Jaylen Brown, who produced but still missed threes like everyone else.

  "Losing to the Jazz is a big data point, right. That loss sucks. That is a bad loss, and, like, just not any real excuses for it from anybody other than Jalen."
  — Tom Westerholm, 15:59

• Contextualizing Wins and Losses: John questions how impressive recent wins actually were, saying they might have "got away with something" against undermanned or poorly-rebounding teams.

  "You look at what New Orleans is. You're like, Oh, god, of course you beat them."
  — John Karalis, 17:20

4. The Last Two-Minute Report & 'Process Over Results'

Timestamps: 18:58–23:34

• The refereeing error in the game’s final minutes (missed foul call against Keonte George) may have cost Boston a chance, but doesn't excuse their overall play.

  "If they make that call ... that still doesn't change all the other stuff, everything up until the last 50 seconds of the game ... the problems that we're talking about are still there regardless if that call is made and Jalen saves them."
  — John Karalis, 22:02

• Both hosts agree the close endgame didn’t mask the team-wide underperformance.

  "You should not be in that position against that team. ... It's a bad team, and you got a great performance from Jalen Brown, and nobody else could match it."
  — Tom Westerholm, 23:16

5. Jaylen Brown’s Mindset & Impact

Timestamps: 26:33–37:56

• Where’s Jalen’s Head At?
  Tom introduces the idea that, as a matured, accomplished player, Jalen Brown isn’t just chasing numbers—he wants to win and be seen as a leader.

  "I think we may have overestimated how much it would mean to him to just get to score a bunch of points. Jalen's not 24 ... he's accomplished a lot."
  — Tom Westerholm, 26:34

• Drive for Respect, Not Attention
  John argues Brown’s goal is to be respected as a #1 option who elevates his team.

  "I think what he wants is to be seen as a guy who can carry a team to unexpected wins, an unexpected win total ... I think that's what Jalen wants."
  — John Karalis, 29:41

• Evolving Role & Future Questions:
  The conversation turns to whether this season’s narrative—Brown leading a limited roster—will be "enough" for him, or if he’ll eventually seek to be a franchise cornerstone elsewhere.

  "Is it enough for him to be like, all right, as long as everybody saw that I can do it ... or does that person need a whole new group?"
  — John Karalis, 34:38

• Narrative Power and Team Context
  Tom highlights that Brown's ultimate satisfaction may hinge on "the narrative that his season creates" and whether he’s given enough support to truly showcase his value.

  "I think a lot of this season is going to be determined by: can a coherent story be written about your season that is what you want it to be?"
  — Tom Westerholm, 36:01

• Brown Playing at All-NBA Level
  Both hosts agree that Brown has lived up to his billing—his frustrations stem from team struggles, not individual shortcomings.

  "He's playing at an all NBA level. Absolutely."
  — John Karalis, 37:48

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Shooting Woes:

  "I tweeted out a number ... For the Celtics, the shooting is bad. It's bad. And it's especially bad on shots they should be making."
  — John Karalis, 04:12

• On the Utah Loss as a Data Point:

  "That loss sucks. That is a bad loss, and, like, just not any real excuses for it from anybody other than Jalen. Like, Jalen was great."
  — Tom Westerholm, 15:59

• On Jalen’s Frustration:

  "Jalen's super frustrated, obviously ... he went on to Twitch and had a whole big, long, extended continuing of the airing of grievances, which ... I'm gonna get fined, like, but I don't care."
  — John Karalis, 23:34

• On Derrick White’s Accountability:

  "I thought Derek after the game, just kind of being like, yeah, man, I didn't. I did not do well ... he took a lot of responsibility, took a lot of accountability."
  — Tom Westerholm, 16:19

• On Brown’s Maturity and Narrative:

  "Jalen needs everybody on a basketball floor, needs other people around them to help him. I'm hoping that Jalen has enough around him to create that narrative for his sake, because he's hooping, and I would hate for that to go to waste."
  — Tom Westerholm, 37:31

Light Moments

• Golf Analogy for Celtics’ Season:

  "It's like a golf game, right? You're like, I know I can birdie this hole ... But really... it was like, there were like, two shots. It was like, one shot that I didn't take and a putt ... I've birded a lot of holes in Mini golf. Like, sure, I'm that guy in mini golf."
  — (John & Tom bantering, 39:02–39:50)

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Structure of Important Segments (with Timestamps)

• Celtics Shooting Analysis: 03:36–07:59
• Derrick White’s Role & Struggles: 09:03–11:16
• Utah Jazz Loss & Team Concerns: 15:39–18:58
• Referee Decisions & Process/Results: 18:58–23:34
• Jaylen Brown’s Mindset and Impact: 26:33–37:56
• Brown’s Narrative and Future: 34:09–37:56

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Summary

This episode dissected whether the Celtics’ shooting is the root of their problems or simply a superficial fix for deeper issues related to roster construction, creation, rebounding, and pace. Karalis and Westerholm agree that while the shooting could lead to occasional hot stretches and victories, the team’s inconsistencies and lack of creation are more pressing concerns.

