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Locked On Celtics - Daily Podcast On The Boston Celtics
Jaylen Brown's 'Validation?', Jayson Tatum's return, and are the Celtics contenders?
00:35:28
Jaylen Brown earns an All-Star starting nod, but is "validation" really the right word? John Karalis of Celtics on SI digs into Brown’s evolution with the Boston Celtics, what this milestone means for the team’s dynamic with Jayson Tatum, and why the “Jayson vs. Jaylen” debate needs to end. The conversation spotlights Brown’s mentality, the chemistry with coach Joe Mazzulla, and how both stars position themselves for postseason success. Attention turns to Jayson Tatum’s highly anticipated comeback, analyzing his latest on-court workout and the crucial steps remaining before his return. Can the Celtics truly contend for a championship without major moves, or will reinforcements at center be essential for a deep playoff push? Karalis breaks down the Eastern Conference landscape, possible trade scenarios involving players like Anfernee Simons and Sam Hauser, and what Brad Stevens might be “cooking” ahead of the NBA trade deadline.
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It's all Right now on the Lockdown Celtics Podcast. Welcome back to the Lockdown Celtics Podcast right here on the Lockdown Podcast Network. Where does your team every day your team is the Boston Celtics. I talk about them Monday through Friday bonus podcast when they play in the weekend. Like this weekend, Friday and Saturday nights. You get podcasts all week long, all weekend long, all next week. So make sure you're subscribed wherever. Get your podcast. You can watch a show on YouTube and join me John Corrales, beat writer for SI covering the Celtics for the Celtics on SI page I've been covering the Celtics for about 20 years now. I've been doing this podcast for 10 and I've written a couple books about this team. This podcast today is brought to you by FanDuel. Join the FanDuel app. Open it up. Sign 6 to 7:30pm on Fridays to see what's dropping at NBA Happy Hour. Only on the FanDuel app. Today we're talking about a couple of leftovers from the the road trip here, which really this road trip is just continuing. They come home like this game against the Pacers on Wednesday is just an extension of the road trip. They went to Indy, Miami, where else? Atlanta, Detroit, Boston, Brooklyn. Like this is. This is basically you go home, drop your stuff off. It's an extension of the road trip. But we'll talk about later on we'll get into whether the Celtics can truly contend during the second seed in the East. That game against the Pistons shows that they that would be an incredible series. Can the Celtics actually contend for a championship Part of that is Jason Tatum's workout in Detroit or half an hour outside of Detroit. I mentioned it briefly on the podcast, but I'll get into it a little bit more because it was a whole big thing, and I. I think there is meaningful. Something meaningful to that. But also, I'm not sure how close he really is, so we'll. We'll get into that. But I want to start with Jalen Brown's validation. That's validation, not vindication, as I had on my. For some reason, I got vindication stuck in my brain, but it was his validation that his. That we're talking about. He was asked after the game, which is tough because we. We wanted to ask him before the game about all this. Excuse me. And I. I feel like. Because they had lost, and I. I just didn't think he. He was very happy about. To be honest with you, I don't think he was very happy about the loss. And then after the game, the national championship game was on in the locker room, and I think everybody just moved on from the loss, and the game was on. It was exciting finish. And people are watching it and they're talking about it, and I think Jalen was still, like, fuming from the game. I don't think he liked exactly how that was going, but it was fine. It was not a big deal. But he. I think he was just kind of fuming at the end of the game. So he wasn't exactly in the. In the best headspace, necessarily. I think that his answer might have been different if he was asked before the game, like. Like we had hoped. But he doesn't normally talk before games, so he was asked about being named a starter, and it was phrased as. Is this some sort of, like, validation? Which I understand why it was asked that way, because there's, you know, there's this perception of, you know, Jalen was always next to Jason Tatum. It was always Jason Tatum number one, Jalen Brown number two. If one of those guys had to sacrifice, it was always Jalen Brown. And he's been saying for years now that he is taking a big step back. He's the one that's really sacrificing the most and kind of has let it be known, like, I guys, I am capable of a lot more. You guys don't see it, and I'm. I'm doing what's best for the team, and. Okay, that's fine. Now, whether people believed it or not, there