UNCOMFORTABLE: Celtics PUSH through growing pains | KEEP Anfernee Simons?

Summary

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Locked On Celtics - Celtics PUSH Through Growing Pains & The Anfernee Simons Question

Host: John Karalis
Guest: Tom Westerholm
Date: November 26, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, John Karalis and guest Tom Westerholm dive deep into the Boston Celtics' early-season struggles and why moving outside their comfort zones may yield positive results down the line. They examine how team roles are evolving, highlight individual challenges—particularly for Jaylen Brown and Derrick White—and debate Anfernee Simons’ emerging value to the Celtics' roster and future flexibility. The conversation blends thoughtful analysis with humor, candor, and a clear understanding of the Celtics’ locker room dynamics.

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Celtics Pushing Through Growing Pains: Learning by Discomfort

Timestamps:

• Key discussion begins: [03:22]

Everyone Out of Their Comfort Zone

• Broad Theme: Nearly the entire team, from Jaylen Brown to Brad Stevens, is operating outside familiar roles or responsibilities. This has led to inconsistency, but also potential for long-term benefits.
• John Karalis: "Everyone else, from Jalen to Joe Mazzulla to everybody, you know, Brad Stevens, everybody's out of their comfort zone right now… that's part of why there's no consistency to this team, because no one is doing the thing that they're used to doing." ([03:54])
• Only Sam Hauser has a role unchanged from last year.

Two Possible Outcomes

• Players either acclimate to new demands and grow, or the team seeks changes and possible departures.
  • “Either...you figure it out and great, you figured out this new role...or you can never figure it out and the Celtics say, thanks, but no thanks. Maybe a change of scenery will help you out.” – John Karalis ([05:39])

Examples:

• Jaylen Brown: Taking on a heavier workload and primary scoring responsibilities while missing the simple, flow-based offense of prior seasons. Struggling at times with reads and passing that don’t come as naturally in this new environment.
• Peyton Pritchard: Continues to excel because of his adaptability—“just a pure Hooper.”

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Jaylen Brown’s Challenging (But Promising) Evolution

Timestamps:

• Focused Jaylen segment: [07:12] - [11:54]

The Weight of Expectations

• Karalis: Emphasizes that Jaylen’s role—possibly 2nd in the league in usage—is demanding more than he bargained for.
  • "The workload is more than he expected. The scoring is tougher than he thought. ...On a drive, he’s just kind of like, let me lean my head down...and try to score…he’s not in a position to say, I’m just going to give this ball up." ([08:48])
• Brown’s ball distribution and the offensive flow have suffered as players are still learning each other in new roles.

Long-Term Potential

• Karalis: Post-Tatum return could bring a more egalitarian offense.
  • "Next season has the potential to be as equal a partnership...It’s been Jason first and then Jalen, but next season could be a lot more equal." ([10:50])
• Westerholm: "Watching Jaylen Brown this year has been an actual delight. This is a fully realized Jalen Brown...I would like to see more of it.” ([11:54])

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Derrick White’s Struggles: Out of Rhythm, But Still Positive

Timestamps:

• Start: [15:05] | Deep Dive: [16:00] - [21:37]

Usage and Shooting Woes

• White’s off-the-dribble jumpers up 20%, rise in contested layups, field goal % at the rim dropped 18 points.
• Taking more low and medium-quality shots per game, but shooting worse from every area and quality compared to last year.
• Karalis: "He’s getting a couple more shots...but the extra shots that he’s getting are not any good." ([15:58])

Defensive Consistency

• Remains a net positive, mainly due to defense: "The defense, they're 10 points better with him on the floor." ([17:05], via Westerholm)
• The offense drops when he's playing, but his defensive impact stabilizes the team.

Outlook & Significance

• Karalis: “If he can figure this out, this changes dramatically...If these guys can come together [by]; the end of the season, then…the Celtics got something.” ([17:23])
• Westerholm: “If Derek and Jalen lineups can go out and handle more minutes, you don’t have to play Jason as much. That just makes things a lot simpler down the stretch.” ([17:23])
• On frustration with sporadic scoring: "We haven’t seen an extended, like, okay, like we saw it with Payton...where’s Derek’s like three, four game stretch? ...That’s the only thing I’m waiting for." ([22:55])

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The Team’s Resilience Despite Poor Shooting

Timestamps: [23:11] - [24:26]

• Point: Three best shooters—White, Hauser, (and Simons, by implication)—are all slumping, and yet Boston maintains a winning record.
• With even average shooting, record could easily be 12-5, putting them in the top three of the East.
• Westerholm: “You could easily say with a normal shooting start a few of these games go a different way…and you’d be third seed right now.” ([24:05])

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Anfernee Simons: Changing His Narrative & Calculating His Value

Timestamps:

• Segment begins: [27:14]

Simons’ Recent Upswing and Role Evolution

• Recent strong performances: back-to-back 23-point games.
• Learning to impact the game off the bench, as highlighted by both Simons and Joe Mazzulla.
  • “Now I’m learning, like, oh, I know when I come in, I gotta start. I gotta start scoring right away because I don’t have the same number of minutes as I used to have.” (Paraphrased from [29:22])
• Displaying scoring variety—not just reliant on threes.

