Mazzulla DEMANDS Rebounding Improvement | How GOOD to Celtics need to be?

Summary

Locked On Celtics - Podcast Summary

Episode Title: Mazzulla DEMANDS Rebounding Improvement | How GOOD to Celtics need to be?
Host: John Karalis (with guest Tom Westerholm)
Date: October 14, 2025

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Overview

This episode centers around the Boston Celtics’ ongoing rebounding issues, Coach Joe Mazzulla’s escalating frustration, and the broader question of how “good” the Celtics truly need to be in order to contend given their unique roster construction. John Karalis and Tom Westerholm dissect recent preseason games, Mazzulla’s public emphasis on rebounding, and what realistic expectations should be for the early season as the team works on finding “structure in the chaos.”

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The “JV Squad” Preseason Problem

• Celtics have faced the back half (“JV squads”) of other rosters in three straight games, making takeaways tricky.

• Tom Westerholm notes that while it’s good the Celtics are dominating inferior teams, it's hard to draw conclusions about capable rotation players’ fit, especially defensively (04:03).

  “I’m tired of watching teams like, you know, JV squads go out there and... the Celtics try to, you know, figure out if their varsity team is going to look good against another team’s varsity team that isn’t present.” (04:40 — Tom Westerholm)

Roster Depth and Odd Construction

• Boston has areas of strength (e.g., multiple scoring guards) but glaring weaknesses, notably in rebounding.
• Tom likens the roster depth to a lake “where there’s holes that just kind of drop off all of a sudden.” (05:15–06:28)

Turnover & Rebounding Troubles

• Celtics are committing high numbers of turnovers: 22 against the Cavs, 29 vs. Toronto.

• Rebounding weaknesses persist even against non-elite opponents; defensive rebounding percentage extremely low (64.3%), which would be league-worst by far.

  “Their cumulative defensive rebounding percentage is currently 64.3, which is God awful.” (09:54 — John Karalis)

Joe Mazzulla's Approach & Public Message

• Mazzulla has been visibly agitated, making rapid substitutions after rebounding lapses to send a clear message (10:10–11:10).

• This intensified rotation is as much about finding solutions as it is about motivation and accountability.

  “Joe spent the entire first half of that game... as soon as somebody screwed up, it’s like, boom, get him. Boom, get him. Boom, get him.” (11:10 — John Karalis)

Can the Celtics Ever Be a Good Rebounding Team?

• Both hosts agree: not with current personnel. Improvement is possible with Tatum back (elite rebounder) and/or a trade deadline acquisition, but “passable” is likely the ceiling.

  “Tatum is a great rebounder. Like, elite rebounder. And they don’t have him. And that sucks.” (15:14 — Tom Westerholm)

  “You just look at this roster and you say, this is not great.” (16:42 — John Karalis)

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Quotes & Memorable Moments

Joe Mazzulla on Navigating Deficiencies

“[W]hat self awareness do we have to have as a team in an organization about where our deficiencies lie and how can we navigate those together?... How can we develop, you know, an identity that gives us a shot to win, you know, every single night and a process towards that throughout a season?” (17:27–18:09 — Joe Mazzulla)

John’s Analysis

• Karalis stresses the importance of self-awareness for a team with a glaring weakness and frames it as a question of “how not bad at rebounding can they get so they [...] let the other parts of their game cover for that?” (18:09–19:51)

Margins: How Many More Rebounds Make a Difference?

• Small improvements yield big rewards: climbing from 30th to 15th in rebounding comes down to 3-5 extra boards per game.

  “Four more rebounds and you’re kind of there... that’s four baskets they’re probably not getting second chance points [on]... Now you’re at a 14 point swing in a game...” (26:39–27:42 — John Karalis)

• Westerholm points out even halved value (7 points) is game-changing in the NBA’s tight margins. (27:42–28:46)

Offsetting Weaknesses with Offensive Rebounding

• Celtics have been strong on the offensive glass in preseason, at times at league-best rates.
• John notes: being great at offensive rebounding can help compensate for defensive rebounding shortcomings, so long as the net is positive (28:57–29:47).

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Structure in the Chaos: Integrating New Pieces

Mazzulla on Building a Functioning Rotation

“If we can find the structure within the chaos and get that, it’ll be difficult for the environment and the opponent over the course of an entire season... The idea is we’re the ones that can practice it every day, and... know the unknowns before our opponent can.” (30:48–31:25 — Joe Mazzulla)

• This process will be tough and slow, especially with new players and the absence of cornerstone pieces like Tatum at present.
• John: “Finding structure in the chaos is difficult, and they’re nowhere close to that yet.” (31:34)

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Setting Realistic Expectations

Early Season “Turbulence”

• The upcoming schedule is unforgiving: Philly (with Embiid), Knicks (rebounding monsters), Pistons, Pelicans, Cavs’ full rosters. (31:35–33:03)
• Early losses or struggles should not be cause for panic; growth is expected to be slow as the “Rubik’s Cube” of the rotation gets solved.
• Tom: “This could be a really fun year. Just...give it some time and keep your hopes up. It’s okay.” (37:20–37:33)

