6. We Tell Ourselves Stories

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Long Buried

Episode 6: We Tell Ourselves Stories
Date: May 12, 2026
Podcast: Long Buried | Host/Reporter: Phillip Pantuso (Times Union)

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Episode Overview

This final episode of Long Buried concludes the decades-long mystery of Karen Ramsey's disappearance and murder. Using newly uncovered documents, key interviews, and forensic details, reporter Phillip Pantuso explores not only what may have happened to Karen, but how and why her absence was ignored for so long. The episode grapples with the limitations of circumstantial evidence, the failures of bystanders, and the haunting, unfinished need to impose narrative order on unsolvable tragedies.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Revisiting Main Suspects and Evidence

• John Ramsey’s Credibility and Behavior

  • Pantuso recaps witness accounts from John’s friends, former wives, and brother, noting that while none believed him capable of murder, they struggled with inconsistencies in his story ([00:09]–[01:20]).
  • Notable quote:
    “He was brutally disinterested in our life.”
    — Carol Wheeler ([00:24])

• The Suspicious Condo Sale

  • In 1981, John sold the condo he shared with Karen, using what now appears to be a forged signature for the missing Karen ([01:24]–[07:57]).
  • Analysis of the deed signatures reveals that Karen’s 1981 signature does not match verified earlier examples, but is similar to the handwriting of Elaine, John’s new wife after Karen vanished.
  • Notable quote:
    “He had put the ad in the paper saying that, you know, his wife had ran off and he doesn't know where she is, right? And then not too long after that, somehow, magically, she reappears for a real estate transaction to sell the condo. So that was very suspicious to us.”
    — Investigator Joe Morrissey ([07:57])

• Missing Identification

  • Police never recovered Karen’s ID, a detail raising questions about who forged her signature and how they obtained the necessary identification ([08:43]–[09:00]).

2. Elaine Ramsey’s Relationship and Potential Involvement

• Relationship Timeline

  • Elaine and John were in a relationship well before Karen disappeared, despite Elaine’s claims to the contrary ([12:38]–[15:03]).
  • Notable quote:
    “There was a point in her interviews where she did make inquiries about statute of limitations on forgery, but still stated she didn't do it.”
    — Joe Morrissey ([15:48])

• Forgery Suspicions

  • While similarities exist between Elaine and the 1981 condo signature, and Elaine’s shifting story raises suspicion, there’s no conclusive evidence linking her to the forged document or Karen’s disappearance.

3. Assessing Motive and Opportunity

• John’s Background and Motive
  • Friends describe John as mild-mannered, but mention his struggles post-Vietnam and his heavy drinking; Karen was allegedly threatening to leave him and take their child ([17:31]–[17:52]).
  • Notable quote:
    “One of our interviews with Elaine, Elaine had stated that... there were some times where Karen had threatened to leave and take the child. So that's a pretty strong motive.”
    — Joe Morrissey ([17:39])
  • Ultimately, a lack of direct evidence means there won’t be justice or clarity—“too much time has passed. Too many pieces...are missing.” ([17:52])

4. Elimination of Ed White as a Suspect

• Background and Timeline
  • Ed had a history of substance abuse and domestic issues, but no evidence, motive, or opportunity to kill Karen—he was out of the area by her disappearance ([19:15]–[23:22]).
  • Notion that Ed and Karen’s relationship was part of an open marriage, reducing the drama and potential motive ([22:09]).

5. The Forensic Challenge: Concealing the Body

• Concrete Burial
  • Details about the concrete box—homemade, very heavy (~396 pounds without the body), likely constructed and moved by someone with masonry experience ([24:29]–[25:37]).
  • John’s background with concrete and his utility trailer gave him the means and ability ([25:24]).
  • Notable moment: Elaine asked police about the concrete’s recipe before they had discussed it with her, raising investigators' eyebrows ([24:48]).

6. Investigators’ Conclusions

• Perspective on John Ramsey as the Main Suspect
  • Morrissey is clear: If John were alive, he would be “in a very difficult position right now,” acknowledging strong circumstantial evidence ([26:31]–[27:16]).
  • Family members of John are portrayed sympathetically, innocent but deeply affected by the suspicion.

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Systemic Failures & the Nature of Missing Person Cases

7. The Problem of Unreported Disappearances

• Societal and Institutional Neglect

  • No missing person report was filed; no investigation at the time. Friends and family deferred to various explanations—Karen ran away, Karen was restless—rather than pushing for answers ([33:18]–[34:12]).