Future Contract and Fit in Boston

• Contract set to expire; Simons not likely to receive a raise over his current $27M.
  • Karalis: “He’s not going to get $27 million on the open market. He’s not going to get a raise.” ([28:50])
• Potential Scenario: Boston could retain him at a bargain mid-level deal (approximately $15M per year for three years), providing a valuable, movable contract in future trades.

Market Dynamics

• Westerholm compares Simons’ archetype to Jordan Clarkson and similar score-first, defense-light guards, whose market value has declined.
  • "He’s better than [Clarkson], he’s clearly better, but...contractually...I don’t know that he’s going to do a lot better.” ([31:22])
• Karalis: “Anthony Simons at three years, $45 million is not bad. That’s about right I think for him...You put it right at that mid level number, knowing that you can always trade him and teams could use their mid-level exception to accept him in a trade.” ([33:03])
• Offers flexibility for Celtics roster-building under new CBA.

Notable Quote

• Karalis (on mid-tier NBA contracts): “Getting $15 million a year. Yeah, right. I hope I get screwed out of...and get $15 million a year. Please. Somebody really, really put one over on me.” ([36:30])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the team’s discomfort:

• “Everyone’s out of their comfort zone right now.” – John Karalis ([03:54])

On Jaylen Brown’s evolution:

• “Watching Jaylen Brown this year has been an actual delight. This is a fully realized Jaylen Brown...that rules.” – Tom Westerholm ([11:54])

On Derrick White’s struggles:

• “We haven’t seen an extended, like...where’s Derek’s three, four-game stretch of 'okay, he’s back, we got it.'”—John Karalis ([22:55])

On Simons’ value:

• “Anthony Simons at three years, $45 million is not bad. That’s about right I think for him...You put it right at that mid level number.” – John Karalis ([33:03])

On NBA contract inflation:

• “Kevin Garnett, people were just like rending their clothes over Kevin Garnett’s contract. And now, now that’s what you…like, those I, I, listen...”—John Karalis ([32:55])

Humor throughout:

• The running philanthropic joke about being “screwed” into $15M/year. ([36:30])

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Conclusions & Takeaways

• Short-Term Pain for Long-Term Gain: The Celtics’ current discomfort and growing pains are challenging, but the hosts are optimistic the team will benefit from developing broader skillsets and resilience.
• Spotlight on Individual Growth: Jaylen Brown’s workload, Derrick White’s shooting slump, and Anfernee Simons’ adaptation provide blueprints for how adversity can become advantage—next season, if not by playoffs.
• Roster Flexibility: Simons’ contract situation exemplifies the new CBA realities, giving Boston future options and leverage.
• Optimistic Tone: Despite offensive struggles, hosts see a “delightful” Jaylen Brown season, defensive silver linings, and the foundation for a more dangerous Celtics squad as roles settle.

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Segment Timestamps

• Out of Comfort Zone: [03:22]
• Jaylen Brown’s Challenges: [07:12]
• Derrick White’s Struggles: [15:05]
• Team Resilience Despite Shooting: [23:11]
• Anfernee Simons’ Fit and Future: [27:14]
• Simons’ Contract Value: [31:22]

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For Celtics fans seeking insight on the team's current ups and downs—and a look ahead to roster maneuvering—this episode delivers sharp, honest analysis and a sense that the best may be yet to come.

Transcript

[John Karalis]

Foreign. Every day.

[Tom Westerholm]

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[John Karalis]

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[Tom Westerholm]

Huh?

[John Karalis]

Yup. Beam Town be ever ready. It's the seas. Who else could it be? What they gonna say now screaming like J.T. corralis recap the madness every game, every practice prime time Depp and D White on the sideline Renin J's how we started raising banners how we finish Locked on Celtics pod Home of the winners B welcome back to the Lockdown Celtics Podcast right here on the Lockdown Podcast Network. Where is your team every day? And your team is the Boston Celtics. I talk about them Monday through Friday plus bonus podcasts like this weekend when they play on a Friday or a Saturday. So subscribe. The show is free. It's available Everywhere. It's on YouTube. Get into the comment section. Share your thoughts with me. John Corralis, Beat writer for Boston Sports Journal I have been doing a version of this job for 20 years. I've been doing this podcast for 10 and I've written a couple of books about the team as well. Today's show is brought to you by Game Time. Download the Game Time app, create an account, use the code Locked on NBA for $20 off your first purchase. Later on, we'll talk about Anthony Simons, who may be changing the conversation about Anthony Simons. We'll get into some of Derrick White's changing role and we'll start with the Celtics being out of their comfort zone and why that may ultimately lead to some positive results, even though it's not getting the most consistent results now. And joining me is Tom Westerholm.

