Joe Mazzulla's QUEST for Celtics TOUGHNESS | Tom Thibodeau SPILLS Knicks' Secrets to Celtics

Summary

Locked On Celtics Podcast: Joe Mazzulla's Quest for Toughness & Tom Thibodeau Spills Knicks' Secrets

Date: October 21, 2025
Host: John Karalis
Guest: Tom Westerholm
Episode Theme:
The main focus of this episode is exploring Joe Mazzulla’s mission to instill "grit" and toughness in the Celtics ahead of the new season, pondering if a team full of “nice guys” can find the edge needed to compete for a title. In the latter half, the conversation shifts to Tom Thibodeau’s unique visit to Celtics practice—how the recently-fired Knicks coach provided Jaylen Brown with in-depth insight into how the Knicks game-planned to stop him in last year’s playoffs.

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Joe Mazzulla’s Toughness Quest: Can Nice Guys Get Gritty?

[01:11] – [14:25]

Celtics’ Current Identity: Finesse over Grit

• John Karalis sets up the central question: "How the heck is Joe Mazzulla gonna take a bunch of guys who are finesse players, basically a bunch of nice guys, and turn them into a gritty bunch with chips on their shoulders?" [01:11]
• Tom Westerholm jokes about the lack of tough-guy personas on the roster, referencing the days of Jay Crowder and others with more of a palpable edge:

  “I don’t see Jay Crowder out there. I don’t see anybody who’s gonna boop John Wall… They’re all fine young men.” [03:42]

• The duo laments that the roster’s “toughness scale” peaks around a “six out of ten”—with Jalen Brown and Peyton Pritchard as the grittiest current Celtics.
• Karalis: “When I talk about gritty...the Celtics need to just go out there, be willing to take the contact, not shy away from the contact, not be annoyed by the contact, not be annoyed by the work. They have to be the aggressors.” [05:20]
• Westerholm: “Pritchard is not afraid of contact…he has some dog in him…But it's hard to imagine Peyton Pritchard ever getting into a shoving match with someone.” [06:03 & 06:28]

Analogies: Moving From the ‘Gated Community’ to the ‘Tough Neighborhood’

• Karalis delivers an analogy for NBA teams:

  “Finesse team is the gated community you move into when you get a big promotion… you can be able to ride your bike in the street, and I don’t have to… Sometimes you forget to lock the door at night.” [07:39]
  "You become the gritty team because you got no choice... you got to carry your keys like they're a weapon." [08:41]

• Reference is made to the Isaiah Thomas-era Celtics as peak “grit” – a team that forced opponents to “cross the street” when walking by them. [09:09]

The Challenge: Can You Teach Toughness?

• “How does Joe get these guys there—to walk in, flip a switch? …Sam Houser is just this, aw shucks, Midwestern, Wisconsin kid… If I had a daughter, if she brought home basically any one of these guys from the Celtics, I'd be like, ‘Oh, well, this is a fine young gentleman.’” (Karalis) [10:35]
• Both hosts question whether “toughness” can truly be coached or if it must come from within the roster—especially absent a natural enforcer or agitator.

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How Joe Mazzulla and Jalen Brown Must Lead

[14:25] – [22:42]

Can Toughness Be Developed, or Is It Innate?

• Tom Westerholm expresses concern:

  “I think it's really hard. … It's hard to change your nature. … Who's going to be pushing and shoving? Who’s going to be getting in there?” [14:25]

• Discussion settles on Jalen Brown as the key to setting the tone:

  “I think it’s on Jalen…Joe and Jalen have to get together and be like, hey look, go get thrown out. … Jalen has to be the guy diving on the floor, getting in there and rebounding.” (Karalis) [16:27–17:11]

• Karalis points out that leadership by example is paramount:

  “If you show the film and Jaylen Brown’s not boxing out, then they have no chance of doing this. … Jaylen has to at least start the game, first shot up, he's got to be in there, take a foul, push it, do something, set the tone.” [17:00]

• Jalen's willingness to play “above expectations” and “take slights personally” is debated as an essential step back to a grittier mentality—referencing the Brad Stevens and Isaiah Thomas teams who “took so much offense to everything.” [19:51]
• The tension between “well-adjusted” modern pros and the kind of “maniac edge” it takes to win is highlighted:

  "I want everybody to go to therapy and be well adjusted except for the professional athletes that I'm rooting for." (Karalis, quoting a comedian) [20:52]

• “Somebody has to be a lunatic…Somebody has to be Joe Mazzulla.” [22:16]

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Tom Thibodeau Visits Celtics: Knicks’ Secrets Revealed

[25:01] – [33:24]

The Most Unusual Offseason Gift: Enemy Coach as Mentor

• John Corrales describes seeing Tom Thibodeau at Celtics practice:

  “Shocked when I turned around and saw Tom Thibodeau…shoutout to Tom Thibodeau for getting out there and dropping a few lbs.” [25:01]

• Explains the unique value: Thibodeau, recently fired by the Knicks after eliminating the Celtics, gave Jaylen Brown a full debrief of how the Knicks scouted and stopped him.
• Corrales:

  “Jalen was talking about, you know, Tom was telling me, you know, basically the game plan…‘Here’s what we saw, here’s how we covered you, here’s what we tried to do.’ And Jalen said, look, if you’re humble enough to listen, you’re going to get better.” [25:49]

• Pull Quote—Jalen Brown (as recounted by Corrales, [25:49]):

  “If you're humble enough to listen, you're going to get better.”