are plenty of you who are watching and listening who, who said, yes, he's absolutely right. He is capable of more. There are plenty of people who are like, you know what? No, I don't know if he's capable of more. And this season, you can say this is a validation of his stance that I've told you I was capable of more. This does validate my kind of consistent, you know, I've been telling you guys, but that's not. He didn't like that. He said, you know, his answer was, I mean, I guess not for me. He said, I'm a very confident guy, so I don't allow people to tell me what my validation is. So right away, this is like, this is part confidence. This is part being contrarian. This is Jalen very much. He wants to dictate the terms of engagement, so to say validation. He doesn't like that word validation. And I said it's the wrong four syllable word. And I think the better word for him is culmination. This is the culmination of all of the work that he's put in. Because when the opportunity came to show everybody, he showed it. So it's not like, hey, guys, I told you, you didn't believe me. This, you know, and all of that stuff. I'm. I can see where Jalen is coming from, where he said, if I say this is validation, when he says I don't allow people to tell me what my validation is, I can see what he's saying because it's like if, if I say validation, yes, it's validation. That means I have valued. I value your opinions. And proving this to you, the general, you, maybe the media, maybe the general people who doubt him was important to me. And I don't think he ever wants to let on, even if it is. I don't think he ever wants to let on that it is. He wants this to be. I knew it. I didn't have to prove it to you. I knew it. People knew it. People close to me knew it. So culmination to me is a better word for Jalen to say. Look, everything I've been working towards, everything I've known I can do. It's. This is the natural kind of, like, product of all of this. I have put in all this time at the, at the gym, at the, in the pool, in the, you know, various, like, basketball courts around the world, honing my skills, honing my body, all of that stuff. And here it is, of course, I made first team or of course I was named a starter. Why wouldn't I be named a starter? This is. That is the Natural product. You know, one plus one. Like, add up all of these. One, one, one, one, one. It equals whatever number that is that gets you to be a starter. Like, that is the culmination of everything that Jalen has done. So I get it. This is such an interesting. He is such an interesting guy in that regard, and it does make things interesting for when Jason does come back. People have asked me, like, why do I think certain things about. I can't say anything about Jalen without people who love Jaylen Brown getting on me. I can't say anything about Jason without people who love Jason getting on me. I just. I just want to say this. You do not have to pick one or the other. You do not have to pick one or the other. Just, they're both great. They're both great. And if you think, hey, Jalen's always been capable of more, and here it is, proof, great, celebrate. Take your victory lap. But it doesn't mean you have to be like, one over the other. This stupid Jalen vs Jason thing that I see online sometimes is. Is just ridiculous, and people need to stop that. I. I don't even know what I was. What I was getting at from there, but it really is interesting. Jalen is a super interesting guy, and he did say it's grateful. I'm grateful because I know it means a lot to my support group. They knew the type of talent I was from day one, and it means a lot to. To them to see me in these spaces. So there's a little bit of like, hey, the people who love me love to see this, and that's great for them. Jalen's always going to play it cool. No, he's never going to let in. He's never going to let anybody else take his power away from him. He's never going to let anybody else say, this is how you should feel. Even if that person is right, Jalen's not going to let you have that over him. It's. It's no wonder that he and Joe Missoula kind of work, because he and Joe are very similar. I think they're similarly, like, crazy in a good way. Like, I don't think either of them is particularly well adjusted when it comes to just, you know, like, if you ask me if that was validation, I'd say, yeah, it does validate a lot of things. People, you know, would say what they want to say, and I always knew I could do this, and, you know, it proves me right. So that is. That is a sort of validation for sure. But Jalen will not accept that. Validation is a I'm giving you the power and I'm never going to give you the power. That's, that's, I swear that Jalen was motivated by Cade Cunningham being picked first, like getting first in, in player votes. He was asked about that. It was, it was late. He was walking away anyway. He didn't really give a great good answer. But I think that he was motivated that more players voted for Cade Cunningham than voted for him. And he kind of, he wants to prove stuff. He always wants to prove stuff. He's always going to find something, somewhere to prove something. So that's Jalen. Jalen is going to be in that mindset. Jason is going to be in his mindset and that's right now coming back to play. And I, I'm, I think the workout, like there's, there's some discussion about what was he really trying to prove with that workout because that was not by accident. How close is he? What can we expect? And eventually what does that mean for the Celtics actually being a contender now this year? We'll get to that when I come back. Today's show is brought to you by FanDuel. 