[Tom Westerholm]

Thank you.

[John Karalis]

Thank you.

[Tom Westerholm]

I'm good. I'm outside. Come my. Outside my comfort zone. Nah, I don't know.

[John Karalis]

Fair. You know, whatever.

[Tom Westerholm]

I'm in my house. I'm doing the pod. I'm pretty comfortable. But let's.

[John Karalis]

It's as comfort zone as it gets. Yeah. Podcasting from the comfort of your own home. Yeah.

[Tom Westerholm]

Not a lot of. Not a lot of discomfort to complain about from that.

[John Karalis]

No, no. So. But the Celtics, I think when you look at. Just kind of struck me hearing how guys were talking about how much they're learning. It's just a constant how much we're learning, how much we're figuring out, you know, Josh Minot starting, not starting. And Josh, by the way, having a great line about starting and then not starting, saying, oh, I love that. If you're poor and I gave you $20 and then immediately took it away. Did you ever have any money in the first place like that? You're like, okay, yeah, I get it. But all of these guys.

[Tom Westerholm]

The one note I would. I would make about Josh's thing is it's more like if somebody gave him $50 and then took away 30 of it, you know, you still got a role. You're still.

[John Karalis]

Yeah.

[Tom Westerholm]

On the depth chart.

[John Karalis]

Like, you.

[Tom Westerholm]

You got. You got some money still. You just don't have the original 50.

[John Karalis]

Right, right. It's like somebody said, oh, wait, oh, I give you an extra. Sorry.

[Tom Westerholm]

I guess I actually need 20 of that back. I forgot. Any gas? I gotta.

[John Karalis]

Had the 20. This was supposed to be for you. I gave you the 50 that I had in my wallet.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[John Karalis]

Mind if we just real quick. This is very science. Just real quick that. I didn't mean to give that to you. I meant to give back this.

[Tom Westerholm]

And ordinarily it wouldn't be a problem, but I got a thing.

[John Karalis]

Yeah, I got a thing. And I need the. The 50. I need. I need specifically that $50 bill. So. But they're all asked, every single one of them. I think maybe Sam Houser is the only one that I can think of that is currently in a role that maybe that's been his role for a while now. Everyone else, from Jalen to Joe Missoula to everybody, you know, Brad Stevens, everybody's out of their comfort zone right now. And it's just it's just striking to me that. That that's the case. So I. I don't know. I talked to the guys about. About. At practice on. Was it Tuesday? And I think ultimately that's part of why there's no consistency to this team, because no one is doing the thing that they're supposed to do or no one's doing things that they're used to doing. Once they get used to that role, maybe things will work out. And I think that's where getting. Getting to that point is where everything becomes beneficial. Like, either Tom, you figure it out and great, you figured out this new role, this new responsibility, and we move forward, or you can never figure it out. And the Celtics say, thanks, but no thanks. Maybe a change of scenery will help you out.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah, for sure. I think. You know, it's funny you mentioned Hauser, and it's like, even he. Before the season, we were talking about, like, is he gonna have to, like, take some more shots off the dribble? You know, it's. He hasn't. And I think that's actually one of the reasons why. Peyton Pritchard has been really good. Even though he, too, is, like, you know, expanding out of his comfort zone, he's still been really good, even though he's not necessarily making threes because he did step out of his comfort zone. Peyton Pritchard is just such a pure Hooper sometimes that it's like. Like, you just tell him to go do basketball stuff. He's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Bet that's, like, the thing I know how to do is. Is play basketball. So I'll just go, you know, I know how to do all the things in basketball, so let me. Let me go give that a shot. But, yeah, no, I. I think you're right. I mean, I think. I think it will be interesting. Some of the roles, when they start to revert back. Back. I think it will be interesting, right? It's like, you know, Jalen, you know, he's. I don't necessarily think he's been out of his comfort zone other than just the workload. Right. Like, it's just, like, such a crazy workload. I. I think it will be very interesting to see. Like, okay, when. When Tatum comes back, like, how. Does. How does slotting back into what he was doing before, you know, affect him?

[John Karalis]

Like.

[Tom Westerholm]

Like, does it affect him, like, all. I think that'll be really interesting. Like, he's got a. He's gonna have kind of a. An interesting readjustment that way. But, yeah, I think you Know, Joe Missoula would. Has got it. Like, just. It's very much his ethos to have all these guys be pushed and just try to be like, pushed beyond what they're comfortable doing. Push like, okay, like, learn how to do something new. And if you can learn how to do something new, then you've got it and that's great. And that's a new skill that you can then bring to the team afterward. Like very Joe Missoula coded.