Closing Metaphor

• John compares the upcoming season start to a turbulent plane ascent: hold on, it’ll be rough, but “once you get up in the air...you’ll be okay.” (34:51–36:22)

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• On Defensive Rebounding:

  “Their cumulative defensive rebounding percentage is currently 64.3, which is God awful.” (09:54 — John Karalis)

• On Self-Awareness:

  “What self awareness do we have to have as a team in an organization about where our deficiencies lie and how can we navigate those together?” (17:27 — Joe Mazzulla)

• On Margins Matter:

  “You box out like four more times and you go get four more rebounds, and all of a sudden, you’re up there somewhere.” (26:39 — John Karalis)

• Joe Mazzulla on Structure in Chaos:

  “If we can find the structure within the chaos and get that, it’ll be difficult for the environment and the opponent.” (30:48 — Joe Mazzulla)

• On Expectations:

  “This could be a really fun year. Just give it some time and keep, keep, I don’t know, keep your hopes up. It’s okay.” (37:20 — Tom Westerholm)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Preseason “JV squad” problem: 03:48–06:30
• Discussion of rebounding/turnovers, Mazzulla’s frustration: 06:30–11:10
• Can they ever be a good defensive rebounding team?: 15:14–16:42
• Joe Mazzulla’s philosophy on team deficiencies: 17:22–18:09
• Calculating the rebounding margin/margins matter: 26:03–27:42
• Offensive rebounding as an offset: 28:57–29:47
• Mazzulla on “structure in chaos”: 30:48–31:25

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Tone & Takeaways

The tone is honest, slightly self-deprecating, and realistic—emphasizing the importance of acceptance and adaptation rather than panic about the team’s limitations. Both John and Tom keep the discussion grounded, making it clear that visible preseason weaknesses shouldn’t be ignored, but also that improvement is about small, attainable adjustments—not massive overhauls.

Summary for New Listeners:
If you’re worried about the Celtics’ rebounding (and Joe Mazzulla definitely is), this episode breaks down why it’s a problem, just how much it matters, and why patience is key in the early season. Rather than dramatic changes, expect tweaks, accountability, and a gradual build towards the roster’s best version—just be prepared for a bumpy takeoff before the team finds its groove.

Transcript

[John Corrales]

It's the Locked on podcast network. Your team every day.

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[John Corrales]

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[John Corrales]

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[John Corrales]

With the Business that's ready to work for yours, the Home Depot. We supply the support your job needs with the level of service your business deserves. Streamline operations and get more done with the Home Depot. How pros get more done. I have figured out where the Celtics should land on their whole rebounding issue and what Joe Missoula means by finding structure in the chaos. All right now on Locked on Celtics podcast. Huh? Ready? It's the seas. Who else could it be? What they gonna say now screaming like J.T. corralis recap the madness every game, every practice, prime time. Depp and D. White on the sideline. Ren and J's. How we started raising ban is how we finish. Locked On Celtics pod, Home of the winners. Hey there. Welcome back to the Lockdown Celtics podcast right here in the Lockdown podcast network where it is your team every day. Your team is the Boston Celtics. I talk about them every Monday through Friday. The show is free. It's available everywhere. You get bonus podcasts when they play on a Friday or a Saturday night, so make sure you're subscribed. You can watch the show on YouTube. Get into the comments section there. Share your thoughts with your fellow everydayers. People who are here with me every Monday through Friday. You regular listeners, you know I love you. I'M John Corrales, beat writer for Boston Sports Journal. I've written a couple of books about the team. I've been covering the Celtics for about 20 years. Today's show is brought to you by FanDuel. New customers, you can bet 5 bucks. If your bet wins, you'll get 300 in bonus bets to use across the app. Head to FanDuel.com right now to get started. Celtics practiced on Monday. We got a lot from Joe Missoula, who spent Sunday night very. Oh, agitated, we'll say. Very loquacious, we'll say in the Monday thing. So we're going to hear a couple of quotes from Joe Missoula in the third segment. We'll talk about structure in the chaos. We'll talk about the rebounding. We'll talk, we'll go back and figure out some of these Cavs. What, what to make of that game against the Cavs. We're going to do it with our buddy, Tom Westerholm. Tom, how are you?

[Tom Westerholm]

I'm good, man. How are you?

[John Corrales]

I am great. I'm great. Which means I win.

[Tom Westerholm]

Just one up and, oh, my gosh, I win.

[John Corrales]

I win. That interaction.

[Tom Westerholm]

Boom.

[John Corrales]

Okay, so that's a very Joe Missoula way to start.

[Tom Westerholm]

I was gonna say I was trying to come up with the Missoula way of responding.

[John Corrales]

I've been around him past 12 hours, so it's just, it's like.

[Tom Westerholm]

This is gonna be an unpleasant pod. I am not excited for this.

