DEFENSE! Hugo Gonzalez, Derrick White IMPRESS with EFFORT, Defensive Execution

Summary

Locked On Celtics: Defense! Hugo Gonzalez, Derrick White IMPRESS with EFFORT, Defensive Execution

Episode Date: March 4, 2026
Host: John Karalis (with guest Tom Westerholm)
Theme: The Boston Celtics’ standout defensive performances, featuring the rise of rookie Hugo Gonzalez, the brilliance and recognition of Derrick White, and a deep dive into why this team’s defense may be elite enough for true contention.

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Episode Overview

This episode spotlights the Celtics' recent surge on the defensive end, driven by the relentless energy of rookie Hugo Gonzalez and the ever-impressive Derrick White, who just claimed the Eastern Conference's Defensive Player of the Month honors. Host John Karalis and guest Tom Westerholm analyze individual growth, team chemistry, statistical indicators, and mental traits making the Celtics' defense not just good—but special. They also debunk myths around the "40 wins before 20 losses" rule to assess the team’s true contender status.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Hugo Gonzalez: Mentality, Growth, and Defensive Effort

• Gonzalez’s Mental Edge ([04:55]–[07:19])
  • John raves about Hugo’s reaction after missing an open three:

    "He made two great defensive plays. He took a wide open corner three. So what? Sometimes they miss. ... And then he finishes that play, gets the and-one, and it's a--it's still a momentum play. And he's just like, 'Nah, God, I did this thing wrong.' … That kid has it."
    —John Corrales ([06:31])

  • Compares his drive to Michael Jordan's mentality (while playfully warning not to overreact to the comparison).
• Relentless Energy & Development ([09:40]–[12:38])
  • Tom draws parallels to the importance of playing hard against better competition:

    "When you're a player like Hugo Gonzalez, you have all this skill, and he's--he is going as hard as he can all the time. ... He is just after it all the time... And as he grows in talent, he's going to still have that baseline of effort."
    —Tom Westerholm ([11:08])

  • Both agree the Celtics’ system and veteran pairing (e.g., learning from Derrick White) will expedite Hugo’s growth and add to team toughness.

2. Derrick White: Defensive Player of the Month & Defensive Anchor

• Recognition & Defensive Nuance ([13:15]–[22:35])
  • John touts White’s Defensive Player of the Month award as "perfect" for him.
  • Tom highlights a signature play:

    "He knows the shot clock. ... I saw Derek leave his defensive assignment ... and then [the Bucks player] just hucked up a bad shot as the shot clock is expiring. ... That little level of attention to detail that Derek has ... He does that kind of stuff all the time."
    —Tom Westerholm ([21:00])

  • John adds:

    "You forget that he's on the floor. ... Then all of a sudden, Derrick White's like, behind you. You're like, what, what just happened to me? How did I miss this guy?"
    —John Corrales ([22:35])

• White’s Impact in Numbers ([29:47]–[36:47])
  • John cites cleaningtheglass.com data:

    "Rudy Gobert is number one ... and then second in the NBA is Derrick White, 11.8 [points per 100 possessions] fewer [when on the floor]. And then third is Victor Wembanyama 10.6."
    —John Corrales ([30:27])

  • On plus/minus:

    "He is plus 496 on the season...everyone else is behind Derrick White. Only SGA is ahead of him in overall plus minus."
    —John Corrales ([36:29])

  • Both marvel (almost wordlessly) at White's effectiveness and leadership.

3. Team Defense: Growth, Chemistry, and Unexpected Contributors

• Hugo Gonzalez on Giannis Assignment ([14:47]–[17:54])
  • John admires Ugo "trying to box out a bear" (Giannis) and learning quickly enough to draw an offensive foul—emphasizing effort over early mistakes.
  • This work ethic earns him more minutes and impactful experience alongside White.
• Supporting Cast and Overshadowed Stars ([33:03]–[34:09])
  • Tom and John shout out Namish Kata and Baylor Scheierman for giving the Celtics a shock boost at center and on the boards, flipping preseason expectations:

    "If you just said that [Nami is no. 6 in defensive on-off], it would have canceled out any lottery talk… The defense was supposed to be bad, the rebounding was supposed to be bad, and the defense is good." —John Corrales & Tom Westerholm ([31:45]–[33:40])

• Contender Credentials & "40-20 Rule" Discussion
  • They challenge the importance of Phil Jackson’s adage (“win 40 before 20 losses”), noting the Celtics’ adjusted path due to early struggles and roster integration:

    "I think the 40-20 thing with the Celtics, them not making it, is really appropriate for this season... and then rattling off this little streak...makes it more valid to me somehow." —Tom Westerholm ([27:29])

4. Celtics Identity & Final Thoughts

• Embracing Sample Size & Shedding Doubt ([34:22]–[35:20])
  • John urges:

    "It's March. Like, the surprise--we got to be done with the surprises ... This is just who you are."
    —John Corrales ([34:22])

