Did the Boston Celtics MASTER the Second Apron or Just Get LUCKY?

Summary

Locked On Celtics – “Did the Boston Celtics MASTER the Second Apron or Just Get LUCKY?” (April 1, 2026)

Host: John Karalis
Guest: Tom Westerholm

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, John Karalis and Tom Westerholm dive deep into one of the hottest and most nuanced topics in NBA team-building: Have the Boston Celtics truly cracked the code for assembling a championship-level roster in the new, restrictive 'second apron' salary cap environment, or did they simply benefit from a string of fortunate breaks? The discussion uses a viral tweet from ESPN’s Bobby Marks as a springboard to question whether the Celtics’ approach provides a real blueprint for the rest of the league, or if there’s more luck and context than meets the eye.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Bobby Marks’ Viral Tweet & the “Lazy Debate” (03:10–07:50)

• The episode opens with John referencing Bobby Marks’ tweet:
  Bobby Marks: “Boston Celtics continue to dispel the lazy debate that the second apron ruined roster building. ✔ Front office ✔ Coaching ✔ Player development ✔ Drafting outside the lottery ✔ Shrewd trades. So much for a gap year.”
• John and Tom riff on the phrase “lazy debate,” challenging the notion that concerns over the second apron are unfounded.
  • John: “It [the second apron] doesn’t ruin roster building. It just changes roster building.” (05:11)
  • They agree the Celtics didn’t consciously plan a masterclass second apron roster; Stevens reacted to circumstances, injuries, and cap realities as best as possible, not with grand design.

2. Superstars, Luck, and What’s Actually Replicable (07:50–12:10)

• Tom notes Bobby’s checklist is missing a huge factor:
  • Tom: “At the top of this, there should be a very specific check mark… The Celtics have superstar players.” (08:09)
• The hosts emphasize that you can’t copy the Celtics’ success without first landing cornerstone talents like Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown. That takes luck, timing, and previous trades (like the Brooklyn picks).
  • Tom: “There’s a little bit of luck with all of these guys that has to happen…” (17:39)
  • John: “Brad Stevens didn’t build this team to do what it is doing now, which I think is important when you want to give the proper credit to how they’ve gotten here.” (07:26)
• Even with smart infrastructure—front office, coaching, player development—star luck is prerequisite.

3. How Much is Replicable? The Anti-Tanking Angle (12:10–17:39)

• Many teams try to follow a “blueprint”—build smart, develop well—but the hosts argue the biggest variable is getting difference-makers in place.
  • John: “Utah, Indiana… aren’t they trying to follow this blueprint? They have stars, they’re trying to get another one.”
• Celtics’ “luck” wasn’t just in drafting but also in asset windfalls from previous moves (i.e., Brooklyn’s tank job).
  • Tom: “Every superstar out there, there's a little bit of luck that has to happen.”

4. Elite Areas: Front Office, Coaching, Player Development (19:07–23:16)

• The Celtics benefited from extraordinary happenstance in leadership positions:
  • Danny Ainge stepping down at a perfect time; Brad Stevens moving into the front office due to the pandemic.
    • John: “Talk about luck… Brad burned out at exactly the right time for this.”
  • The team lucked into Joe Mazzulla as head coach following Ime Udoka’s exit—they had little choice, and it paid off.
    • John: “You had to go with Joe Mazzulla. And lo and behold, he ends up being an elite coach.”
• Where luck ends, work begins: Player development is highlighted as “all work”—from pro scouting to nurturing NBA-ready habits in talent like Baylor Scheierman and Luka Garza.
  • “You have to identify not only talent but guys who’ll commit… and the Celtics have hit on 100% this season. That’s insane.” (21:50)

5. Scouting and Player Development: The New NBA ‘Superpower’ (26:56–31:42)

• John argues the most vital job in the second apron era is in scouting, especially international scouting:
  • John: “All of these scouts now become the most important people in your organization.”
• The Celtics’ ability to find the right players and get the most out of them (including “assembly line” NBA contributors) is crucial in this environment.
  • Tom: “Tied to that is the player development. When you get guys into the NBA who have the potential…if you get the best out of that guy, you’re ahead.”
• Memorable analogy comparing the Celtics’ approach to a “Michelin-rated, farm-to-table restaurant”—with Brad as the chef finding the right ingredients and Joe Mazzulla as the executor.

6. Does it All Come Down to Luck? (32:04–34:12)

• The hosts admit that while strong organization and clear-headed decision-making are vital, Tatum/Brown-level luck is a difference-maker.
  • “If you don’t have the stars, you’re just the Miami Heat—a perpetual nine seed.” (32:22)
• Brad Stevens is credited for his clear-headed, unsentimental management style—willing to move on from moves that don’t pan out without animosity.

7. Culture and Character: The Celtics’ Secret Sauce (35:27–37:40)

• John and Tom point out that Tatum and Brown, beyond talent, are positive, ego-checked leaders willing to connect with teammates and foster a good locker room.
  • John: “Despite the stars and the egos…it’s never manifested in a negative way. It’s always: ‘We’re in this together’.”
  • Cites Jaylen Brown’s efforts to make genuine connections and lead by example.