• Westerholm ponders:

  “It’s a very unique opportunity in that way…Tibbs is going to be paid by the Knicks for quite some time still, and he's just out here telling the Knicks rival superstars, ‘Here's how we beat you.’” [27:21]

• Westerholm highlights the growth mindset at work:

  "If you're humble enough to look at your flaws and to like, identify your flaws, examine them, put them under a microscope and then go out and try to fix them, that's the key." [27:49]

Knicks’ Messy Offseason: The Ultimate Irony

• A report from Mark Stein is dropped ([29:02])—the Knicks looked into luring Joe Mazzulla after firing Thibodeau; instead, their ex-coach now assists Boston.
• Corrales sums it up:

  “The New York Knicks just paid Tom Thibodeau to give Jalen Brown the full scouting report on how they guarded him. That is incredible.” [29:40]

The Value of NBA Coaching Fraternity

• Discussion of the NBA’s “coaching fraternity”—fired coaches dropping in across the league to share schemes or motivational insight.
• Taylor Jenkins (ex-Grizzlies) mentioned as another consultant at Celtics practice for schemes to help with rebounding and mindset.

---

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “Every team wants to be a finesse team. … You become the gritty team because you got no choice.” (Karalis, [07:39])
• “You always have to have this one thing that makes you do the extra things that make you so damn good.” (Karalis, [21:19])
• "Somebody has to be a lunatic. Somebody has to be Joe Mazzulla … He would do it." (Karalis, [22:14])
• “If you’re humble enough to listen, you’re going to get better.” (Jalen Brown via Karalis, [25:49])
• “The Knicks just paid Tom Thibodeau to give Jalen Brown the full scouting report on how they guarded him. That is incredible." (Karalis, [29:40])
• "What can you say? He just beat you. … It’s like when the guy who robs you comes in and it's like, here's how you fix all your security stuff.” (Karalis, [32:23])

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Segment Timestamps

• 01:11 – Setting up the toughness question for Joe Mazzulla's Celtics
• 03:42 – Toughness scale and “nice guys” roster, no enforcers
• 07:39 – "Gated community" vs. "tough neighborhood" analogy
• 10:35 – How do you teach grit to a roster of nice guys?
• 14:25 – Can toughness be developed or is it innate (Jalen as the key)?
• 17:00-18:39 – Jalen Brown’s responsibility to set the gritty tone
• 19:51 – The need for a team to “take offense” and play with a chip
• 25:01 – Tom Thibodeau at practice; Jalen Brown’s open-mindedness
• 27:49 – Growth mindset: humility and improvement
• 29:02-29:40 – Knicks’ fiasco trying to lure Mazzulla; Thibs helps Boston
• 31:58-32:23 – Accepting “white hat” feedback from the coach who beat you

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Conclusion

This episode offers a thoughtful exploration into the Celtics’ challenges in developing toughness and the complex psychological landscape of NBA “grit.” While host John Karalis and guest Tom Westerholm admit there’s no easy answer to coach up “dog mentality,” they zero in on Jalen Brown’s importance and leadership by example. The show’s second half delivers unique insight into how ex-rival coach Tom Thibodeau’s visit might give Boston a crucial edge—if the team is humble enough to listen and learn.

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For new and returning listeners:
The episode maintains a conversational, occasionally self-deprecating tone (true to Locked On Celtics), packed with analogies, personal observations, and a healthy dose of Celtics fandom.

Transcript

[John Corrales]

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[John Corrales]

Joe Mazzulla squeeze some grit out of a bunch of nice guys? And thank you to the New York Knicks for for letting Jaylen Brown fix himself. It's all right now on the Locked On Celtics Podcast.

[Tom Westerholm]

Huh?

[Locked On Celtics Promo Announcer]

Yep, yep. Be town be ever ready. It's the seeds. Who else could it be? What they going to say now screaming like J.T. corralis recap the madness every game, every practice, prime time, Depp and D White on the sideline, Ren and J How it started, raising banners how we finish Locked on Celtics pod. Home of the winners baby.