  • Concluding the Celtics’ defensive prowess is proven, sustainable, and their “identity” as the playoffs approach.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Hugo’s Mentality:

  “That miss is what the—the mistakes that he made ... those things are the things that he's like, that [he's] driven by. ... He has it.”
  —John Corrales ([06:44])

• On Derrick White’s Subtle Defense:

  "There's not really a great way to quantify: Derrick White ran behind the guy and made him dribble faster and shoot worse...But that is Derrick White. He just does that kind of stuff all the time."
  —Tom Westerholm ([21:44])

• Team Defensive Standouts:

  "Derrick White is in elite—an elite defensive presence on the floor...Nami Ishketa has been incredible. Ugo's been a part of that. ... In February: 105.5 defensive rating, number one in the league."
  —John Corrales ([20:00])

• Defense as Identity, Not Just a Streak:

  "We've got a big sample size … This is who they are. ... This is not an aberration. This is who the Celtics are."
  —John Corrales ([35:23], [34:43])

• On Defensive Development:

  "If you try as hard as you can...that's how Ugo plays. ... That's why he's on the floor with Derrick White and...his defense...his instincts are really, really good."
  —John Corrales ([18:31])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:29] — Show intro, Derrick White’s Defensive Player of the Month
• [04:55] — Hugo Gonzalez’s mentality and decisive stretch
• [09:40] — Tom on effort, development, and what “playing hard” really means for young talent
• [13:15] — Transition to team defense and the pairing with Derrick White
• [14:47] — Ugo vs Giannis; learning on the fly
• [17:54] — Developing defensive instincts and what makes "try-hards" valuable
• [20:00] — Celtics' defense by the numbers; White's leadership
• [21:00] — Tom's anecdote: Derrick White’s shot clock awareness
• [22:35] — John’s anecdote: White’s sneaky inbound steal
• [27:29] — Debunking/Discussing the “40 wins before 20 losses” rule for contenders
• [29:47] — Defensive stats: On/Off impact, plus/minus, White, Kata, Gonzalez
• [34:22] — Identity solidified: “The surprise has to be over”
• [36:29] — White’s league-leading plus/minus, closing discussion

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Takeaways for Celtics Fans and NBA Observers

• Effort, Mentality, & Mentorship:
  Hugo Gonzalez’s intensity and humility, paired with real-time lessons from White, are fueling both individual and team defensive success.
• Derrick White: Elite & Underrated:
  His defensive impact—by eye test, stats, and subtle plays—is among the NBA’s best.
• Team Defense, Not Stars Alone:
  Three Celtics (White, Nami, Ugo) are among the league’s on-court defensive plus/minus leaders, refuting preseason concerns about rim protection and rebounding.
• The Celtics Are for Real:
  The evidence is now overwhelming: this team’s defensive identity is their ticket to contention. Early stumbles don’t overwrite where they are now (41–20), and defensive numbers validate their place among NBA elites.

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Celtics fans: This episode is a must-listen for believers and skeptics alike—both for the deep dive into team evolution and for the joy of simply marveling at hard-earned, smart, and sustainable defensive excellence.

Transcript

[John Corrales]

It's the Locked On Podcast Network. Your team every day.

[Jennifer]

Thy ticket lady, Jennifer of Coolidge. Well, many thanks, good sir. Here is my Discover card. They accept Discover at Renaissance Fairs? Yeah, they do here. Discover is accepted at the places I love to shop. Getteth with the times, with the tines. You're playing the loot. Yeah, and it sounds pretty good, right?

[Tom Westerholm]

Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide, based on the February 2025 Nielsen report.

[Ross Jackson]

Hey, everyone, this is Ross Jackson, one of the hosts of the Locked On Podcast Network. If your group chat's been a little quiet lately, I want to invite you to come and join ours. If you sign up for the Everydayer Club, you get access to the members only group chats for your favorite teams, plus national chats for every sport. Personally, I love watching folks talk a little SM in the NFC South. Trash talk chat. You also get an ad free version of your favorite Locked on show and a whole lot more. You can check it out by tapping the Everyday Club link in the show notes.

[John Corrales]

Now on the Lockdown Celtics podcast, Derek White wins the perfect award for him and oh, like I'm not going to continue gushing about Ugo Gonzalez. Hey there. Welcome back to the Lockdown Celtics podcast right here in the Lockdown podcast network where it is your team every day. Your team is the Boston Celtics. I talk about them Monday through Friday. Bonus podcast. Like this Friday when they play the Mavs. Maybe we should pay closer attention to that game. I don't know, but I'll have a bonus podcast afterwards either way, so make sure you're subscribed. Watch a show on YouTube, get into that comment section, share your thoughts with me and your fellow fellow Celtics fans, the Everydayers who are with me every Monday through Friday. I'm John Corrales. I'm a beat writer. I cover the Celtics for Sports illustrated Celtics on SI. I've been covering the team for about 20 years now, doing this podcast for 10. Today's show is brought to you by Game Time. Download the Game Time app, create an account, use the code locked on, you get 20 off your first purchase. Later on, we'll get into Derek White, the, the, the award, the perfect award. I'll just say it. It's the defensive player of the month, which is kind of perfect in a way for him. But I want to start with. Well, I want to start with saying hi, Tom Westerholm.