Jaylen Brown’s star turn hasn’t equated to consistent team success, leading to reflections on his mindset and what this season will mean for his legacy and future choices. Despite being in All-NBA form, Brown’s visible frustration and emphasis on narrative highlight the complexity of leading a flawed roster.

Throughout, the hosts strike a balance between not overreacting to early results and acknowledging the "data points" that are starting to outline the Celtics' trajectory—even as the team’s fate remains uncertain.

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For listeners who missed the episode, this summary provides a comprehensive breakdown of the main arguments, direct speakers’ thoughts, memorable insights, and the genuine concern and candor that define the Locked On Celtics podcast.

Transcript

[John Corrales]

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[John Corrales]

Is the Boston Celtics improving their shooting? A solution to their problems or just a band aid? Plus, what must this season be doing to Jaylen Brown? We're talking about it right now on the Lockdown Celtics podcast.

[JT Corrales]

Be ever ready. It's the seas. Who else could it be? What they gonna say now? Screaming like JT Corralis Recap the madness every game, every practice, Crime time Depp and D White on the sideline. Renin J's how it started Raising Ben. That's how we finish. Locked on Celtics pod. Home of the winners, baby.

[John Corrales]

Hey there. Welcome back to the Lockdown Celtics podcast is right here on the Lockdown Podcast network where it is your team every day. Your team is the Boston Celtics and I talk about them Monday through Friday. Bonus podcasts on the weekends when they play on a Friday night like they will this Friday in Orlando. It's all free. It's available everywhere. You can get the show however you want to listen or watch. It's on YouTube. Go get into the comment section there and share your thoughts with me. I'm John Corrales, beat writer for Boston Sports Journal. I've been doing a version of this job for about 20 years. I've been doing this podcast for 10 I've also written a couple of books, so I love talking about the Boston Celtics. Today's show is brought to you by FanDuel. Right now, new customers can bet just five bucks, and if your bet wins, you get 300 in bonus bets to use across the app. Head to FanDuel.com to get started. Later on, we're gonna take a look at Jalen Brown and he's. He's the number one guy. He's playing great. The 0 for 9 from 3 yesterday notwithstanding, still a great game, regularly dropping 30 plus. But I don't know, maybe we'll take a look at that. Also, the last two minute report, which is coming up in the second. The last minute report confirmed everything I said yesterday on the podcast. But I want to get into the shooting and obviously the shooting is bad right now. And would improving their shooting fix everything or just be a band aid? That's a question that I'm going to explore with Tom Westerholm. Tom Westerholm, everybody.

[Tom Westerholm]

Thank you. Thank you. Once again, I'm here to, to be the expert, the locked on Celtics expert on shooting. So it's good to have me on here.

[John Corrales]

Yes. Tom Westerholm loves shooting. Shooting basketball is. Yeah, that's.

[Tom Westerholm]

All the hours that I've spent shooting a basketball and you put them on something else, I would be a much richer man, like much wealthier.

[John Corrales]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, hey, still shooting the ball is fun.

[Tom Westerholm]

That's a good time.

[John Corrales]

It's a good, good.

[Tom Westerholm]

Your name is Derrick White right now?

[John Corrales]

Yeah. Then, then for him, it's not that great. So I tweeted out a number I'm going to share here on the podcast. For the Celtics, the shooting is bad. It's bad. And it's especially bad on shots they should be making. So the Celtics are scoring. It's. It's 1.098 points per possession on unguarded catch and shoot. Three jumpers this season. Most of those are three pointers, but unguarded means there's not even a challenge on that shot. 1.098. The leader is 1.505. It's Chicago right now. Last season the Celtics were second at 1.295. Okay, the numbers are a little. The, the, the closer you get to one and below, the worse you get, obviously. And last year they were second. This year they're 22nd. But here's against Utah, we'll put it in simpler numbers. The Celtics shot 6 of 20 on unguarded catch and shoot opportunities. They missed 14 open looks where nobody guarded them. No one challenged the shot, most of those three pointers. And the question for you, Tom, is do you look at those numbers and say, oh, well, all I need to do is fix their shooting, they'll be okay. Or do you look at those numbers and say, okay, they should be shooting better, but that's not the problem. And yeah, shooting better just covers up the real problem.