[John Corrales]

Hey there. Welcome back to the Locker Lockdown Celtics Podcast right here on the Lockdown Podcast network. Where is your team every day your team is the Boston Celtics and I talk about them Monday through Friday, bonus podcasts on the weekends when they play. So subscribe Wherever we get your podcasts. You can watch a show on YouTube. Get into the comment section there. Share your thoughts with your fellow every dayers, the people who are with me five days a week and have some fun there in the comment section. I'm John Corrales, beat writer for Boston Sports Journal. I've written a couple of books about the Celtics and I've covered the team for about 20 years now. Later on we'll get to that New York Knicks just giving Jaylen Brown an unprecedented opportunity to improve himself. But first, I, I went through practice, and I, I was asking the, I think the biggest question for the Celtics this year, and that is, how the heck is Joe Missoula gonna take a bunch of guys who are finesse. Finesse players, basically a bunch of nice guys and turn them into a gritty bunch with chips on their shoulders that has to play as hard as they do? It's a tough question to answer. That's why I need Tom Westerholm to help answer it. Tom, welcome to the podcast.

[Tom Westerholm]

Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Yeah, no, I, I'm. I'm. It's good.

[John Corrales]

It's.

[Tom Westerholm]

It's always good to bring in the person with the answers, and I have them always, so.

[John Corrales]

Always, Tom, with the answers. That's what I think.

[Tom Westerholm]

Answers is what I.

[John Corrales]

That's absolutely. Yes. So what's the answer to everything? Well, I mean, let's start with the meaning of life and work our way down.

[Tom Westerholm]

Okay. All right. All right. Well, ball is life, obviously.

[John Corrales]

Good. Okay, next.

[Tom Westerholm]

All right, next. Cool. Yeah, no, I, I, I don't, I don't have. I don't have answers here. I, I look at, I look at these Celtics, I see a bunch of nice guys. I think you're right. Nice guys who. I don't see Jay Crowder out there.

[John Corrales]

Right.

[Tom Westerholm]

I don't see anybody. Who's gonna boop John Wall. I don't, you know. So, uh, you, I don't know. You convince me. Who's gonna boop John Wall?

[John Corrales]

That's. Well, where's John Wall working now? Is it NBC? Maybe be. Is Blake Griffin there? No. Maybe Scal will. Maybe scout will.

[Tom Westerholm]

I like that contract work. Yeah.

[John Corrales]

Yeah.

[Tom Westerholm]

Lance it out a little bit.

[John Corrales]

So. Okay, let's do it this way. On a scale of 1 to 10.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

Okay. One being, like, the night Brad Stevens and 10 being Dylan Brooks, what is, what is the highest number currently on the Celtics, like, in the Celtics rotation? What's the highest number that they have on their team? And who is it? Yeah, right. That's.

[Tom Westerholm]

That's a tough question.

[John Corrales]

It's a tough question. Right? Is it Jalen?

[Tom Westerholm]

We don't know about enough about, like, Boucher yet. Right.

[John Corrales]

Like, I mean, maybe he can get himself there, and he did have, like, a little bit of a dust up in the, in the preseason. Jalen's been the one that's been, you know, willing to, you know, get into, like, a push in the shove, and I'm not Talking about, you got to be dirty. When I talk about gritty, I'm. I. I mean, the Celtics need to just go out there, be willing to take the contact, not shy away from the contact, not be annoyed by the contact, not be annoyed by the work or, like, they have to be the aggressors. They have to be the ones who annoy the. The. You know, the golden states of the world. They have to go out there and be the ones to get into people's face. So I don't know. It's. You look at the starting lineup. Peyton Pritchard. I mean, he works hard, but is. Is he. You know, where is he? He was.

[Tom Westerholm]

He was my next answer after Jalen, and. And, like. I don't know. We don't.

[John Corrales]

But what number is he? He's nowhere close to Dylan Brooks.

[Tom Westerholm]

No, he's probably. What. Like, I would say he's a. I would say he's a six. A six.

[John Corrales]

I think he's a six on him, but that's fine.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah. I would say, like. Like, Pritchard is not afraid of contact. Pritchard will seek out some contact here and there, you know, like, if he gets under the. He doesn't mind, like, kind of burrowing his way into people and, like, you know, like, just kind of.

[John Corrales]

Yeah.

[Tom Westerholm]

So I. I would give him slightly above.

[John Corrales]

He has some dog in him.

[Tom Westerholm]

He has dog.

[John Corrales]

He was. I've been praising his box outs. That's. That's.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That kind of.

[John Corrales]

Sure. Okay. Okay. Pritchard's in there. Yeah.

[Tom Westerholm]

I mean, I think, if you wanted to say a five, because it's hard to imagine Peyton Pritchard ever getting into a shoving match with someone.

[John Corrales]

Yeah.

[Tom Westerholm]

Like, he's not. He's not booping John Wall.