[John Corrales]

Tom. We have talked about this for three years straight. Celtics, Cavs, third straight game where they faced the back half of a roster. Like, what do you take, what do you take away from this? Anything at all?

[Tom Westerholm]

I mean, I wrote about this yesterday. I feel like, I mean, great that they're beating, like, you know, the teams they should beat by the amount they should beat them by. But, like, man alive, like, I, I, it, it, I, I mean, I, I, I'm, I would love to see what Anthony Simons is going to look like on this team. Right? Because it's like, like I don't expect him to be a great defensive player. I don't really expect him to be a good defensive player. But if he's, I definitely don't expect him to be a good defensive player, but it would be nice to know if he's going to be passable in this system with the guys around him, you know? Like, it would be nice to know if the Celtics are going to be able to hide him. And we just have no idea. We, we have no idea what.

[John Corrales]

What.

[Tom Westerholm]

So, I mean, I, I'm, I'm tired of, of watching teams like, you know, JV squads go out there and, you know, the Celtics try to, you know, like, like figure out if their varsity team is going to look good against the other team's varsity team that isn't present. You know, I, I, I think that we're starting to see guys who, it's very clear, are going to be able to contribute during the regular season. You know, I think I'm really liking what we're seeing from Chris Boucher. I'm really liking what we're seeing from Josh Minot. I mean, the stuff we're seeing from Simons is great, right? Like, that, that that guy can score. I mean, not that there was gonna ever gonna be any doubt that he can score, but, but it's, it's, you know, it's nice. It, it's, it's always fun to watch a guy who, you know, multiple times a game throws up a shot and it hits the back of the rim just enough to barely disturb the net going through. You know, that's, that's just so aesthetically pleasing to watch, especially, especially for your boy who, who, I mean, that's, you know, one of the greatest feelings in the world is watching your shot do that. So, yeah, I mean, I, like, I think there's, I think the Celtics can feel, you know, fine about, like, there's, there's clearly holes in this roster. There's clearly problems. And those problems showed up again against the, which, you know, we're going to get into. But, yeah, I mean, I think that, like, on the whole, there's, there's plenty. There's good players on this team. There's weird places of depth. You know, it's like a, it's like, it's like a lake where there's like, like holes that just kind of like drop off all of a sudden. You know, there's like, wow, there's several good scoring guards on this team. No rebounding, but the guards are going to be able to just score the absolute heck out of the ball.

[John Corrales]

So.

[Tom Westerholm]

Very odd roster, man.

[John Corrales]

It is. Yeah. It's a weird one. There's the, the two things. It's. Look, I can't, I can't get behind the. Oh, they, they've won. Their, their point differential. All that's like. I'm just, I can't, you know, who cares? Who cares what, you know, Jalen Brown, all those guys, like, I asked Jalen about, like, playing against JV teams and does this, does this get you? What does this tell you? And he made a good point. Like defensively, like for the Celtics offense, it is actually pretty kind of helpful because these are a bunch of try hards and all eating. And so the Celtics are facing a ton more full court, three quarter court, half court, high pickup point. Very intense defense that they have to execute against.

[Tom Westerholm]

Now getting shoved to the half court line. Yeah, so much, it's. It's honestly bizarre.

[John Corrales]

So there is some, like when you say, hey, they put up 138 points, like I want to be dismissive of it. They got hot. Yeah. Look, the, the defenders aren't great, but they are trying hard. So there is some kind of duress. But defensively, the Celtics, what, Who cares? Like, you're defending all these. You're starting Dean Wade, you're like, you're. It's. I don't know. You haven't seen what this team is going to be. But the two main areas of concern is you still can't rebound. Obviously. That's a whole big thing. They still can't rebound against these guys. And they're committing a ton of turnovers. Celtics had 22 turnovers against the Cavs and they had 29 against Toronto. 20 of those came in the second half. So it's like big number.

[Tom Westerholm]

They had 29 turnovers against the Raptors. 48 of those came in the fourth quarter, if you can believe it.

[John Corrales]

I mean, it was a little, it was a little nuts. But they, Jalen did admit it's like, hey, these guys, they, they are turning us over. And that is, that is a little bit of a problem. So the Celtics, despite not facing the best opponents, I do find it just a tiny bit concerning that they're turning the ball over as much as they are. And it's definitely concerning that they, their defensive rebounding is as bad as it is.

[Tom Westerholm]

It. It's bad. And I mean, like, it's, it's, it's, it's. It's so noticeably bad that, like, I mean, it's funny, right? Because it's like, are we, are we going to spend the whole season talking about this? You know, like, are we gonna spend. And we all. We're gonna spend the whole.

[John Corrales]

Here's the thing.

[Tom Westerholm]

We're gonna spend the whole season seeing it. Are we gonna spend the whole season talking about it? You know, are we gonna. Are we gonna spend the whole season talking about the ways that they try to make up for it? You know, like, is this gonna derail the whole. I don't know, it's.