  • Notable quote:
    “Apparently never enough for them to say something.”
    — Joe Morrissey ([32:55])

  • The story exemplifies how women’s disappearances, particularly in past decades, went uninvestigated and unpublicized. The episode dives into the broader prevalence of missing women—and how little has changed.

8. Statistical and Social Context

• Contemporary Relevance
  • Pantuso cites statistics: over 26,000 open missing persons cases in the U.S., many involving violence against women ([34:12]).
  • Discussion of “missing white woman syndrome”—the way some cases get greater media attention, while others are ignored ([34:12]).

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The Isolation of Karen Ramsey

9. Family Dynamics and Aftermath

• Loss, Silence, and Denial
  • Karen grew increasingly isolated; her family believed she’d left by choice, and her sisters either cannot or will not discuss her ([36:28]–[37:14]).
  • Only small, poignant clues—like a mother’s annual calls to Karen’s friend, or a check left in her mother's notebook—attest to a private, long-running search for truth ([41:13]–[42:31]).
  • Notable moment:
    “Her mother did spend what sounds like most of the rest of her life in some effort to try to find her.”
    — Philip Pantuso ([45:17])

10. Burial and a Search for Meaning

• Gravesite Visit

  • Pantuso and producer Jessica Marshall visit the cemetery where Karen is now buried with her parents—her name not yet added to the stone ([43:28]–[44:12]).
  • Notable exchange:
    “She’s like, invisible here, too.”
    — Philip Pantuso ([44:42])

• On Narrative and Closure

  • Pantuso reflects on the impossibility of closure, invoking Joan Didion’s phrase, “we tell ourselves stories in order to live” ([46:45]).

  • The story John told about Karen—“she ran away, wanted to leave”—allowed him and others to move on, but it was never true.

  • The discovery of Karen’s remains decades later provides an end, but not resolution.

    • Notable quote:
      “There was only one end to Karen and Gilillo Ramsay’s story, and much like life itself, its meaning is a lot more ambiguous than closure in the traditional narrative sense. It all depends on where you’re standing.”
      — Philip Pantuso ([46:45])

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Memorable Moments & Key Quotes With Timestamps

• “[John] was brutally disinterested in our life.” — Carol Wheeler ([00:24])
• “He had put the ad in the paper saying that...his wife had ran off and he doesn’t know where she is...and then not too long after that, somehow, magically, she reappears for a real estate transaction to sell the condo. So that was very suspicious to us.” — Joe Morrissey ([07:57])
• “There was a point in her interviews where [Elaine] did make inquiries about statute of limitations on forgery, but still stated she didn’t do it.” — Joe Morrissey ([15:48])
• “One of our interviews with Elaine, Elaine had stated that...there were some times where Karen had threatened to leave and take the child. So that’s a pretty strong motive.” — Joe Morrissey ([17:39])
• “Apparently never enough for them to say something.” — Joe Morrissey ([32:55])
• “She’s like, invisible here, too.” — Philip Pantuso ([44:42])
• “We tell ourselves stories in order to live...Stories give structure to the chaos and confusion of life. Their power is that they end...But the story [John] told about Karen, it was not true. She did not run away to start a new life. She did not abandon her baby. She was killed and buried in concrete in the woods seven miles from where she’d lived.” — Philip Pantuso ([46:45])

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Timeline/Timestamps for Major Segments

• Introduction & Recap of Prior Episodes: [00:09]–[01:20]
• Condo Sale/Real Estate Fraud Evidence: [01:24]–[09:00]
• Elaine’s Possible Involvement & Interviews: [12:38]–[16:11]
• Establishing John’s Motive/Character: [17:31]–[18:14]
• The Ed White Angle: [19:15]–[23:22]
• Forensics and Discovery of Remains: [24:29]–[25:37]
• Morrissey’s Conclusions on Suspects: [26:31]–[27:16]
• Societal Patterns, Unreported Cases: [31:45]–[34:12]
• Open Questions and Family Isolation: [35:37]–[37:14]
• Final Gravesite Visit & Reflections: [43:28]–[45:45]
• End Reflections on Closure & Storytelling: [46:34]–[End]

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Conclusion

The Long Buried finale is as much about absence—of evidence, justice, and acknowledgment—as it is about the facts of Karen Ramsey’s tragic fate. Through careful investigation, personal narratives, and social context, this episode asks what it means to confront the stories we tell and those we choose not to. The ending offers no answers, but, like life itself, it pursues meaning amidst ambiguity, honoring Karen Ramsey not just with facts, but with a reckoning of what it means for someone to disappear, and why so many did—and still do.

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Transcript

[Jessica Marshall]

A times union podcast.

