Jaylen Brown CALLS OUT Refs, Joel Embiid Flopping | Did He MISS the Mark?

Summary

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Locked On Celtics – Jaylen Brown CALLS OUT Refs, Joel Embiid Flopping | Did He MISS the Mark?

Date: May 5, 2026
Host: John Karalis (Boston Sports Journal, Locked On Podcast Network)
Guest: Tom Westerholm

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Episode Overview

In this bonus episode, John Karalis and guest Tom Westerholm dive deep into Jaylen Brown’s recent post-season comments, including his criticism of NBA referees, allegations against Joel Embiid's flopping, and subtle shots possibly aimed at Celtics coach Joe Mazzulla. The conversation scrutinizes whether Jaylen's comments were justified or just post-loss venting, examines player psychology, and considers what it all means for the Celtics’ offseason.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Jaylen Brown’s Criticism of Officials

• Main Point: Brown, after the season ended, used his livestream to accuse refs of targeting him for offensive fouls, particularly for push-offs.
• Karalis’ Take (01:05–04:02):
  • Brown claimed he’d been playing the same way all year, but only in the playoffs did refs start calling offensive fouls.
  • “If you think they're going to call it on you all the time, why do you keep doing it?” (John Karalis, 02:24)
  • Karalis views Brown’s behavior as refusing to adjust, despite being aware of the increased scrutiny.
• Westerholm’s Take (03:12–05:10):
  • Agrees with the frustration but insists adjustment is necessary: “It’s a habit thing...but you want to be able to diversify.” (Tom Westerholm, 03:12)
  • Both agree it feels like making excuses: “For a guy who's always talking about no excuses...it feels like excuses.” (Tom Westerholm, 05:10)
• Quote: “Jalen is a master at saying ‘I don’t make any excuses.’ But here’s the excuse.” (John Karalis, 05:36)

Conspiracy Theories & Responsibility

• Brown's Tone: Explicitly suggested he’s the victim of a referee conspiracy: “There had to be some sort of board, big red board. When Jalen Brown does this, call a foul.” (John Karalis, 06:04)
• Hosts’ Reaction:
  • Karalis disapproves of players fueling conspiracy theories, labeling Brown’s comments as literally conspiratorial.
  • Both feel the onus is on elite players to adapt if called differently.

Adjustment and Playing Style

• Technical Breakdown (07:33–09:48):
  • Karalis: Elite players, even in shoot-arounds, should work on not extending their arms.
  • Peyton Pritchard cited as a player who creates space without extending.
  • “If you believe they are looking for it, don’t give it to them.” (John Karalis, 07:33)

Comparing Brown to Other Players

• Shea Gilgeous-Alexander Reference (09:48–11:01):
  • Westerholm brings up that Brown may perceive SGA and others get away with push-offs/flopping because they’re subtler and better at baiting refs.
  • “You don’t get the same credit with the referees because you’re not as good at the baiting.” (Tom Westerholm, 13:27)

Flopping & Ref Relationship

• Ref Backlash:
  • Openly calling out officials may harm Brown’s rapport with them: “Refs are human…[if] they’re getting called out constantly, they're not going to feel like they want to give you calls.” (Tom Westerholm, 13:27)

Stat Breakdown: Are the Calls Unusual?

• Foul Stats (15:11–16:21):
  • Brown was 2nd in the NBA in offensive fouls—contradicting his claim of being unfairly targeted only in the postseason.
  • “The rule all season long has been don’t extend the arm.” (John Karalis, 16:14)
• Karalis:
  • “If you keep that elbow like chicken wing, you can do that…but if I see your elbow straight, I’m calling that foul.” (16:09)

Responsibility for Celtics’ Playoff Exit

• Ball Movement & Play Style:
  • Brown tended toward isolation and didn’t move the ball enough in key playoff moments.
  • “If there’s any sort of responsibility... it's that he himself didn't move the ball as much as he should have.” (John Karalis, 16:16)
• Quote from Brown:
  • “I wish we played the style and trusted that style more... I wish that style for our team was how we empowered the rest of our group...” (Paraphrased by Karalis, 17:00–18:00)

Was Jaylen Brown Calling Out Joe Mazzulla?

• Ambiguous Critique:
  • Brown’s longing for a faster-play style comes off as indirect criticism of the coaching staff or teammates.
  • “It feels like he's on a big ‘it's not my fault tour.’” (John Karalis, 19:32)
• Westerholm:
  • Suggests it's odd for Brown to shift from accountability after games to blame-shifting so soon after the loss.