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On the locked on NBA feed. Trust Jayson Tatum put on a little bit of a show outside of Detroit. He was out there, was dunking. He was going through things very interesting. And the consensus amongst us in the media was like, hey, you don't just do that for no reason in front of everybody. You could have easily waited until the media left. You could have easily waited. Didn't have to be a big public show. But there he was out there doing his drills, doing some shooting, getting, you know, dunking, which I think the, you know, the concept of a dunk is like, hey, wow, he got up there and dunked. Jason is a big dude. It's like 610. Getting up to dunk is not that big of a deal for him. It's easy. It's very easy for him to do so. I'm glad that he's doing it. But I, I think that first of all, it feels like there is a message behind the workout. Let all the media, hey, take a look. Here I am. Put it out there, tweet it out. Everybody get excited. He's. He's starting to work his way back. And I've been saying from the beginning that this is going to be. He's coming back this season. I know he's coming back this season. I don't know it because I've heard any information. I just, I'm just saying that I know he's coming back this season because the initial timeline that's been talked about from people within his circle, his dad was eight to nine months. And here we are, we are at eight months. We're eight months and a week, I think. And so nine months is right at the All Star break. So that's still plenty of time. And I, I'm happy to repeat myself. I want him back this season. I want him to shake off the rust. I want him to figure out who he is post injury. I want him to, to play with some of the guys who are on the team. I want him to be, to kind of go through all of the steps, shake off the rust, and not have the first NBA basketball that he plays be day one of next season. I want it to be this season. I want it, I want, whatever it is, mid February, early March. I want him to go through all that stuff. I want him to figure it all out and then it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter to me if it causes a losing streak, a winning streak, or whatever streak. I don't care. I, I, this season, as I've said, is all gravy. And I don't want to take away from the guy what the guys are doing now, and we'll get into what the guys are capable of now. But I also know that they're going nowhere without Jayson Tatum, right? They're, they're really like, hate to spoil the, the third segment a little bit, but they're not really going all that far without Jason Tatum. Like, and if, if there was no Jaylen Brown, just to be clear to everybody, if it was reversed, I would say the same thing. They won't go that far without Jaylen Brown. So they, they need Tatum to be peak Jason Tatum next season. So get him on the floor now. Go through the, whatever progression. This is basically rehab. I've said that so many times on the podcast. Sure. Everybody kind of could just go along with me. So it's, it's really not that big of a. Like, I, I've said this before. At the same time, he's, he, he's probably coming back. He wouldn't do all this stuff without him kind of like coming back. And there, there is something to the possibility of him being, I think, Jayson Tatum. Now, I want to be clear. Brad Stevens, a month, a little bit more than a month ago, talked about the steps, right. He said there are strength, strength thresholds that have to be met. There's several weeks of progressions after that, scripted against small groups, scripted against bigger groups, scripted in five on five, unscripted, random all the way up through those. That's the progression. So what we saw in Detroit or Birmingham was really, from looking at the, the layout for what Brad Stevens said, that felt like scripted against small groups. He was following. He was very clearly following a progression. He was going up against two, three guys. It wasn't scripted big groups. It wasn't like multiple people on offense, multiple people on defense. That was that felt like scripted small group stuff. So scripted against bigger groups has to happen. Scripted five on five has to happen. Unscripted, random