[Philip Pantuso]

Previously on Long Buried. We met John Ramsey's first wife, Zoanne Billigmeier, who left him not long before he started dating Karen Ramsey. Or maybe it was a little after. The timeline is hazy.

[Carol Wheeler]

He was brutally disinterested in our life.

[Philip Pantuso]

I got to know John pretty well. We also met John Ramsey's friend Chris west, who seems to have been one of the few people John talked to about his time in Vietnam. And we met John's younger brother, Steve, who recalled that John told him the same story about Karen's disappearance that he'd given other friends and family. The only thing that he directly had said to me, and I heard him say it a couple times, is that she was just tired of being married and being a wife and a mother and just wanted to leave Steve, Chris and Zoann provided valuable insight into what John Ramsey was like in the 1960s and 70s, before and during his marriage to Karen. They all struggle to believe he could have killed her.

[Joe Morrissey]

Everybody has secrets for the most part in their life, especially if you keep living.

[Philip Pantuso]

One of the many reasons why New York State Police investigator Joe Morrissey had come to suspect John Ramsey was the mysterious real estate transaction I told you about in the last episode. On September 28, 1981, John Ramsey sold the Holly Stream Court condo that he and Karen had purchased four years earlier. On the deed of sale, John attested to a notary that his wife still resided there, and a notarized signature for the name Karen Ramsey is on that document. But we now know Karen had vanished 16 months earlier. In fact, she was very likely dead when John sold that condo. So who signed that document? Philip. I'm Philip Pantuso. This is Long Buried, an investigative podcast from the Times Union. This is the sixth and final episode. We tell ourselves stories. Before we begin. A word of caution. This episode contains references to domestic violence. Please take care as you listen. If you or someone you know needs help, please call the National Domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-SAFE or visit our website for a list of additional resources. Now to some significant new information Tonight in a mystery dating back to 1980. State police say a Putnam county woman who disappeared that year was a victim of homicide.

[Carol Wheeler]

Her signature.

[Philip Pantuso]

Let me address something important at the top of this episode. There is no smoking gun connecting John Ramsey to Karen Ramsey's murder. And because there was no investigation into Karen's disappearance In the early 1980s, it appears John was never interviewed about what happened to his wife before he died in December 2022. About 16 months before Karen's remains were discovered. But there is a decent amount of circumstantial evidence that points to John as a suspect or at least strongly suggests that what he told friends and family about what happened to his wife wasn't true. One major piece is what Bob Beckerick, the Ramsey's upstairs neighbor, told me and told state police after he heard a chilling scream from the Ramsey's apartment in the middle of the night. He saw John throwing out Karen's stuff. Did you ever see Karen again after that?

[Joe Morrissey]

No. No, But I.

[Philip Pantuso]

You know, I guess naive. I didn't put two and two together that there was going to be a murder. Bob doesn't remember precisely when it was. Other than that it was around the time police now believe Karen was murdered. The late winter or early spring of 1980.

[Joe Morrissey]

When John had told him that, you know, Karen had ran off and taken the baby. Obviously, we know two of those things are definitely not true. We know she didn't run off and we know she didn't take the baby.

[Philip Pantuso]

Another big piece of evidence in the case against John is this 1981 real estate transaction. And there are three things I want to tell you about that. The first thing I did after finding the 1981 deed of sale for the Holly Stream Court condo was compare it to the 1977 deed when John and Karen purchased it. Since I knew that no one had seen or heard from Karen Ramsey Since 1980, I wanted to see if the 1977 and 1981 signatures looked the same. John's signature is identical on both documents. Karen's is not. As first reported by the Albany Times Union. Their signatures are on a 1977 document when they purchased the condo and again when it was sold in September 1981. That's more than a year after police believe Karen vanished. Second, remember in episode four, we learned that John Ramsey was granted a divorce from Karen in November 1980 on the basis of spousal abandonment. To obtain that divorce, John had to serve the papers to Karen in the local newspaper and swear to the court that he did not know where she was. So it's suspicious, to say the least, that less than a year later, John Ramsey swore to a notary that his supposedly missing wife still lived in the Holly Stream Court condo that he was now selling. Let's break that down further. When Karen and John bought that condo in 1977, they both used the same notary and both signed on the same date. But it did not happen that way. When John sold the condo on the Date that sale was finalized September 28, 1981. The attorney who notarized John Ramsey's signature is the same one who had handled his divorce the year prior. But the person who notarized the Karen Ramsey signature was someone who, as far as I can tell, was not part of any other transaction Karen or John ever completed. Also, Karen's signature is dated August 17, 1981, six whole weeks before John signed the document. So it appears that whoever signed Karen's name had gone to a notary who did not know Karen or John. John then waited six weeks before going to his attorney to complete the transaction. I wish I could ask that attorney why. Why he notarized John Ramsey's signature on this document, which already had his missing wife's signature on it. We know this attorney knew that Karen was missing. Remember, he was John's lawyer for the spousal abandonment divorce. But that attorney and the notary who handled Karen's signature are dead. This series of events stands out to New York State Police Investigator Joe Morrissey to.