The Psychology of Elite Players

• Motivation as ‘Victim’:
  • Karalis draws on Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Larry Bird—great players often manufacture slights as motivation.
  • “You have to make yourself the victim so you can fight against something.” (John Karalis, 37:01)
  • Acknowledges Brown feels especially targeted: “Jalen always needs something to rail against...That’s how a lot of these players are.” (John Karalis, 26:48)
• Caution on Public Statements:
  • Westerholm: “If it were me, I probably would have taken some time before I started...kind of let things settle down.” (Tom Westerholm, 21:34)

Takeaways and Future Implications

• Both agree: Brown had a phenomenal season, but this immediate post-loss venting risks overshadowing it.
• Reflect on how his comments might affect locker room, coaching relationships, and offseason decisions.
• Karalis asserts no ill intent from Brown, but wishes he chose his words more carefully.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On excuses:
  “Jalen is a master at saying ‘I don’t make any excuses.’ But here’s the excuse.”
  — John Karalis (05:36)

• On fuel for motivation:
  “Jalen always needs something to rail against...That's how a lot of these players are. They're not entirely—there's a mental instability there that they need to...fuel them because that's what makes them great.”
  — John Karalis (26:48)

• On ref conspiracy:
  “There had to be some sort of board, big red board. When Jalen Brown does this call a foul like he is telling you, I have this conspiracy theory.”
  — John Karalis (06:04)

• On responsibility:
  “The responsibility here isn't that you got called for 10 offensive fouls. The responsibility is that when Embiid came back...they just...became ISO, ISO, ISO. And that's the part...he should have taken is that he himself didn't move the ball as much as he should have.”
  — John Karalis (16:16)

• On immediacy of venting:
  “I guess if it were me, I probably would have taken some time...before I started...kind of let things settle down.”
  — Tom Westerholm (21:34)

• On pushing off:
  “The rule all season long has been don’t extend the arm...and if you don't, you're still going to create space.”
  — John Karalis / Tom Westerholm (16:09–09:20)

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Important Timestamps

• Jaylen Brown’s comments about the refs: 01:05–05:55
• Conspiratorial thinking & onus on players to adjust: 06:04–07:33
• Physicality & adjustment, player examples (Pritchard): 07:33–09:20
• Comparing Brown to SGA, star treatment & flopping: 13:27–15:11
• Stat check: Brown’s offensive fouls vs. narrative: 15:11–16:21
• Responsibility for playoff loss / ISO vs. ball movement: 16:16–19:32
• On calling out the coach (Joe Mazzulla?): 31:24–32:14
• Player psychology, need to be ‘victim/fuel’: 26:48–31:18
• Final reflection on Brown’s season & legacy: 36:56–38:32

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Summary Table

| Segment | Topic | Key Takeaway | Timestamp | |------------------|-------------------------|--------------|-------------| | Browns’ Ref Rants| Accusing officials | Excuses vs. accountability | 01:05–05:55 | | Conspiracy | “Big red board” theory | Fueling conspiracy theories | 06:04 | | Adjustments | Habit of push-offs | Elite players must adapt | 07:33–09:20 | | Star Treatment | SGA, Embiid, flopping | Some stars are better at baiting refs | 13:27–15:11 | | Stats | Regular season fouls | Brown’s narrative conflicts with data | 15:11–16:21 | | Blame Game | Blaming style & coach | Possible passive-aggressive call-out | 19:32–22:52 | | Player Mindset | Motivation via slights | “Making yourself the victim” | 26:48–31:18 | | Legacy | Brown’s standing | Greatness has quirks, season still special | 36:56–38:32 |

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Tone & Final Reflection

Both hosts maintain a balanced, knowledgeable, and occasionally candid (fan-voice) tone. They praise Brown’s All-NBA caliber season, but also voice disappointment in how his exit comments may undermine accountability and locker room cohesion. The episode closes with an invitation for Celtics fans to discuss and reflect on Brown’s legacy and public perception post-playoffs.