[Tom Westerholm]

I think, I think it's an interesting way to approach the issues that we've been seeing. Right. Because I think it kind of asks you, okay, do you want, where do you want to start and how do you want to work backwards? Right? Because okay, so this team has shooters, right? This team does have guys who we know can knock down shots. And there will, I mean, there's going to be a fair number of games I think this season, right, that they win because Anthony Simons and Sam Houser knocked down four a piece and presumably Peyton Pritchard doesn't, you know, keep shooting like this. And you know, I would assume that the same is, will be true of Derrick White. I don't want to say that for sure because it is possible that he's just really struggling with a new role. Right. But I do think that Derrick White will probably sort his out as well. So like, there will be, there will be games that they win because of their three point shooting. But like, I think the, this, this year's team doesn't feel like last year we talked all about generating threes. We are not seeing them generate the same number of threes against the better teams. Right. We're not seeing that beat a defender. Whip, Whip three. Right? We're not seeing that. And I think that's one of the biggest things that's, that, that's missing at least on like a, you know, on like a bigger scale. Right. So that's tough. And like, again, there's going to be nights where they get hot. There's going to be nights where Hauser gets hot and they're going to be tough to beat on those nights. But I, I guess I, what I'm trying to say is I lean more toward. I think there's bigger issues here with this roster. I, I think it's, I think it's the latter. I think it's, it's. There's real problems here and the three point shooting is like, yeah, it's, it's gonna paper over some of them. There's gonna be. I just don't think that there's going to be enough nights where it does that for Us to be like, yeah, you know what? This season, you know, I think there's a very good chance that at the end of the season, we're not like, yeah, this was a success. The three pointers really papered over some problems here. Like, that doesn't seem like it to me.

[John Corrales]

It's. I. I lean towards the latter myself as well, because they. They are. They're just not getting any better on the rebounding side. Their pace of play is still not where it needs to be. They're. They now.

[Tom Westerholm]

You see the flashes sometimes and it's like, yeah, enough.

[John Corrales]

Like, so last night, as I'm re watching stuff, I hear scout being like, wow, we're really moving the ball. And in the. The first quarter, they were.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah, yeah.

[John Corrales]

And. And like in the first quarter, they were up. They had, you know, 142 lead. Like, that stuff was. It was panning out. And then as the game started to go along, you hear him be like, geez, I. Removing the ball well, but the shot's just not falling. You start to hear the concern creep into his voice, and then the ball starts to stick and you get into the. The problems that the Celtics don't have a lot of creators. And the thing about Derek White that I. I still hold Derek in very high regard.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yes, 100%.

[John Corrales]

But the drives and the results of those drives, we're. We're, I think, starting to enter the. At least question of. Is the effectiveness of those kind of helped along by Jason Tatum and Porzingis in the space, like, all the space that was created? And is Derek with less space and a lot more hands and a lot more physicality, Is he kind of struggling to deal with that? I don't want to make a judgment on that right now, because I think the answer right now is, yes, Derek is struggling with that. But also I think one of Derek's great strengths is understanding the issue, figuring out a solution, and then moving forward. I just. He's. He's not the biggest dude in the world, and so the physicality might just bother him and it might wear him down. And I. When you're getting beaten up a little bit and you're missing shots, it's. I think it can. It can wear on you a bit. And so I think there are some questions here of, like, okay, did I. Did I overestimate what Derrick White could be? Or is this just part of the learning curve? They are at this point, what, eight games into the season?

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

So we can't make any judgments on that. But when you look for Data points. Right. When you're doing the, the Charlie Kelly, Pepe Silvia. Pepe Silvia, Pepe, Sylvia. And you got all the yarn up on the thing I want to know is there really Pepe Silvia here or not? Is there a problem with Derek or not? And I'm just seeing a push pin and a push pin and a push pin and the yarn is going in a certain direction. Now I need more pins to tell me if the, if more of this stuff is connected or not. But we're starting to be pushed in a little bit of a direction.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