[John Karalis]

Yeah. And like, I, I do think that Jalen is outside his comfort zone as far as, like, he. Is he. Is he happy being, you know, the usage is what, second in the league or was at least recently. It. It's something that he's probably wanted, but it's still like when we. We've mentioned this a few times on the podcast now. The, the. The workload is more than he expected. The scoring is tougher than he thought. And I think the adjustment of. I think one thing that Jalen is missing is some of the just simple ball movement reads those passes that. And, and Keda has to be better at this and Garza has to be better at this. The passes last year that went to Luke Cornett that reverse the ball and force the defense to, to kind of shift the other way and then attack and then drive and then kick, I don't think Jalen is. Is catching all of those as many as he should sometimes because he's like, all right, I got to put my head down and score. And so I think like on a drive, he's just kind of like, let me lean my head down, let me put my hair paint on this guy's jersey and let me, you know, try to score. Sorry, that was a dark. That was right there. Come on. But he's not in a position to say, I'm just going to give this ball up because last year you give it up to Luke, you know exactly what Luke was going to do. He's going to reverse it. It was going to go to Derek Wett on the other side. Derek was going to drive it. It was either going to be a lob or it was going to be another kick to, you know, a skip pass or something. You kind of knew the flow of the offense, and this year you don't know the flow of the offense. And I think Jalen is in a place where he's probably thinking, if I don't score, then we're not going to score and we need points on the board. And that's not where he normally. I think I Think it's still more. More than he's been used to. For sure. He's not capable. It's more than he used to. And that's why I'm saying out of his comfort zone, 100%.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Karalis]

He has to, he has to figure out how to navigate that. How, how do you do all of that while moving? Like, you still have to be a ball mover. You still have to do all these other things. Like I've said many times this season, the ask of Jaylen is unfair.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Karalis]

A lot of times. Because he's the only guy on the team that's capable of doing all of these things. And so it's like, well, can, can you do this other thing too? I know you're scoring in 35 plus and you're actually doing in a very efficient way, but can you also move the ball? Can you also make these reads? Can you like all of that stuff?

[Tom Westerholm]

So can we, can we eliminate PTO from your thing? Like, you can't have no days off this year. Okay. Like, play all 82. That'd be great.

[John Karalis]

82 games. That's right. All of that stuff. And where this comes in to ultimately help him is like you said, when he, I don't think he gets slotted right back into what he was before Tatum's injury. I think when Tatum comes back, the Celtics have the luxury of like, hey, you know what? We're going to run a, a few more of these sets for Jalen, because Jalen has been this guy now for, for a whole season. He's kind of shown that he can do a lot of these different things. Let's. How about, how about spotting Jason up in the corner a couple of times? And now, now Jason doesn't have to do as much. Jalen doesn't have to do as much. And I think next season has the potential to be as equal a partnership. We always say it's an equal partnership, but we know it's been Jason first and then Jalen next season could be a lot more equal. Even though I think, you know, Jason has obviously been the perennial first team all NBA guy. I do think it gets a little more equitable next season.

[Tom Westerholm]

I hope so. I hope so. Because I gotta say, watching Jaylen Brown this year has been an actual delight. Like, it has been so much fun to watch him hoop this year. I really hope that it is equitable next year because, like, it should be great. It should be. This has been a lot of fun. I, I, this is, this is a fully realized Jalen Brown we're getting to see an actualized Jalen Brown that rules. I would like to see more of it.

[John Karalis]

Yeah, I'd like to see whatever Derrick White becomes because he's not he. Well, I admit I had very, very high hopes for Derek White and he's not currently not living up to a 20 through the season. Now there's 80 of the schedule left. No problem. Plenty of time for him to turn it around. And by the time we get to April, we could look back at this and be like, oh, yeah, remember the little blip at the beginning of the season. But he still needs to get past that. We'll talk about a little bit about Derek before we get to Anthony Simons when we come back. Today's show is brought to you by Game time. Download that game time app and you are going to get yourself a deal on these last minute tickets or any tickets, whenever you want to buy them. The NBA tickets are very easy to get on game time. This is like a life hack for getting tickets. You can grab seats at a Celtics game. You want to go to TD Garden, you want to go somewhere on the road, whatever it is, you can grab those tickets on game time because what you see is what you pay. There's no hidden fees. You you show, you open up the app. Whatever's there, whatever it shows you, that's going to be what you pay. I've used it a few times. You can see on the app the red, the blue, the green dots. You know where the good deals are. If you want to use the zone deals, you pick the section, they will pick the seats. That'll save you a lot of money. You can find some NBA tickets for under 25 bucks. Like I said, no hidden fees. You can see the seat view right from the seats. You know exactly what you're going to get into. I've used it plenty of times. I've been happy every single time. So take the guesswork out of buying NBA tickets with game time. Download the game time app, create an account, use the code locked on NBA for $20 off your first purchase. Terms apply. That's code locked on NBA. L O C K E D locked on N B A for $20 off. Swipe, tap Ticket go. Oh, hey. Welcome to gift wrapping. Whoa. So is Saldana.