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Transcript

[John Karalis]

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[John Karalis]

Jaylen Brown calling out the refs, talking about conspiracies, calling out Joel Embiid for flopping. And was he calling out Joe Missoula too? We're going to talk about it now on a bonus bonus Locked on Celtics podcast here. Make sure you're subscribed to get the show daily and get these bonus podcasts. I'm John Corralis. I cover the Celtics for Sports illustrated Celtics on SI. I've been covering the team for about 20 years doing this podcast 410 and today bonus podcast all about Jalen Brown. And we're talking with Tom Westerholm. Bonus applause thank you, Tom. Where do we start with Jalen? Because he, he went on his live stream and he was like, you know what? Season's over, handcuffs are off. Let's start. Let's start leaning into the refs. I think I want to start with the ref stuff, I guess.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah,

[John Karalis]

I understand what he's saying about, like, the push off. I've been doing it all year and now they want to make it an offensive file. And I had, he's like, I had 10 or more offensive fouls and they just seemed like they were targeting me and whatever.

[Tom Westerholm]

I'm like, okay, yep.

[John Karalis]

So I understand that. I understand that. You see guys do it and you're like, why? Why can't I do it? I guess my initial reaction, Tom, is if you think they're targeting you and if you think they're going to call it on you all the time, why do you keep doing it? Why didn't you adjust? And why, like, you can say it's unfair and you can say whatever, and you can make your legitimate case for it if you want. But if you think they're looking for you to do it all the time and calling an offensive file on you every single time you're doing it, then why would you keep doing it in a playoff series when it's costing your team?

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah, it feels like it's a habit thing at that point. Right. It's like, it's just like something that you kind of do subconsciously. If, if, because, because if you, like you said, if you know that, then you have to make some adjustments. Like, you have to do it like it. And I mean, again, I, I agree with you. I, I kind of get where he's coming from. It's, you know, to make a, Make a point of emphasis at the start of the season to call push offs. Absolutely. Like, do it league wide. Right. Like start. You don't try. Try to make it a point of emphasis that makes sense to let a guy do it all year. Because, Because Jalen has been doing it all year. 100 other players have been complaining about it. You know, other fans have been complaining about it. You can see it a lot. Like, that push off has been there all year. I think there was, you know, there were some people on online who were saying that's all he can do. And it's like, that's not fair or true. Like, Jalen is an excellent player who, he's physical for sure. But that's, that's not a bad thing. Lots of people are physical. Like, lots of great players in history have been physical, I think. So I am sympathetic to that argument on his behalf. Right. Like that. Yeah. That it was, it did all of a sudden start to get called and that, you know, I'm also sympathetic to, like, hey, I, I've been playing this way. I'm used to playing this way. I have a rhythm of playing this way, and now I'm. I'm thrown off from that rhythm. Like, again. Yeah, fair enough. Like, that's a difficult, you know, needle to try to thread. All that said, it's. If that was all it took to, to. To kind of throw everything into, into chaos. I mean, that's, that's not ideal. Right. You want to be able to kind of diversify, I think, in those ways. And I also just think too, I mean, it's not a great look this soon after the playoffs. Right. Like a couple, like, you know, two days removed at this point. What would that one day removed to. To Just go on and just immediately start complaining about the refs.

[John Karalis]

And.

[Tom Westerholm]

And that's been all year. It's been all year with this ref stuff. It's. It's just. I don't know, man. I. I don't think that the refs decided the series and because of that, I. It just feels a little like. Well, yeah. I don't know. Like. It just feels like sour grapes at this point, right? A little bit. Yeah. It feels like excuses. And for, you know, from. From a guy who's always talking about like no excuses, it feels like excuses.

[John Karalis]

So, yeah, it does feel like excuses. I don't make you. But Jalen is a master at saying I don't. We don't make any excuses. But here's the excuse. But we don't make any excuses. Like. Yeah, you kind of do.

[Tom Westerholm]

And listen, that's especially this year because again, the refs. All year. All year it's been stuff with the refs like. But a lot of those excuses this year that way.

[John Karalis]

And it has been the referee stuff has been all year long. And some of it is legit. No doubt about it. And he does make a point. It's. I'm not saying that he's entirely wrong about you let something go for all season in other guys. He's using the. The Paul George play where he's pushing on like there. You can be selective about that and fuel conspiracy theories. And this is my biggest thing. You don't need players fueling conspiracy theories. But he is right there. He is not fueling them. He is. He is create. Like he believes. He said there had to be some sort of board, big red board. When Jalen Brown does this call a file like he is telling you, I have this conspiracy theory. That is the definition of. I have a theory that they had a conspiracy that whenever I did this, they conspired to call the foul. It is a literal conspiracy theory. So he's. He's putting that out there and it. It is. It is a bit much. And I don't like to see players kind of give in to that, especially when you could have done other stuff. Like you didn't. First of all, you didn't adjust.

[Tom Westerholm]

You.