8. Conclusions: The “Blueprint” is Mostly Good Decisions Stacked, Not Magic (38:02–End)

• The Celtics have succeeded in part because “everything has come up Milhouse,” but the only real blueprint is to continuously stack good decisions.
• It may change the profile of people who are hired (innovative coaching, less chasing of big names), but there’s no substitute for good process and some fortune.
  • Tom: “The blueprint for having a good team is to make good decisions.” (38:02)
  • “Maybe the Celtics set the blueprint that way but… Everything is great.” (38:45)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It doesn’t ruin roster building. It just changes roster building.”
  – John Corrales (05:11)
• “There is a check mark missing from this tweet…The Celtics have superstar players.”
  – Tom Westerholm (08:09)
• “All of that stuff the Bobby Marks checked off, front office, coaching, player development, that’s all part of it…but now, I want to get to the drafting outside the lottery bit.”
  – John Corrales (22:45)
• “Where the Celtics really, really shine bright this season… the guys that they sought out, you knew every single one of them was going to put in the work.”
  – John Corrales (27:50)
• “The luck part is so important. The luck part is the Jason Tatum. All this assembly line stuff is great, but you’re the Miami Heat if you don’t have the stars.”
  – Tom Westerholm (32:16)
• “The blueprint for having a good team is to make good decisions.”
  – Tom Westerholm (38:02)
• “Everything has come up Milhouse. They are… Everything is great.”
  – John Corrales (38:45)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:10 – 07:50: Initial discussion of Bobby Marks’ tweet, “lazy debate,” and what the Celtics intended with their roster
• 08:09 – 12:10: The missing superstar checkmark; the limits of blueprint talk
• 12:10 – 17:39: Replicability for other teams; anti-tanking, and the crucial role of luck
• 19:07 – 23:16: The front office and coaching transitions (Danny → Brad, Udoka → Mazzulla); player development as a differentiator
• 26:56 – 31:42: Scouting as the new NBA superpower; finding and maximizing hidden gems
• 32:04 – 34:12: Re-examination of luck’s role; Brad’s clarity and authenticity
• 35:27 – 37:40: Culture, egos, and leadership dynamics in the locker room
• 38:02 – end: Stacking good decisions—no magical blueprint

---

Summary Takeaways

Locked On Celtics argues that while Boston’s current success is the product of sharp organization, world-class player development, and a culture-first approach, there’s simply no substitute for having stars—and lucking into them. The “blueprint” other franchises seek is ultimately about stacking sound, adaptable decisions within a healthy culture... and crossing your fingers that the lottery balls (and personnel moves) go your way. The Celtics offer lessons, but no shortcuts.

---

This summary covers all core content, omitting ad reads and non-episode sections, and preserves the analytical, conversational tone of John Corrales and Tom Westerholm for a comprehensive and engaging listener's brief.

Transcript

[John Corrales]

It's the Locked On Podcast network your team every day.

[Apple MacBook Advertiser]

There's nothing like your first Mac. Here's what people online are sharing, rhain says. Everything is just so smooth and fast. I still can't get over it. Syncing stuff between my phone and this is just chef's kiss. Rincredible488 says Apple Silicon basically cures low battery trauma. That's how they felt with their first Mac. How will you introducing the all new MacBook Neo, an amazing Mac at a surprising price. Find out more on apple.com Mac when

[Grainger Advertiser]

you manage procurement for multiple facilities, every order matters. But when it's for a hospital system, they matter even more. Grainger gets it and knows there's no time for managing multiple suppliers and no room for shipping delays. That's why Grainger offers millions of products in fast, dependable delivery. So can you. You can keep your facility stocked, safe and running smoothly. Call 1-800-granger click grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.

[Ross Jackson]

What's up everybody? This is Ross Jackson, one of the hosts of the Locked On Podcast network and if you haven't heard yet, we started a club and we would love for you to join. It's called the Everydayer Club and one of the things that you get as a member is an ad free version of the podcast that you're listening to right now. It works with whatever podcast app you already use, same episodes every day, just no ads. There's also a members only group chat for fans of your team, plus a lot more. You can check it out by tapping the Everyday Club link in the show Notes.

[John Corrales]

Now on the Lockdown Celtics Podcast, did the Celtics break the second apron or is this season a whole lot of luck? Locked on Celtics Pod, Home of the Winners hey, welcome back to the Lockdown Celtics Pod podcast. I'm John Corrales. Today's show is brought to you by FanDuel. During the tournament, FanDuel is offering $300 back in bonus bets every day for 10 days. Head to FanDuel.com to get started. A big overarching topic throughout all three segments here, and it stems from a Bobby Marks tweet that said, the Celtics continue to dispel the lazy debate that the second apron ruined roster building. And I thought this is a great jumping off point. How much of this is what? Something the Celtics planned? How much of this is just dumb luck? How much of it is in between? We're going to get into all of that all podcast long and we includes our guy, Tom Westerholm.

[Tom Westerholm]

What up?

[John Corrales]

How's it going, Tom?

[Tom Westerholm]

I'm doing pretty well. How are you?

[John Corrales]

I'm doing great. I'm doing great because I love this topic. It's a very podcasting topic.

[Tom Westerholm]

This is very podcasty topic.

[John Corrales]

Yes. You know, they're not talking about this on sports talk radio, and for good reason, because this is. This is very. Listen, if you're sticking with us for 30 minutes of this, I appreciate it. I love the topic, but it's. It's.