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Due if you pay off earlier. Cancel Contact US Finance Agreement 256 gigabytes $830 required visit t mobile.com thank you for making Locked on Celtics your first listener day, making it the number one Celtics podcast on the planet and on the number one sports podcast network on the planet. Thank you so much. It's you, the everydayer who has been here every Monday through Friday, who's been here forever with me with the network that's making this possible. So I thank all of you who have done that. If you're new, please subscribe, join join the show and join us on this Celtics ride. It's a lot of fun, I believe. So Derek White needs to kind of snap out of it. He said it at practice. I need to play better in all phases. The, the numbers, we've talked about some of the numbers before, but the shot quality numbers, his first of all, the shot off the dribble jumpers have increased 20% according to Synergy. So he's taking 20% more off the dribble jumpers. His number of contested layups are have increased. He's his field goal percentage at the rim has dropped 18 at the rim. That's not good. He's getting a couple more shots. He's taking three more shots per game and you can say two of them. He's getting two more low quality shots and one more medium quality shot. Synergy has this, you know, based on the shot what your, what your percentages are where the defender is. They have like a score that gives it low, medium, high shot quality. And so the extra shots that he's getting are not any good. And even on the High quality shots. He's, he's shooting much, much lower than he is last season. So it's been a struggle for Derek shooting wise. Offensively, it's been a struggle. He's still doing all the other stuff. We've talked about this. The, the perspective has been great as far as defensive numbers and all of that. He's doing all the other stuff.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah, he's still a net positive when he's on the floor for the Celtics, according to cleaning the glass, like, yeah, they're 4.8 points, you know, like that. That's not bad. You know, and to your point, it's, it sure as heck isn't the offense because the offense gets five points worse when he's, it's, it's the defense where they're 10 points better with him on the floor.

[John Karalis]

If he can figure this out. Yeah, again, I expect him to figure this out somehow. He will. If he can figure this out, this changes dramatically. I think one of the takeaways that I'm getting from this early part of this season is, you know, if a few of these guys figure this out. It's a struggle this season, but I don't care. Yeah. Next season. The Jalen bit that we just went over, this Derek bit, if he can be better next season, we can fold in some Payton Pritchard. Think about what, you know, the added role that he's had. If these guys can come together, figure this out by the end of the season, kind of be their fully, you know, their full potential. Then you look at next season, you go, okay, now the Celtics got something because their roles scale back. But they could always, they're aware of this now. They've, they've adjusted. They've figured out that that part of the game has slowed down for them. When Jason comes back, it's all about just not putting as much pressure on him. If Derek, and if the Derek and Jalen lineups can go out there and handle three, four, five more minutes of the game, you don't have to play Jason as much. And that just makes things a lot simpler down the stretch and, and makes with a deep playoff runs. So I, I, I'm being hopeful, I'm being optimistic, I think. But I think these early struggles, again out of their comfort zone, like Derrick White, especially once he figures this out, is going to make him such a better player.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah, I mean, I, I think, you know, you talk about, like, if, if Derek can figure this out, if, if Tatum comes back this year, I mean, like, certainly he won't be Tatum yet. Right. Like, it'll be, it'll, you know, if he, if he comes back in, you know, March, then, you know, he's not going to be Jason, like all caps, Jason Tatum, exclamation point by the playoffs. But, like, he'll certainly be a net positive to have on the floor. I think I, I think by the time the playoffs roll around, like, I think he'll be like a useful, helpful player. Like, you know, at that point it's like, hey, I mean, they're certainly not going to be like a contender, but I mean, you know, Derrick White figuring out his new role with this version of Jaylen Brown, with a Peyton Pritchard who's comfortable in his role and with like, you know what, 70% of Jason Tatum, that's like, again, we've talked about this before, but like, I think the, the, the thing that you're hoping for for this year's team now that it's, now that it's clear that they're not going to be like a tanking team right now that it's clear that like, you know, barring disaster, they're not going to be in the lottery, like, or they're not going to be high in the lottery anyway. I think then in that case, then the, I, the, the best case scenario for this team is 45 to 46 wins and you're the team that absolutely nobody wants to face in the playoffs and you make somebody really uncomfortable and you get Tatum some of those, you know, those knock the rust off minutes that then benefit him next season. Like that, you know, that's what Derrick White, like a fully realized Derrick White this season offensively allows you to do. So. Yeah, I mean, I think it is ugly right now. I get it. Like, it's, you know, it's, yeah, it's tough to like every single game. Look at the 1 for 8, 1 for 7, 1 for 8, 1 for 7. Like every single game it's like, dang, dude, like, put one in, dog. It's just like three for nine looks so much better than one for eight. Like, yeah, put a couple in. But, you know, I mean, I think you're right. I think the long term benefits could really outweigh the negatives.

