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Locked On Cowboys - Daily Podcast On The Dallas Cowboys
IMPACT: Dallas Cowboys NEED Caleb Downs & Malachi Lawrence to DELIVER as Rookies!
00:27:08
The Dallas Cowboys place big expectations on rookies Caleb Downs and Malachi Lawrence—can they deliver immediate impact in their rookie seasons? Marcus Mosher and Landon McCool break down what to expect from Downs as a potential game-changing safety and Lawrence’s fit in a crowded pass-rush rotation.
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- [00:02]
Marcus Moser
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- [00:37]
Ross Jackson
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- [01:06]
Landon McCool
Notes.
- [01:08]
Marcus Moser
The Cowboys need Caleb Downs and Malachi Lawrence to have huge rookie seasons. We'll tell you if that's possible next. You are Locked On Cowboys, your daily Dallas Cowboys podcast, part of the Locked On Podcast Network. Your team every day. Welcome back. I am your host, Marcus Moser. He is Landon McCool, and on today's show, we are answering your Twitter questions, including what will Hunter Lipke's role be in 2026? Could Dee Winters be even better in Dallas? But Landon, I want to start with this question from Baz, who wants to know how much of an impact. Impact, excuse me, do Caleb Downs and Malachi Lawrence have in year one? And I've been thinking about this a lot because you and I talked about throughout the entire draft process, they needed to come out of the draft with at least two starters on defense. Now we know Caleb Downs is going to be a starter. We're not quite sure what Malachi Lawrence's role is going to look like. We know he's going to play a lot, but I want to start with Downs. How much can we expect from him as a rookie? I know he's been one of the highest drafted safeties in a long time, but is it too much to think you're going to get like above average starting safety play? Could you get Pro bowl safety play? What do you think?
- [02:33]
Landon McCool
Oh, yeah. I mean, look, I think. I think it's. It's not unrealistic to think he's a top six safety this year. Like, I mean, I, I think that that's, I mean, you know, that that's how highly you think about this guy. Like, yeah, I. So I think Pro Bowl? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, his role is going to be a little bit unique, right, because he's. He's not going to be playing kind of traditional safety. And I guess, you know, there's a lot of people, a lot of roles in this league and a lot of defenses that, that kind of fit that mold a little bit. But I do think that as far as his impact versus other players that play his position, Yeah, I think he's going to have an immediate impact and some of it is going to be kind of a little bit more difficult to measure because it's like the, you know, the communicator aspect of it and how he's going to be a leader and kind of helping disseminate the defense, and that's going to have a big impact, you hope as well. But I also think on the field, just, you know, he. He comes in with a. A football IQ that has him ready to play in the NFL. And, and I, I don't. I mean, he's one of the rare players who I really do believe, like, is going to hit the ground running in the NFL and kind of just pick up where he left off from college just because he's so smart and he understands the. All the angles and a lot of these rookies don't. Yeah.
- [03:57]
Marcus Moser
What's going to be tough with him is I don't know if it's going to be like, big turnover production. Like, if you're expecting him to be a guy that's getting seven or eight turnovers a year, like, that's just unrealistic. Like, he might fluke into one of those years, but he's going to be more of like, don't give up big plays and coverage, cover your slot receivers, you know, play good zone defense against tight ends, help in the run game. And I, I hate to ever compare anybody to this player, but his role is going to be a lot like what Darren Woodson's was in the mid-90s, right. Like, just you're going to do a little bit of everything. You're not going to be in the position that I don't know what John lynch is at, where you're going to get more takeaways, and that's why you're going to get in the hall of Fame instead of a player that was way better. Can you tell that I'm a little bitter about Darren Woodson not getting in the hall of Fame, but Darren Woodson was an awesome, awesome football player who didn't always get the counting stats that the non Ball watchers seem to care about. Right. And that's okay. I think for the Cowboys. What you want Caleb Downs to be is that guy that can do everything and do everything at a high level. That's going to be the kind of impact we are hoping to see from him in year one.