[John Corrales]

It's just.

[Tom Westerholm]

It's such a problem, and it's gonna be a problem all year, which is weird.

[John Corrales]

This is so. Okay, this is a great, great transition here for us because number one, the answer to that is no, not necessarily. It's a big issue. It was a big issue after this game because once again, it's the three. It's three straight games against three JV teams. And their cumulative defensive rebounding percentage is currently 64.3, which is God awful.

[Tom Westerholm]

That's so bad.

[John Corrales]

That is. That would been. That would have been worse than the league by like 4 or 5%.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

And there are teams that are rebound that are much, much worse. The. The Miami Heat, the Golden State warriors are at 63 and a half percent. This is funny, though. There are 34 teams listed in the stats because the Southeast Melbourne, Phoenix.

[Tom Westerholm]

Oh, right.

[John Corrales]

63.2% ahead of the Utah Jazz, who are 62 and a half percent. So if you think things are bad here, at least you're not the Utah Jazz.

[Tom Westerholm]

So not the South Melbourne.

[John Corrales]

Right. But. But Melbourne United is at 67.9, so they're better. They're 14th in. In the preseason. So what do they got?

[Tom Westerholm]

Can the Celtics go get a couple of those guys?

[John Corrales]

I don't know. I don't know. Go pick up some Melbourne United guys. I have no idea who's on that team.

[Tom Westerholm]

Joe's been saying he's looking for five guys who will rebound. Maybe that person is in Melbourne.

[John Corrales]

Maybe. Could be. So look, you gotta. You gotta find them. You gotta find them. Just find the five guys. Doesn't matter who it is. Boom.

[Tom Westerholm]

Five guys.

[John Corrales]

Okay, so that's. That's the. The answer.

[Tom Westerholm]

Post game. And me looking for a good hamburger.

[John Corrales]

That's good. I like that one.

[Tom Westerholm]

Thank you.

[John Corrales]

So it's been so bad. And Joe spent the entire first half of that game. As soon as somebody screwed up, it's like, boom, get him. Boom. Get him. Boom. Get him. And so he's trying to send a message and. But like, because he's doing that, we're like, damn, we're all watching. We're like, we got. We. Now we have to ask because, you know, it might not have been. It might have been a story. It might have been a question after the game because, you know, still trouble rebounding, but because Joe was like rapid firing. Like it's a dizzying kind of parade up and down now. Well, now we have to ask because it's so obvious that he's pissed off about it. So at some point that's going to dissipate. When will that dissipate? That's the next segment where we are going to play this quote from Joe and I think we find where we settle to answer the other part of your question on the defensive rebounding. So we're going to do that when we come back. Today's show is brought to you by fanduel. Fanduel is going to give you new customers a great deal. You make your first five dollar bet and if you win, you get $300. You unlock 300 in bonus bets to use across the app. So make it a good one. You want to bet on the NFL Patriots to win. I like that. That seems like an easy win, you know, who knows? But no such thing as an easy win, I guess. But that might be the easiest look you're going to get. The cleanest look you're going to get at five bucks turning into 300. If you do hit man, you can use that, that 300 across the app. You can build parlays, you can try player props, you can do live lines. So if you're watching, maybe you're watching the Celtics game and they're up 20 and you want to kind of see where that line sits and, and maybe make a bet at that point you can do it all. So whether you're a casual fan, if you love diving into the stats, FanDuel makes the game day experience so much easier. Make sure you're using the tools that they have available. Set your budget, set your limit so you're gambling responsibly wherever you can afford to lose. If you hit a cold streak, you're not getting yourself into any trouble. You're just having some fun with your disposable income. So go have some [e-mail], download the FanDuel app today and get started. Today's show is also brought to you by Monarch Money. Monarch Money is going to help you, the busiest person in the world, keep track of your financial picture. It's an all in one personal finance tool that brings your entire financial life together in one clean, easy to use interface on your laptop, on your phone. So if you just need a little help keeping track of where your money is, what your investments are looking like, your 401k a property, if you own one, whatever investments you might have, a lot of people can't really express what their full financial picture is. If you're like me, especially I'm in my 50s, this is the time where I really gotta buckle down So I can get ready for retirement, hopefully in less than 20 years. So get that Monarch money app. You can spend a couple minutes just putting all your accounts together. It categorizes everything, gives you a real fresh look. You don't have to touch a spreadsheet. So go check it out. Use the code lockdown [e-mail] you get half off your first year with the code locked on NBA 50 off your first [e-mail] with the code lockedon NB. Thank you for making lockdown Celtics your first listen. Every day. Go check out Lockdown Fantasy basketball. Josh Lloyd hosts the number one fantasy basketball podcast around on the planet, in the universe, in the multiverse. He's giving you daily tips to help you win your league. Makes you a smarter NBA fan on top of it. Check out Lockdown Fantasy basketball. Wherever you found this podcast, watch it on YouTube. All right, Tom, so the defensive rebounding. Let's. Let's be honest here. Look at this roster and tell me, are they ever gonna be a good defensive rebounding team?