And that's where. And it's not even. Well, of course there are deeper issues. The roster is flawed. I'm more like, are the guys that you are relying on, are you getting what you thought you'd be getting out of them? And how does that impact? Like if Derek is actually bothered by all of this and Derek has a down season, how does that impact what the Celtics do in the off season? And don't want to go too crazy here, but it does impact your, your roster construction. You know, it does impact your roster construction because if you're like, well, you need more, you need to give Derek a little bit more space to operate, it kind of might change who you get and who you play with him. So I'm just saying that part of why I'm thinking it's the latter is because some of the things you thought might happen, you're like, or I thought might happen. I should, I should say you just like, huh, okay, that's, that's not exactly panning out. And the pace, the up and down, the transition, the pushing the ball, it's not as consistent. Like, do the Celtics have it in them to be the up and down team for 48 minutes? Which brings you to like the Jalen Brown question of. Jalen says he likes to play fast, but in reality, how fast does he really want to play? Let's, let's tackle that and the last two minute report and, and any other thoughts that you might have had in my whole soliloquy there. We'll do that when we come back. Today's show is brought to you by Fanduel. It's NBA season and Fanduel has you covered with exciting ways to watch the game. Because whether you are there at the beginning, maybe you missed the start of the game, maybe you want to ride the hot hand. FanDuel has live bets on everything from who will score to big fourth quarter comebacks. You can combine your live bets into a same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout. Keeps every game exciting, especially when your team is making a late push. And right now, if you're a new customer, FanDuel will give you 300 in bonus bets. When your first five dollar bet wins, head to FanDuel.com sign up when they it asks you at that time, do you want to set your budget? Do you want to set your limit? Yes. Do that. Sign up whatever you can afford to lose because in case you hit a cold streak like Derrick White does, then you got to be ready. And fanduel will keep you so you keep you covered so you can gamble responsibly and get back to it later on when you replenish that disposable income. So head over to FanDuel.com the official sports betting partner of the NBA. Today's show is also brought to you by Rougiet. Let's be real. Making excuses doesn't solve anything. We've all heard them before. It's just stress. I'm tired. It happens to everyone. Sometimes I am upset after watching the Celtics lose to the Jazz. Whenever it comes to performance, sometimes your body just needs a little extra support. And that's where Rougy yet comes in. Rougiet.com offers fast acting doctor prescribed treatments for ED designed to help you stop making excuses and start making moves. Moves Rougiette makes it easy to get started. You just connect with a board certified doctor 100% online. No awkward waiting rooms. No in person appointments. If you get a prescription, the treatment ships discreetly straight to your door. The process is fast, simple and private and it's all handled by real doctors. It's confidence. It's connection. It's getting back to the moments that matter. Visit rougiette.com r u g I e t.com LockedOnNBA. You'll get 15% off your first order. That's rug yet. R u g I e t.com locked on MBA and don't forget to use that code locked on MBA so they know we sent you. Rougette stop making excuses and start making moves. Thank you for making Lockdown Celtics your first listen every day. Lockdown NBA game night should be your next listen. I'm recording this before the games and then I will go do Lockdown NBA game night with Jake Madison covering all the games in the association. So check that out and then Lockdown NBA on the same feed has all the big stories covered in the league. So Tom, I don't know. Did you, did you have anything in mind after I was saying all that stuff.

[Tom Westerholm]

I wanted to add was. The only thing I wanted to add was that I think you talk about not wanting to overreact, and I think that's right. Obviously, you know, you don't want to, like, get too far down into, like, next season and all that at this stage in the year, but I do think that when you talk about data points, one of the big ones, like, losing to the Jazz is a big data point, right.

[Jake Madison]

That.

[Tom Westerholm]

That's a bad loss, and I don't want to, like. I don't want to overreact and say that is it, like, it's not the end of their season, but that's. That loss sucks. That is a bad loss, and, like, just not any real excuses for it from anybody other than Jalen. Like, Jalen was great. Jalen was really good. He missed a lot of threes.

[John Corrales]

So did everybody.

[Tom Westerholm]

But, like, I don't know. I mean, you know, Derek. I mean, look, I. I thought. I thought Derek after the game, just kind of being like, yeah, Mike, I didn't. I. I did not do well. Like, he. He took a lot of responsibility, took a lot of accountability. And, I mean, what you would expect from Derrick White on a night where he didn't play well. Nobody. I mean, I would expect Derrick White to take accountability because he's Derrick White. He seems like. He seems like the kind of guy who would do that. So that's great. But, like, boy, that loss is just not that, you know, you want to talk about a data point.

[John Corrales]

Yeah. Bam.

[Tom Westerholm]

Right in the middle, you know, right in the middle of your board. The yarn is definitely tied to that one. That's. Yeah, that's a rough one.

[John Corrales]

Yeah. I. I just wish that our show was 3D there. Yeah. That point right into the camera, that would have been good.

[Tom Westerholm]

Boom.

[John Corrales]

Oh, man. Yeah. Like, it negates. It negates the. The. The Cavs win to a degree. And, you know.

[Tom Westerholm]

You.

[John Corrales]

We tend to live in the moment when you're doing a daily podcast, right? Like, it's. It's hard to let some of these moments go because you are looking. You're reaching to see, okay, what. What's meaningful, what's not. And, like, when you get a performance like this and a performance like the one against the Rockets, even though some of the stuff is excusable, you start to look back at the wins. And I've said this a few times now, the win against New Orleans, Then you look at what New Orleans is. You're like, oh, God, of Course you beat them. And you go to that win against the Cavs, you're like, God, they don't rebound at all. And you go to the win against the Sixers, and you're like, they were missing their best offensive rebounder. And the good wins are they. You know, you're like, no, these are still good wins. But the stuff that goes wrong after that, you're like, oh, man, did they get away with something there. So as. As easily as you can say, hey, in those first three losses, there could have been two wins there. In those three wins, you could be like, yeah, there could have been two losses there. Yeah, so. And that's just where the Celtics are. So.