[Tom Westerholm]

Oh, let's all push our glasses up our noses together.

[John Corrales]

Really dig into this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Grab your fork and knife. And we're digging into some. The. The. The books here. I want to put the tweet back up on the screen for people. I'm reading it for the people who are listening on audio for Bobby Marks and who I. I respect greatly. So this is not in any way calling out a Bobby Marks or anything like that. He's just so. Boston Celtics continue to dispel the lazy debate. And I wanted the lazy debate is the interesting part there, that the second apron ruined roster building. And then five check marks, front office coaching, player development, drafting outside the lottery lotto, shrewd trades. And then so much for a gap year, which is. Gap year has become, like, the most derogatory. It's almost like you want to say it's the G word now. Can't even say gap year. Be like you said it. No, it's the G word. I will say it's a shame that the Gap store is just in shambles because it would have been a great, like, local ad, you know, like. No, this is what we meant by Gap Year jeans. You know, 50 off this week at all Gap stores in Boston. Like, that would have been like Jalen Brown walking through.

[Tom Westerholm]

Or he's got a 90 off jacket from Gap, actually.

[John Corrales]

So, I mean, 90. Nice. Yeah. And this isn't even. They're not even a sponsor, but, like, yeah, they're.

[Tom Westerholm]

They.

[John Corrales]

They get salesman. They got sales. But missed opportunity to become an advertiser.

[Tom Westerholm]

Gap or a pitch. This is a pitch, actually.

[John Corrales]

This is a pitch. This is a pitch to Gap. The gap year Celtics. Come on.

[Tom Westerholm]

It's sitting right there.

[John Corrales]

It's right there.

[Tom Westerholm]

Already tweeted it. It's perfect.

[John Corrales]

Call me, Call me. All right, so I'm the one who brought it up.

[Tom Westerholm]

Call me. But, yeah, all right.

[John Corrales]

I'm the one that said Gap the store.

[Tom Westerholm]

That's true. That's true. I'm the one who Turned this into a paid unpaid advertisement.

[John Corrales]

All right, so anyway, back here. So I, I. The. The lazy debate part is. Is interesting because this, this whole notion that the second apron ruined roster building. I don't know that. That the debate is lazy. I think the, the debate is legitimate. The second apron is a, you know, it's a new thing, still relatively new. We're only starting to see the effects of it. The Celtics had to move a lot of salaries to get under that second apron. The penalties were really harsh. It. It doesn't ruin roster building. It just changes roster building. So I, I think that's step one. It has changed things. So maybe a little bit of a straw man there, but I guess the overarching question here for the Celtics, I don't think, Tom, that Brad Stevens said, watch this. Watch me cook here. I think he sat there and said, all right, Jason's hurt. We get a lot of expensive people. We knew when they signed all these guys to these exact contracts. We said, in a couple years, a couple of these guys are gonna have to go. And because Jason was hurt, I think they just said, yeah, well, we're not even going to make that investment in a Luke Cornett or Al Horford. It's just, we're. Everybody's gone. I don't think Brad Stevens was pushing back on the term gap year this year. He. Right. Like, he. He said, I'm not putting a ceiling on these guys. But also, it's not like he said, we believe in. When you say, I'm not putting a ceiling on these guys. That, that just. You're leaving it open ended. You're not saying we. We expect a lot of things. We're not. He wasn't talking about them in glowing terms. So step one here is before we get to the merits of what the Celtics do and how they do their job, I think the baseline here is Brad Stevens did not build this team to do what it is doing now, which I think is important when you want to give the proper credit to how they've gotten here. Brad Stevens didn't go out and be like, hey, guys, Luca Garza. They don't know what they got. We're gonna steal him. No, it's like, oh, he's available. He's on a minimum. He has some skills that could help us, right? Like, I think that they did the best that they could with what was available, but I don't think they set out this year to put a team together that they're like, all right, baby, here we go. Second seed here we come.

[Tom Westerholm]

Can you put the tweet back up on the screen for a second? I do want to say. Okay, there's a couple of things in here, though, that I. I think that Bobby Marks has.

[John Corrales]

It's.

[Tom Westerholm]

It's interesting because I. I agree with you that, like, you know, about, like, the. The lazy debate aspect of it and all that, and I agree with you that the Celtics did not think that they were going to be this successful necessarily. I do want to note one thing. There is a check mark missing from this. And if. If you're watching on YouTube, you can see at the top of this, there should be a very specific check mark that is not on there, which is. The Celtics have superstar players, right? And the Celtics had a superstar, right. Jalen Brown. Jalen Brown is missing from this. Like, we didn't know that Jason Tatum was going to come back. We thought he might. We didn't know what he was going to look like when he came back. So just toss that one out the window. There is the check mark for Jalen Brown missing from this tweet, right? So I think that's worth noting. The other one, though, I think that's important is in the middle, right? The player development aspect of it. And that's. That's my whole point. So if you want to get our beautiful face back on, that's fine.

[John Corrales]

I think the.