- [05:09]
Landon McCool
Kind of like, you know, he's a, he's the backstop except he's a high level backstop where he's just like he's going to do a little bit of everything and he's not. And he's going to, you know, in a game, in a world where you see short passing and, and the run game kind of making its, its way back in as teams are operate underneath these kind of shell coverages, especially the ones that the Cowboys are going to be playing a lot of, you need guys who are quick to the football and are reliable tacklers and that's this guy to a tee. Like he's just going to vacuum up a ton of tackles. He's going to eliminate the screen game in a lot of ways because he's going to be able to see it before it happens. And then he just kind of teleports and he fights through blocks really well. He's going to be helpful in run defense in a. When you're in the nickel, when teams are trying to take advantage of the box count. He's just going to be a plus player in that, that direction. Yeah. As far as interceptions, I mean I don't expect him to be like above and beyond another starting defensive back who's on the field a lot. But I think as far as like keeping you know like a plays that were normally 6 or 7 yard dump dump off passes in the, in the past now are 2 yard dumb off crisis because he's making the tackle as soon as he arrives. That's the kind of impact is the average depth of tackle kind of stat counting stats, the, you know, the not giving up the big play and making it for a normal 4 yard instead of a 25 yard play, like because you have a solid tackler who could get to where you need to go. That's the kind of impact that he's going to have over and over and over again. And then on top of that like making sure that there's alignment in the secondary so there's not a bus, right?
- [06:48]
Marcus Moser
Yes, that's the big part of it. Yeah. Now what about Malachi Lawrence? Because that, this is the one that I've been struggling with because I could see a world in which Malachi Lawrence does not have a big impact this year because he's the, you know, third or fourth edge rusher on this team. Right. He's behind Rashawn Gary, he's behind Donovan as a Roku. I don't even know if he's as polished as a pass rusher as what like James Houston is. And I still think he's got a ways to go as a pure pass rusher. And we know that there's some run defense struggles. That doesn't mean he's a bad pick. You and I both really like this pick at 23. It's just generally these pass rushers that are drafted like in the back half of round one and really the guys that come from smaller or lesser competition, they do take a little bit. I expect him to have some flash plays here there, but I don't know, he's a guy that you can rely on to be like a week in and week out, consistent pass rusher.
- [07:51]
Landon McCool
Yeah, I mean, I think he's going to be a big part of the pass rush. I don't know if I'm going to expect big production from him right away. Right. Like, I think that's the, that's how I would look at it. I think he'll be part of a rotation of guys that comes in on passing downs and I think because he's so explosive off the ball and, and he's got such great effort, like he's really great on, in third down, you know, pass situation. So I do think that that's an area where his game is going to translate the quickest or at least I feel like the cleanest, like, oh, I can get him on the field and if he's just a bursty pass rusher, you know, from the nine technique that knows how to use his hands a little bit that I can, I can work with that. And I think he will have an impact. I think the degree to which his impact is going to be, you know, felt is, is that's what's to be determined. I do think he'll be able to come in, he'll provide you something in the pass rush. Again, maybe not sack, maybe not six to eight sacks. I mean that's, that would be a really solid rookie year for a pass rusher. But if he came in and gave you three to four sacks and then
- [09:02]
Marcus Moser
basically, yeah, the Donovan Ezraku performance from last season, right. Like, hey, be one of these guys that can have four or five pressures in any single game, make a couple plays in the run game, get a sack here or there and at least give us some Hope that by 2027 you can be one of those starting edge rushers.
- [09:23]
Landon McCool
Yeah, I, I think he'll have a, an impact as a part of a pass rush rotation this year, but I don't think that he's going to be, you know, a starter or certainly not a plus starter, you know, in year one unless he really comes out and wows us in training camp.