[John Karalis]

I know your right habits are formed and sometimes you do that habitually. But you know what? You're an elite player, one of the best players in the league. Spend the shoot around getting your muscle memory into not extending into just doing the shoulder. Spend your. Your pregame getting yourself used to just this. Have a conscious mind of when I see this guy When I go on there, remember, just, just do the. The Peyton Pritchard, not the full extension. You have to remember that like, I'm sorry, man, like you. If you believe that they are looking for it, don't give it to them. And you can complain after the series, after winning the series, that they took away an element of my game that I think everybody does and blah, blah, blah. You can do that. But it was. It's unfortunately, and you can say it's not fair, but if you're trying to win a series, that's something that you have to. It's on you, it's on the player to make the adjustment and figure it out. You it. Man. Even I, a little, you know, nothing of a player in the grand scheme of things when it comes to these guys. One of the first things I learned was I had a person, a coach tell me like, first time down the floor, just go and slam into another. The guy was trying to defend you in the post and see if you get called for an offensive foul, if you do, then you know how the refs are going to call it if you don't. Now you can play physical the whole game. You know, you. I'm. Every one of us is taught that you have to understand how the game is being officiated.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah, yeah. And look, you know, you mentioned Pritchard, right? How much space does Pritchard create with the, with the bump where he doesn't extend? It's significant. Jalen Brown is much bigger and stronger than Peyton Pritchard. And like, if you don't extend, you're still going to create space. If you can, you know, you can create that space without the push off for sure. You know, you're also more athletic than Peyton Pritchard. You've got all this stuff, like options are out there. Like you definitely could have just.

[John Karalis]

Right.

[Tom Westerholm]

You know, I was, I was, I was laughing hearing you talk about that because it just made me think like, you know, Joe Missoula with Romeo Langford. One of the first interactions any of us had with Joe Missoula was with the ping pong paddle, like taping that to Romeo's hand so that he would keep the thumb off the ball. Like. Yeah, just like, you know, like just tie Jalen's arm to his side for. Yeah. You know, for a warm up and you know, be like, all right, now you got to get to the hoop without. Or you. Now you got to create some space without pushing off. Like try some stuff. Because yeah, it. I mean, look, and I think again I I to give him the credit that I think he is due with this argument. Imagine, you know, how did well to give it both sides, right? Imagine how, how difficult it would be for Shea Yelgis Alexander if all of a sudden, you know, him pushing off was being whistled for a foul, right? That, that would be tricky if that if that happened suddenly, he would have to make some adjustments very quickly. But I also think to your point about the conspiracy theories is I think Shay is one of the reasons that Jalen is is talking like this, right? Because he thinks that Shay gets away with stuff. He thinks that Shea flops. He thinks that, that these things, that these things happen and he doesn't get the same credit with the referees. And this comes back to something that we've talked about.

[John Karalis]

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[Tom Westerholm]

And this comes back to something that we've talked about where it's like you don't get the same credit with the referees because you're not as good at the baiting. You know, you're not as good at some of this stuff as other guys are. Like, okay, maybe Shay gets away with some push offs, but he is sneakier about it than Jalen is. Like, it is less noticeable when Shay does it. You can tell when Jalen pushes off in all the season. Again, this is the. To Jalen's credit all season that wasn't being called. Like you could see it. And it wasn't being called at least not consistently, not super often. It did get called more consistently in the playoffs, but it's just calling the same obvious stuff that we were seeing all year. Shay's a little sneakier about it. And again with the foul drawing, like the flopping and all that stuff, because he also talked about that pretty extensively, right. With Joel Embiid is a flopper. All this stuff. Like again, maybe, maybe. But he's good at drawing the actual foul. And Shay Gildas Alexander is also really good at drawing the actual foul. Like these it. I don't. I, I agree with you with like this conspiratorial stuff. I mean, you know, you talk about him fanning the flames. I mean he's like almost self immolating with this stuff, right? Because, because in some ways I do think that he's probably making it less likely that refs are going to want like refs are human too. And I think they, you know, they obviously do their best to ignore this kind of stuff, but they're, you know, getting called out constantly. They're not going to feel like they want to give you calls, you know, like, what. What is this doing for you? So, I don't know. I. I think. I think. I think it just. It kind of cuts in every way. But. But I don't. I don't think that there's a lot of upside to this stuff. The. The. To saying this stuff out loud especially. I think there's zero upside to saying it. Saying this stuff out loud this soon after the season ended. But.