[Joe Morrissey]

He had put the ad in the paper saying that, you know, his wife had ran off and he doesn't know where she is, Right? And then not too long after that, somehow, magically, she reappears for a real estate transaction to sell the condo. So that was very suspicious to us.

[Philip Pantuso]

What's more, by this time, most states required identification to get a document notarized. It would not have been easy for someone pretending to be Karen to get this deed notarized. They'd need legit id.

[Joe Morrissey]

We have good reason to believe that somebody, whoever, impersonated Karen, had some type of identification. Now that we know that Karen was dead at that time, why would you have a dead person's identification?

[Philip Pantuso]

The last thing to know about this real estate transaction is that while the 1981 Karen Ramsey signature does not look like other verified examples of her signature, it does bear some striking similarities to the signature of another person, Elaine Calvano Ramsey. It's important to note that handwriting analysis is notoriously subjective. It's generally considered a pseudoscience. It doesn't always hold up in court. I am not a handwriting expert by any stretch, but here's my layman's take on what I see when I look at the signatures. The consonants in Karen's signature on the original deed are angular. She dips the tail of her lowercase A's below the line in an unusual way. They look like backward E's. The whole signature is bold, never letting up from the tip of the first k. To the swoop of the last Y. By contrast, the notarized signature on the 1981 condo sale is distinctly lighter. Both the vowels and consonants are loopier. There are significantly fewer angles. It looks to me like the writer wasn't pressing down as firmly on the paper. The lowercase a's are completely different. Their tails remain entirely above the line, curving neatly into the R that follows these two signatures. They just don't look similar enough to completely convince me that they're from the same person, no matter how much I squint at them. But when I do the same comparison between the signature on the sale of the condo and Elaine Ramsey's signature that I found on another public document, it's less of a stretch. Elaine's signature has a lightness about it. It's flowy and loopy. The whole thing leans to the right. The thing that jumps out at me the most are Elaine's lowercase as that is. There's nothing remarkable about them. They look like typical cursive lowercase a's, just like the ones on the condo sales signature. You can see these signatures side by side on our website timesunion.com longburied. One other thing I want to mention. You'll recall that I obtained photos from the scene on Sofia Lane where Karen Ramsey's body was found. I also obtained the evidence logs and forensic photos of everything investigators gathered. The concrete block, the flower patterned underwear, the Bic lighter, the plastic garbage bags and the red tape. But also the real estate deeds I'd already found independently. Property records of their neighbors at Holly stream Court. A $25 check made out to Karen and John for their anniversary. Other items that don't tell us much about Karen, John or this case. These logs contain every piece of material evidence that police collected during the investigation. There's a lot there, but one thing is conspicuously absent. They never found Karen Ramsey's id. Was it Elaine impersonating Karen who signed that real estate document? We can't be sure. Elaine Ramsey has not been charged with anything in connection to this case. She denies having anything to do with this apparently forged document. State police investigator Joe Morrissey pressed her on it during several interviews.

[Joe Morrissey]

We kind of agreed to disagree on the real estate transaction, but again, she just said she didn't do it.

[Philip Pantuso]

Here is what we know about Elaine. Her part in this story is important, regardless of any potential direct involvement in the case. On October 10, 1981, less than two weeks after John Ramsey sold the Holly Stream Court condo, he married Elaine. We know the exact date because it's in John's obituary. We also know from several sources that Elaine and John were romantically involved for nearly two years before they got married. They likely got together before Karen went missing. According to their former neighbor, Jeannie White and Elaine's ex husband, Ronald Bailey, they were certainly together when John sold the condo in September 1981. Chris west remembers going on a hike with John and Elaine the previous December. He remembers it for one very specific reason.

[Joe Morrissey]

I remember hiking with John and Elaine.

[Philip Pantuso]

I guess it was that 1980 time

[Joe Morrissey]

when John Lennon was killed.