[Tom Westerholm]

The player development aspect of it, I think, is where the. It's. It's interesting to. To look at Bobby's argument within the context of the Celtics because, yes, Brad had to, like, rip this team down, you know, like, rip, you know, tear it down to the studs, right? You know, get all that drywall out of there. All the good stuff that this was built on. You know, he had. He had to reshape the. The bones of this house, right? But a lot of that came down to the player development aspect of it. And I think that's kind of an interesting distinction here because Bobby isn't just saying, like, okay, this was all Brad Stevens, right? The point is that the Celtics put so many good people in place already, right? They already had. Because you can't just. You can't just, you know, pick up and be like, okay, we're going to figure this out in one off season. We're going to figure out how to be a good franchise, right? That's something that builds over time. You have a great GM in place. You have somebody, you know, a great decision maker in place who identifies talent, who looks at a Luca Garza and says, I do think that there's a player in there, There's a guy who can kind of space the floor? I bet he could. You know, I assume that he and Joe Missoula had conversations about offensive rebounding. You know, there's a player in there that we could, that we could do something with. Right. You have a guy who looked at Baylor Shireman and said, okay, I know that he's kind of this, like, weird, flashy guy. I do think that he could just kind of use some of his other NBA skills if we can get him to calm down a little bit. And then you trust the player development staff to take Baylor Shireman and mold him into somebody who, who can actually help your team over the course of a season. So I agree that the Celtics probably didn't think that they were going to be the 2 seed, but I also, I think Bobby is onto something here because it, like the, the. If your team. Obviously the second apron changes everything, right? But what it doesn't change is the infrastructure that you have in place within your organization. You. The Celtics still had Mike Zarin to help them figure out how to navigate all of this stuff. They still have, you know, all these assistant coaches who've done a great job helping these players get better. So, yes, I agree with you completely that, like, the Celtics probably didn't think they were going to be a two seed. But I do think that the infrastructure that has been built over the course of all these years is now benefiting them greatly because, like, because everything's in chaos. But if everything's in chaos, what you want to have is guys who are as good at adjusting to chaos as these guys are.

[John Corrales]

So the argument here is that the Celtics have, whether intended or not, stumbled on a blueprint or figured out a blueprint. Right? Because the way this is said, that the second apron has not ruined roster building because you have front office coaching, player development, drafting outside the lottery in shrewd trades, and that that's your blueprint.

[Tom Westerholm]

Plus plus plus Jaylen Brown and Jason Datum, just for the record that that check mark is again, missing.

[John Corrales]

So is. Is that an actual blueprint or not? Like, is that. Is that something other teams can follow or not? Let's dive into that part when we come back. Today's show is brought to you by Quo Springtime. It's a natural reset point. And there's one thing that can quietly cost businesses money. It's messy communications. You missed calls, scattered text, no clear threat of who said what. And that's why today's episode is Brought to you by Quo spelled Q U O the smarter way to run your business communications. It's the number one rated phone system business phone system on G2 with over 3,000 reviews trusted by more than 90,000 businesses. It lets your entire team share one business number so you never miss a call, a text or an opportunity. This is the number one thing. I've said this before when talking about Quo. The missed calls and scattered texts and miscommunications. If your company is not aligned when you have multiple people talking to the same customers, you're going to lose those customers. Everything on Quo lives in one clean thread. Calls, texts, voicemails. The whole team sees the conversation so nothing falls through the cracks. And there are even AI summaries that help you save serious time by logging calls, highlighting next steps automatically. It makes your business feel more organized and responsive. Make this season the season that no opportunity and no customer slips away. Try quo for free and get 20% off your first six months at quo.comlockdown MBA that's quo.comlockdown MBA quo no missed calls. No missed customers. Today's show is also brought to you by Robin Hood what if sports were traded like markets? Now you can put your sports IQ to work in real time with Robinhood Prediction Markets. It's not you against the house. It's you participating in a live market. You can buy or sell your positions live all game long. Use your sports knowledge in the moments that matter. Robin Hood Prediction Markets changes the game. It's people moving the action so when the momentum shifts, you can move with it. I always knew the game but never had a dynamic way to apply it. With apply that knowledge now I can actually take part live. In a market powered by people, you're no longer just the spectator. You play play by play. You decide. Trade every play with Robinhood now available across the U.S. download the Robinhood app now to begin Futures and Cleared Swaps. Trading involves significant risk and is not appropriate for everyone. Event contracts are offered by Robinhood Derivatives llc, a registered futures commission merchant and swap firm. Thanks for making Lockdown Celtics your first listen every day and the number one Celtics podcast on the planet. It's on the number one sports podcast network on the planet. So thank you for making both Locked on Celtics and Locked on Number One. And thank you for being here every Monday through Friday. I got bonus podcasts throughout the week, on the weekends when they play. So join me Join me in the YouTube comment section. I'm John Corrales. I've been covering the team for 20 years doing it now for Celtics on SI. Been doing this podcast for 10, written a couple books about this team. I have tons of Celtics stuff for you. I got Celtics like crazy for you. So thanks for being in every dare with me. All right, Tom. Seems like, again, this concept of what the Celtics have done is somehow. Like it somehow can be replicated, which I think is the hardest part. Everybody, like, one of the big stories in the NBA right now is, is tanking and anti tanking measures and all that stuff. The Celtics didn't have to tank. They got the Brooklyn Nets to do it for them, and they got their draft picks, and that's how they got Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown. Teams have to get those guys. You're absolutely right. The number one thing is they have superstar players, and one of those superstars was still available and had a superstar season, is having a season that has some people saying, hey, hey, he's my vote for mvp. And whether you agree with that or not, he's still in the conversation. Deservedly so. So number one, not many teams have that thing. So when we say the lazy debate about team building. Well, number one is, if number one is getting that superstar, then aren't the Utah Jazz trying to follow this blueprint? Aren't, you know, the Indiana Pacers trying to follow this blueprint? They have stars that they're trying to get. Indiana has Tyrese Halliburton. They're trying to get another one working with him. So, yeah, I mean, isn't. Isn't that what these. These tanking teams are doing?