[John Karalis]

So Jaylen said, I've been doing this all season long. I've been. And they didn't call me for it. You understand that? Jaylen Brown was second in the NBA in offensive fouls. Did you know that?

[Tom Westerholm]

I did not know that. No, I did not know that.

[John Karalis]

This regular season, Carl Anthony Towns was first with 65. Number two is Jalen Brown.

[Tom Westerholm]

Let's. Let's also, since we're on a bonus pot and we can have as many as we want. Carl Anthony Towns committed some insane offensive fouls.

[John Karalis]

15 of 15 of his were charges. So, like barreling through Jaylen Brown. Nine of his were charges barreling through people, which means 31 were offensive fouls in either illegal screens.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Karalis]

Or push offs.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Karalis]

And how many illegal screens is Jaylen Brown setting over the course of the season?

[Tom Westerholm]

Right.

[John Karalis]

A handful. Not many.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Karalis]

For sure. So, yeah. I'm just saying. I'm just saying that.

[Tom Westerholm]

Wrong point.

[John Karalis]

Jalen being called for the push off is not exactly the newest thing. It's not like he had zero. It's not like he was, you know, 10 offensive files all season and then 10 in the playoffs, which is what he had, is twice as much as the next person. He had 40 offensive fouls, and 31 of those were either push offs or illegal screens. And we know he doesn't set a ton of screens. Yeah. So that kind of kind of flies in the face of what Jalen is. Is saying. The rule all season long has been don't extend the arm. I don't want to see that arm coming all the way out. All right. So if you're dribbling in that heart, that arm just goes straight out. And I see. If I see your elbow straight, I'm calling that foul. If you keep that elbow like chicken wing, you can do that. And I just think that. Yes. Did they target Jalen a little bit? I don't know. I don't know to what degree, but they were looking for it. They were clearly looking for it. So adjust. But also, how many of them were just grabbing the guy and throwing him like he did. He had a lot of just straight offense. Like, he had a few that you're like, man, that is. You extended the arm. That's an offensive file, man. What do you want me to say? You know, like, that I don't like. I don't like hearing all of this stuff because it does come off as like, hey, man, you. The responsibility here isn't that you got called for 10 offensive fouls. The responsibility is that when Embiid came back and the Celtics didn't play fast, and so the. The. The Sixers come out and they take away the corners and they take away the driving kicks, and that means they're taking away the corner crashes. We. Which puts a lot of pressure on guys to make shots. Jalen and Jason. But Jalen especially took it upon himself to say, okay, now I'm going to isolate. They. They blow up the first Celtics action. Jalen gets the ball, there's no help coming. So he doesn't have that. That pass to make. So instead of saying, let's start another action and see what we can. See if we can unlock something, set the pick a little bit lower, see if we can't get a little something and we just can't get ourselves a little closer to the rim, no, they just. It just became ISO, ISO, ISO. And that's the part if. If there's any sort of responsibility. Like, the number one responsibility that I think that he should have taken is that he himself didn't move the ball as much as he should have. And after game seven, he has the quote. I wish we played the style and trusted that style more with the way they played fast, even throughout the playoffs, even through wins and through losses. Obviously, it's not always the easiest decision, but I wish that style for our team was how we empowered the rest of our group. And you saw tonight how everybody came out and they played their tail off. I wish we trusted that more. So was Jalen saying that, hey, I wanted to play fast and we didn't. Who's he talking about there? Like, now we're getting into. I just feel like a lot of what Jalen is doing post game seven is not my fault. And it's disappointing because all season long he's been great, and now it feels like he's on a big it's not my fault tour. And I think it's kind of like tainting some of the stuff that I've been one of his biggest, like, cheerleaders this season about how he was. He should be a First team, all NBA guy. And he. I think he's a Hall of Famer and all that stuff. I'm just a. A touch disappointed here that he's going on a not my fault tour. And that's what it feels like to me. You tell me if I'm wrong because I'll. I'll reevaluate myself if I'm wrong. But it just. That's what it feels like to me.

[Tom Westerholm]

No, for sure does. And it's funny too, because I think it was. I mean, I can't remember exactly which one, but after game four, five, game six, one of those games, I mean, you know, he's out there, you know, taking accountability, like saying, like, you know, I got to do better. I got to try to do this stuff better. But, you know, I mean, some of what he was saying was I have to do a better job of imposing my will or, you know, playing with more force or whatever it is. And it's like. Well, I don't know that that precisely was the issue, you know, but, you know, but after those games, right, he is. He is kind of given, like. And hey, like, you know, I got to be better. I got to be better. So it. Yeah, it is kind of odd. I mean, again, I think for me, this is one of the reasons why, I guess I, I don't know, that I would be making, you know, doing Twitch streams this quick after things, right? Like, let things marinate a little bit, kind of, you know, get your feet under yourself. Get, get, get. I. I mean, look, I mean, you can do whatever you want, right?