[Philip Pantuso]

FYI, Lennon was shot on December 8, 1980. Chris remembers that it was snowing on the day of the hike. After they married, Elaine took John's last name. Over the next four decades, she signed many publicly available documents. As I mentioned earlier, I found some of them. I also obtained a few photographs of Elaine from this era. It's not a stretch to say she could pass for Karen. They both have straight brown hair, parted in the middle, falling down past their shoulders. Both women have slender faces with high cheekbones and small, rounded noses. They both have slight petite frames, at least in relation to others in the photos we found both wore glasses, at least sometimes. We also know that what Elaine told police about when she got romantically involved with John shifted over the course of multiple interviews with investigators.

[Joe Morrissey]

She said that she had moved out of the condos in 1979 and that she really didn't get involved with John until she said about fall of 1980. And, you know, by that time, Karen was out of the picture and she didn't ask a lot of questions.

[Philip Pantuso]

This was not true based on what Jeannie White and Ronald Bailey shared.

[Joe Morrissey]

I asked him who took his place in the apartment when he left, and he said, no, Elaine stayed. I moved out, but Elaine stayed there, I think, until 1980 or 1981. And keep in mind, Elaine had initially told us she moved out in 1979.

[Philip Pantuso]

Police did ask Elaine about the 1981 real estate transaction. She denied having anything to do with it, and she did not answer my questions on this subject or any other. As we noted before, she declined to be interviewed for this podcast, and it does bear repeating. Elaine Ramsey has not been charged with anything in connection to this case. But during her interviews with police, she did ask something that Jo Morrissey found interesting.

[Joe Morrissey]

There was a point in her interviews where she did make inquiries about statute of limitations on forgery, but still stated she didn't do it. And that's really where we're at with her. You know, there was just Some conflicting pieces of information, but no proof that Elaine actually had any involvement in Karen's disappearance at that point.

[Philip Pantuso]

In case you're wondering, in New York State, the statute of limitations on fraud, including identity fraud, is six years. Even if Elaine had been involved in the forgery of Karen's signature, she could not be charged. I tried to get audio of state police's interviews with Elaine, but that part of my records request was denied. The reason? According to state police, releasing the audio files, even in a redacted form, would constitute an unwarranted invasion of the personal privacy of those concerned. Elaine's potential involvement aside, there's still the looming question, Did John Ramsay kill Karen? And if he did, what was his motive? Why would he kill his wife? From the last episode, we learned that John wasn't a known troublemaker. He was never convicted of a crime. Many who knew him remember him as mild mannered. They struggle to imagine he could have done something as heinous as murder. But we also know he had issues in at least two marriages. That when he came back from Vietnam, where he was a sniper in the early 1970s, he was more withdrawn. And as Joe Morrissey put it, apparently

[Joe Morrissey]

he was an above average drinker up until the end.

[Philip Pantuso]

And we know that Karen had threatened to run away with the baby more than once.

[Joe Morrissey]

One of our interviews with Elaine, Elaine had stated that, you know, obviously it wasn't a good relationship and that there were some times where Karen had threatened to leave and take the child. So that's a pretty strong motive.

[Philip Pantuso]

Would that hold up in a court of law? I'm not sure. We'll never find out. The truth is there is no neat and tidy ending to this case. Too much time has passed. Too many pieces of information are missing. Too many people are dead.

[Joe Morrissey]

The only people that. That really know the truth are, you know, Karen Ramsey and the people living with him at that time and knew him, you know, but even the people that knew him well still didn't really know people live with the guy and knew him are like, yeah, I mean, his wife just disappeared. Nobody's ever heard from, like, everybody at least thought about it once. But like, you know, nobody ever took that step to go, oh, he killed her, you know.

[Philip Pantuso]

It's also worth asking this. If John didn't do it, who did? According to state police, there is no evidence pointing to any other suspect in Karen's disappearance. Police investigators did look into Ed White, Jeannie's ex husband. Remember, he and Karen had had a brief relationship at Holly Stream court in the late 1970s. Could Ed have been the killer? Let's look at him for a moment.

[Joe Morrissey]

Ed White, you know, he had somewhat of some type of casual relationship with Karen. He was a handyman. He had a. Substance abuse problems, and he had some domestic issues with. With Jeannie, and he had some issues at work.

[Philip Pantuso]

Ed White's substance abuse problem was with alcohol. According to Chris west, who knew him, Ed's drinking was so bad that he got kicked off the New Rochelle Police Department. I remember one day the detectives came

[Joe Morrissey]

and took his weapon away. I guess he was released from his service.

[Philip Pantuso]

Jeanie told us about this, too. Ed's drinking and his temper. It was part of what police questioned her about when they first knocked on her door after Karen's remains were identified.