[Tom Westerholm]

No, I could, I could. I could get myself close to. They could be passable if they make a move at the trade deadline and Tatum comes back. Right. Because, like, part of the problem here, right, is that Tatum is a great rebounder. Yeah. Like elite rebounder. And they don't have him. And that sucks. Like, so really does hurt that. That's one where it's like, you know, Jalen and Tatum. That. That's just one that Jalen will never make up for Tatum's production. Sure. It's not gonna happen. So, like, you get Tatum back and you get a rebounder at the deadline, maybe you can get back to passable. But like the rest of the team is. It's rough, you know, I mean, White's a pretty good rebounder for a guard. And you know what I mean?

[John Corrales]

That's where you hit the snow. And that's the thing. You look at this roster and you say, well, Keda could probably get you a few rebounds. But look, I have expressed what I needed to express about Namishkeda. He's not gonna be on the floor enough to be a rebounder.

[Tom Westerholm]

Just to go on record, you and I agree.

[John Corrales]

Yeah. Okay, so then who are your other options? Is Luca Garza going to be a big time defensive rebounder? No. You mean he'll get some.

[Tom Westerholm]

He's okay because he's, He's. He does well at positioning and everything. You know, he's a. He's a good basketball player, but he's good, but.

[John Corrales]

Yeah, but he's not. He's not gonna, like, move the needle. Right. He's not averaging 14 rebounds a game. Right. Okay.

[Tom Westerholm]

Right.

[John Corrales]

So Chris Boucher is not going to be a big time. And. And Xavier Tillman is not going to be a big rebounder. So that you just look at this roster and you say, this is not a great. This is just not great. So here's Joe Missoula. He was asked about him and, like, just adjusting with the, with the, the team and just building these relationships with the players to get them to kind of perform. You got to listen closely. I'll. I'll give you the, the quote that I pulled out, but listen closely and see what you think the important part of this quote is.

[Joe Mazzulla]

It's growing together, having an understanding. It's not, you know, this way or the highway. There's a.

[John Corrales]

There's a.

[Joe Mazzulla]

There's a. That's what training camp is about. That's what this, the six to nine weeks in the summer that are about. That's what you build relationships with people. You have an understanding of what makes someone tick, what motivates someone. At the same time, you have an understanding of, like, can you build awareness as a team? What gives us the best chance to win every single night? You know, what gives us the best chance to play to our strengths? What self awareness do we have to have as a team in an organization about where our deficiencies lie and how can we navigate those together? And so it's not adjusting them, adjusting to me or any of that. It's us working together on coming up with, how can we push each other to be our absolute best? And at the same time, how can we develop, you know, an identity that gives us a shot to win, you know, every single night and a process towards that throughout a season? You know.

[John Corrales]

Okay, yeah, here's, here's the part. What self awareness do we have as a team and an organization about where our deficiencies lie and how can we navigate those together? That is basically saying, okay, can we all get together and be aware we know we're not a great defensive rebounding team. Self awareness. Just like I'm not the best handyman in the world when it comes to fixing something or putting something together, I always have a piece left over. I know where my strengths lie. I know where I'm good at. You got to understand what you're not good at. And, like, can you. How do you navigate that? So it's not about, can the Celtics ever be a good defensive Rebounding team. No. How good or how not bad is the best way to put it. How not bad at rebounding can they get so they can let the other parts of their games cover for that? And, like, so can you be the 30th team in the league at defensive rebounding and give yourself a chance to win? Probably not. Can you be 25, 20, 15? How high on that rank? Like, what's the lowest number you can be? Where the other parts of what you guys can do well can be, like, okay, we're not a good defensive rebounding team, but we make up for it. Doing X, Y, and Z. That's the question that the Celtics have to answer.

[Tom Westerholm]

I think there's another interesting part of that quote, too, and it's at the beginning when he's talking about how there's all this time. You know, that six. You know, that. That the. What do you say? Like, the six to nine weeks, all that stuff, you know, and he's talking about getting to know his players as people, right?

[John Corrales]

Yeah.

[Tom Westerholm]

And so I think that's. That's interesting in the context of last night, where he's talking about, like, okay, I got to know these guys as people, and now I. I have to, like, be their coach, and I have to, like, try to get the most out of them. I have to figure out what makes them. Yeah, I got to know what makes them tick, and I got to know, like, how I can push them. What's the best way? What can guys handle? What do you know, all that kind of stuff. And. And then when you look at him yanking guys as soon as they make mistakes on the defensive end, it's like, you know, we. We've talked about this. You know, is one of the things that Missoula is good at, right, is. Is, like, having that level of understanding of guys where it's like, I know that I can get away with yanking this guy. I know that to motivate this guy, one of the things I have to do is just tell him, like, if you don't rebound the ball, you're not gonna play. Or if you don't, you know, like, I. Like, if you make these mistakes, like. Or you're not.