[John Karalis]

You're.

[Tom Westerholm]

You have free will. You're, you know, NBA player. Like, you get to, you know, you can. We really. Do.

[John Karalis]

We really have free will? Let's explore that concept now.

[Tom Westerholm]

Well, we are on a bonus pod again, lots of time here, but I, I guess I. I think if it were me, I probably would have taken some time to. Before I started, you know, I know you gotta, you know, you gotta do your post game presser. You gotta, you know, say whatever you got to say there, you know, your exit interview, whatever it might be. But, you know, just then kind of take some time and kind of let things settle down a little bit, like, before you start saying some of the stuff. Because, yeah, it does come across that way. I mean, you know, like, maybe he wants to say this stuff, right? Maybe he. Maybe he feels that, you know, that the Celtics game plan was wrong and he would have liked to have seen it a different way. Maybe he, you know, is really. Listen every time he talks about how fun this season is, right? How fun this was his favorite season of all time. It's like, it's hard not to hear that and see that and be like, okay, well what made it more fun? You know, what is it that made it more fun this year than other years? Like, it's hard not to see that and wonder about that. And like, I don't know, maybe he doesn't mean it that way. He hasn't explicitly said it that way, the way that I'm explicitly not currently presently saying it. But like, it's hard not to wonder, right? Like, it's hard not to. It's hard not to hear what he's saying and just kind of take it literally.

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[John Karalis]

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[Tom Westerholm]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[John Karalis]

You know, and we got like, Baylor, Baylor's a crazy man. Ugo's a crazy man. We figured all this stuff out.

[Tom Westerholm]

Somebody's inventing nicknames for Baylor Shireman.

[John Karalis]

It's unclear whether, like, right. Like that whole, that whole thing was like he, he, I'm sure, like the locker room full of like, younger guys and kind of bigger personalities. I mean, there, there were bigger personalities in there this year.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Karalis]

And that, that definitely enhances things for sure. So I don't want to say that this season was all, you know, extra fun for Jalen just because it was Jalen's season for 60 games of it or whatever, whatever 50, whatever games. But that has to be part of it because he has said explicitly, he has said I wanted to prove that I can be this person and I have. And listen, of course you want to prove that stuff. But.

[Tom Westerholm]

And he was spectacular all year. Like we said it a thousand times. Like he was amazing.

[John Karalis]

And look, there. There is definitely. There's a human nature element to this. We all want to prove something. I want to prove stuff all the time when it comes to I want to prove that I have the best podcast. I want to prove that I'm the best writer and Even if, even if people would be like, john, no, but that, that's something that drives you, right? Like this drives me. Like I want to, I want people to, to feel that and say that. And so I'm going to do things that hopefully make people. And when I hear that, I feel good about myself. And when Jalen hears that stuff, I'm sure he feels good about himself. Jalen, Jalen always needs something to rail against. And this, this is the other aspect of his personality that, that's very obvious. And he has even said as much. Joe has said this too. You can tell Jalen, you can sit there and have a five minute conversation and think you're being complimentary in those five minutes and he will find 20 seconds of it to be like, well, what did he mean by that? And he'll take that and latch onto it and he'll use that as some sort of fuel and motivation. And that's how he is. And that's how a lot of these players are. They're not entirely like, there's a mental instability there that they need to, to fuel them because that's what makes them great. I say this all the time. Very few well adjusted athletes become like MVP level, all NBA level. Like, there's got to be some kind of thing in you that makes you work to the level you need to work, that makes you that good. And most well adjusted people will be like, I've done a lot of work today. I deserve a break. I've shot. Listen, I'm, I'm one of those people too. I would, when I was playing, I'd say I've shot what I needed to shoot. I've done my job, I've done my work. And I mean, I was never, ever, ever going to be close to anything an NBA player. But I also understand, looking back on it, like I didn't have that like craziness in me. That's like, you know what? I'm going to break into the gym at 2 in the morning just so I get some shots up. That, that kind of crazy thing. Like, I'm going to go shoot outside in the snow just because I need to get some shots up. No, I was like, you know what, I'm a normal person. I'm going to chill out, I'm going to have some pizza, I'm going to play some video games with my friends and like, I'll just shoot tomorrow. But those guys don't have that. And so I understand, like some of this stuff that comes from Jalen is just, he Needs something to be, hey, they're against me, so I need to prove that. So I think one of the mistakes that we make. I'm going to end my rant shortly. One of the mistakes that we make is we apply normal person mentality to. I say this with all, all due respect, crazy person thinking. Because these athletes have to be crazy people. Like Michael Jordan sat there in that documentary and took everything personally. Like, that's not a person who's well adjusted. He's not right. Like, I'm not.