[Carol Wheeler]

And he said, by any chance, does he have a bad temper? And I'm like, he already knew it because he had already spoken to my ex, had gotten fired from the New Rochelle Police Department. So he already knew the whole story. So I said, yes, he does. He has a very good. He had a very bad temper. And he said, and did he know anything about construction? I'm sure he knew it too. You know, knew that too. So I said, yes. I said. He actually. So I. He said. I said, what does that have to do with it? He said, well, Karen was found in cement. So I said, well, I can tell you that my ex husband never worked in stone at all. I said, he was a carpenter, you know. And so I said, that's all he ever did. I never remember him touching stone or cement or whatever. But he said, needless to say, he said, he's still on our list. He was a lot of things, but I knew him. I was married to him almost 10 years, and I knew him long before that. I said, I don't. I don't think he could ever kill anyone.

[Philip Pantuso]

Turns out police also don't believe Ed White killed Karen. There are a few reasons why. One is that after Jeannie moved out of their condo in 1979, Ed also left the condo, went into foreclosure. According to Jeannie, Ed was no longer living in the area by the time Karen disappeared, and no one claims to have seen him there at any point after that. Police also don't think Ed White had a motive. By the time Ed left Brewster, his dalliance with Karen was over, apparently without much drama. And while Jeannie called her husband's relationship with Karen an affair, others who knew Karen and John at that time did not see it that way exactly. Some of those people Like Chris west said, they were in something like an open marriage. Toward the end, I told the police

[Joe Morrissey]

that I knew there was a lot of wipe swapping going on at the time where he lived.

[Philip Pantuso]

Chris says John and Ed even tried to hook him up with. With Karen.

[Joe Morrissey]

I don't know.

[Philip Pantuso]

I was just recently married and had

[Joe Morrissey]

a kid, so I was, you know, totally disinterested, really. The reason why we leaned off of Ed White was because he did not appear to have any type of motive. I know the word affair has been thrown around a few times in this investigation, but the truth is, when we interviewed friends and relatives and people that were in these social circles, it appeared more to us that it was four people. Two married couples having more of an open relationship and consenting adults less of an affair. That makes any sense.

[Philip Pantuso]

Police never got the chance to interview Ed White, though. He died in 2017 after spending the last several years of his life in an assisted living facility in Socrates.

[Joe Morrissey]

Me and my partner went up and we found him. Well, we didn't find him. We found where he lived. It was a facility in Saugerties. It's a facility for people who have lost some limbs. Most of the people there in wheelchairs. From what I understand, he became a diabetic later in life and had lost some limbs. And we talked to the property managers there, and they confirmed that he's deceased.

[Philip Pantuso]

By the time Ed White died, he was no longer in regular communication with Jeannie or their children.

[Carol Wheeler]

I said, I can get a funeral home to pick up the body. We'll have him cremated. I said, I just don't know who wants his ashes, because I don't. My son doesn't. So anyway, finally, I guess they took care of it because we never heard anything else.

[Philip Pantuso]

So that brings us back to John. There's one lingering question beyond the motive that we haven't addressed, even though I did ask it all the way back in episode three. How did Karen Ramsay end up buried in concrete in the woods? Here's what we know. John had experience working with concrete, particularly DIY projects. He built concrete cylinders for a deck at the house he and Elaine purchased after leaving Holly Stream Court. And he'd done some stonemason work for a construction company Elaine's father owned on Long Island. Remember what investigator Joe Morrissey told us about the concrete box that Karen's remains were found in?

[Joe Morrissey]

This particular concrete had a heavy sand content and a low stone content. Kind of one of the weaker forms of concrete. It might have been an actual. Not what, like a Store. You get a bag from the store, but like, an actual, like, mix that somebody made and that, you know, whoever did this might have some masonry background.

[Philip Pantuso]

Morrissey compared the concrete to the type of quick set mix you can buy at any hardware store. The mixtures were very similar. He also noted that Elaine asked a question about the composition of the concrete. Before police had told her they knew it wasn't commercial grade cement. We don't know for sure how Karen's body and the concrete block made it into the woods. But because of the way it was constructed, Morrissey's theory is that it was transported there in one piece. The forensics lab identified traces of wood in the concrete. Concrete likely from a wooden frame that has since rotted away.

[Joe Morrissey]

It looked like, you know, fairly well edged off rectangle. But we were able to get some measurements and some weights on the concrete itself. The concrete was somewhere around 396 pounds. Without a body.