[Tom Westerholm]

Hello.

[John Corrales]

Applause for you. And applause for Ugo Gonzalez. I, I, maybe I may be gushing. Yeah, smidge. Maybe I'm a little over the top.

[Tom Westerholm]

Excuse me. You know, I was, I, I did want to ask you. I saw a Celtics writer on, on. I believe it was on Blue sky saying that he felt that Hugo Gonzalez, one of the comparisons for him was OG Anunoby. And I wanted to know how offended you were at the idea that Hugo Gonzalez could like that, that air a bum like OG at a. No. Yeah, only.

[John Corrales]

Oh, only OG Anunoby. That's kidding me. Yeah, he's gonna be OG Anunoby by, by the playoffs. Are you kidding me? If he turns into OG Anunoby, I'll be fine with it. Yeah, I, I think he'll be. It's not the same game. It's, it's. I don't know, but I see the comps. I see the comps all over the place. I understand. I, I, I know that I'm, I'm, I'm, I'd like to say I'm leading the charge. I know that I'm not alone. I know a lot of people love Ugo. It's very easy to love Ugo right now. He's been playing great, but you're not

[Tom Westerholm]

exactly out on a limb being like, oh, man, I think Ugo's good.

[John Corrales]

Right, Right, Right.

[Tom Westerholm]

This.

[John Corrales]

That's, that's not the. When I sit here and I talk about, like, man, I see some things in Ugo. It's not that I'm just sitting here being like, no, you should. He's good. It's, it's what I think he's going to be.

[Tom Westerholm]

Right. Right.

[John Corrales]

Be. You know, relative to this, like, this is just the beginning, which is his rookie season by, by nature. It is just the beginning of what

[Tom Westerholm]

I think some might say he's only 19.

[John Corrales]

He is, he's, he's 19 and 391 days at this point, so. Which I don't know if, if Taylor Snow stole my joke on Twitter with. Because he had Jason Tatum is 19 and 3600 whatever, something days, or we just had the same joke at the same time. I'll give him credit. I think we probably just had the same joke at the same time, but.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

Anyway, Ugo, there's, there's one stretch in that game that I think highlights kind of where I am on Ugo, and I wrote about it on, on Celtics, on Si. The reason why I'm so high on this kid.

[Tom Westerholm]

He.

[John Corrales]

So he comes down, he plays great defense, he blocks a shot, they come down the other end, he gets the ball in the right corner, does the rhythm dribble some. Through some weird quirk, the rhythm dribble doesn't work. And he misses the shot. Big rhythm dribble guy here. So he misses the shot. Now behind him is Jayson Tatum and Baylor Scheireman, of course, their best buddies, and they're like, ready to, like, because you block a shot, you come down to get that corner three. He would have gone up 18. Doc would have certainly called a timeout. They would have been pushing him and shoving them, yelling at him and all that stuff. Would have been a great moment. So they're disappointed. He has, like this brief second of disappointment, but he just gets right back. He makes another great defensive play to force a miss in the corner. Comes down, gets the pass from Peyton Pritchard goes Pinoy step, finishes through contact. And one. He doesn't celebrate. He's like. He's still upset about the shot that he missed. He made two. Two great defensive plays. He took a wide open corner three. So what? Sometimes they miss. No one shoots 100% on those. And besides me.

[Tom Westerholm]

But yeah.

[John Corrales]

Sorry, Julie. Noted.

[Tom Westerholm]

Thank you.

[John Corrales]

And then he finishes that. That play, gets the. And one. And it's a. It's still a momentum play. And he's just like, nah, God, I did this thing wrong. And I'm like, boom. I'm like the Leo DiCaprio meme. Like, that's. That's it right there. That thing, that thing in his head. Because I've talked about this a million times. Michael Jordan. I'm going somewhere with this.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah, I know you are. It's. I think everybody's very scared of where you're going with this. Yes.

[John Corrales]

Sounds ridiculous. As I'm saying it.

[Tom Westerholm]

Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

[John Corrales]

Michael Jordan was special because of his brain more so than his physical talents, which were immense. But. But thousands, thousands, literally thousands of players have the measurable physical skills that Michael Jordan had in terms of height, weight, ability to jump, run fast, all that stuff. Michael Jordan took everything personally. Notoriously was his brain was broken in a way that allowed him to fully maximize everything that he had. And he became a basketball God. Now I make that comparison just to say that, like, there are. You can look across the league and say, there's. This guy literally has the same measurables as Michael Jordan. It will never be Michael Jordan. Ugo is. Is that mentality, that moment I look at that, I'm like, that's the drive. That's the thing. That's like the mental thing where when he went to bed at night, when he's training in the summer, he's thinking. He's not thinking about that Pinoy Step. He's not thinking about that shot that he made. He's thinking, like, about that miss. That miss is what the. The mistakes that he made. He's like, oh, God, okay. You know, those things are the things that he's like, that driven by. So I see natural talent. I see just blessed with ability to do the Pinoy Step in. In, you know, just in the middle, like, oh, this is what this calls for, and to do it. But then I see the mental, and I'm like, that kid has it. He has it. And I don't know how good he's going to be. Maybe he is OG in an obi. Maybe he's more, but he's.