[Tom Westerholm]

Other great players along with him were like, something's wrong with that dude.

[John Karalis]

Something's wrong with that. Larry Bird, Larry Bird was not right. Right. You know, he, he said it as he said it. These guys are self aware enough after the fact to be like, yeah, when I was playing, I was not right. You need that, you need that thing to be not right. So you can be like Kobe Bryant Mamba mentality. We can, we can, you know, be, be like, we can question some of that. But no, you need that thing in you to make you better than everybody else. Like it's, it's how. I can't even find a better word for how. What I've been using. So some of this that Jalen is doing, I'm sure is I need, I need something to be against me so when I come back next season, I have somebody to prove wrong. And that is certainly an element of that. I just wish some of this stuff was done differently. And some of the comments like, I don't like, I don't like the. I wish we trusted that style more. I don't like that because that comes off as well did. If you wanted to play that way. You're, you're basically saying, I wish I thought this, but I wish someone else saw this sooner. Who are you talking about? That has to be, that has to be the coach. It has to be somebody on the team has to be somewhere within the confines of that locker room. Who is he talking about?

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah, yeah, I, I mean it certainly comes across as Joe, right?

[John Karalis]

That it does feels like it.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah. I mean, baldly, that's what it, that's what it sounds like. I, I agree with. I, I don't have any, I don't, I don't have that much to add to what you said. I think I, I agree. I mean, you know, I think. And the thing about Jalen, right, is that, that, that, you know, that level of, of something not quite being right has driven him every year. Right. Like, you know, he's, he's Improved so much. So every single off season, he comes back and it's like, oh, Jalen Brown got better again, you know?

[John Karalis]

Yes.

[Tom Westerholm]

Like, you know, it does benefit him. Or. Or it has so far in a lot of ways. It's. It's clearly made him a better player. It's made him, you know, one of the best players in the NBA. And, you know, and if. And if. And if he needs that, right.

[John Karalis]

He.

[Tom Westerholm]

If he needs somebody saying, oh, he's one of the best players in the NBA for him to be like, what do you mean one of.

[John Karalis]

Yeah, right, right, right, right, right.

[Tom Westerholm]

Fine. Like. Like that. That. Yeah, you're right. That. A lot of professional athletes use that because. Because, you know, when you get to this level, the margins are so small that it's like, you know, that. That. That might be the separator. Right. There might be a player out there who doesn't take it that way. And that's the difference between, you know, being so motivated that you come back and make an all NBA first team versus coming back and just kind of being a good role player again, you know, Like. Yeah, yeah, it kind of is what it is. But I don't know. I. I mean, I guess it's. I. I'm really interested to see kind of how this goes forward because I. I do think that. I think the Celtics are going to have to examine some things this off season. And I. I wonder how. Going into the off season with this stuff. Right. I wonder how that's gonna. How that's gonna play as the Celtics consider things.

[John Karalis]

Yeah. Who knows? Look, I. I'm proponent of playing faster, and I know he is, too, to a degree, but it's not like the Celtics were a fast team.

[Tom Westerholm]

No, this.

[John Karalis]

This season. Like, no.

[Tom Westerholm]

Right. Yeah.

[John Karalis]