[John Karalis]

The, the thing that gets me about Derek is when he does have a good game, it's not carrying over much. And that's, that's the part that I'm like, huh? Okay, now again, my, my expectation was so much higher because I, I just.

[Tom Westerholm]

Thought we were talking All Star and we meant every Word of it.

[John Karalis]

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I, I want to be clear that if, if the shots are falling that he's up over 20 points per game.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Karalis]

And then the all star conversation is kind of there.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yes.

[John Karalis]

You think about if Derek had just, you know, starts hitting these shots or, I don't know, like he, he's not getting horrible shots. It's just that so much, they're just more contested and he's, he's just trying to put up some, some stuff that he's not used to hitting. I think he just needs to get used to the fading left with a hand, you know, up around his forearm and trying to, you know, compensate for that, you know, floater type of thing. You can start hitting that shot a little bit more. Those types of shots a little bit more. Then, then the, you know, it's the tough shots. Even on the low quality shots, he's. He was shooting better on low quality shots last year than this year. He's just shooting worse on everything. No matter the shot quality, no matter the spot, no matter nothing. He's just shooting worse. So if it's just shooting, I still think he's going to figure it out. At the same time, 17 Games is a long time to be going through struggles where the success is not carrying over. And that, that's like if, if I'm my, if my confidence is shaken at all, it's that we haven't seen an extended like. Okay, like we saw it with Peyton. Payton's put up some, some, you know, a decent stretch of numbers. Like, where's Derek's. Where's Derek's? Like three, four game stretch of. Okay, he's back. We got it, you know, so that, that's the only thing I'm waiting for.

[Tom Westerholm]

The weirdest thing is just also seeing that from, you know, how long Sam Houser's, you know, downturn was. Like, it's like, it's not just Derek. I think that's the thing that it's like, that's right. What's going on. Like, weird. But yeah, I think. But yeah, I'm, I'm there with you.

[John Karalis]

Your three best shooters. Arguably. Three best shooters. Yeah. Like just thinking it up and you.

[Tom Westerholm]

Know what, you're still over 500. Like, it's like not terrible.

[John Karalis]

It's you. You could easily say with a normal shooting start a few of these games go a different way and you don't lose. You. There's probably three games in there that you could win. Yeah. And you know, be what. What would that be? 12 and four. Is that right?

[Tom Westerholm]

No. Yeah.

[John Karalis]

No, they're nine and eight right now. Right. So there's, that's 17 games. So it would be 12, five. 12 and five.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah. So I mean, if you're 12, if this team was 12 and five. Yeah, they kind of like.

[John Karalis]

And they legitimately could be. They, they could be. And if they were 12 and 5, where would they be in the standings? They'd be third. They'd be the third seed right now. So right behind the, the Toronto Raptors, who we expected to be second, and then the, the Detroit Pistons, who we all expected to be first, of course.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah, yeah. No, everything's going according to plan.

[John Karalis]

Anthony Simons has figured something out and that's good. It's another good shooter who couldn't figure things out and now seems to be figuring things out. Talk about him. Is he changing the conversation? That is next. Today's show is brought to you by Drip Drop. Hydration is super important and you're hydrated, you've got focus, you've got energy, your mood is better, your skin looks better. That's why you have to use drip drop. It's Dr. Developed hydration that can keep you running at full power no matter what your day looks like. I have Drip Drop in all of my drinks here for the podcast. The hydration gets me through clear minded and I know it's not your average sports drink because it delivers three times the electrolytes and half the sugar of leading brands using a science backed formula trusted by medical professionals, firefighters and over 90% of top college and pro teams. So when you use it like I will have some at night, I like having some at night because you just fuels you for the, for the overnight. You wake up in the morning feeling really good. It tastes great. I like the sugar free watermelon. I like the sugar free stuff. Just one of my, one of my things trying to cut a little sugar out of my diet and they're right there with the hydration without the sugar, but their normal formula has half the sugar. So it's really good. Check it out. DripDrop.com Right now you can get 20% off your first order, right? That's a pretty Good deal. Drip drop.com use the code locked on MBA dripdrop.com, code locked on MBA. 20% off. Stock up now. Keep your body and mind performing at their best with Drip Drop.