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah, absolutely. I think so. And I mean, and like, they're. They're doing other things too, right? Like, I mean, you know, you're trying to get both those teams you mentioned, right? The Jazz, like Will Hardy, they're trying to put good coaching in place. They're trying to get the next, you know, really good young coach, you know, sorry, you know, like, so they, they have other pieces of this in place that, that are. That they're. That they're trying to work toward. And I think it is important to note, like, there's. There's a little bit of luck that always goes along with all of this, right?

[John Corrales]

Yeah.

[Tom Westerholm]

The Celtics had a little bit of luck to get, you know, Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown. They identified the right players for sure. But then they also had to have, you know, the lottery go the right way. They had to have nobody, you know, but in both instances, they. One time they traded down, but in both instances, they had to have nobody. Take Jalen Brown or Jason Tatum ahead of them, right? Like, there's a little bit of luck there. They had to. And the same thing could be said for. For every superstar out there right now, right? Like Shay Gilgis Alexander ends up in OKC because he's kind of the only player that makes sense to be a player who goes to OKC in the Paul George deal. Right. Like Jokic. I mean, goodness. Like, I understand, like, good scouting for sure, but, like, you cannot tell me that they thought that he was going to turn into what he was. Like, there's a little bit of luck with all of these guys that has to happen. So I guess there's another check mark missing, right? You need that. Like, maybe that. Maybe that's a parentheses on the super. On the Jalen, Jason Tatum one. A little bit of superstar luck. But I think when you talk about a blueprint, you know, all this stuff here, he, like, Bobby's right, that this is all stuff that's going to help you a lot. That's also stuff that helped you before the second apron, right. Like, you needed to have a great front office, great coaching, great player development. You need to be able to draft outside the lottery, and you need to make smart trades. Like, all of that stuff still does carry over into the second apron era, I guess, is what. Is what I'm saying, because. And then, right. A little bit of luck to get that superstar guy.

[John Corrales]

So I think there's the. The. The few things here, looking at these check marks that the Celtics really do, I think in an elite way, the. The front office thing, the coaching thing. I mean, talk about. Talk about luck, right? Talk about the luck of Danny Ainge decides, I'm kind of done here. And they say, hey, Brad, why don't you. Why don't you do this? He's like, yeah, you know, and he. You had Covid, where Brad was taken away from his family. He's like, this kind of sucks, actually, and everything just kind of worked out. So you get. You get this wild lucky break. Brad.

[Tom Westerholm]

Brad burned out at exactly the right

[John Corrales]

time for this, right? Politics. So Brad, I don't know what would have happened. And I'm not saying got lucky, because Covid happened that. I don't want to. Please do not take that away from what I said. But they caught this lucky break in that Brad's reaction to it happened to coincide with Danny Ainge being like, I'm. I'm kind of done here.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

And so he became the president of basketball operations and is awesome at the job. And I Also, don't want to say I condone what IME Udoka did, but it happened. And it just so happened that you had Joe Missoula and he was the only guy that made sense. Again, just to reiterate for people who haven't heard me make this argument, he was the only guy on that staff that had any sort of head coaching experience that wasn't directly tied to IME Udoka.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

Joe was one of Brad's assistants, was a holdover. And all the other guys, you know, Matt Hardy, other guys, like, I mean, yeah, will, Will Hardy. Sorry, I'm thinking of Matt Reynold. I had Matt Reynolds in my head. Will Hardy and, and other guys that are, are on his staff now in Houston. Yeah, you couldn't put them in there because you're like, well, it's, it's still IME coaching through this mouthpiece. So you had to go with Joe Missoula. And lo and behold, he ends up being an elite. Don't ask him about the coach of the year, but he ends up being an elite level coach. So again, a little bit of luck. But the player development side, that is all work and that is hiring the right people and there's having the right plan and that's, that's the entire staff. And that's also when you talk about putting these guys in. Yeah, you know what? Maybe they didn't go out and target Luca Garza, but also you knew from your scout that Luca Garza is going to commit to this.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

You know, like, that's something that you knew. And hey, however it works, it works. But you knew he was going to commit. You do your due diligence and have guys that are going to commit to this. That is where the, the scouting and the guys that you brought in, you didn't know how good they were going to be. But the reason why I was thinking about Matt Reynolds, he was on the Derrick White podcast saying, talking about how impressed he was that all of these guys that had no experience in high, you know, high intensity moments were all asked to do something big. And they have all, every single one of them has come through. That is insane. It's an amazing, you're hitting on 100% of, of your investments. That's just not, it's almost you. The success level that the Celtics have experienced is only available in Ponzi schemes. Like, that's, that's, and that. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. And, and, and they did it on the up and up. Yes. So I, I, I don't know but. But yes. All of that stuff the Bobby Marks checked off front office coaching, player development, that's all part of it. Shoe trades is all part of it. Now before like we'll come back because I want to get to the drafting outside the lottery bit.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

