Locked On Celtics Podcast Summary

Episode Title: Was Jaylen Brown Actually BENCHED? | Joe Mazzulla’s LINEUP Roulette
Host: John Karalis (with guest Tom Westerholm)
Date: November 20, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of the Locked On Celtics podcast, hosted by John Karalis with guest Tom Westerholm, dives deep into two major Celtics topics:

1. Whether Jaylen Brown was actually benched in the recent win over the Brooklyn Nets, and whether his performance could be seen as good or bad.
2. Joe Mazzulla’s ongoing experimentation with lineup combinations, including the unexpected unit that proved pivotal in the Brooklyn game.

The hosts employ a mix of humor, basketball analysis, and insider observations to provide both context and insight for Celtics fans looking to understand the team's current dynamics.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Was Jaylen Brown Benched Against Brooklyn?

• John and Tom open the show (04:15–04:45) by debating whether Jaylen Brown was truly benched:

  • Tom Westerholm: “I have no idea… I Didn’t think so. I, I, Nah, I don't think so.” (04:27)
  • Both agree the narrative of a "benching" doesn't really fit what happened in the game.

• Deep dive on Jaylen's performance (05:01–08:26):

  • Karalis: “Was he good or bad? The answer is yes.” (06:15)
  • Jaylen scored 29 points with 4 rebounds and 4 assists, but had 8 turnovers and admitted postgame that he was tired and not sharp for stretches.
  • Karalis highlights how expectations for Brown have evolved: “If you’re putting up 29, 4 and 4 and we can’t figure out if you had a good game or not, then you’re a pretty damn good basketball player.” (06:21)

• Discussion on how much harder offense is for Jaylen this season (08:26–10:54):

  • Jaylen Brown (audio clip): “Scoring is a lot more effort than it was in previous... Every basket is, yeah, it’s energy, and I’m up for it, but it’s just—it's more energy than…” (08:27)
  • Brown has to expend much more energy to score as the roster's focal point; Brooklyn made it even tougher by throwing multiple big bodies at him.

• Tom likens Jaylen’s physical burden to “pushing the gas up a hill” (10:54–12:42), with Karalis noting, “He was just throwing himself into bodies… I’ve never seen him just do that and have that be the plan.” (12:42)

• On free throws: “If anything, the most impressive stat…he did that, got super, super tired, and was 8 of 10 from the free throw line, like, he shot 80%. That he did that as tired as he looked was impressive.” (13:34)

2. Parsing the “Benching” Narrative

• Post-game, Jaylen told reporters: “Yeah, that's just Joe holding me accountable,” after playing only 10 first-half minutes.

• Karalis reviews the in-game substitution pattern (17:45–19:26):

  • Jaylen was subbed out at a normal time, missed some action while the team made a strong run, then re-entered. Nothing unusual or punitive.
  • The second half? Jaylen played nearly the entire third and most of the fourth quarters.

  Westerholm: “That just sounds natural, right?... Coaches are trying this out—different ways to keep a guy's minutes in check but make sure that he’s out there as much as you can in the second half.” (19:38)

• Both hosts agree this was not a “benching,” but a simple case of riding a hot lineup and managing minutes for a player with a huge workload. (19:26–21:38)

  Memorable quote:

  • Karalis, paraphrasing Jalen’s mindset: “It screams…‘And I took that personally’ kind of moment. … In his own head, [he needs] it to be: ‘Joe was holding me accountable.’” (21:38)
  • Westerholm: “I think it might just be a lot more simple than that…Joe was just doing some lineup stuff, and that's how this broke down.” (20:48)

3. The Realities of Jaylen's Increased Responsibility

• Usage Rate: Karalis notes, “He’s near the top of the NBA in usage rate. You have to kind of protect him a little bit” (23:47–24:07)
• Jaylen’s offensive burden and physical wear-and-tear make regular rotation adjustments necessary.

4. Joe Mazzulla’s “Lineup Roulette”

• Discussion shifts to the most unexpected lineup (28:02–30:04):

  • The Celtics went on a decisive run with “Sam Hauser, Namish Keda, Baylor Scheireman, Jaylen Brown and Derrick White”—a group with zero previous in-game experience together.

  Karalis: “I can’t imagine that that would even be a combination in practice… This may be the first five-on-five action that group has ever gotten.” (29:02)

  • Westerholm: likens the random lineup to a child mixing weird slushie flavors: “Sometimes you create these horrific flavors…one was pumpkin spice for some reason…” (29:19)
  • The point: Mazzulla is fearlessly experimenting in search of combinations that produce energy and results, not being beholden to traditional starter/bench groupings.