has to happen. So it's as much as that is enticing, exciting to have Jason Tatum on the floor and showing us this stuff. There are still steps that he has to take. But at the same time, he doesn't look like if, if, if this wasn't like, if I didn't know he was hurt. He dropped me off in that gym. And you watch him, you say, okay, it's Jason Tatum shooting around. Like, this is, this is Jason. This is what he does. Right? He's just getting ready for a game tonight. So I, I wouldn't think, I would never have thought that this is a, an aberrant. He didn't look like a guy that's coming back from some sort of injury. So it's encouraging to see. Can he, can he come back early enough, go through all the things that I'm talking about and then at some point be Jason Tatum again? Can it be, what percentage of Jason Tatum does he need to be to. To change the calculus of this season for the Celtics and the NBA? Does he. What if he's 50%? What does that get you? What if he's 75%? What does that get you? What kind of minutes can he give you in the playoffs? Let's explore that because the question of whether the Celtics can really contend depends obviously heavy on that, if they're going to actually contend this season. And when I say contend, mean after, actually make it through and have a real chance at winning a championship. Do the Celtics have a real chance at winning a championship? Let's talk about that when I come back. Today's show is brought to you by Quo New Year New Systems. This is the time when a lot of us look at the messier parts of how we run our businesses and think there has to be a better way. And there is. 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You're in every day or you're with me every Monday through Friday and Saturday and Sunday. You know, with a busy month like this, how about joining the Everydayer club? Joining me for ad free audio compatible with every major podcasting app. Joining me on the Discord server for conversations throughout the day with your fellow fans, NBA fans, Celtics fans and merchandise drops and more. It's all in the everyday Club. Locked on Celtics.Super Cast.com Locked on Celtics.Supercast.com Go check it out. It's five bucks a month, 50 bucks for the year if you want to pay up front. That's two months free. So go check that out. So the Pistons Celtics game was so like so playoff like. You just wonder if they're going to meet. Right now they'd be the top two seeds. So if the Celtics can hold on to their seed. And right now the Knicks are imploding. If the Pistons can hold on to the top seed, which, you know, they're. They look pretty good there, those two teams. If they met in the playoffs, it'd be the conference finals. If they may, if they meet in the Playoffs. And it's very likely the winner of that series is going to the NBA Finals, which, like the Pistons in the NBA Finals, it's not outrageous to think that, but boy, that would be ahead of schedule. The Celtics in the NBA Finals, that would be a surprise. That's, that's not what this year's team was built for. Even if you are optimistic about this team's abilities, you have to admit that's not what this team was built for. You traded away Porzingis and Holiday. You let Horford and Cornett walk. You brought in Garza, Minot. That's not like, that's not how you build a contender. But look, the Celtics, to their credit, like I said, Joe is crazy. He's too competitive. He's never going to let the Celtics tank. Jalen Brown is also similarly like competitively crazy and was never going to let this opportunity to go by without being an all NBA level player. Like this is. We had questions before and it's obvious those of us who did have questions are like, well, question answered. So. But what would it take for them to be a contender? First of all, obviously you need a second option, like a real second option. And this year it would be Tatum. I think Tatum coming back would instantly raise the Celtics. Just, just him coming back would instantly raise the Celtics to like, oh, okay, they are a real contender. Because even if he has a Victor Wembanyama type minutes restriction, right? The, the 20 plus minutes when he's been coming back from injury, if they, if the Celtics treat him with kid gloves, you could kind of figure out a pattern of him playing off the bench where he would be, I think, you know, effective in the playoffs are a different story. And that really, I don't want to push too hard with Tatum, but if he's feeling good enough, if he's ready, if he's back and healthy and everybody involved is like, yeah, he's good, he's ready to go, then you do it. You do it with a, like a reasonable minutes restriction and you don't push him too hard. So is he going to play 42 minutes in a game in the playoffs? No. But what, what does 28 minutes of Jason Tatum look like in a playoff series, you know, in the first round, second round in the East? That's, that's not, that's not bad at all. I mean, let's