[Tom Westerholm]

It's definitely not going to be less, though. We know that.

[John Corrales]

Not less. Definitely not less.

[Tom Westerholm]

Absolutely not.

[John Corrales]

But that's why. That's why I'm on this whole thing. And, yeah, I do push it over the top. I exaggerate it a little bit for effect, but I don't. I. I believe everything that I'm saying.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah. I mean, I think for me, one of the things I love about the way he plays, you know, you. So when. When my son this. This season started playing, like, on a really much better youth soccer team, and the thing that I wanted him to do was just play extremely hard all the time. Because if you. If you go hard all the time, right, you end up reaching you, like, and you're going against better players, eventually it's going to start to feel easier, and then the game is going to slow down, and all of a sudden, like, you know, if you're just rocketing around out there all the time and just like, go, go, go, go, go, constant go, go as hard as you can, and you're playing against better players, eventually you are going to just find that everything is easier and you can do it and you can compete against those better players. And when you're a player like Hugo Gonzalez, you have all this skill, and he's. He is going as hard as he can all the time. He is running and going and going. And right now, there are a lot of players on the floor who are better than him, Right? But I just love how he's like, okay, bet I'm gonna. Just. When I'm out there, I am Aaron Neesmith, levels of throwing myself after the ball, right? He's. He is just after it all the time. And I think, as you know, that building that habit when you are not the best player on the floor. One, it makes you better quicker and two, it gives you this like, I don't know, gives you this level of toughness and this level of like, I mean, for one thing it gets you in better shape, right? You're just like, you're racing around all the time. So physically you're in a better situation. But just the, the level of development that you get when you push yourself to your absolute limit against better players is so striking and it's such a, it's such a perfect upwards trend, right? And I think when you're somebody who is as gifted as Ugo is of like, as he, as the game slows down, all those gifts are going to start to flourish and they're. It's going to happen faster because he is pushing himself so hard and because he's flying after the ball all the time. So I think for me, when I like mentally, that's what I love about the way he plays is, it's just, it is, it's just, you know, like rocket ship. Like he's just, you, you put him on the court, like the little fuse, wait for it to, you know, and then it just, boom, he's gone. He's going, he's going, he's going. I just, I think that's going to benefit him so much and it, it benefits the Celtics now, right, as, as they're winning games. He is a part of it. Even though he's not the most talented player on the floor right now. And as he grows in talent, he's going to still have that baseline of effort, that baseline of like, you know, presumably when he's a little older, he won't be diving on the floor quite so much just for self preservation purposes. But he still will have built that baseline that he can draw from. And I think that's really important.

[John Corrales]

It reminds me of Magic Johnson.

[Tom Westerholm]

You know, honestly, one of my favorite. I saw somebody was talking about Mo Diwara and they were talking about how he's like, there is no comp for this guy. Like, he's one of the first, like there's no comp players. We're getting, I think we're getting more of those now where it's just like, yeah, I don't know, he just hoops and he's good at it. You know, I think that's like, that's, that's what I, when I look at Hugo Gonzalez, it's like, I don't know, man, he's, he's hooping, he's really good at it. We're gonna, we'll see where he gets to. I don't know that there's an archetype like just, just, yeah, good basketball.

[John Corrales]

He's just good. He's just really good at basketball. He's also really good at defense. We'll talk about the defense. I will fold some of that other stuff in as we transition into Derrick White, not just defensive player of the month, but what, what he does for the defense. We'll talk about that when we come back. Today's show is brought to you by Turbo Tax. It's tax time. For a lot of us. The old way of doing taxes is a lot trying to book an appointment that's not the most convenient. Sitting in a waiting room with a stack of papers, emailing back and forth and wondering if they really got to your situation, if they really understand you. But this year you're getting a major Upgrade and Intuit TurboTax now has in person locations nationwide. You can meet face to face with a real tax expert and your documents get uploaded straight to your TurboTax app on the spot. And just like that, you're done. Your TurboTax expert works to get you every dollar you deserve. While you get real time notifications as you just go about your day, it's the relief of walking in and meeting a real person and walking out knowing your taxes are going to be handled right. Head to turbotax.com local to find a store near you and book your appointment.

[Jake Madison]

This is Jake from Lock Dawn. When the game's on the line, the best know when to pass because the right assist can change everything. And off the court, it's no different. That's where your State Farm agent comes in. Whether it's protecting your car, your home, or helping you prep for the unexpected, they'll help set you up with a game plan that works for you like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state.