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[John Karalis]

Thanks for making Lockdown Celtics your first listen every day. Second listen how about Locked on NBA game night? I will be doing game night tonight. I'll be joined by Danny Cunningham of Locked On Cavs. Three games in the league. So one, two, three segments. One, two, three games. Very easy. One game per segment. We'll be talking about them unlocked and be a game night. Any big, big stories that come out of that will be unlocked on NBA in the Afternoon show. So two podcasts on that same feed. Tom Anthony Simons has put a few decent games together. What do we have here? 23 points against the Magic, 23 against Brooklyn, 11 the first time around against Brooklyn. But he, you know, three or four. He didn't play much but did, did pretty good. So it seems like he's starting to put a little bit of a little bit of a run together. Sign of figuring out his shooting. You're the, I know you're the big Simons guy. You're the big Simons guy.

[Tom Westerholm]

Takes my claim on that hill.

[John Karalis]

Yes. Yeah, I, I still don't expect him to be around long term.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Karalis]

But it's, it's one of those questions now where I, I don't know what his value is going to be. I don't know what his new contract like his contract is up and they could use it in a trade for sure. But if they don't find a trade, you just wonder is he, he's not going to get 27 million on the open market. He's not going to get a raise? No, he's not going to get a raise.

[Tom Westerholm]

He's. Yeah.

[John Karalis]

No. So you wonder if. Well, if he's going to be cheaper. Well, well, maybe. Maybe he is a good guy to keep around, maybe as a sixth man or potential starter. Like. Like, I just. I just see him and Peyton Pritchard is kind of interchangeable. I don't know, is he playing his way into a role here where he's not playing well enough to earn big money, but he's playing well enough where if you can keep them, you have his bird rights, you have a way to keep them? You know, maybe there's something there.

[Tom Westerholm]

I think that's plausible, right? Like, I mean, I think one of the things that I found really encouraging about. I, I thought Joe Missoula had some, Some good comments about him the other day when he was talking about how. And Simon's talked about it too, where he was like, yeah, I used to be able to ease myself into games because I was a starter and, and I always just done that. And now I'm learning, like, oh, I know when I come in, I gotta start. I gotta. I gotta start scoring right away because I don't have the same number of minutes as I used to have. I thought that was like, you know, like, again, talking about getting outside your comfort zone for Simons, that's. That's a big part of it, right? It's like, yeah, no, dude, you need to contribute right away. And if you contribute right away, yeah, you'll get minutes, you'll get opportunities, you'll get tons of shots. But, like, when you come in, it's go time. You got to get it. And so, I mean, I think that's been him kind of seeming to figure that out has been valuable. And then I've also, I've really liked when he doesn't. You know, I think, I think it was. I think it was the. I think it was the Brooklyn game. You know, he. I can't remember which one. He went like 2 for 6 from 3 and he scored and he still had 23 points. And it's like, that's, that's who you should be able to be. Like, you're. You're so athletic. He's got that feathery touch on his floaters. You know, he can get where he needs to get to get shots off. And so I, I love seeing him do that because I think, yeah, like, obviously there's going to be games where he comes out and he's just an absolute flamethrower and he scores 25 points and you know, in a half and you're just like, whoa, this guy, you know, this guy's on fire. And he can heat up in a hurry, but like the ability to. Then if you're not heating up immediately, right. If you're not hitting two threes and everybody's just like, oh, you know, this is NBA Jam and the net's about to like, you know, burn off. Like, it's like you're still able to get buckets because you can. He's a bucket getter and he should be able to do that even when he's not making threes. So I felt like that's, that's been really encouraging. I think your point, I mean, look, I think your point is really well taken about he's not going to get that level of money again. I don't think he's going to get that close. Like, the well has been very poisoned against players like Jordan Clarkson, right?

[John Karalis]

Yeah.

[Tom Westerholm]

And he's better than that. I mean, I think he's clearly a better player than that, but like, I don't know contractually that he's gonna do a lot better that, that, that, that, that level of quality that he is above those guys, right. That you're, you know, your Clarkson's, your, you know, like, like any of those, like, score first, don't play any defense guys. I think he's better than those guys, but I don't know how much better he is from a contractual perspective. Like, he's certainly no, you know, like, like, like a Jalen Brunson type, right, where it's like, right. Tons of offense or a Trey Young type where there's tons of offense and no defense and people are still like, yeah, here's, here's a lot of money. Simons just isn't at that level. And like, if there's one thing we've seen over the last few years, like the championship level teams just don't really have any holes defensively. And so like, you know, if you get a guy on a bargain, like, he's a, he's a good player. He's, he's going to contribute. He's going to give you buckets. I, I, I think that there's something to that.

[John Karalis]

I wouldn't be surprised if the, the Celtics offer him kind of like a, a three year deal at the mid level. At mid level money.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yes.

[John Karalis]

And let's see, next year that's going to be 15.1 and change million dollars. So three years.