[John Corrales]

Right. He's. He's not afraid, but he's also not the aggressor. Yeah. You know, and again, I'm not looking for Dylan Brooks. I'm not saying the Celtics needed Dylan Brooks. I'm not looking for a guy that crosses lines and gets dirty sometimes. That's not what we're looking for. But what I'm saying in. In the fact that we can't even find anybody that's maybe past the six. I think Jalen is. Is in there. He's in that mix. I think he wants to believe that he's the guy when it comes to that.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

I can't think of anything. Like, I can't think of anybody else that's. That's close. So what Joe Missoula needs to do with these guys is to get them to play that. That gritty is going to be the word. And maybe there's a better word for it, but it's, again, not dirty. Not toeing the line with dirty. Just like, hey, get in there. And, hey, if you. If you follow somebody, you file somebody, so what? And if they get annoyed by it, who cares? Like that. That attitude of, like, we're going to do what we do. If you don't like it, tough. Not trying to hurt you. But if you don't like it, I don't care. And I think the Celtics have been this finesse team because they've been allowed to be, you know, like, I think. You tell me if I'm wrong here. Yeah. Every team wants to be a finesse team. Right? You graduate to finesse team. Finesse team is the gated community you move into when you get a big promotion and a pay raise and you move out of the tough part of town, and you're like, we're going to move to the suburbs, and we're going to. You can be able to ride your bike in the street, and I don't have to. You know, sometimes you forget to lock the door at night, and it's really not a problem. You know, like, that's the finesse team. Everybody wants that. You become the gritty team because you got no choice, right?

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You.

[John Corrales]

You take the apartment in the neighborhood, you got, like, that's the one you can afford, and you got to carry your keys like they're a weapon, and you got to have your head on the swivel. That's the gritty team. You just. That you. You embrace it because you have to. And I'm just curious to see how the Celtics embrace this, because I think they're starting to understand that they have to.

[Tom Westerholm]

I. I kind of. I like that analogy because it brings to minds the Isaiah Thomas teams that were absolutely.

[John Corrales]

Exactly.

[Tom Westerholm]

I mean, like, they were. They. You know, they were walking down the street, they got a pit bull, you know, because you gotta have, like. You gotta have. You gotta have something that can bark real loud in your house.

[John Corrales]

They were the ones that made the other people cross the street.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's. And. And. And I don't know if the Celtics need to be that, but the Celtics do need to be like, I'm just gonna keep an eye on a few of these guys because, you know, I'm. Well.

[Tom Westerholm]

And then. And then I. What I really like is that Danny Ainge then Tried to start a business so that he could get him. Get his team out of that neighborhood. And he really tried to bring in, you know, Kyrie, Anthony Davis, kd, and that business just didn't work out, you know, I mean, you know, like, you know, like, he got kind of lucky and was, you know, and then, like, Brad Stevens was able to finish the job for him, but, like, that business fell apart badly. Did not have his margins in order. All kinds of stuff went wrong there.

[John Corrales]

So the other. The other I wrote. I made two analogies on Boston Sports Journal. That was one. The other one was like, the Celtics. You talk about that. They have the dog in them. Well, I have a dog. He's, like, the sweetest, cutest. Like, he's a big dog, and, like, he can bark. He can bark. And, like, maybe people are like, oh, that's a big bark. I don't want to be near the house. He's gonna guard the house. But when he's done, he comes up and he wants belly rubs and stuff like that. And Joe needs to have, like, a little bit of junkyard dog in him. He needs to, like, have people be afraid. Like, you got to put up the sign, beware of dog.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

How do you do that? Like, that's my question. How does Joe get these guys there to. To walk in, flip a switch? Because they are nice guys. They are. Sam Houser is just this, aw, shucks, Midwestern, you know, Wisconsin kid. You know, every one of these guys, for the most part, if I had a daughter, if any, if she brought home basically any one of these guys from the Celtics, I'd be like, oh, well, this is a fine young gentleman. I approve of your choice of boyfriend. Like, that's. That's not exactly the team that. It's not exactly the type of guy that you're like, oh, yeah, he's gonna go out there and he's gonna, you know, get in there. And if the, you know, follow a guy, and if he falls, he falls, and I don't give a damn.

[Tom Westerholm]

Let's.

[John Corrales]