[John Corrales]

Thank you for making Lockdown Celtics your first listen every day. Would like to invite you to join the Everydayer club. You're with me every Monday through Friday. Why not? Why not join the club and get ad free audio which is compatible with every major podcast app. And get onto our Discord server for in game chats for Celtics and NBA games. Check it out lockdown celtics.supercast.com a whole lot more. Check it out at lockdownceltics.supercast.com so Hugo was given the assignment of Yana Santa Kupo, which was really Fun to watch, because very early on, Ugo was just like. It's like trying to box out a bear. It just was not. But he was trying. I don't you ever see the. You ever watch Caddyshack? Yeah, Caddyshack, when the little kid is trying to get Rodney Dangerfield's bag and just, like, trying to, like, put that big, giant bag on her back, it's like, oh, that was Ugo trying to, like, hold off Giannis, and Giannis would just, like, reach over the top, be like, I will take that rebound, and then I will dunk on you. But as the game went on, he kind of slowly figured it out and got an offensive foul. By the way, he earned that offensive foul. He took a shot. I'm surprised he was able to get up, because I. I would have been. I would have had the wind knocked out of me for, like, half an hour, but I was impressed. Like, he just tenacious, right? Like, yeah, he. He made mistakes. Like, none of this is. None of anything that I say is to overlook the mistakes that he makes. He did. He was out of position a few times. He didn't help when he was supposed to a couple of times gets a little too focused, maybe a little too hard on himself, but he just kept at it with Giannis. And like, you said that that level of play is what gets you in position to take that offensive foul and to try to hold him off so one of your teammates can get. Get the rebound. And. And that's what I like about him, and that's why he is a major contributor to the Celtics defense.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah, again, right? It's like, nobody expects you the first time you guard Giannis Antetokounmpo. To be able to guard Giannis Antetokounmpo, that's not reasonable or expected of anybody on planet Earth. Like, but with Ugo, it's. Again, if you put in the effort, if you try really, really hard and you. And you're not scared of failing, you're not scared of getting whacked, you're not scared of. You're not scared of Giannis Antetokounmpo, right? Like, you're gonna get beat by him, but if you're not scared of him, and if you keep going at him and keep just trying your butt off, things are gonna work out for you. Like, you're. Some good things are going to start to happen, and the harder you try right away, and the more you go at Giannis, the quicker that will happen.

[John Corrales]

So.

[Tom Westerholm]

So, yeah, I mean, again, to Your point? As the game went on, you started to see a few more good things happening. When Ugo would go up against Giannis, you started. You, you saw him draw a foul. You saw him start to have a little bit better anticipation. You saw him just bother Giannis a little bit more because he started to figure it out just a little bit. And that just comes from. I, I think that just comes from. I, you know, we've talked before just like, I hate the label try hard as a pejorative. Right? It's. It's a good thing if you're a try hard. If you're trying hard, like, no, dude, like, that's great. Be a try hard

[John Corrales]

in life all the time.

[Tom Westerholm]

Things will, like, everything will work out so much better for you if you try as hard as you can. And that's. That's how Ugo. That's how Ugo plays. I think, you know, that's it. Yeah.

[John Corrales]

And, like, the ability to figure things out in real time, like, that keeps him on the floor, keeps him getting these opportunities. And why he's on the floor with Derrick White and, you know, in these, in these spots to. His defense is his, his instincts are really, really good. Again, he makes mistakes, but the instincts are there. And you pair him with somebody like Derrick White, who just won the defensive player of the Month, the Eastern Conference defensive Player of the Month, the Western Conference was Wimby. You. You put him next to Derrick White, elite, elite defender. Not only is he enhancing and allowing Derek White to be an even better defender, he's learning. Think about him being on the floor, learning in real time from Derek. You know, Derek turns around like, no, we're here, we're here, we're here, we're doing this. Or sitting on the bench next to him and being like, what did I do wrong? You need to do this. Who better to learn from than Derek freaking White, who is having an elite, elite, elite defensive season like this. I am. I am shocked at how good this Celtics defense is. Ugo's a part of it. Baylor Shireman is a part of it. These guys rebounding has, has helped it. Like the, The. The. The defense and across the board led by Derek White. Nami Ishkeda has been incredible. Ugo's been a part of that. And it's, It's. I can't believe that they. In February. 105.5 defensive rating, number one in the league.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah, yeah, it's great. I. It's wild, man. I mean, you know, on Derek, I. There was a. There was A play yesterday where I, I didn't, I hadn't been watching the shot clock as, as the play was happening and Derek, it was in the second half. I can't remember exactly when, but a Bucks player was like, apparently the shot clock was, was winding down. And I, it like, I, I, I saw Derek leave his defensive assignment and I was like, and Derek was off the ball. I saw him leave his defensive assignment and I'm like, what is he doing? Like, he didn't really have a path for the steal. And then like, and I saw the Bucs player kind of running away from him and Derek just kind of like, like running up behind him and all. Like, you could see the Bucs player start to get agitated, and then he just hucked up a bad shot as a shot clock is expiring. And it was just that, that, that little level of attention to detail that Derek has where he sees, he, he knows the shot clock. He knows that, that that Bucks player at about five seconds, no longer has enough time to pass it to his guy. So he's like, I'm just going to go speed this guy up a little bit. And the guy does get sped up, does get agitated, does have to hoist up a tough shot because it's just nothing about him felt comfortable, right? The dribble didn't feel comfortable. The, you know, the move didn't feel comfortable. The shot didn't feel comfortable. And Derrick White, you know, again, it's like he gets blocks and steals, but, but inherently blocks and steals. You know, if you have a really great game, you have what, three, four stocks right between the two. That's a great defensive game. And you get those by making, you know, 20, 25 of those little plays that Derek did there. And those all have an impact too. And it's hard to, there's not really a great way to quantify. Derrick White ran behind the guy and made him dribble faster and shoot worse. Like, there's not, there's not a good stat for that. But that is Derrick White, he's just, he does that kind of stuff all the time. And that kind of instinct is what I think leads to him being one of the best stocks players, at least at his position in the NBA. I, he's, he's absurd, man. I, I'm, he's a lot of fun to watch.