[Tom Westerholm]

It's crazy that that's the mid level.

[John Karalis]

I know, right? Such bonkers.

[Tom Westerholm]

Holy cow.

[John Karalis]

Yeah, I know. Hey, you know in like five years, six years, it's gonna be like a 20 million dollar contract. I mean that's crazy.

[Tom Westerholm]

Kevin Garnett people were, were just like rending their clothes over Kevin Garnett's contract.

[John Karalis]

And now, now that's what you like those I, I, listen, I wouldn't be opposed. Like Anthony Simons at three years, 45 million is not bad. Like that's, that's about right I think for him. And you put it right at that mid level number, knowing that you can always trade them and teams could use their mid level exception to accept him in a trade. And that's part of the deal. Right. When you're an Anthony Simons type, you're not getting a no trade clause. You gotta understand that this is going to be how it goes. And the only thing you can do is play yourself into a position where they wouldn't want to trade you. Yeah. And so $45 million is not nothing. It's a lot of money. And even after you pay everything and you get your 25 million or whatever it is that you know, if that's what you're clearing, still a lot of money. So I think there's a world where this trade deadline, he's a very prime candidate to be moved. Yeah. And like I think the salary matching, if John Morant or one of these other guys, he's malcontent somewhere gets moved and there are big salaries. Simon's salary is a number that you can combine like in a multi team trade to make numbers work somehow.

[Tom Westerholm]

So bring in John Morant. Is exactly what you're saying, right? That the Celtics.

[John Karalis]

Exactly what I'm saying, what I'm actually saying, what I've said before on the podcast is I think the Celtics could do that and get a center.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Karalis]

In, you know, in return. But if they can't and they have to go a different way to get their center. They do have the Porzingis traded player exception. They, they, they do have ways to kind of spend money. They'll still be a first apron team, they won't be a second apron team. But they will have methods to kind of like Tillman's off the books, Boucher's off the books. You know, you, you have cheap, you have, you know, Minot, Keda, Walsh are all on team options for next season. Sherman's on a team option for next season. Gonzalez is still on his rookie contract. Pritchard's on a $7.7 million deal. You know, these are all cheap deals. You can, you can get Simons on a mid level deal and find someone to acquire in that. Not all of the 22 million for Poisingus, but you can use it to acquire somebody. So you have a method there. It's not the worst thing in the world. I think they have options for building a team and keeping Simons, considering that he's not going to be worth a raise. Yeah, you know, that's, that's one thing where, that's, that's where the, the, the new system actually helps the Celtics. Right, right. Kill them this year. Force them to move some, some players that they wanted to keep, I'm sure. But these, these, these middle of the road guys like Simons are end up getting kind of like, I'm gonna say screwed. Getting $15 million a year.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Karalis]

Yeah. Right. I hope, I hope I get screwed out of.

[Tom Westerholm]

Yeah.

[John Karalis]

And get 15. Please. Somebody really, really put one over on me and give me a year.

[Tom Westerholm]

Swindle me, swindle me into 15 million a year.

[John Karalis]

Darn. Got taken and I'm only getting $15 million. I can't believe. Could work out. It could work out for them. So. Yeah, I, I don't. I like that idea. We'll see where it goes. Yeah. All right, Tom, we did it. And we did it a lot. We did like 11 fewer minutes.

[Tom Westerholm]

I know, I know. We better, we better. I appreciate you. We better get out of here.

[John Karalis]

Oh no, wait. I can't think. I just. Four more topics just popped into my head. All right, see you, Tom. Appreciate you. I do appreciate. You know, Tom is the best and I appreciate you. You're the best for listening, for watching, however you're consuming this podcast. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Really do love you for doing that. I will be here all, all week, even Thanksgiving. So there will be a show. Well, obviously Wednesday night is the, the game. So your Thursday you'll have a post game, post Pistons podcast which hopefully is not too, too bad. You know. No, Keda didn't even mention that. No. No Namishkada. So worst case scenario for Boston. But I will have a post game podcast there on Thursday. I will, you know, shake off my turkey hangover and I will do a podcast for you for Friday so you have something to listen to while you do your Black Friday shopping. And then there's a game this weekend, Saturday night in Minnesota. I will do a post game podcast for you then. So please subscribe. Watch the show on YouTube, get into the comments section, share your thoughts there and then share the podcast. Spread the word. Tell everybody they should be listening to and watching the Lockdown Celtics podcast here on the Lockdown Podcast Network. It's your team every day.

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[John Karalis]

The who's down in who Newville were making their list, but some didn't know Walmart has the best brands for their gifts. What about toys?

[Tom Westerholm]

Do they have brands kids have been wanting all year?

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[John Karalis]

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[Tom Westerholm]

Do you mean they have all the brands I adore?

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