[Tom Westerholm]

And then every. And every. Every game is its own data point, right? So. So, yeah, I mean, if we. If we put, you know, if we put the cabs up here, which people can't see unless they're on YouTube, and then we put the Jazz down here, it's like, man, if you beat the Jazz, your data points up here, you know, then. But, like, because the Jazz is down here now, there's like, there's a balance that does not look as friendly. You know, we're doing a daily show, but like that. And. And each. Each one of these shows kind of continues this line that is just not nearly as friendly because you lost to the Jazz.

[John Corrales]

But let's play the process game because everything. Everything that we're saying about the shooting would have been correct. And if that. If that foul would have been called against Keante George, which the last two minute report says. Oh, yeah, by the way, it was a foul.

[Tom Westerholm]

Whoops.

[John Corrales]

Yeah. Which side note those refs. I forget who the crew chief was. We specifically asked the. The pool report. We were like, oh, we gotta find out about this pool report. Questions are submitted in advance, and the refs know what's coming. They. They should have a chance to go and review the play so they can look at it and. And just be aware. And they were even asked if they reviewed the play. They didn't answer that question directly.

[Tom Westerholm]

Oh, that was a weird answer.

[John Corrales]

It was a weird answer. And so I don't know if they even reviewed that play after the game. They had their stance and. Okay, fine. You want to say in the moment, we thought it was this. Okay, I don't. No one else saw it that way, but, hey, except, you know, maybe some Jazz fans did. But either way, you go back, you review the film, and you go, do we really think this, you know, if it had been challenged, would you have upheld it. Or overturned it. And it's okay to say after the game, yeah, we. We saw it this way upon review. That was a foul. We should have called the foul.

[Tom Westerholm]

I.

[John Corrales]

We've.

[Tom Westerholm]

We've seen pool. We've. We've seen pool reports. Get that answer before.

[John Corrales]

Yes.

[Tom Westerholm]

That would not be unprecedented. Refs have said we looked at the tape and we missed that one. Like, yeah, if you say that, like, fair enough. Like, right. Yeah, it's.

[John Corrales]

I mean, okay, we can argue. It's obvious. Okay, whatever, Whatever, whatever. If they make that call now, yesterday I was like, I, I made a mistake on yesterday's show. Here's me admitting a mistake. Unlike the refs, I thought the Celtics were up one in that moment. They were down one.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

Because I saw a replay and at that point, the Jazz had already scored. So I saw it at 103, 102, and it was 102, 101. Boston. So still don't know how things would have gone there. Still plenty of time and plenty of possessions, the Jazz, either way, Celtics up one or down one. Jalen could have missed that shot. They could have come down and scored. It could have gone the same way. We don't know. So we still don't know that it directly cost them the game, but it did directly cost them an opportunity to go up by three or four in that moment. So. But if that had happened and they won the game, that still doesn't change. Like you talk about that data point being up there. It doesn't change all the other stuff, everything up until the last 50 seconds of the game or last minute and a half when frankly, the Jazz kind of were starting to soil themselves a little bit. They were making some really silly mistakes.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

And the Celtics were, I thought, like, okay, this is going to be perfect. Jazz are young and stupid and they made these dumb mistakes and the Celtics are going to cash in and you will get to have like the, hey, you're winning while you're learning, and that's okay. But the, the problems that we're talking about are still there regardless if that call is made and Jalen saves them. Right. So how much does that change? Like, that data point would be there, but the other stuff is still underlying.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah, yeah, no, I, I think that's right. And, and it's. This is a weird. It is a weird one because again, it's actually kind of similar to the three point shooting. Right. Because you can take the last two minute report and all the weirdness that happened with that, you can take the fact that Jalen said after the game that the refs told him we didn't see it, which is. That's another weird thing, right, that they said we didn't see it to Jalen. Then they told, you know, him was back. Like, no, yeah, we. We think we got it right. Like, all this stuff that's all weird, and you can. You can really go down that rabbit hole and. And get lost down that rabbit hole because it's, you know, sometimes it's a little more fun to look like. Think conspiratorially than to, like, kind of talk about how the team just didn't do well. But the fact is that, you know, you sh. You can't. You should not be in that position against that team. That's a. It's a bad team, and it's a bad team. You got a great performance from Jalen Brown, and nobody else could match it. So.