look at right now, let's just say this is how things go and they stick this way. With the Celtics at 2, the 26 series would be the Orlando Magic which, no, it would be the 2 7. So what I'm talking about 3, 6. The 27 series would be one of Cleveland, Miami, Chicago, Atlanta. At this point, throw in Milwaukee as a possibility, Charlotte as a way outside possibility. Probably not, but they're only three games out. But okay, Cleveland, Miami, Chicago, Atlanta, Milwaukee is in that mix. Orlando would be in that mix, too, because they're tied with Cleveland 25 minutes adjacent. You don't even need that much to beat Miami. You don't need that much to beat the Chicago Bulls, and you don't need that much to beat the Atlanta Hawks. Cleveland and Orlando would be an interesting playoff series, and Tatum would really be a big help there. But getting through that would be not that difficult. Then what? The Knicks, the Raptors, the Sixers? That's. This is not a playoff run. That really kind of makes me, like, worry, right? I'm not. I'm not biting my fingernails at. At the competition here. The Celtics have a real chance at not just winning a playoff series. Like, I came into this season thinking, succeed, maybe you win a playoff series. Probably not, but maybe now I'm like, they've risen to the second seed and things could change. Obviously, I've talked about it. Things could change. But if they stay up there, which, look, the Knicks are a mess. They're talking about trading Carl Anthony Towns. The Raptors are kind of, you know, okay, the Sixers. Who knows what the Sixers are going to be? They could be great. They could suck. Orlando can't figure it out. They're always hurt. Cleveland can't figure it out. They're always hurt. Everyone else, Miami, Chicago, Atlanta, Milwaukee. There. There's just. There's nothing there that scares anybody except for Giannis. I don't know. The Bulls are the Bull. I mean, I'm sorry. The Bucks. The Bucks are going to be buyers. Allegedly, they are. Zach Lowe says that those guys are going to be buyers. He also said that he heard he's hearing that the Celtics are going to be buyers. So if the seller's going to be buyers, what does that mean? Who do they add? So I don't know what's going to happen. Like, I don't think the Celtics need to make a move or. Or I don't think the Celtics should make a move specifically for this year. Unless they think Tatum is coming back, he can help. And that brings them to another level. Like, it. It's possible that they could do an all in kind of thing this year, and if they do, if you make a move, you're like, wow, that is an incredible move for, you know, for right now. Then that to me would tell me that Jason Tatum is coming back and will be. They have confidence that he will be. Be ready. Like, ready ready. I think the Celtics could be buyers just in the. They're looking. They're looking to upgrade, and they're always looking to upgrade. They're not sellers. They. That's for sure. There'll be buyers in a. A kind of more restrained way. You know, like, if a good trade is there, they will make a buying, buy now, win now kind of trade, but they're not going to go overboard and say, okay, here's Anthony Simons and Sam Houser and, you know, just to get the. Whoever is available and. And who cares? I don't think they're going to do that. I think a move that they're going to make, if there's a move to be made, it's going to be a very measured move without overreacting to what this season could be. And I think the biggest thing is the Thunder still exists. The spurs still exists, The Nuggets still exist. Those three teams, the Celtics have lost to all of those teams. Well, not OKC because they haven't played them yet, but the Rockets. They've lost to the Rockets. The, the getting to the Finals, it's all, you know, who knows what happens? You get to the finals and you can't. You can't, like, play scared just to say, like, hey, this move is going to get us to the Finals, but we're too afraid of okc, San Antonio and Denver. But reality is that you got to be good enough to give yourself a chance to beat those teams. So you can't just be good enough to get there. You want to be good enough to get there and have a chance. So can the Celtics be contenders? Like, it would take Tatum being back and like, back enough in a way where I don't know if the number's 70%, 80%, but something. Some. A high percentage. Even if he's just playing 25 minutes, 28 minutes a game in the playoffs, it would still have to be like a high percentage production with, you know, with Tatum. And I would be happy to have him coming off the bench in that regard. And you just say, you know, you. You get him in a. In a sub pattern where he becomes the Jordan Walsh minutes. And all of a sudden, Jordan, you know, you upgrade Jordan Walsh to Jason Tatum, things change significantly, and you still have Jordan Walsh sitting there on the bench, you know, and that just knocks down like maybe Baylor