[John Corrales]

He is absurd. I like that word. The, the play that, that I loved was he, it was like an out of bounds play. The Celtics had an out of bounds play. It was like a turnover. And Derek was inbounding the ball and then he just kind of like snuck in. Like the, the Bucks had it, they were turning around, they're on the baseline. He just kind of like snuck in and just a little tip, little steal from behind and you're like, what the he. You just forget, you forget that he's on the floor. Like, you know, he's like, oh, he's, he's way over there. He. I don't have to worry about him. I'm just going to turn and dribble and go this way. And then all of a sudden, Derek White's like, behind you. You're like, what, what just happened to me? How did I miss this guy? He's everywhere. We'll continue this when we come back because, you know, just, it's more, it's more Derek White gushing. Well, we'll give him some gushing praise as well.

[Tom Westerholm]

Why not?

[John Corrales]

The Celtics are. Oh, and I want to get your opinion on the 4020 stuff when we come back.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

Today's show is brought to you by Game time. You want to be in the arena for these games. You want to be there and watch Derek White doing what he does, Ugo Gonzalez doing what he does. And you can do that with the Game time app because it's my go to app for getting tickets fast without the hassle. Puts the advantage back in your hands. So I've used it for a couple reasons. When I see a price, that's the price that you pay when you check out. So you don't like, say, oh well, this ticket's 50 bucks. And then you go to check on, you're like, why is it 80 bucks? No, what you see is what you pay. And sometimes I'm in a different city. I want to see, you know, what am I seeing in this arena from this section? I don't know the section numbers and it shows me the view from the seat. Very easy if you want to. If you like the view from a certain section, you can do a zone deal where you pick the section, they'll pick the seats, and you save a few bucks that way as well. It's great for last minute tickets. It's quick, intuitive and stress free. So take the guesswork out of buying tickets, NBA tickets or whatever with Game Time. Download the Game Time app, Create an account, use the code locked on for $20 off your first purchase. That's locked on. L, O C K E D. Locked on for 20 off. Download the Game time app today. Or if you're going to Use the web. Remember, it's gametime co gametime C this

[Nick Angstead]

is Nick Angstead with the Lockdown Mavericks podcast. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. I love that I can earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase with my Apple Card, which can be automatically sent to my High Yield Savings account through Apple Card right in the Wallet app with my my iPhone. I can use Apple Card with Apple Pay basically everywhere I go. You can apply for Apple Card too, right in the Wallet app on your iPhone. Subject to credit approval. Savings is available to Apple Card owners subject to eligibility. Savings in Apple Card by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch Member FDIC terms and [e-mail] oh, thanks for

[John Corrales]

making a Lockdown Celtics. Your first listen every day. Would love to have you at Locked on NBA and Locked on NBA Game Night. It's two podcasts on the same feed. Game Night seven days a week covering every game in the league. Lockdown NBA in the afternoons is covering all the big stories. I hosts Game Night on Wednesdays with Jake Madison, so check me out there as well. All right, let's get back to this conversation before we continue. I, I want to, I had my say about the, the 4020 last night, but I want to, I want to get your take on it because the theory is the, the Phil Jackson thing is you got to win your 40 before you lose 20. Okay? The Celtics were 38 and 20, so they didn't make it, but now they're 41 and 20. And I want to know what is the freaking difference between being 41 and 20 having one, whichever one is first? Because I, I understand like, why that's the benchmark and I understand what history says, but is if the Celtics had gone 40 and 18 and then gone through 1 and 3 or 1 and 2 in their next three, how is that better than going 38 and 20 and winning three in a row? How does that, how does that make the Celtics more of a contender? They're at 41 and 20. They're. They are in that exact range. They just got to it. Just, just a sliver. It's not like they won 12 in a row and it's like, wow, this is kind of a little bit of an aberration. They just, whatever they got hot it. It's right there within the flow. So I don't know. What's your take on this?