- [09:39]
Marcus Moser
Well, and that's why I think you and I are both open to the idea of them adding one more veteran pass rusher. Now, that guy is probably not going to be a 10 sack player either, but just somebody that you feel better about on third and seven being able to create some consistent pressure so you're not having to rely on Malachi Lawrence too much. This is where the Cowboys have gotten trouble in trouble in the past. They draft these guys early, they put them on the field expecting them to be high quality pass rushers and it just really doesn't work like that unless you're Micah Parsons. Like DeMarcus Lawrence struggled as a rookie until he got to the playoffs, Donovan as a rock who was up and down. Taco Charlton obviously had his struggles. I don't want them to feel like they, they're relying on Malachi Lords to be the engine of the pass rush because it just. That part of it won't happen.
- [10:29]
Landon McCool
No. And I feel like they've insulated themselves enough at this point where they, they, they aren't, you know, like they're not like just if they hadn't gone out and gotten Rashawn Gary, I feel like I would have been really worried. But I think where he is now with Ezraku, with Gary, I, I think he's part, he's going to be part of a group. If you had. I do, like I said, I do think having one more would be, would make it a solid grouping. Right. A solid defensive in room A. Joey
- [10:58]
Marcus Moser
Bosa, like, yeah, Bosa. Playing 18 snaps a game would make me feel so much better about this entire defense, to be honest with you.
- [11:06]
Landon McCool
One more guy to come in who can kind of give you some high leverage snaps, you know, in Keith's moments I think would just help with the rotation overall and I think they're building it slowly. They didn't get like a top end huge piece, but if you can get a nice collection of solid pass rushes, I mean that's what we saw the Eagles win a Super bowl with. Right. Like, so I, I think. And again, you've got Quinn Williams inside that Use that as the kind of engine and then sim pressure stuff that's enough to get you going, to get you what you need to kind of rush the passer.
- [11:37]
Marcus Moser
All right, let's talk about D. Winters, a starter that the Cowboys did acquire during the 2026 NFL Draft. Could he be even better in Dallas? We'll get to that next. This episode is brought to you by Square, the system that helps fix one of the biggest headaches in running a business. Starting a business is exciting, but actually running it, that's where things can get complicated fast. Payments, inventory, staff, scheduling, online orders. It's a lot to manage, but that's why Square brings everything into one connected system. Square helps you take payments, you track sales, manage inventory, and keep your business running smoothly without juggling a bunch of disconnected tools. And one of the things that I've noticed, there's a local coffee spot right down the road for me that uses Square and it just makes the entire checkout process so easy and so convenient. If you're starting a business or running one that deserves better tools, Square helps you sell, manage and grow without slowing down. And. And right now you can get up to $200 off square hardware at square.com go lot NFL that's square.com go lot NFL. Run your business smarter with Square and get started today. This episode is brought to you by. Game Time. We can stream anything, order food in minutes, do everything from our phones, and somehow buying tickets to live events and still feels way harder than it should be. Long lines, confusing checkouts, prices jumping at the last second. It shouldn't be this complicated, but that's why there's game time. It gives the fans the advantage. It makes getting tickets fast and simple. I was just looking at tickets for a baseball game that our family's going to go to here in July and I was shocked at some of the prices. First of all that I got, but also my favorite part of the app is that you can do the seats view so you know exactly what your seats are going to look like in the app before you buy. In the zone deals where you pick a section and this is what we did and you can save even more. Two taps and you have great seats locked in. It's quick, it's easy, and it actually makes you want to go to more events. So take the guesswork out of buying tickets to every type of event. With Game Time, download the Game Time app, create an account and use promo code locked on for $20 off you can your first purchase terms apply again, Create an account Redeem promo code lockedon for $20 off and download the Gametime app today. Welcome back to the Loton Cowboys podcast. We like to thank you for making us your first listen every single day. Don't forget to check out the everyday club where you can get ad free access to the Lock on Cowboys podcast. Just go to Loton Cowboys to join the club. All right, Landon, our next question comes from at Jones's babysitter. He wants to know there's been a lot of discussion about D. Winters, that he might not be a great solution as an inside linebacker. Is there any chance that he could actually be better this year in Dallas given how well their defensive linemen and their edges help stop the run?