[John Corrales]

So Jalen. Jalen's super frustrated, obviously. Not only did he say what he said after the game, which is enough to get him fined, he went on to Twitch and had a whole big, long, extended continuing of the airing of grievances, which absolutely. And he said he's like, I'm gonna get fined, like, but I don't care. He went into some conspiratorial stuff on that thing, too. I don't know if that's a sign of his frustration, but eight games in, let's. You brought up an interesting point about Jalen before we started recording the show. I'm bringing this up at 22 minutes in. Let's explore where we think his head might be. We'll do that when we come back. Today's show is brought to you by Gusto. Let's be real. No one starts a business for the joy of calculating tax withholdings or managing payroll spreadsheets. That's where Gusto comes in to take the stress out of payroll, benefits, and HR so you can focus on running your business and supporting your team. Gusto is the all in one remote, friendly payroll and HR platform that makes managing your team simple, transparent, and fast. Whether you're hiring, onboarding, or paying employees, Gusto helps you do it all from one place without the hassle or the hidden fees. You have unlimited payroll runs for one monthly price, which means no surprise charges at the end of the month. Gusto's automated automated tools offer letters, onboarding materials, and direct deposits. Save you hours. Hours of work every week. And knowing you can reach certified HR experts anytime gives you real peace of mind. Try gusto [e-mail] lockdown MBA to get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's right, three months of free [e-mail] locked on NBA one more time. That's Gusto.com LockedOnNBA Alienware's biggest sale of.

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[John Corrales]

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[Tom Westerholm]

League.

[John Corrales]

Find it where you found this podcast. Tom, you brought up an interesting point about Jalen Brown and where his head might be. I will let you drive this discussion.

[Tom Westerholm]

Okay, sure.

[John Corrales]

So.

[Tom Westerholm]

So I, I think the thing that, that really interests me about Jalen's season so far is that during the summer, right. You and I talked a lot about, like, oh, great. Like, you know, this is an opportunity for Jalen. Jalen can really, you know, like, just, just hoop this season and be the number one guy and all this stuff. Right? Right. And I think I, I think that there was some merit to that. But what I'm noticing is, you know, Jaylen has grown now, right? Like, he is an. He is an adult, and he, like, he is a champion. He's a finals mvp. He has achieved things that, like, most players don't achieve. And I, I think that we may have overestimated how much it would mean to him to just get to, like, score a bunch of points. Like, Jalen's not 24. I think at 24, a guy's more likely to be like, oh, yeah, this is awesome. More buckets for me. This is great. Yeah, that's not, that's not where Jalen is at in his career. He's accomplished a lot. And when you look at this team, I think it gets really complicated because Jalen is far, far too good to Be a.

[John Corrales]

To.

[Tom Westerholm]

To have the team be in a tanking project. Like, you can't have Jalen Brown and tank at this point. I don't think. Not. Not very well. He's really good, great player. Right. You know, he's out there, you know, scoring 36, and especially when you got these shooters. You know, I think that's. That's the other thing that we, you know, when we talk about. Okay. Is the shooting a band aid for things. Yeah. Also, it's tied together by Jaylen Brown being great. Right. It's those two things in tandem that can make you win some games here. So he's too good for the team to tank. But then also, this team feels a little, you know, like, a little unserious for Jaylen Brown at his age. Like he's 29. Like, that's. That's an important, pivotal kind of season. I don't. Again, I want to be clear, like, the same thing that you were saying with. With Derek White, where it's like, I don't want to think about, like, the off season. I don't want to think about, like. I'm not saying the Celtics are gonna trade Jalen Brown, you know, that. That. That's not what I'm saying necessarily, but I do think that this. There's a. There's a dissonance here that I think is worth thinking about. Where Jalen's really good. This team isn't very good. Tatum's coming back at some point. We don't know when. And it just. There's. There's a level of awkwardness here that I think telling Jalen, hey, don't worry about it, man. You just go get your buckets. I don't think that's. I could be wrong. I'm guessing based on what we know about Jalen and just from how it's felt so far, that that's not going to be enough for him this year. I don't think he just wants to put up 40 balls in a bunch of losses. He's not lamelo. He's an NBA. You know what I mean?

[John Corrales]

Yeah. No, I think Jalen wants to win, and I've always thought Jalen wants to win.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

I think when I. When I talked about Jalen wants to be the number one guy and succeed as the number one guy, I think. I think what he wants is to be seen as a guy who can carry a team to unexpected wins, an unexpected win total, that the Celtics are a 35 win team, 40 win team. You know, Jalen, you know I mean, Jason, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff, but here they are. Oh, my God. They're 45 wins, and they're the six seed. They're like, almost the fifth seed. Like, that's better than I thought they were going to be. Man, Jalen is awesome. I think that's what Jalen wants there. And his rookie year, he did play.

[Tom Westerholm]

With Isaiah Thomas, so he did have that formative experience of a guy carrying his team way farther than they should have gone. Yeah, yeah.

[John Corrales]

And, like, look, I. I don't know. I don't know how. I don't know what Jalen is thinking. I'm just taking a guess.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah. Yeah.

[John Corrales]

I think it's an educated guess based on everything that I've seen him do and say. He cares about how he is perceived and how he is understood and not in a I want people to like me sort of way.

[Tom Westerholm]

I don't think he.