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah, we kind of hinted at this last time, too. I, I think that the Celtics are actually like, like, I think obviously there is, there are Few exceptions. Like, not a few. There are few exceptions to the 4020 rule in NBA history. Right. And I think that the Celtics, considering them one of the exceptions makes a lot of sense for a few reasons. One, they started the year 03, right? And like, yeah, there was a huge adjustment period. Like, it just. Just a massive, massive adjustment period that had to happen at the beginning. That wouldn't happen to most contenders, right? Most contenders aren't going to need that adjustment period. I think the other thing is that the Celtics as a team still have this massive question mark hanging over them in terms of Tatum, when is he going to come back? You know, how do they integrate everything with that? How do all these players who have been playing really well and have genuinely contributed to winning, how do they continue to contribute to winning in whatever role they have when Tatum comes back to. To the point of all the people who get mad at you on Twitter, I. I'm not. I am not saying Jason Tatum will not be helpful. I think he was very helpful. I just want to know how the Celtics will continue to get winning contributions out of guys who have made winning contributions so far. I guess what I'm. What I'm trying to say is I think that the. The 4020 thing with the Celtics, them not making it is. Is really appropriate for. For this season, especially them then getting to 41 and 20, because I think that they are right on the cusp of contention. And as they swing into, like, the last few games have been games that I have gone. You know what? I actually think this team is a contender. I don't know. I think they kind of are. I don't see how you can argue against it. So I actually think them going 38 and 20 and being almost a contender and. And. And then rattling off this little streak to get to the point where you could make the case that they were a 4020 team. That, to me, feels almost like proof of 4020. Like, that makes it more valid to me somehow. Yeah, I think they are a 40 and 20 team, 4020 team, whatever. And I think that they're a contender, and they went a little bit roundabout to get there, but I don't know. I think they're there.

[John Corrales]

So that's all fair. That's all good stuff. Okay. All right, let's get back to Derek White. Okay, so I called up the. Cleaning the glass. On, off. Okay, defensive number. So Derek White on the court. The Celtics defense is holding opponents to 11.8 points fewer.

[Tom Westerholm]

Wait, wait. So we are allowed to use on Off Because. Because I. I was under the impression that with Jaylen Brown, like, I didn't think. I didn't know if we were allowed to use on off or what.

[John Corrales]

The. I'm gonna. I'm gonna use the on off defensive numbers for Derrick White.

[Tom Westerholm]

Okay.

[John Corrales]

Mainly because they support my point. They don't always tell you everything, but. Yeah, it just. I think the. The. There's. There's the two interesting stats with Derek. This one, which is the. Rudy Gobert is number one in the. The Timberwolves give up 12.8 points per game per. Per 100 possessions fewer when Rudy's on the floor. And then second in the NBA is Derek White 11.8 fewer. And then third is Victor Wembanyama 10.6. So just saying that Derrick White is in elite. An elite defensive presence on the floor, by the way. So let's just run down the list. Dylan Cardwell from the Sacramento Kings is fourth. Jalen Suggs is fifth from Orlando. And then Namish Kada and Ugo Gonzalez both at 9.2 points per 100 possessions better. So three Celtics on this list. That's why the Celtics defense is so good, because they're getting not just Derek, who's awesome, but Neemi and Ugo are both like, really, really good too. And the other stat is the plus minus stat.

[Tom Westerholm]

Real quick, can I just interject on that stat before we move off? And I just want to also say that, like, the other reason the Celtics are good and are this good on defense is because that center, that center spot that we all summer were just like, oh, man.

[John Corrales]

Yeah.

[Tom Westerholm]

Nope, nope. That center spot is just a guy who playing out of his mind and is the, you know, number six on off guy in the NBA on the defensive end. If you said that before the season, automatically we would have been like, oh, Nope, that's a 48, 49 win team. Before you even consider how well Baylor Shireman has played, how well Jaylen Brown has played. If you just said that automatically we would like. It would have canceled out any lottery talk. It would have canceled out any question about like a 500 team. That in itself would have explained all that.

[John Corrales]

Yeah. If they, if you. If someone from the past got into the DeLorean and came. Came back and was like, listen.

[Tom Westerholm]

And the first thing they did was they went to cleaningtheglass.com.

[John Corrales]

yeah. And they were like, look, all I can give you is this graphic and it's like, oh, dang. It's like Namish Kada minus. Like they're. They're they're nine points better per 100 with Neemi on the floor.

[Tom Westerholm]

Really?

[John Corrales]

He's that good? Oh, yeah. Like, yeah. Yeah. Seriously?