[John Corrales]

Not.

[Tom Westerholm]

You're not gonna play, but I'm gonna yank you out of this game. And, like, then I'll put you back, but, like, I'm gonna pull you out, and I'm gonna have some words for you if you don't go get this rebound. So it's like. I think that's part of it. Too, right? And I think, you know, it's interesting to tie that to the self awareness about where our deficiencies are, right? Because it's like, it's like taking the whole picture. It's like to what you're saying, how can the Celtics get themselves to 17th instead of 30th, right? Or how can they get themselves to 21st instead of 30th or whatever it is. And part of the answer there, right, is like, okay, like I need to, I need to be able to like talk to these guys and have us all come together and come to an agreement that we are going to try really hard not to be the worst defensive rebounding team in the league. Or, you know, we're going to, we're going to do the right things. We're going to try to mitigate as much as we can. And you know, for Joe, part of his job is motivation is, is getting to know these guys and just pushing them just enough to, to get them to 21st.

[John Corrales]

But listen, all right, we're going to take a break. When we come back, the actual number of rebounds that you have to get to to be the difference between 30 and 15 is. It seems great. It's not, it's not that bad. It's, it's actually attainable. The number is not as big as you think. Plus finding structure within the chaos. That is all next. Today's show is brought to you by Peloton. Peloton is shaping the future of fitness with the brand new Peloton cross training tread plus. It's powered by Peloton iq. It's their most advanced equipment yet. Designed to give you real time, guidance and endless ways to move. Whether you are running, lifting or cross training with your favorite trainers, we know it's tough to get to the gym. The Peloton Cross training Tread plus. You can do all of this stuff in your home. It's built for breakthroughs with tools that help you plan, stay motivated, reach peak performance. The Peloton IQ system offers real time strength coaching. It actually tracks your reps. It suggests the right weights, which is important, and corrects your form, which is super important. Making every rep safer and smarter. That's how you get gains. The swivel screen is a game changer. You can go from running on the Tread plus to strength training without missing a beat. And the personalized crash class recommendations keep you engaged. You get workouts tailored to your vibe and energy level each week. So let yourself run, lift, flex and push forward. Explore the new Peloton Cross training Thread plus today at one peloton.

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[John Corrales]

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[John Corrales]

You for making Lockdown Celtics your first listen. Every day check out Lockdown NBA locked on NBA game night. Game night seven days a week. It's covering all the games in the league. Locked on NBA is in the afternoons Monday through Friday covering the big stories. You check that out. Wherever you found this podcast, I'm, I'm keeping myself from laughing because I miss. You know, you read something fast and you're like, I said class recommendations, but I said crass first recommendations. And I'm just laughing at the, the potential crass recommendations that a fitness machine would be giving you. It's just like, okay, we're just gonna stick to the class recommendations. Yes, and just that. That's much better than the words that came out of my mouth. Okay, so I'm looking at last year's stats. The defensive rebounding percentage. At the bottom, the Philadelphia 76 are 67.8. As we've established, the cells are well below that in the preseason. In the middle at 15. 70.9, the Phoenix Suns. That is 3% of the misses that you could. What's 3%? How many misses are there per game? Like if you shoot 90 shots, all right, and you shoot 45, you, you are missing somewhere. What, 40, 40 shots? Something like that. So I'm not going to do the percentages in my head, but somewhere in that range, it's. It's not.

[Tom Westerholm]

You say. I mean, make it easier, right? Say, say, say you make 100 shots.

[John Corrales]

Okay.

[Tom Westerholm]

You had a really good game. You shot. You shot 50, right? Okay, so then if 3% right is a shot and a half.

[John Corrales]

Okay, yeah, so that's it. So a couple more rebounds, three more rebounds. That's it. So the Celtics and how bad they've been, so you get to add like. But we're literally talking about 3, 4, 5 more rebounds, 5 more rebounds, defensive rebounds per game. And you're great. Not great, but good.

[Tom Westerholm]

You're Buy More and you're good.

[John Corrales]

Yeah, you're good, right? You're.

[Tom Westerholm]

That's it.

[John Corrales]

That's good. Yeah, because I knocked my microphone. But like, that's. It's. Joe talks about this stuff all the time. The margins are so small. We talk about things in such grand terms. Like, oh my God, this is so the 30th in the league. They got to get up to 15th. How are they going to do that? How do you climb 15 spots? You box out like four more times and you go get four more rebounds, and all of a sudden you're up there somewhere. Depending. Now, of course, it depends on the rest of the team, the rest of the league and all that stuff, but four more rebounds and you're. You're kind of there. You're kind of there because that's four baskets that they're probably not getting second chance points. That's four opportunities to get on and run. You score on a couple of those, you get a couple of free throws that, that's. You're talking about eight points that you're preventing on one end, maybe six points that you're. You're scoring on the other end. Now you're at a 14 point swing in a game that is so critically important. And it's just four rebounds.