This brings me to I think what might be the most important job in the NBA. Now that the second apron has come about. That's next. Today's show is brought to you by Game Time. There's nothing, nothing like being in an NBA arena. The crowd, the energy, the moment, especially TD Garden. But getting tickets though, that can be tough. It's not always simple. That's why Game Time has become a go to app for scoring tickets fast without the hassle. It puts advantages back in your hands where it belongs. I have used Game Time. I'm going to give you a code for 20 off your first purchase. I do not apply for that code because I've used it plenty of times and it's super easy. It's intuitive and the best part is you see the price. That's the price you're going to pay. No surprises when you check out. If you're going to a new arena. If you've never been in TD Garden and you don't know what section 114 means that you can see the view from that seat. If you like the view from that seat in that section, you can do a zone deal. Choose the section. Gametime will pick the seats for you. You can save a few extra bucks that way. It's great for last minute so it's stress free from start to finish. Take the guesswork out of buying NBA tickets with GameTime. Download the GameTime app, create an account. Use the code locked on for $20 off your first purchase. I've already used that code years ago. Locked on gets you $20 off your first purchase. Download the GameTime app today. Remember, if you're using the web, it's GameTime Co GameTime Co on the web. Today's show is also brought to you by fanduel. It's tournament time and we're winding down. It's almost over and there is a way to get in on this non stop action before they cut down the nets. FanDuel giving you $300 back in bonus bets every day for 10 days. That means 10 chances to stay involved throughout the entire tournament. You can mix it up however you want. You got game picks, futures, same game parlays for bigger potential buy payouts. It's perfect for the tournament because every day there's something new. We saw that with UConn. Different matchups, new storylines and more ways to get involved as the bracket unfolds. Go to FanDuel.com to sign up today. When you sign up, it'll ask you to set a limit. Set your budget. Please do that. Whatever you can afford to lose. Just in case your money wasn't on Yukon. Hey, that happens sometimes. Whatever you can afford to lose your disposable income, that's your limit. That's your budget. Set that and gamble responsibly. @fanduel.com get in on the action. Thank you for making a Lockdown Celtics. Your first listen. Every day you're in every day are here with me Monday through Friday. Now join the everyday or club Use the code march. You're going to get ad free episodes and entry into our private listener group chat. So checking out lockdown celtics.supercast.com 5 bucks a month, 50 bucks a year ad free episodes audio on every major podcasting app. And the code March will get you that first month free. So go check it out. Lockdown celtics.supercast.com all right, Tom, the drafting outside the lottery and with, you know, the, the finding the Luca Garzas. And you know, I'm going to include Josh Minot in that because he, even though he's gone, he, he won them games earlier this season. I've been saying this. I think only Chris Boucher. Sorry, Chris. But only Chris Boucher is, is, that's the only kind of miss that the Celtics have had this season. So that's an incredible, terrible, awful.

[Tom Westerholm]

Get out of there.

[John Corrales]

I'm joking. Hey, hey, Max. Max set a record.

[Tom Westerholm]

That's right. That is true.

[John Corrales]

First guy to score in the G League and the NBA in the same day. So that worked out too, man.

[Tom Westerholm]

Real like AAU type situation. Like, yeah, I was hooping earlier. Now, now I'm hooping here. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, incredible. Anyways, so yeah, I retract Max. Also the whole thing.

[John Corrales]

The most most important job now in the NBA, I think, is scouting. The scouting department, especially international scouting. But your scouts have to be the absolute best. If I was an owner, if I'm Bill Chisholm and I'm like, how do we allocate our resources? I would take, I would take the money you get from your tax payment this year because you could deduct the tax and you get a few million dollars. You know what? I'm taking that and I'm investing it in our scouting department. However, we need to do it do you need to stay in, I don't know, Bulgaria for an extra week? Sure, whatever it is. You want to go scout the basketball Africa League? Sure, go do it. Whether it's college, whether it's somewhere internationally, and you're pro scouts, all of these scouts now become the most important people in your organization because you not only have to identify diamonds in the rough, you have to identify good people. You have to identify people that are going to do the work you have to do. Like, the personal dossier that you got to get on these guys has to be on point. Where the Celtics really, really shine bright this season and why, why they're able to sit there and say, yeah, we kind of thought we would have a good season is because the, the guys that they sought out, maybe you didn't think all of them are going to be as good as they are, but you knew every single one of them was going to put in the work and they were going to be. They were going to be the best that they could be. It just so happens that the best they could be has been way off the charts. So scouting, to me, Tom, is. Is a premium in the NBA right now.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah. And I think tied to that is, I mean, I know we already touched on it, but tied to that is the player development. Because when you get guys into the NBA who are, who have the potential to be NBA players, if you can get the best out of that guy, chances are the best out of that guy. There's a reason every, you know, every mock draft is wildly over enthusiastic about the, you know, the number 34 pick. Right. You know, everybody's like, this guy's going to be a role player for sure. It's because you can look at every single guy and see a potential player in there. Right? Like, you can. You can see the potential in there. So, yes, to your point, get the scout who's going to identify the guy who is going to put in the work, right? Get the guy who goes and learns enough about Ugo to be like, listen, no, I know he didn't have, like, the best season of all time, and I know that's why he slipped a little bit in the draft. But that kid is going to work his tail off. And we believe that our. That then when we draft him and we pass him to our player development team, this kid is going to be something good. Right? Those two things working in tandem is. Is so important because, yeah, again, you can go, you can look at every single one of these guys coming into the draft and see a Potential NBA player in there. So what it comes down to is. Is knowing their personality and knowing that when you. When you move them, when you move them, when you move this 6 foot 7 guy down the Celtics assembly line, it's like, yep, here's another NBA player. Here's another. Here's another NBA player. We did it again. Here's Mimi Keda. He's just. He's just good now. We did it again. Here's Baylor Scheiman. We did it again. Like, every single guy that we move along this development line ends up being good.