Let's think about that. Like, how. How does. How does Joe get them there? We'll try to figure that out when we come back. Today's show is brought to you by Bilt. I just talked about where you live. If you're gonna rent, you know, you'd rather buy, but sometimes you gotta rent, and if you have to, you might as well get something for it. That's where Bilt comes in. Built is changing the game by turning your rent payment into real rewards. You can actually use. I wish this was around when I was renting, especially when I was living in New York, because I paid a lot of rent and if I had it through Built, I could have earned flexible points that could be reward redeemed toward hundreds of hotels and airlines, a future rent payment, your next Lyft ride, and more. But Bilt isn't just about rent. It's about rewarding you around your entire neighborhood. With Bilt, your rent finally works for you. You're earning points every month on something you already have to pay. So whether you're grabbing food at a local restaurant or heading to the gym, you're still earning rewards all about in your neighborhood. Built has made everyday life feel more rewarding. Turn your rent into rewards and start earning points around your neighborhood by going to join built.comlockdown MBA that's join built B I L T.comlockdown MBA and make sure to use that link so they know that we sent you. Today's show is also brought to you by Skims. When I found out Skims was making underwear for men, I was intrigued. My wife was like, you know what? You are going to love them. She's a big skims customer and she's right. My wife's always right. And she was right about this. They fit well. They're super comfortable. They stay where they're supposed to stay. I love wearing them when I go to the gym because they are nice. Cool. The men's line offers something for everyone. Boxer briefs. Classic briefs designed with perfect balance of comfort and style. I was wearing them when I played basketball. I felt comfortable. They were helping me move out there, so. But whether you're going up against the Celtics coaches or maybe just running a few errands, they're the most comfortable and reliable underwear I have ever owned. Plus, the lightweight material feels almost like you're wearing nothing at all. Shop Skims men'[e-mail] that's skims.com let them know we sent you. After you place your order, I'm pretty sure you will select Podcast in the survey and select this show in the drop down menu that follows. Thank you for making Lockdown Celtics your first listen. Every day. Go check out Locked On Fantasy Basketball with Josh Lloyd. Josh is the best of the best when it comes to fantasy basketball podcasting. You're going to do so great in your league when you listen to Lockdown Fantasy Basketball because he's just going to give you those tips, those, those, those ads, those drops on a daily basis, multiple times A day. So check out lockdown fantasy basketball wherever you found this podcast. All right, Tom Westerholm, how does Joe Missoula figure out how to get these guys to. To be the types of players that he needs them to be?

[Tom Westerholm]

Mentally, I mean, I. I think it's. I think it's really hard. I. I honestly, like, I'm not trying to be, like, defeatist here against this. This project, this undertaking, right? But I do think. I mean, it's hard to change your nature. Right? And I think that a lot of this comes to down to, like. Like, you know, there are teams that there. There are guys who are, you know, kind of play to a teammate. Like, there might be a teammate who inspires a certain level on. On some teams of. Of toughness, who inspires a certain identity, who inspires, like, you know, like, talk about, like, a Dylan Brooks. It's like, you know, young players who play on a Dylan Brooks team might be influenced in a certain way. Play a certain type of way. Right. And the problem is that, like we just said, the highest we see on this team is like, a six. So I guess the question is do, like, can the Celtics. Can. Can Jalen? Because I think Joe Missoula can do what he can, right? I'm sure he'll have analogies. You know, I'm sure he'll have plenty of. Of fun little examples and stuff and, you know, like, words of inspiration for these guys. But a lot of it's just. A lot of it just comes down to, like, who you are and who your best players are. And if Jalen is a six, that's. But that's not a bad starting point, right? That's. That's a. That's a decent starting point. But, like, you know, when your next best player is Derrick White, who is, you know, a very, like you said, a very respectable man.

[John Corrales]

Like, fine young man.

[Tom Westerholm]

A fine young man. You know, like, when you got to go up and down the roster and like you said, you just see fine young men everywhere you look. It's. I. I think that's tough. I mean, I think, you know, not like it. I think it's kind of like the rebounding thing, you know, it's like. Yeah, I don't know how much of a solution there is for the rebounding. I don't know how much of a solution there is for the fact that, like, who's going to be pushing and shoving? Who's going to be, like, getting in there?

[John Corrales]

Yeah, I feel like it's kind of on Jalen. I think it's on.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah, I think.

[John Corrales]

Yeah, I think. I think Joe and Jalen have to get together and be like, hey, look, go get thrown out. You know what I mean? Go. Do.

[Tom Westerholm]

Do.

[John Corrales]

You got to do something that's going to set the tone? And. And, like, I don't know what it is, man. I. I focus on the. Like, I say get thrown out, I focus on that. And. And I don't know if I should be, because it is about the hustle plays. But, like, Jalen has to be the guy diving on the floor. Jalen has to be the guy getting in there and rebounding. And he says, like, he's doing that stuff in practice, and so I don't see it. I don't know, but we have to see it in the games. He can't be just hanging out on the perimeter. He has to be crashing. He has to be boxing out. If you show the film and Jaylen Brown's not boxing out, then they have no chance of getting. Doing this because Jalen is just turning and looking. Then what's the point? What's the point of everybody else boxing out? You know, Jalen has to at least start the game first, first shot up. He's got to be in there, take a foul, push it, you know, get underneath a guy, do something, set the tone. Like, I am here to rebound. I'm here to work hard, do something to show everybody. Look, I can't be. I'm Jaylen Brown, right? I. I at one point had the richest contract in NBA history. I'm. I'm not in here for my own health. I actually have a choice. I cannot do this. And he could. He still has to play me, but I'm still doing it. And so if. If I'm Jalen and I'm boxing out and we watch film and Luca Garza isn't, then Jalen can be like, hey, man, if I'm doing it, you're doing it. And that. That's. That has to be where it comes from. And all the starters and all the returning guys. But Jalen, especially if Joe needs a dog, Jalen needs to be the dog.