- [14:57]
Landon McCool
Yeah, I mean, look, I, I think he, he did what he did last year because of the opportunity that was provided for him because of injury. Right. But at the same time, you know, he was actually affected by injury quite a bit. Not only the fact that he was injured as the season went on, from what I understand, but he was playing through it. But on top of that, all the injuries that were around him not only were in the linebacker room, but we're all up and down the defensive offensive line. Again, this is for everyone who remembers. This is San Francisco last year. They dealt with absolutely a norm. Abnormal number of injuries. So I, I do think. What'd you say?
- [15:38]
Marcus Moser
Yeah, I mean, it was. They were decimated. At one point, I think they had nine of their top 11 defensive linemen were out.
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Landon McCool
Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, it was ridiculous. So the fact that he was able to perform as he did while injured and dealing with all the injuries around, it was. Was quite impressive. And I think that that's some of the accounting that the, the scouting staff did when they, when they decided to bring him over. I, I think that, you know, in this scheme, you're gonna have, you know, especially on in base downs, you're gonna have a little bit of bigger bodies in front of you. Hopefully, you know, it's gonna, it's not a two gap, but it's a gap and a half scheme so that you're gonna have guys occupying blockers a little bit, or at least, you know, keeping them off them off you for a ticket. And, and I think it's going to give a guy like D winners who, who seems more like a kind of a running hit linebacker the opportunity to kind of be free and run to the football a lot like overshone. So I think there's going to be times when they're gonna Want to mix and match these guys with Barham a little bit. But I also could see a world where oh obviously it's overshown and winners kind of occupying that off ball. And you got to remember too like the Mike linebacker, the middle linebackers, the, I mean we should probably call them inside linebackers in this scheme. It's more of a, a running, a running hit situation. I mean there definitely is kind of a, used to be, what do they call them? A, a Jack and Joe like one
- [17:04]
Marcus Moser
that's, I don't call them a buck linebacker as well.
- [17:07]
Landon McCool
Yeah, Bucks one. Yeah. So I, I think that, I think they'll probably you know, sub borrow them in at the place play that, that kind of buck linebacker. And Leo Fowl I think is another guy who could potentially be one of those kind of more downhill hammer type guys. But I do anticipate them putting over shown in winners next to each other a lot of times and letting them run and go and get the football and I think you know, with just better health you hope that someone like winners maybe takes another step from what we saw at San Francisco last year.
- [17:37]
Marcus Moser
Do you think there's any chance they brought winners in with the idea that we just can't trust over shown to stay healthy? And between overshown and winners we'll at least have one solid weak side linebacker or a guy that, well let's not even call him a weak side linebacker. Let's call it a run and chase linebacker. Between the two we can kind of mix and match and figure out at least a way to fill one of those spots.
- [18:01]
Landon McCool
Yeah, I mean certainly I, I and I do think that there is a world where if Barham really works out a lot that, that you just, you just see them kind of rotate winners and over shown a little bit and then on early downs it's in early down situations and then when it comes to, to throw the football, I mean I would imagine those are the two linebackers that you're probably going to have in more nickel and, and you know, and then one of them would be a dime linebacker. Right. So I also think that you know again like you play these guys so much and, and they, they, they, they take so many hits and everything that having multiple quality running hit linebackers like this even if you're not playing them at the same time is just a good idea. Right. Just because again like you said, especially
- [18:48]
Marcus Moser
with overshones injury history and that's the unfortunate part, I just really wonder if they feel like, you know, we love overshone we can't trust them. Like what three of the. Well, I guess it did two of the three seasons he's ended up on the injured reserve list. This is his first healthy season really ever off season. Really ever.
- [19:07]
Landon McCool
Yeah.
- [19:09]
Marcus Moser
So I, I wonder if they felt like hey, winners is going to cost us a fifth round pick. He's on a cheap deal. Let's at least give over shown some competition. And I still wonder if they're looking for that middle linebacker that can be the guy that can come downhill, take on guards, take on fullbacks and be kind of more of the plugger. And those guys are out there. I mean Bobby Wagner is the big name but there's other guys out there like that. Whether it's a Landon Roberts or Jermaine Pratt, it's not super hard to find that guy. What is hard to find are the guys that can run all over, make tackles and make plays and coverage.