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

What I say before the season, I was like, this is a 40, 45 win team, maybe. And like that right there, the Neemi. The Neemi thing alone, you would have been like, okay, that's got to be good for at least three, four games. Right? Like that. And then you throw in, well, Derek White's gonna be as good as ever. And then you start throwing them, he's

[Tom Westerholm]

gonna have better numbers than Wemby and almost be Rudy Gobert. Like, all right.

[John Corrales]

Right. Derrick White's gonna have better numbers, better defensive numbers than Victor Womenyama. Okay. All right. This was just not unforeseen. Unforeseen because the defense was supposed to be bad, the rebounding was supposed to be bad, and the defense is good. This month, it was the best. And that's. I don't know.

[Tom Westerholm]

And just to. Just to kind of tie off the 40, 20 point. That, to me, is the reason why, like, the. The. The net rating is one of the biggest reasons that they are contenders. And the net rating as it continues to skyrocket.

[John Corrales]

Yeah.

[Tom Westerholm]

Because of their defense. Like, yeah, man. I mean, this is. This is. These are. These are contender numbers. This is a. The defense is so good that they. That you have to have them at least in the conversation.

[Nick Angstead]

You know what?

[John Corrales]

Sorry.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

It's March.

[Tom Westerholm]

It's March.

[John Corrales]

Like, the surprise. We got to be done with the surprises.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yep.

[Ross Jackson]

Right.

[John Corrales]

You know, it's whatever you thought. Like, if somebody shows up to work and you're like, well, this person is not going to get the job done, and then five months later, you're like, wow, I'm still surprised. Like, no, stop being surprised.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

This is just who you are.

[Tom Westerholm]

Who.

[John Corrales]

This is who they are. This is. They've proven it by this point. They're not.

[Tom Westerholm]

They're.

[John Corrales]

This is not an aberration. This is who the Celtics are. If you cannot accept. Feels like they're so good that it's like, wow, I can't believe they're this good. But they are good. They are the second seed. They are 41 and 20. All of these numbers have been compiled. There's 20, 21 games left. This is it, man. This is how good they are. This is how good these players are.

[Tom Westerholm]

This is. The rest of the season is the small sample size.

[John Corrales]

Now we've.

[Tom Westerholm]

We've got big sample size. Yeah.

[John Corrales]

Right, Right. So this. At this point, very little can happen over the next 20, 21 games. Unless. I mean, think about how bad it has to go.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

For the numbers to change meaningfully at this point, it. Considering the evidence that we have, Joe Missoula's coaching, the effort from these guys, all of that stuff. Even if you throw Jason Tatum in there on Friday, who. He's still out on Wednesday against Charlotte, so maybe Dallas. But even if he comes back and it's like, oh, little bump in the road. Right. Like, it's not going to derail everything. So they're good. Derrick White is elite at this. The other. I'll throw the other stat here before we wrap up. He is plus 496 on the season. He's a plus his overall full season. Plus minus is plus 496. Shay Gilders Alexander is above him at plus 579. That's it. Everyone else is behind Derrick White. Everyone else. Nicola. Nicola, Jokic, Wembanyama, everybody. Every other MVP candidate is behind Derek White. Only SGA is ahead of him in overall plus minus.

[Tom Westerholm]

What I'm hearing is that the Celtics are pushing the wrong MVP candidate.

[John Corrales]

Yeah. Right. And listen, this is Derek White, who's shooting 39, 39, and averaging 17 points a game. And he's number two in plus minus. Right.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah. I don't. I got. I got nothing. That's right. That is wild.

[John Corrales]

We're supposed to be professional talkers, and seriously, the past couple of days, I've just been like, yeah, man. I don't know, man. These guys are good. This is the. This is the level of analysis I can muster with these guys. Yeah, that was. It's really good.

[Tom Westerholm]

This is really.

[John Corrales]

Dirk White is amazing. So when I say Hugo Gonzalez can be the next Derrick White, that's how much I think of Ugo Gonzalez. That's how much. That's how I. And Ugo is up there, right? Because Ugo's in there.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah, he's there now.

[John Corrales]

He's right there in the same, you know, stratosphere defensively.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yep.

[John Corrales]

So, okay, well, all right. Up next, Celtics, Charlotte. Still no Tatum, but everyone else is off the injury report. So basically, full boat against the Charlotte Hornets, which should be fun. All right, so that's gonna be the next. That's gonna be the next full podcast. What am I teasing there?

[Tom Westerholm]

We'll see.

[John Corrales]

All right, Tom, thank you very much.

[Tom Westerholm]

Appreciate you, man.

[John Corrales]

I appreciate Tom Westerholm, and I appreciate you, the listener who's with me every Monday through Friday. Bonus podcasts when they play on weekends, like Friday against the Dallas Mavericks. Is it going to be Jason Tatum return? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe not. Bonus podcast sometimes throughout the week. Wink wink. Bonus podcast coming up throughout the week. So make sure you are locked in and subscribe. Make sure you are in the comment section. Share your thoughts and then share the podcast. Tell everybody they should be listening to and watching the Lockdown Celtics podcast here on the Lockdown Podcast Network. It is your team every day.