[Tom Westerholm]

And I think it's got to come from this.

[John Corrales]

It's.

[Tom Westerholm]

It's an interesting thing with Jalen, too, right? Because I think it's got to come from a sincere place, like. Like, and it's. I think it's got to come from, like, a genuine hunger. And I. I'm. I'm curious to see where that hunger level is with the top players on this. On this team. Right. With your Jalens, like. Yeah. How hungry are you to, to win right now this year? Like, because, I mean, we talked during the summer about, like, hey, this is Jalen's chance to kind of rock out a little bit because it, because it feels like, I don't want to say a throwaway year because that does a disservice to a lot of very decent players on this roster. So it's not a throwaway year, but like, you know, a year with lower expectations, like, I, I think it does. It, you know, kind of comes down to like, hey, take that personally. You know, like, you gotta like, like this is like, if you're Jalen, like, oh, you think this is. Your expectations are lower for this year. Even though I'm here. That's interesting. You know, it's. There's. There's got to be kind of this genuine desire, like, not even desire. There's got to be this genuine, like, I don't know, those, those, those, those Celtics teams, like took so much offense to everything.

[John Corrales]

Yeah.

[Tom Westerholm]

Before.

[John Corrales]

Yeah.

[Tom Westerholm]

You know, like the, the Jay Crowders and all that. Everything was, was a slight, was an affront, was like they were just like mad about everything. Kevin Durant didn't choose us. Oh, oh, really? He went and joined them.

[John Corrales]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Tom Westerholm]

They were just mad about everything. And it's like, you got to get back to that mental space, which, I don't know, it's not a particularly healthy mental space. Like this, this group of guys who seem like they've been to therapy and have like really kind of, you know, self actualized and done all this great stuff. It's like, I don't know. I mean, that's better for you. I'm glad that they, I'm glad that they're like that. But I do feel like there's got to be kind of this desperation and this, this like almost unhealthy desire to win that forces you to do unhealthy things with your body, dive, get into the front row. Like if, like Jalen's had injuries in his career, like, you know, if you're going to be flying around, like, you might pick something up and you got to just, you know.

[John Corrales]

Right.

[Tom Westerholm]

I don't know, to have that, like, that kind of edge. It's not always healthy physically or mentally.

[John Corrales]

Yeah. I wish I knew the comedian because I remember seeing this clip about, there's a comedian who's like, I want everybody to go to therapy and be well adjusted except for the professional athletes that I'm rooting for. You know, and it's like, I need those guys to be maniacs, you know.

[Tom Westerholm]

We also need our comedians not to go to therapy so that they can continue to be messed up people.

[John Corrales]

That's right. That's the. I've always said to be the best of the best, like this elite, like super elite NBA.

[Tom Westerholm]

You.

[John Corrales]

You can't have. You can't be well adjusted. Right. You always have to have this one thing that makes you do the extra things that make you so damn good.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

There's just. There. There are millions of people with the same physical gifts as, say, a Jalen Brown. There are a lot of people. Maybe not millions, but there are a lot of people with the same. Yeah. Weight, you know, can jump as high, but are horrible basketball players because Jalen has this obsessive thing where he needed. He needs to get better every. He needs to do crazy things. Like that whole story about him swimming at the BC pool. That. That's well adjusted. People don't do that well.

[Tom Westerholm]

And the perfect example is Peyton Pritchard, right? Where it's like there are a lot of people who are built exactly like Peyton Pritchard, but not all of them.

[John Corrales]

Are like in their garage subways every day.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[John Corrales]

He's got the best handle in the NBA. And it's like crazy. Yeah, that's exactly it. So, yeah, somebody has to be a lunatic. Somebody has like. Somebody has to be Joe Missoula. How can you put Joe Missoula's player coach, get him out there and be a lunatic? He would do it. Yeah, but that. That's the thing. And so it's. It's going to be an interesting. If they can. The. The faster they solve that. And that could come out on opening night for all we know.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[John Corrales]

The faster they get to that place, the. The quicker they're going to start figuring out how to win some games.

[Tom Westerholm]

To all the locked on listeners out there, if we start just trashing the team on here and we just give them as much fuel as we possibly can.

[John Corrales]

Oh, interesting.

[Tom Westerholm]

Can, like, can people. Can we start like a gofundme so that, like. Because, I mean, you won't be allowed in the arena anymore. I mean, like, you know, we're gonna need some extra income. Can we. Can we get like a gofundme going and then we'll push the Celtics up? Like, we'll do it. We can do it, you know.

[John Corrales]

Oh, I have no problem doing that.

[Tom Westerholm]

Okay. All right.

[John Corrales]

Well, yeah. Persona non grata after that. But, like, you know, Yeah, I will definitely not be playing against the coaches because I'll be bridged. Actually, I won't be bridged because I can't jump high enough for anybody to get underneath me anymore. But I'll get hurt somehow, so.