[John Corrales]

I don't think he gives a damn if people like him necessarily. I think he cares about people respecting him and respecting who he is as a basketball player. And so that this importantly as.

[Tom Westerholm]

And importantly as a. As a man. Right. Like, he's. Yeah. Like, which. Yeah, fair enough, man. Like, that's. This is.

[John Corrales]

Of course. Of course. Who doesn't want that? Right? Like, listen, I want that. This is why I. I talk as much as I do on this podcast. I want people to understand what I'm saying.

[AT&T Business Announcer]

Right.

[John Corrales]

I'm not. I'm not somebody who's just going to come out here and say things and then walk away and not care. Like, I care about the things that I say, and I want to be understood. So I get it. Jalen. This is why he's on Twitch. This is why he says the things that he says. This is why he has problems with the media. The problems are that you're taking my words and you're chopping them up. You're not letting people hear my words to understand me and who I am. That's why he's doing this Twitch, and that's why he's doing his social media stuff. Yeah. So when he talks about. This is why, like, a couple years ago, anytime somebody would talk about Jason, he would throw himself into that mix, which is part of why I formulate this opinion. Because he wants to be understood and seen as, like, yes, it's not a competition necessarily with Jason.

[Tom Westerholm]

He.

[John Corrales]

Yeah, Jason is all these things, but so am I. So am I. And this season, when I talk about how does he want to be seen and what will he think, what you know, when he's the number one guy, how will he react to that stuff? He wants people to understand, like, hey, I can do this. You know, I understand my role. Like, last season he talked about, I am sacrificing a lot for this team. I can do a lot more. And this year, like, we've seen in the last two games, man, it feels like. Right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Tom Westerholm]

Absolutely.

[John Corrales]

Jalen's doing all this, like, summer work in the pool. I'm like, did he go to a dance school as well?

[Tom Westerholm]

His footwork is incredible. His left hand is good. Like, yeah, it's all good now. Yeah.

[John Corrales]

The buzzer beater he hit against the Cavs, I'm like, oh, my God. This dude is, like, tap dancing. This is what a stair. Stuff like, this is like, you. He would have been in the 1950s. It would have been like, they would have built movies around the footwork that he did. So, like, it's. It is incredible. And I think. I don't know. I think what this season will show is if it keeps going this way, the Celtics will win some. They'll lose some. Maybe they'll lose a little bit more than they win, or maybe they'll. However it goes, it goes. But through eight games, I haven't highlighted Jaylen Brown as one of the problems at all. Like, if anything, I'm like, okay, can Jalen do more? Can Jalen get in there and take a few charges? Which, by the way, he has tried to do, and it has not gone well, but he has tried to do it.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

I'm asking Jalen to do even more because I know he's capable of doing more, and he is proving things to a lot of people. And so I think the question will be, is that good enough for him? Is. Is going through this season? And let's just say it goes to however it goes.

[Tom Westerholm]

And he.

[John Corrales]

At the end, we have this opinion of him. Hey, wow, he can be a number one guy. Is that enough? Is. Is it enough for him to be like, all right, as long as everybody saw that, I can do it. All right, now we'll run. We'll run the Jason centric offense again. And I will sacrifice because that's who I want to be, and I want to win championships and I want to City of Boston and all that stuff, but just so everybody knows I can do it.

[Tom Westerholm]

It's like.

[John Corrales]

It's like a backup singer getting, like, the lead singer is sick, and the backup singer steps up, like, I will do the concert. And you go, damn, this person Can. Can lead. Can. Can. You can build a whole show around this person and then be like, okay, the lead singer's voice is back. I'm. I'm cool doing this. Or does that person need a whole new group? And that's, I think, my big question about Jalen. Yeah. If he proves to everybody I can be a number one guy and I can lead a team to wins and I can carry this broken down roster where we've got a bunch of bigs that are okay and maybe some days they're better than that, but, like, I'm carrying them and making them all better and winning 10 more games than we should. My question is, is that enough for him in Boston or does he need to be like, look, I. I need to. I need to spread my wings. I've shown it now. I need to go do it for the last five years of my career while I'm still Jalen Brown and not the veteran, you know, veteran help that where Drew Holiday is for sure.

[Tom Westerholm]

And I think the last thing I would say about that, too, is I think so much of it comes down to the narrative that his season creates. Right.

[John Corrales]

So.