[John Corrales]

So what the Celtics are. Is like Michelin rated, farm to table restaurant. They're just. This is what they.

[Tom Westerholm]

They watching the bear the whole way through for the first time. So I love this. I love this guy.

[John Corrales]

Yeah, that's what this is. That's. That's right. Right. I'm a big food guy.

[Tom Westerholm]

I like to cook.

[John Corrales]

This is a. You. You got to find the right ingredients. You got to find fresh ingredients. You got to find the ingredients that work. You could have a chef that knows what the hell he's doing with all of these.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah, Brad's. Brad's Carmy Joe might be Richie. I don't know.

[John Corrales]

Yeah, I. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not ready to do those comps, but we can. We can work. That's something for the summer.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah, we'll do it.

[John Corrales]

Summer. But. But what? I. I see Joe as like the chef. Right?

[Tom Westerholm]

Okay. Okay.

[John Corrales]

You know, he's the chef. And then the staff, those are sous chefs around him that. You know what I mean? They're the ones that know you got a pastry chef. Like, I need that dessert. You get this. This guy.

[Tom Westerholm]

We're already doing it. Tony Dobbins is. Is. Is Marcus, right? Like, he's. He's. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. No, we're there.

[John Corrales]

We're there, we're there.

[Tom Westerholm]

But. So.

[John Corrales]

But that. But that's what the Celtics are. And so I guess maybe have I talked myself out of the luck part of this? Because you. You do have to have luck.

[Tom Westerholm]

The luck part is so important. Like, the luck part is the Jason Tatum. None of all this assembly line stuff is great.

[John Corrales]

But you're. You're like.

[Tom Westerholm]

You're the Miami Heat. If you don't have the stars, right?

[John Corrales]

You're just.

[Tom Westerholm]

You're just, you know, you're like a nine seed. You're a perpetual nine seed. If you don't have the stars, the

[John Corrales]

front office has to be able to understand. And I think what makes the front office Great is their ability to. I think. I think one of. One of Brad's greatest strengths is he's willing to take a swing, but he's also willing to be like, nope, didn't work. And he doesn't get married to anything, you know? Yeah, he brought in Dennis Schroeder, right? And that. That. That was like, hey, you get Dennis Schroeder, like a minimum, right? Or the. Whatever it was, like, might have been the taxpayer mid level. Whatever it was, it was a stealing, like, oh, yeah. And then you're like, ah, this isn't exactly working. Boom, he's gone. You brought in Chris Bouchetta. Minimum, not working, Gone. That's fine. It's okay. We can. We can move you. He has no fear of having that tough conversation with somebody, you know, like, hey, sorry, Al Horford, but we're not going to give you money. Right? Like, I'm sorry, Drew Holiday. Like, Drew, like, how. Drew's one of, like, the nicest, most professional people. He just comes in and does the work, and he'll just sit there, be like, yep, sorry, this is. We're gonna do. This is the plan.

[Tom Westerholm]

This.

[John Corrales]

He lays everything out and he has all these guys thanking him after they get traded. Yeah, that's. That's the sign of a good front office, right? None of these guys have left and been like, ah, screw the Celtics. They're like, no, man. Love, Brad. Love. I'd come back. I'd come back, no problem. Anthony Simons. I'd come back. Yeah, absolutely. You know, all of these guys. So that's how good the front office is, you know, 100.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah. I think. I think what we see is two things with Brad that we see the clarity of purpose, right? We see, like, a clarity of just like, I know what I am here to do, and there are going to be tough decisions, and they're going to be, you know, great decisions. Right? Like, hey, like, we're, you know, it's. It's going to be a, you know, a fun conversation when we're able to sign Ron Harper Jr. Right. Like, that's going to be a nice one. But then there's also going to be the tough conversations, and you have to have both. And the clarity of knowing what I'm doing and. And that I'm just. I'm here to execute this plan. Like, that's, That's. And then I also think with Brad, too, a lot like Joe, there's an authenticity there. There's like. And, like, you know, I. I genuinely think that, like, yeah, he's a little bit. He, he could be a little cold blooded. Right. But there's also. But, but he know, but it's not cold hearted in a mean way. You know, cold blood. It's. No, it's. He can be cold blooded, but he's not cold hearted. He's not like, he's not doing this to, you know, you know, he's not just like, screw this guy, get him off my team. It's like, no, listen, I'm sorry, this is, this is what we have to do and I respect you and then I, you know, whatever it is. But like, you know, he's, he's clear about what he's trying to do. And I think as a, as when you're a professional and, and when, when the guy is being a professional to you, I think you kind of respect that.