• The “lineup dance” and fight for the starting spot (30:59–34:42):

  • Sam Hauser, Jordan Walsh, Josh Minot, and others all rotate through starts or big-minute opportunities.
  • Karalis uses the “around the world” analogy: “If you make the shot, you move to the next spot. If you miss, you go back…can anybody become a regular starter?” (31:00)

  Westerholm: “Joe does seem to really want these guys to have a level of desperation…Fight for your spot, because it is not promised to you.” (32:39)

• Mazzulla’s approach works because of his authenticity and buy-in from players (34:42–36:27):

  • “Joe truly does care about his players…In return...100% effort and production. And the understanding that we are here for one common goal: to win.” (34:42)
  • “I am going to go with the guy who can do something most often, most consistently, and I don't care who it is. I'm not playing favorites.” (36:28)

5. What It All Means for the Celtics

• Other than the Big Three (Jaylen, Tatum, White), every rotation player is subject to this ongoing lineup competition.
• Consistency in contributing—especially when shots aren't falling—will be the key to earning and keeping a place in crucial moments.
• The rotation fluidity is a reflection of both the roster’s strengths and ongoing uncertainties due to injuries, role changes, and evolving matchups.

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Jaylen Brown’s mixed performance:
  • Karalis: “Was he good or bad? The answer is yes.” (06:15)
• Jaylen Brown on energy required this year:
  • “Scoring is a lot...a lot more effort than it was in the previous...Every basket is...it's energy, and I'm up for it, but it's just…it's more energy than…” (Jaylen Brown, 08:27)
• Karalis on the evolution of expectations:
  • “If you’re putting up 29, 4 and 4 and we can’t figure out if you had a good game or not, then you’re a pretty damn good basketball player.” (06:21)
• Karalis, on the rotation logic:
  • “This does not seem like a benching to me. This seems like we rolled with a different lineup that was working, we’re just going to let Jaylen get a little extra rest...None of this sounds like a benching to me.” (18:39)
• Westerholm, on player competition:
  • “You gotta fight for your spot because it is not promised to you...That could be literally anybody.” (32:39)

Important Timestamps

• 00:02–02:10 – Ads, promos, intros (skip)
• 04:15–06:21 – Was Jaylen benched? Was his performance good or bad?
• 08:26–10:54 – Jaylen’s workload and "I’m up for it, but it’s a lot" quote
• 12:13–14:12 – Physical toll, driving into the paint, free throws
• 17:45–19:26 – Deep-dive into Jaylen’s rotation minutes vs. Brooklyn
• 21:38–23:47 – Jaylen’s leadership persona, accountability
• 28:02–30:04 – The surprise lineup that broke the game open
• 30:59–34:42 – Joe’s lineup experimentation, player competition for minutes
• 34:42–36:28 – Mazzulla’s coaching style: caring but demanding
• 38:07–39:05 – “Around the world” analogy for lineup roulette

Episode Takeaways

• Jaylen Brown was not benched in the classic sense; his reduced first-half minutes were simply due to rotation management and letting a hot lineup roll.
• His performance against Brooklyn was a classic case of modern NBA nuance: statistically great, with flaws (turnovers, fatigue) that show the complexity of his role.
• Joe Mazzulla’s coaching style is fearless and sometimes unconventional, keeping everyone not named Tatum, Brown, or White on their toes for minutes—a point both praised and closely analyzed.
• The Celtics’ bench and supporting cast are in constant competition, and consistency, hustle, and defensive contributions are just as key as shooting for securing a regular role.

For Those Who Missed the Episode

If you didn’t catch this episode, you missed:

• A thoughtful, candid breakdown of what “benching” really means for a star player on a contender.
• Play-by-play rotation analysis showing how coaching decisions are more about matchups and game flow than punitive measures.
• Amusing and deep insight into Joe Mazzulla’s ongoing search for the right supporting lineups—and how it creates a “survival of the fittest” mentality among role players.
• The refreshing honesty and wit of John Karalis and Tom Westerholm, who blend basketball nerdiness with relatable analogies (like slushies and “around the world”) and a behind-the-scenes lens on Celtics culture.

Listen for: in-depth Celtics X’s and O’s, candid discussion, memorable lines, and a true sense of locker-room dynamics.