[Tom Westerholm]

All right, something bad's happening.

[John Corrales]

Tom Thibodeau was at practice. And thank you New York Knicks for making that possible because that was the ultimate unique opportunity for Jaylen Brown. That is coming up next. Today's show is brought to you by Mint Mobile. If you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no. At Mint Mobile, their favorite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no bs. I said yes to making the switch and getting premium wireless for just $15 a month. Mint makes it simple. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can even bring your own phone and keep your same number and contacts so you're getting the same quality services you had before but for a fraction of the price. Setup is super easy. You keep your number and then you're up and running in minutes. Are you ready to say yes to saying no? Make the [e-mail] lockdown MBA that's mintmobile.com lockdown NBA upfront payment of 45 required equivalent of 15amonth limited time new customer offer for the first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 GB on unlimited plan taxes and fees. Extra seidment mobile for detail with next.

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[John Corrales]

Done thank you for making Lockdown Celtics your first listen every day. Go check out Lockdown NBA locked on NBA game night both in the same feed. I will be there tomorrow for opening night and Jake and I, Jake Madison and I will have the whole thing covered for the Wednesday Locked on game night show. That's what we do seven days a week. Cover every game in the association afternoon show. We'll be covering all the biggest stories so make that your second and third listen after you're done with this show. Tom I was shocked. Shocked when I turned around and saw Tom Thibodeau or half of Tom Thibodeau shout out to Tom Thibodeau for getting out there and dropping a few lbs. Getting. It's amazing what not having to coach the New York Knicks does for your health. He looks good. Oh, I'm sorry, you were, you're muted.

[Tom Westerholm]

Oh, that's okay.

[John Corrales]

It's amazing.

[Tom Westerholm]

What, not having to coach an NBA team.

[John Corrales]

Yeah, right. He looks good. He's out there, he's talking to Jason Tatum. We asked Jalen Brown about it and he was, he was pumped and he said like this. He, I like the way he put it because it's super unique opportunity. This is the team that eliminated you. They just bounced you in the playoffs and it was an upset and you, you know, injuries aside, whatever, Celtics still should have won. They should have won those first two games. They should have won that series. Jalen was talking about, you know, Tom was, was telling me, you know, basically the game plan, you know, here, here's what we saw, here's how we covered you, here's what we tried to do. And Jalen said, look, if you're humble enough to listen, you're going to get better. So thank you, New York Knicks, because if you didn't fire this guy, Jalen wouldn't have gotten like this heavy dose of like reality. Right? Like this is heading into the first game of the season having an opposing coach, a high level coach, like, like Tibbs, who had the game plan and was able to execute it, to have him be like, yeah, these are all the things that we did. This is, these are all the tendencies that we saw with you. That is amazing. Like, he, he, Jalen must go home tonight and be like, I would sit like in a, a sensory deprivation chamber and just let all of those words soak in. Because that has to be the most incredible kind of scattering report that you're ever going to get.

[Tom Westerholm]

It really is. I, I mean it's, it's wild when you think about it. Because, I mean, for one thing, you know, when you think about it in terms of the fact that like, like Tibbs is going to be paid by the Knicks for quite some time still. Like, he's, you know, he was on a pretty long contract with the Knicks and he's, he's going to be getting money from them for quite a while. And he's just out here telling, you know, the Knicks rival, like the Knicks rival superstars, like, so here's how we beat you.

[John Corrales]

Yeah, you want to get better?

[Tom Westerholm]

Here's what I would do because it worked. I mean, it's a very unique opportunity in that way. I mean, like, I, I agree with you too. I love Jalen's comments there. Like, if you're humble enough, you can improve. Like, I mean, that's a great mindset to have, whether or not Tom Thibodeau is in your, is in your film room. Right. Like, if you're humble enough, you can improve. If you're humble enough to look at your flaws and to like, identify your flaws, examine them, you know, put them under a microscope and then go out and try to fix them. I mean, that's. Yeah, that's, that's the key. Right? That's, that's, that's growth mindset at its best.

[John Corrales]

Yeah.

[Tom Westerholm]

And you know, like, what better person to inspire that growth mindset than, like you said, like the, the head coach of the team that, that limited you and eliminated your team from the playoffs. I also thought it was funny. I don't know if you saw this. It happened like, I, I spotted it just before we started recording, but Mark Stein reported that the Knicks then tried to pursue Joe Missoula. Or like there was like they were looking for pathways to pursue Joe Missoula this, this off season. So just a, a triple dose of, of. Oof. For the Knicks.

[John Corrales]

Like, wait, not only I missed that. Was that on Twitter?

[Tom Westerholm]

I, I saw it. I think I saw it on Reddit. But yeah, Mark Stein on, on his, on one of his, on his substack said that it had been whispered that the Knicks likely did some back channel exploration to determine if there was any pathway to pursue Joe, and there obviously was not. So fired Tom Thibodeau had a very protracted search that, that really didn't make a lot of sense based on firing the coach that just got you to the Eastern Conference finals, missed the Celtics coach who you wanted, and then the coach you fired went and helped the Celtics coach and the Celtics superstars get better at the things that you use to beat them.