[Tom Westerholm]

And. And that interestingly, as much as, like, you know, the media, you know, no player likes the media, all that, but that is where the media comes in. Right. Like, the media, you know, kind of, like, tries to synthesize the narrative and, and. And. And put it in an organized, reasonable, you know, form that makes sense to everybody and. And put it out there, like, for. For Jalen. Right. I. I think a lot of this season is going to be determined by, like, okay, is there. Can. Can a coherent story be written about your season that that is what you want it to be. Right. Can. Can you make this season the Isaiah Thomas narrative wrote itself? Right. And that. I think if you're Jaylen, that's what you're kind of hoping for, I think, is to have that. That narrative where it's like, yeah, yeah, no, everybody. Everybody here is on the same page that this is awesome, and here's why. And I think my hope for Jalen is that this team is good enough for him around him for that to be the case, you know, And I think when we talk about data points, it is still very much a question mark at this point, if that's the case. I don't know if that's going to be the case, because Isaiah Thomas had people around him who could help him and. And people around him who could, you know, lift up his. I mean, his singular ability to get a bucket at 5 foot 2 was incredible. And, like. But, like, he had guys around him who could make up for the other things that he couldn't do.

[John Corrales]

So.

[Tom Westerholm]

So, like, Jalen needs everybody on a basketball floor, needs other people around them to help him. I'm hoping that Jalen has enough around him to create that narrative for his sake, because he's hooping, and I would, like. I. I would hate for that to go to waste, basically.

[John Corrales]

Yeah, he really is. He really is. He's playing at an all NBA level. Absolutely. Playing at an all NBA.

[Tom Westerholm]

Absolutely.

[John Corrales]

So, number one, stay healthy, and number two, win some games and, like, can't be losing to the Jazz.

[Tom Westerholm]

And lose to the Jazz.

[John Corrales]

But look. Okay.

[Tom Westerholm]

Or the Wizards.

[John Corrales]

Or the Wizards. Yeah. But, hey, you know, I think because this season is, like, the wins and losses are so unpredictable that sometimes the. The ones that you think like, okay, we got a handle on this. If. If you. If you miss on those, you're like, oh, man. You like. It's like a. It's like a golf game, right? You're like, I know I can birdie this hole. Oh, man, you bogeyed it. You gotta make up that now you got two strokes. You gotta make up. Right? Or you part. Or you're like, one stroke worse than you thought you could be. And you're like, man, it's gonna. It. That's gonna make it harder to get to that target score at the end. And that's okay, because sometimes you birdie a hole that you didn't think you would, and it does make up in different ways. But when you have that.

[Tom Westerholm]

I'm always birdieing holes that I didn't think I was going to. Yeah, definitely happens for me.

[John Corrales]

I've. I'm not speaking about myself. I. I don't know if I've ever even birded a hole.

[Tom Westerholm]

I can't. I'm sure I have not.

[John Corrales]

Yeah, I'm thinking I might have. I might have once, but I don't know if that might have been. I don't know, might have been a figment of my imagination at this point or. Or it might have been on, like, with a mulligan, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like, okay, take. Take that shot again. Like, okay, like, okay, yeah, count that as a birdie. But really, it was like, there were, like, two shots. It was like, one shot that I didn't take and a putt that. They were like, I'll pick it up.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've. Listen, I've birded a lot of holes in Mini golf. Like, sure, I'm that guy in mini golf.

[John Corrales]

But anyway, I. I think I. Look, Jalen is playing out of it, out of his mind. The over nine from three is, you know, a tough hit, but that he's kind of due for one of those after hitting, like, half his three pointers. I don't. I don't know. I think if there's any frustration with Jalen, it's just that a show like this exists, that we're talking about this, you know, eight games in. Because, hey, we do shows and we talk about, like, where the data points are kind of pushing us, but in reality, we shouldn't be judging where this team is until, like, 20 games in it.

[Tom Westerholm]

That's right.

[John Corrales]

You know, we get a quarter of the season, a big sample, and then at 20 games, you go, okay, let's really take a good, hard look, because the next four games, like, they could beat Washington and they could beat Orlando twice, and you'd be like, okay, they went three and one on the trip, just like you said they would, or on this stretch, and, like, they're six and five and they're back to where you were. And you do this six and five seven times. You're seven games over.500. You're 44 and 30 or whatever it is, you know, and like, you're. You know, you give yourself a chance to be a succeed. So all of that is. Is taken into account here. But.

[Tom Westerholm]

But we still got to talk about every day. Sorry, Jalen, you're playing great. Sorry we're annoying. I don't know what to tell you. You're doing awesome.

[John Corrales]

He's awesome. All right, well, we'll wrap it up because I'm just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah at this point. Tom. Appreciate you, man. Appreciate you. I do appreciate all of you listening and watching, being here with us Monday through Friday. Plus, bonus podcast. We call you everydayers. If you're with us every day, you are an everydayer, and so I appreciate you doing that. If you're not, please become one. We're trying to give you the best Celtics coverage around. You can find my work at Boston Sports Journal. You can find [e-mail] and obviously here five, six, seven days a week sometimes. It's all free. It's everywhere you find podcasts. If you love the show, please share the podcast. Tell everybody they should be listening to and watching the Lockdown Celtics podcast here on the Lockdown Podcast Network. It's your team every day.

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