[Philip Pantuso]

Police also don't have any theories about whether Karen's killer acted alone to conceal her body. But John Ramsey had a utility trailer that he used to halt bikes, which could have supported a concrete block of that size. According to police, he could have done it without help. As mentioned earlier in this episode, a lot of people we talked to who knew John Ramsey struggle to believe he could have killed Karen, but not everyone. The person who supposedly knew John best is not so sure. Remember what Elaine told police?

[Joe Morrissey]

She would say, make statements like, you know, I want to believe in my heart that John didn't do this, but he probably did it.

[Philip Pantuso]

I have to ask, how confident are you that John Ramsey killed Karen?

[Joe Morrissey]

So this is a subject that I'm gonna answer very carefully only because I will say that I did meet some of John Ramsey's family members in this investigation, and they are really good people who had nothing to do with this, and they deserve better. His brother was a good man, Stephen Ramsey. I met both his daughters, and they're really good people. And they really all do deserve better from what has happened here. But I will say, based upon all the leads that we uncovered, all the suspicious behavior on behalf of John himself, and somewhat on Elaine's part, I am very confident that if Mr. Ramsey was alive today, that he would be in a very difficult position. Position right now.

[Philip Pantuso]

We'll be right back.

[Jessica Marshall]

In July of 1908, America was transfixed by the murder of a young woman in upstate New York.

[Philip Pantuso]

Either Hazel came down here alive or dead. We don't know. No, I think she was alive.

[Jessica Marshall]

She was found floating in a country Pond, her death shrouded in mystery, her killer unknown? Was she murdered by a spurned lover? Was she leading a secret double life outside of her station as a governess to the wealthy residents of Troy, New York? Did she know too many secrets?

[Joe Morrissey]

She was obviously trying to create a better life for herself, and she knew how to maneuver to make it work for her. And it worked.

[Philip Pantuso]

Until it didn't.

[Jessica Marshall]

In this new limited series podcast from the Times Union, we'll go back in time to an era of wealth and prosperity, of rampant political corruption, and of secrets and lies in upstate New York. We'll unravel the mystery of the life and death of one young woman and why her story spread, still resonates more than a century later. Listen to the girl in the [e-mail] or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Philip Pantuso]

No fl you're listening to Long Buried.

[Jessica Marshall]

Yeah, I saw the sign for 43, like right up by the stop sign there.

[Philip Pantuso]

I think it was where we turned in, too. So I think maybe this whole section is 43.

[Jessica Marshall]

Okay.

[Philip Pantuso]

One afternoon in the early spring of 2026, my producer Jessica Marshall, and I drove down to Gate of Heaven Cemetery in Westchester County. It's really a beautiful place. Thousands of headstones neatly lined the gently rolling hills, which were emerald green on the sparkling day we were there. Just past the entrance, there's a large pond that reflects the sky above with a fountain and a stone arch bridge. There are tall trees and curved lanes and two stunning mausoleum complexes that offer visitors a respite. It's also huge. Since Gate of Heaven was consecrated as a Catholic burial ground in 1918, more than 190,000 people have been buried there. Several of them are quite famous. There's Babe Ruth, James Cagney, Mary Higgins Clark, Charles Schwab, Dutch Schultz, the mobster, Conde Nast, the magazine publisher, Jimmie Walker, the 98th mayor of New York City, Bess Houdini, the stage assistant to her husband Harry. But the vast majority of the people buried here lived quieter lives. You won't read about them on Wikipedia. Among them are Clement and Catherine Angelillo. In the fall of 2025, their daughter Karen was buried here. It's not hard to imagine how Karen and Jillillo Ramsey's story could have turned out differently, though. Maybe she never met John Ramsey at the Fireman's Fund insurance company. Maybe the pregnancy didn't introduce even more friction into their marriage. Maybe she maintained a closer relationship with her family. Maybe she never threatened to run away with the baby. Maybe. Maybe no one ever killed Her. But there's only one ending to Karen's story, and it's an ending all too common, particularly for women. Every year, a quarter of a million women and teenage girls are reported missing in the United States. Many of these cases are connected to violence, particularly male violence. Statistically, one in three women will experience physical or sexual violence in their lifetime. Or according to the un There are more resources for survivors now, and law enforcement generally takes these cases more seriously than they did in the 1970s and 80s. With those statistics, they really haven't changed much over the last few decades.