I. I remember talking to Josh Minot and he was like, we might be the fastest team in the league this year. Like, wow. Fastest, fastest team in the league. That. That's incredible. The Celtics were the third slowest team pace wise in the playoffs and 30th in pace overall in the regular season. So once again, the slowest team pace wise, which not. I mean, there's difference between tempo and pace and the pace that just means number of possessions, but still, they were supposed to be fast. And a season where the majority of it was led by Jaylen Brown, they slowed down. They slowed down a lot. And so that type of play wasn't there all season either. So. Right. I just. I'll finish my point with this. Jalen has gotten himself into not trouble, but he has had to kind of clarify some statements in the past. He had, he had something where, I forget who it was. Damn. Where he made, he had a tweet and it's like he had to clarify, like, I wasn't talking about that. I was, you know, it's kind of started like a little bit of a storm. Jalen is, Jalen has emotional moments and he very much feels like he is a, a targeted person in the media. He, I'm sure this podcast isn't going to help. He's going to, like, he'll, he'll, like, if this gets back to him, he'll be like, see, this is what I'm talking about. But I think he gets himself into trouble. I think he gets himself into the trouble by like, I don't want to, I don't want to stifle anybody's expression. It just sometimes you, you have to pick better words and you have to understand how things are going to be perceived. Sometimes you got to say things. You can't just say things and be like, take you, I'm going to put out there and whatever, whatever, and then get mad at the results. Like, I think, I think he has his own motivations for saying these things. And I don't, I don't think that he's trying to be coming from a bad place on some of this stuff. But it's, sure, it's hard not to take it that way. It's, it's hard not to come out of this and see his stream and his post game comments and be like, boy, he's really shirking some of this responsibility. Like, he's really sitting there being like, man, I wish some of these other things didn't happen. I wish the refs didn't do this and I wish Joellen Bead didn't flop, which he did flop. And Kelly Oubrey flopped and, but it just.

[Tom Westerholm]

Right. But, but I, you know, Kelly Oubre flopped because he was dressing up the contacts to make it. You know, the contact that was happening. Right. Like, that's, and that's more.

[John Karalis]

The Celtics should have flopped more.

[Tom Westerholm]

Sure. Absolutely. More, more players, more players should have flopped against Jalen earlier in the season, you know, like.

[John Karalis]

Right, right.

[Tom Westerholm]

Uber proved that it would work. Yeah.

[John Karalis]

So it's interesting. I, I, I want to chalk up for now, I want to chalk up a lot of this to the immediate aftermath of a disappointing end to the season for sure.

[Tom Westerholm]

But man, a disappointing season in which he was great. Again, I don't want to, like, no,

[John Karalis]

I don't want to gloss over that. Yeah, no, like, he, he should be a first team OMB guy now. He. He probably won't be because I think people are going to put Cade over it. And I think Luca getting that, like, Luca's gonna get on and whatever. I think he should be first team all NBA. I think he should be no worse than fourth in the MVP voting. I think that he's, as I said, Jaylen Brown is a Hall of Fame player. He's going to have his number retired by the Boston Celtics. And those are absolutely. Those are things that should happen. He is already a Celtics legend. He will be passing a lot of big, big names in a lot of big, big lists. He is. He deserves a ton of accolades. I wish he understood how people feel about him in that way because he is a huge part of what the Celtics have done and if they win another championship, he will be a huge part of that as well. But just sometimes this, I need something to rail against comes off as you. You. You're making yourself the victim. You. You. It's part of it, like the mentality. You. You have to make yourself the victim so you can fight against something, but when you're doing it publicly, it's hard for people to be like, why are you making yourself a victim, dude, you. What is it? You don't have to do this. So that. Yeah, it's nuts. But anyway. All right, I get. I guess we'll wrap it up there, Tom.

[Tom Westerholm]

All right.

[John Karalis]

Appreciate you as always, Tom.

[Tom Westerholm]

Appreciate you, man.

[John Karalis]

And I do appreciate all of you listening and watching. I mean, tell me what you think. There's going to be a ton of Jalen Brown. Just the stands. I know there's Jason Tatum stands and Jalen Brown. Like, this is going to be the reaction to. Is going to be interesting. People who love Jalen Brown unconditionally are going to be up in arms about this one. But listen, I, I have a high, high opinion about Jalen. I just wish some of the things that he says would be said differently. That's the show. Thank you for listening. Thank you for watching. Please share the podcast. Tell everybody they should be listening to and watching the Lockdown Celtics podcast. Here on the Lockdown Podcast Network is your team. Every day, Liberty Mutual customizes your car and home insurance to save you money. That's it. That's the ad. No bells and whistles. No, guys, I said no bells and whistles. No. Trombones are fine. Visit libertymutual.com and make the switch today. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.

[Ross Jackson]

What's up everybody? This is Ross Jackson, one of the hosts of the Locked On Podcast Network. And if you haven't heard yet, we started a club and we would love for you to join. It's called the Everydayer Club and one of the things that you get as a member is an ad free version of the podcast that you're listening to right now. It works with whatever podcast app you already use. Same episodes every day, just no ads. There's also a members only group chat for fans of your team, plus a lot more. You can check it out by tapping the Everydayer Club link in the show notes.