[Tom Westerholm]

And even if you like, like 14 points or you know, however many, that. That's a lot, right? That. That's a big number. Let's say. Let's say the other team was gonna miss two of those shots anyway, and you were gonna miss two shots either. And all of a sudden it's like seven points. Like seven points matters a lot. If your team is down 12 in the last minute, you're probably gonna lose. If your team is down 5, it's still a game. And like, and at that point, it's like it be. You know, it's this butterfly effect of like, you know, if you get those rebounds and Even if you get like seven extra points, that might then motivate you to play harder in the last minute or two. Right. When, when it is a four point game instead of a, you know, 11, 12, 13 point game. And, and, and that's. You like. Yeah, I think you're exactly right. And Joe's exactly right about that one. Right. Like the, the margins are. It's the NBA. The margins are so small. Everything is so, you know, the NBA is so optimized. Everything in the. Even, even on the court, everything is so precise. And, and, you know.

[John Corrales]

Right.

[Tom Westerholm]

Pinpoint that. Like, small things make a big difference. So.

[John Corrales]

And this is why we're talking about how bad can you be?

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

While letting your other. The, you know, strengths carry you. Look, look at the offensive rebounding percentage. Against Toronto, 47.8. Against Cleveland, 39.5. Against Memphis, 31.7. Last year, the Houston Rockets were number one at 36.3. So the Celtics had two games where they would be the best offensive rebounding team. So, okay, you're not going to be a great defensive rebounding team. We get it. But they crash. And that is, if you can be great on that end, you can afford to be a little not so great on the other end because you're giving yourself more chances and you're putting up more, more shot attempts. So that's it. That's why we're sitting there saying the difference is 3, 4 rebounds. If they can do that, they'll be okay. And that's all they need to do.

[Tom Westerholm]

Right. It's just. You just gotta mitigate.

[John Corrales]

That's all it is. Yeah, good word. All right, I'm gonna play this one more quote here from Joe because I thought it was interesting about. I asked him. You'll hear my question. I asked him about. He went on that big rant about gotta find the two for one, like big long. The. My offensive velocities. Find the two for one, make the right play, make the right read. If it's a three, it's a three. If it's a layup, it's a layup, whatever it is. And that's fine for a team the last two years kind of knew who you were. Now you've got all these new guys and all these new lineups.

[Tom Westerholm]

You knew who you were and you had a perfect two for one machine named Jason Tatum. Right on one machine, Jason Tatum.

[John Corrales]

So then I was like, well, that, that doesn't seem like it's going to be very easy to do. So here's. Here's my. My question, and here's his answer. So when you had last year's team, the year before, very established, you knew the rotations, all that stuff pretty much right away this year you're deeper. You're kind of mixing and matching. How much more difficult does that make that process that you're talking about? There's so many more people involved. Yeah.

[Joe Mazzulla]

So I think a. It makes it more difficult for us in the short term, but the idea is to make it more difficult for our opponents in the long term, because if we could find the structure within the chaos and get that, it'll be difficult for the environment and the opponent over the course of an entire season. And so it's difficult on both parts. The idea is we're the ones that can practice it every day, and we can. We can know the unknowns before our opponent can. So if we can quickly know the unknowns and put our, you know, opposition in a situation to where they can't, then that helps. So it's difficult on both parts. Ideally, we have to make it simpler, faster, so that we could be, you know, ahead of the environment and ahead of the opponent.

[John Corrales]

I wanted to play that just because it lets us in on how long a process this is going to be.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

And I think when we look at the. The Celtics schedule, that, that first couple of weeks is going to be tough. Like, I asked Jalen about playing these different opponents, said these, these road games here are going to be, you know, very, very kind of indicative. Here you play Philly on the opening night, Embiid might play. You play the Knicks. I mean, that. That Nick, that Knicks team is a big rebounding, like, monster rebounding team. The Pistons get after it, the Pelicans, who knows, the Cavs, who will likely play everybody. And then like, this is a stretch where it's like, this is not going to be forgiving. And just so people know, it's going to be difficult in the short term. Like Joe said, finding structure in the chaos is difficult, and they're nowhere close to that yet. So I kind of wanted to play that. I know we're kind of at the end of the show, but the Celtics have a long way to go, and I think we might be looking at an October, November that's going to be like. But hopefully January, February, March, they'll be on the upswing. But I. I'm just. I'm not sure what to expect considering what he said and that whole structure within the chaos quote. I'm not sure what to expect in. In the Short term, I think it's important to.