[John Corrales]

We've talked about Joe and the coaching a ton. You know, the one, the one added thing I'll just throw in here right at the end, when you talk about the check mark for Jaylen and Jason, the element that we haven't mentioned is, and, and this is critically important is that they're also good people.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yes.

[John Corrales]

And the, there's ego absolutely. Across the board. Everybody has an ego. The egos don't generally get in the way. Even if there's some ego driven. And I'll throw like Jaylen's game in Atlanta. Jaylen's the hey, I'm gonna, We're so shorthanded. I can do this myself. Ego. Right. I can. And it's, it's an ego driven kind of bad game in that he tried to do too much. But it wasn't ego driven in a negative way. It wasn't, hey, I'm so much better than you guys. Right?

[Tom Westerholm]

Right.

[John Corrales]

You know, you know, I mean, it's. His ego is what drives him. Right. It's. It's a confidence, is the confidence in himself. And to say I, I got this, it didn't come from a bad place. It just, it wasn't exactly how we should have played. But the Celtics, despite the stars and the egos that inherently go with all of the stars, everybody in the NBA, it's, it's never manifested in a negative way. It's never, I'm better than you. It's always kind of like, man, we're, we're talking about Jalen doing astrology and numerology and all these like trying something that even though I'm not into that, he did made a, make a personal connection. Like he connected with his teammates. Like that's. He, whatever it was, he actually made a, an honest, good hearted effort to connect with his teammates because he said, oh, I gotta lead these guys. That, that's not some egomaniac coming in and saying, hey guys, Jalen Brown here, he, he connected with those guys. So that part is, is huge too, because you need a good locker room and the Celtics have had a great locker room throughout all of this.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yep, I agree.

[John Corrales]

All right, so I think Bobby Marks is onto something. I think there's, there's even more discussion to be had here. Building a roster in the second apron era. It hasn't been ruined, but it's different. And the Celtics have figured out all the ways. I don't know if it's a blueprint that can be mastered, but other than

[Tom Westerholm]

just, other than just the blueprint for having a good team is to make good decisions.

[John Corrales]

You know, like it's, it's stacking good decisions is all it is. And that's. It may change the types of guys who become coaches. It may change. Maybe, maybe you don't go after some of the bigger, like, long term names because, you know, it might be more about them than it is about the team. Maybe that changes some of the, the dynamics. Maybe you go some, some unknown people that fit a, a profile more than a, a name recognition thing. Maybe there's some of that going on. Maybe, maybe the Celtics set the blueprint that way. But, man, everything has come up, Milhouse. They are just, they are, Everything is great.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

With them, you know, we can't. I can't. I can't see a negative in all of this other than this podcast is over and I'm sad, Brutal, I'm sad.

[Tom Westerholm]

So.

[John Corrales]

But gotta say goodbye, Tom. I gotta have the tough conversation with you and be like, it's time to let you go.

[Tom Westerholm]

Time to go. Clarity of purpose in ending this podcast, man.

[John Corrales]

There you go.

[Tom Westerholm]

So I appreciate you, man.

[John Corrales]

Appreciate you as well. And I do appreciate you listening, watching, bearing with us through. I thought it was a fun conversation. It was an interesting kind of jumping off point with that Bobby Marks tweet. And it's a conversation that probably could last for. I know I could keep going for hours, but this is where we cut it off and say thank you for listening, thank you for watching, thank you for being an everydayer and thank you for sharing the podcast and telling everybody that they should be listening to and watching the Lockdown Celtics podcast here on the Lockdown podcast network. It's your team every day.

[Zepbound Advertiser]

Snoring, gasping during sleep Feeling fatigued? Wake up to Zepbound Tirzepatide, the first and only FDA approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea in adults with obesity. Zeb Bound is an injectable prescription medicine that may help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea and obesity to improve their osa. Zebbound should be used with a reduced calorie diet and increase physical activity. Zepbound is Approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5 or 15mg injection. Zepbound contains Tirzepatide and should not be used with other Tirzepatide containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Do not share needles or pins or reuse needles. Don't take Zeb Bound if allergic to it or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer or multiple endocrine neoplasia Syndrome Type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes, depression or suicidal thoughts before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing pregnant, plan to be or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979 or visit zepbound Lilly.com Zepbound and its delivery device, Base and Quickpin are registered trademarks owned or licensed by eli Lilly Company. Its subsidiaries or affiliates K Pop, Demon

[McDonald's Advertiser]

Hunters, Haja Boy's Breakfast Meal and Hunt Tricks Meal have just dropped at McDonald's. They're calling this a battle for the fans. What do you say to that, Rumi?

[Apple MacBook Advertiser]

It's not.

[McDonald's Advertiser]

Not a battle. So glad the Saja Boys could take

[Grainger Advertiser]

breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day.

[Tom Westerholm]

It is an honor to share.

[McDonald's Advertiser]

No, it's our honor.

[John Corrales]

It is our larger honor.

[Tom Westerholm]

No, really. Stop.

[McDonald's Advertiser]

You can really feel the respect in this battle. Pick a meal to pick a side

[Zepbound Advertiser]

and participate in McDonald's while supplies last.