- [19:42]
Landon McCool
The guys we got right winners and over shown like those, those guys if they were on the market right now would, would catch a lot. They'd be gone, right?
- [19:48]
Marcus Moser
They'd be gone.
- [19:49]
Landon McCool
Right, exactly. So yeah, and I agree, like I think you can go and get your, your more downhill guy and honestly it's, it's a lot like running back. Right. Where since you can get these guys wherever you don't need to go get them right now. Right. Like right now you want to see Barham take all those snaps, right?
- [20:07]
Marcus Moser
Well, can I give you another linebacker too?
- [20:09]
Landon McCool
Yeah, please, Please.
- [20:10]
Marcus Moser
Shamar James should be getting a lot of those snaps as well. He's only 21 years old. I know last year was up and down a little bit, but he should be the guy that's getting every single rep here in May. Bobby Wagner and a Landon Roberts don't
- [20:23]
Landon McCool
need those reps. Yeah, I mean that's for sure. I mean I, I, I also wonder how much he could have, he could factor in here a little bit. I mean I think he's probably more of a, of a running hit guide
- [20:36]
Marcus Moser
as well, which makes it. Yeah. Interesting. I agree with you.
- [20:39]
Landon McCool
Yeah, but, but, but I do but I mean, you know, can he with a little bit bigger wingspan, like can he, can he be like someone who's a little bit of goes back and forth. I mean you don't, you know, that's the thing is that like you also can just not use that, that, that type as much. But I do think that, that you know, as it stands right now, the, the, the body types that you have, that, that, that really kind of fit that role would be more like Leo Fau and Bahram and then, and then Shemar James would be kind of that third linebacker which, you know, again, like, it's not terrible that you've got multiple of these guys and we still don't really know how much we, how well we feel about Shemar James playing a full time role on defense. Anyways, I think he's shown you a lot of good stuff, but I also think he got overexposed at times. So just giving an opportunity for him to kind of be the third linebacker in that group and just coming, coming in and playing, you know, a handful of defensive stats, they may be good for his development at this point.
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Marcus Moser
And honestly, he might be the guy taking over in 2027 when D winners into Marvin Overshone hit free agency. If that's the plan to have him kind of be the guy in waiting, I would not be surprised. All right, let's talk about Landon's favorite player on the entire roster, Hunter Lipke. Who? I'm not sure it's going to be on the roster. We'll get to that next. This episode is brought to you by Rocket Money. If you've ever opened your bank account and wondered, where did all my money go? You're not alone. Keeping track of subscriptions, spending and bills can get overwhelming fast.
- [22:17]
Landon McCool
And.
- [22:18]
Marcus Moser
And that's where Rocket Money comes in, helping you take control of your finances all in one place. Rocket Money tracks all of your subscriptions in one spot and can help you cancel the ones you don't need with just a few taps and you can set budgets, get alerts, and stay on top of upcoming bills. It just makes everything feel more organized and it gives you a clear picture of your finances day to day. Right? Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so that you can grow your savings. Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. Join@RocketMoney.com LockOn that's RocketMoney.com LockedOn welcome back to the Lock on Cowboys podcast. We've got one final question here. Somebody wants to know Landon. And this is this. I know this is going to be very upsetting to you, so we're going to do it a delicate way.
- [23:18]
Landon McCool
Thank you.
- [23:19]
Marcus Moser
Thank you. This comes from Ahmed. He wants to know, Landon, please do not take offense to this, but is Hunter Lipke at this point still a lock to make the roster? What justifies him being one of the higher paid fullbacks in the NFL?
- [23:33]
Landon McCool
You would give me that, that username real quick. I'm just going to write it down.
- [23:40]
Marcus Moser
That's actually what it is.
- [23:41]
Landon McCool
No worries. Huh? Well, thank you, Mr. Kuniton. It's stabbing me in the back. Look, I, I, I think, you know, he, he does a lot of different things on this team. You know, is he, is he being paid at an appropriate rate? I, I'm, I'm not here to pocket watch.