Scheimen doesn't play anymore. But you know, whatever. You need number one, you need Tatum to be there and available. Number two. I do think you need to make another move. You do need to add to this team if they're going to be true contenders this year. They do need some help at the center spot because it's not nothing to do with Namishkeda. It's more like you can't have, you can't. You got to have another big kind of rim protect. You need somebody to. You. The defense can't take the big. As big a hit as it does with Garza on the floor. Like Garza's strength is. I'm going to get you more possessions. We're going to keep the ball alive. I'm going to hit a couple of shots for you. We're going to live with the defensive stuff. We're going to hope that you miss some shots. We're just going to maximize our offense. That can't be how the playoffs go because it's just too, it's going to be. He's going to be too targeted. It's going to be too tough. You need somebody else to work alongside Kayla whether Keita starts or the new guy comes off the bench or vice versa. Either way, I don't care. Keita is obviously a big plus for the Celtics on defense. You need another guy to help in that regard to be similar. So if the Celtics are truly going to contend, they do need to make a move. I again caution. Just don't overreact to this season. Don't. If you're going to move Anthony Simons, which I think if this is how it goes like then you gotta, you gotta make sure you're bringing back a high quality long term player. Maybe it's Sam Houser that gets moved, maybe it's Hauser and Walt. Maybe you make a, a different move and you, you package a couple of players and you bring back a, you know, you, you go, you go Hauser and maybe it's just Hauser and Ugo and which would suck but you keep Simons and, and you, you trade away some, some young wings and you bring back a player and, and you just at that point you're, you're going for it. If Tatum's back and you, you keep Simons and, and you bring in another center that way then you know Simons can make up for some of the shooting that you lose. And you, you've got Tatum coming in to make up for a whole lot of that shooting that you lose it. It. I can see a path. I don't know what. I don't know what Brad Stevens is cooking, but he's always cooking something. And the one thing that I've learned very quickly with Brad Stevens is if I don't see it, I'm not going to be trying to guess it because I'm never going to be right. I'm just never going to be right when it comes to Brad because. Because he's just. He's always two, three steps ahead and it's. I. Whatever. Whatever he comes up with, I have to, like, take a second, go back and be like, how did I not see this coming? Because he's brilliant is what it is. He's brilliant and whatever. So I don't think the Celtics can contend without Tatum coming back. I don't think the Celtics can contend without making a move. This team, as currently constructed, can get you a playoff, one series win, depending on how it breaks, maybe two. I think this team ceiling with just. Without anything else with Tatum not coming back or Tatum coming back and being like 50 of himself or something, not being Jason Tatum for. So, like, that team is not getting past Detroit. And they're ceiling to me as conference finals, which would still be amazing and that would open up a whole lot this summer, but that, that team is not a true contender. You need other things. You need Tatum, you need to move to be like, oh, wait, now the Celtics all of a sudden are a contender? All right, we'll see how it goes. We'll be back tomorrow. Tomorrow, Celtics pacers at home. I'll be at that game. So post game podcast after that. Make sure you're subscribed. Watch the show on YouTube. Really do appreciate you being here every Monday through Friday. Bonus podcast. Like I said, this weekend, two games Friday, Saturday. So it's going to be podcast like crazy. So subscribe and now. Would love it if you shared the podcast. Tell everybody they should be listening to and watching the Lockdown Celtics podcast here on the Lockdown podcast network. It's your team every day. Not to brag or anything, But Arby's new $7.99 meat in three box is kind of a big deal. The other guys give you just one side. We give you three sides. Not to brag. You get a meaty sandwich, curly fries, mott sticks, a sweet treat and a drink, all for just $7.99. It's more meal for your money. More meal for your money. More meal for your money. Where'd that come from? Arby's we have the meats and participating Arby's for a limited time. Mic check 12 Are we recording? Hi, I'm Michelle Bernstein, an award winning chef, restaurateur and mom. I have a lot on my plate, including my psoriatic arthritis symptoms. That's why I was prescribed Cosentyx. It helps me move better. Cosentyx Secukenumab is prescribed for people 2 years of age and older with active psoriatic arthritis. 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