[John Corrales]

Just what a measure of revenge. What a measure of revenge from. From Tibbs. Like, oh, you're firing me. Oh, you're paying me. So the New York Knicks just paid Tom Thibodeau to give Jalen Brown the full scouting report on how they guarded him. Correct. That is. That is incredible. That is just incredible. And like, I knew under, under the.

[Tom Westerholm]

Under the supervision of the guy they didn't get.

[John Corrales]

Yes, that's right. That's right. It's just amazing to me, like, just the way it all panned out, because I knew that he was going to get fired if they lost that series. And I thought winning that series, they might have been like, well, we, we can't do this now. But they did. And and like Tom Thibodeau, he knows he's going to get another job at some point, just chill out, relax, maybe do some media. Like, I'm sure he's going to show up somewhere. But now he's done this trail. I know he showed up at like three or four different camps. The coaches that, like, Taylor Jenkins was at one of these Celtics practices, they're. They're NBA coaches. Fired NBA coaches. I like the fraternity that they have to be able to go from one to the other and just pick up some. Some things. And I know Taylor Jenkins was, you know, has helped out with the Celtics, you know, defensively and some of their mindset stuff. Like the Grizzlies haven't been like the best defensive rebounding team. So he's kind of how, you know, how do you deal with that? And, you know, they. They had some success under him, so what a great person to bring in. Hey, you had a bunch of small guys and you didn't really rebound. Well, how'd you do it? And, and to get these guys in there and pick their brains, it's just. It makes you. It makes you a better team. It makes these guys better players. And Jalen, especially, like, I'm at a point where, you know, he is about to turn 30. Like he's going to. He's turning the corner. He's got. I don't know how much he's got left. I'm sure he's got some, you know, five, six, whatever years left. But when. When you're at that point in your career, it's like, how much better can you get right? Like your improvements are going to start being. How do you manage some of the athleticism that you're going to lose?

[Tom Westerholm]

And yeah, that's.

[John Corrales]

That's your improvement is. Is transitioning to this old man game. To have this kind of scouring report come from the outside and to come from the guy that just beat you, like, you. You have no choice but to take it. You have no choice because what can you say? He just beat you. He just figured out he. He defended you well.

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He.

[John Corrales]

That, that. That closeout game. You were horrible. I know he's his. He was playing on one leg. But that. When, you know, it's like when the guy who robs you comes in and it's like, here's how you fix all your security stuff. What are you gonna be like now? What do you know? You just broke through all of my security stuff. Yeah. Thank you for the advice. I appreciate that. So it's. It's it's like the. What is the white hat hackers. Like those, those guys.

[Tom Westerholm]

Like, that's what.

[John Corrales]

That's what Thibodeau is for for the Celtics right now. So. Yeah, I appreciate that. I really do appreciate that. I'm very curious to see, specifically because Jalen wouldn't tell us, but I want to know specifically.

[Tom Westerholm]

Imagine. Imagine being a fly on that wall.

[John Corrales]

Like, oh, God, oh, my God. Like what was going through Jalen's head? Like, oh, God. I didn't think anybody saw that. Or like, you know, like, oh, I thought I could break through. I didn't, you know, because it's a great job, like noticing that, you know, I don't know. Anyway, good stuff.

[Tom Westerholm]

Good stuff.

[John Corrales]

Happy to see Thibs. Happy to see him looking good. You know, it's health, health above all else. So.

[Tom Westerholm]

That's right, you know, good friend.

[John Corrales]

So. All right, we'll see tomorrow. Tom, you won't come back tomorrow?

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah, I'll be back.

[John Corrales]

All right, let's do tomorrow. Tomorrow we'll do the official official season preview. How's that? Not like we haven't been previewing the season.

[Tom Westerholm]

Right. Right. For the first time, we're gonna take.

[John Corrales]

A look to this season. Well, we'll figure out how to do the Celtics preview, but we'll have some more answers then. Yes, we'll. Yes. All right, Tom. Appreciate you, man. Appreciate you. I do appreciate all of you who have been listening on the regular basis who are my everydayers Monday through Friday, listeners watchers on YouTube. Very much happy that you have chosen to do so. Thank you so, so much. If you're a new subscriber, if you're here for the first time, I hope you enjoyed the show. Love to have you come back a few times a week, maybe five times a week, maybe six or seven depending if they play in the weekends. I will be here. The show is always free. It's available everywhere. You get a podcast so make sure you are subscribed. Get into that comment section, share your thoughts with everybody. Let me know what you're thinking. But everything that we said and then share the podcast. Tell everybody they should be listening to and watching the Lockdown Celtics podcast here on the Lockdown podcast network. It's your team every day.

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[John Corrales]

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