- [24:00]
Marcus Moser
He's not getting paid, you know.
- [24:01]
Landon McCool
Yeah, like, pretty cheap. It's, it's pretty cheap. I also think that you're going to use the role and I understand that. And we thought we were talking before the show and I think I mentioned that, that Schottenheimer, you know, also mentioned that he wanted to use him in more packages. And you call that an every year talking point, which I, which really hurt my feelings.
- [24:27]
Marcus Moser
But look, before, without even looking, how many snaps do you think Hunter Lippke played last year in offense?
- [24:36]
Landon McCool
I would say 45.
- [24:40]
Marcus Moser
He's more nice. 200. 200 snaps.
- [24:42]
Landon McCool
Oh, snaps. Okay. I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about such as.
- [24:45]
Marcus Moser
No, no snaps. 250 snaps.
- [24:47]
Landon McCool
Okay.
- [24:48]
Marcus Moser
What, what's tough about that is like guys like Luke Schoonmaker play 392, Brevin Span Ford played 300 and they need somebody that can do those roles. And it helps having a guy that can handle the ball if needed, who also can be a pass blocker if needed. But you do wonder, are you getting the most bang for your buck with that roster spot?
- [25:10]
Landon McCool
Yeah, but I mean, I, I, I, I, that's a play calling issue and that's why I actually believe Schottenheimer because I think they did pay him and, and I don't think it's because, like, he hasn't performed well. Right. Like, I don't, I don't think it's because he hasn't like, you know, I mean, he's like, he hasn't done well. I think it's, I think he's done fine with his opportunities. I think they just haven't used him in that way. I think he's mostly just been getting the value in special teams and other stuff. But I agree, like, let's use him more. But listen, I also know that it's fullbacks a harder position to do that with sometimes. So I don't know, I think, you know, I think they, the Cowboys also got to the end of the year and realized that they had given Javante Williams the ball too much and had kind of worn down. I think Part of that could have been, hey, you know, on those short yardage situations or maybe just giving him a series where he's the running back. I, I think he can do stuff like that and he can, you know, provide kind of a similar type of player where he could be a physical presence in the run game if you want to give him the football and keep some carries off. Javante Williams and I also think he could be a dump off target. I think he showed you that, that he was good at that. He took a couple screens and he was able to move the ball like he's tough to take down. So I, I, I do think that he's earned more opportunities. He's just hasn't been given more opportunity.
- [26:38]
Marcus Moser
And it's really hard to justify giving him more opportunities when you're trying to find ways to get Ryan Flournoy like five targets a game. Right now, the easiest way to do it is just to give him some more carries. But I also understand why they don't. Javante Williams was really good last year. Javante Williams is the better pass blocker and you feel like Lipke, you're going to probably use it more in short yardage, but I would actually like to see them use Lipke more on early downs. I think that's when he's been more successful as a runner. We'll see if the Cowboys decide to give him more work. One of the things that we're not mentioning, he is a key special teamer. He plays a lot of different roles and that's why he's getting paid what he's getting paid. It's not for his blocking ability as a fullback. It's really for all the different jobs he can do on special teams on
- [27:26]
Landon McCool
game day, specifically because they have lots of guys who can do a lot of different things. But he can. He's a rosterable player who can play tight end, he can play fullback, he can play running back. He can do what you need, fill in if there's injury. So, yeah, lots of value there.
- [27:39]
Marcus Moser
All right, that is it for today's show. We'd like to thank you for making Lock on Cowboys your first listen every single day. Make sure you subscribe and follow the podcast so you get all of the latest episodes. And and if you never miss an episode, the everyday club is built for you. Get locked on Cowboys ad free members only, discord access and so much more. And for those of you on video, we can send you the first ever 24.7national NBA YouTube channel and on audio, make your second. Listen, the Lockdown NFL Draft podcast. Follow Landon on Twitter @McCool BCB. I'm @Marcus Underscore Moser, and we'll see you right back here tomorrow.