[Tom Westerholm]

For, like, just from. From a. From an expectations perspective. I think it's important to remember, like, okay, it. I think for Celtics fans, it felt really good to see them be. Especially that Grizzlies game, right, where it's like, you went into the summer with just the worst. Just the worst vibes. Everything awful, awful. Like, just bad, bad, bad, bad. It's all bad. Guys who you love are gone. The team stinks. They're getting under the second apron all of a sudden, and it's like, what, are they gonna tank? This is awful. Like, you know, yada, yada. And then, you know, things start. You know, you're like little. Little bits here and there. It's like, okay, maybe this is good. You get that Grizzlies game, and, like, the new guys look fun and good. Like, you know, Garza looks good, Minot looks good. All this stuff, right? You get a big win, and it's just like. Like, it feels good. There's going to be ups and downs this season, and I think you're right. Right. I think the beginning of the season, there's going to be some downs, right? There's. There's a lot of teams there who are. Are really good. And if the Celtics start losing some games early on, I think it's like, it's important to remember that, you know, the team is. The team isn't as good as last year.

[John Corrales]

Yeah.

[Tom Westerholm]

But there's still going to be positives throughout the season, and how positive it gets, I don't know. Nobody knows yet. But, like, the beginning could be rough just because you. You beat some JV teams and it's okay. It's a little bit of candy.

[John Corrales]

He deserves some candy.

[Tom Westerholm]

Anybody? Well, if you go to the hospital, you get some candy. Like, sure, in the hospital, it's been rough, but, like, you know, you're gonna have to start eating some veggies again soon here. And the veggies are going to be Donovan Mitchell, just Simons.

[John Corrales]

I. I'm. I'm suddenly reminded of the story of the Celtics team playing, taking off like in a nor', easter, trying to get. Forget what year was a few years ago. And the story of the pilot coming over the loudspeaker and saying, all right, guys, Mother Nature's gonna have her way with us on our way out of here. And it was like everybody was like, oh, my God, I thought I was gonna die. Like, it was so bad. This kind of feels like the pilot's gonna come over the loudspeaker and be like, all right, guys, Mother Nature's gonna have her way with us at the beginning here. Just hold on. We're gonna get through it. Once we get up in the air, probably. We'll probably get through it. The odds are we're gonna get through it.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah. Yeah.

[John Corrales]

We'll get up in the air. We should be okay. We should be okay. And then we'll land the plane and, you know, probably land the plane, and we'll have. We'll all have a story to tell. Yeah. But. Yeah, the. The turbulence on the ascent is gonna be there. Just.

[Tom Westerholm]

You're gonna be shaken by the time. If things calm down. Yeah.

[John Corrales]

By the time we get to that second Philly game, there's gonna be a lot of rosary beads and, you know, all of that stuff. Yeah.

[Tom Westerholm]

It's.

[John Corrales]

It's not going to be great, but.

[Tom Westerholm]

We'Re gonna kind of, you know, like. Like, there's gonna be vomit bags in places.

[John Corrales]

Yeah.

[Tom Westerholm]

Things are gonna.

[John Corrales]

Yes.

[Tom Westerholm]

Your luggage is not gonna be where it started.

[John Corrales]

But just know that once you get up in the air, there's Utah and Washington.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

And, you know, it's like. It's. You'd be okay. It'll be okay. So we'll see. Probably. I believe in setting expectations.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

I don't know what this team is going to be at the end. We could be looking at a team that looks pretty good.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

On the All Star break. I'm certainly not a. You know, I. I think there's talent here. They. I just. I don't. They don't know how to use it yet. They don't know. They don't know which pieces fit together. It really is kind of like Rubik's qb. You're like, okay, this turn. No, no, this turn. You feel good about their ability to get there. It's just right now, they're still like. I don't think they got, like, one side filled yet, so.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Corrales]

And I know.

[Tom Westerholm]

I know we're super late on time, but it's also. That's part of the reason why it's interesting that Missoula keeps yanking guys out, because it's like. Okay, that's partly to, like, get out. Get on them about rebounding, but it's also partly like. Yeah. I don't know. Try something else you got.

[John Corrales]

Yeah.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah. Twist it.

[John Corrales]

Yeah. Keep going. Whatever.

[Tom Westerholm]

Like, whatever.

[John Corrales]

Yeah.

[Tom Westerholm]

I think. I think setting expectations is important. This could be a really fun year. Just kind of keep hoping for a fun year because it totally could happen. Just give it. Give it some time and keep, keep, I don't know, keep your hopes up. It's okay.

[John Corrales]

Yes, don't. If, if the first, if the beginning of the season, it may not, but if the beginning of the season is tough, just power through, power through and.

[Tom Westerholm]

It might never get better. But like, I don't know, miserable person, it'll be all right.

[John Corrales]

All right, Tom here, man.

[Tom Westerholm]

Appreciate you.

[John Corrales]

I appreciate you. Tom Wester home. Always a beacon of positivity. Mr. Tom Wester Home. Thank you. I appreciate all the listeners, everybody watching, everybody listening, everybody becoming every dayer. If you're new, hope you enjoyed the show. Hopefully you're going to subscribe. Join me on this journey every Monday through Friday. Bonus podcast when they plan the weekends, get into the comments section on the YouTube page, share your thoughts and then I would love it if you shared the whole podcast. Tell everybody they should be listening to and watching the Lockdown Celtics podcast here on the Lockdown Podcast Network. It's your team every day.

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[John Corrales]

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