[Joe Morrissey]

I think the thing that affects me the most with this case is the fear of how many more Karen Ramsey's are out there. How many more stories are there out there like this right now where, you know, somebody went missing in the 70s or the 80s and, you know, nobody. It just wasn't treated like it would be today. And too much time has gone by and it's just something that isn't thought about enough today. This person. That's probably the thing that haunts me the most is like, how many more of these are. And I know there's, there's. There's definitely more of these out there. I think everyone has thought about since this has come to everybody's attention is how did this happen? How can this happen? One thing I don't want to do is point fingers at individuals and single anybody out in particular. But I will say that I think society in general at that time, everybody involved played a part, you know, whether it be law enforcement, friends, family. It seemed that everybody that I encountered had some suspicion, some knowledge, but it was just apparently never enough for them to say something.

[Philip Pantuso]

Apparently never enough for them to say something. This was something I encountered over and over again in my reporting. Did he ever tell you guys what happened?

[Joe Morrissey]

Basically, she abandoned her child. And did she abandon her child because she was dead or just disappeared?

[Carol Wheeler]

Don't know.

[Philip Pantuso]

Not much was said about it. And I was never interrogated back then. The only thing that he directly had said to me, and I heard him say it a couple times, is that she was just tired of being married and being a wife and a mother and just wanted to leave.

[Carol Wheeler]

I don't think the detective ever told me, like, I didn't know Karen was missing. He said, well, apparently nobody did. So I said, what do you mean? He said, nobody ever filed a report, a missing person report. And I thought that was sad. And so I said, john didn't. He said, no. And I said, I know she had at least one sister and he said, no. And I guess the sister said something similar to Karen takes off. You know, once in a while, Karen takes off. So I said, yeah, but she was gone for how many years?

[Philip Pantuso]

As of April 27, 2026, the U.S. department of justice has listed 26,372 open missing persons cases. The crisis is particularly acute for indigenous and black women and girls, whose cases typically get a fraction of the coverage as those of white women. There's a term for this missing white woman syndrome. Think Gabby Petito, Elizabeth Smart, Amber Hagerman. There are likely many more missing persons whose cases are unreported or lost to time for various reasons. That is, of course, what happened with Karen Ramsey. She vanished in 1980, was found in 2024 to have been murdered, and yet there's no missing person report, no record of an investigation. If Karen's disappearance had received any media coverage at the time she disappeared, I likely would not have done this podcast. But it was barely covered even after her remains were discovered. And there are still so many open questions. For example, it's impossible to say why with any certainty. There was no attempt by police to find out what happened to Karen through the 1980s, the 1990s, the 2000s, the 2010s, and half of the 2020s. But it probably did not help that by the time she was killed, she had become isolated from her family and from the friends who knew her before John.

[Carol Wheeler]

I never met a friend of Karen's. I never met a relative other than, you know, John and Jennifer.

[Philip Pantuso]

Police today think there might have been more of an organized effort to find Karen in the 1980s if everyone had agreed on what might have happened to her, but that was not the case.

[Joe Morrissey]

There were some family members that believed John and there were others that didn't believe him so much, but I guess there was never a giant fight about it. As far as I could tell, John, after Karen went missing, was. Was bringing Jen around a little bit to see Karen's mother. And he did, you know, obviously did not get along with the mother very well and eventually decided to cut ties with them completely. So I think not too long after Karen went missing.

[Philip Pantuso]

Karen's mother, Catherine Ward angilillo, lived until 2013. She was 97 years old when she died. She spent the latter decades of her long life in Parsippany, New Jersey. I tried to find people still alive who knew her, but haven't had much luck. If you're listening to this and you knew Katherine, please get in touch with. I want to know if Katherine had ever talked about her daughter. Karen's sisters seem to have buried the memory of her in the past. Karen's oldest sister, Joan, still struggles to talk about this case. She declined to speak to us for this podcast. The obituary for Karen's other sister, Susan, does not mention Karen at all. I have some sympathy for Joan and Susan. I can't imagine what it would be like if one of my siblings disappeared. And if I wasn't that close with that sibling and I knew that she was restless or unsatisfied with the life she had, maybe I too would choose to believe the happy. Well, happier ending to this, that Karen wasn't dead, that she had run off to start a new life and leaving her child behind was the price she paid for freedom. But Karen did not abandon her child. And as I would come to learn, Karen's mother did not abandon her child either. I mentioned earlier that among the items in the state police case file was a $25 check made out to Karen and John for their anniversary. It was one of the last things I got from my records request. That check was from Kathryn Angelillo, Karen's mom. Karen signed it on the back when she deposited the funds. That signature is why it was in the case file.

[Joe Morrissey]

One of my meetings with Joan. Early in the investigation, when we had figured out it was Karen, we had talked to family members about the real estate transaction and the suspicious signature. So Joan actually brought the check to one of the interviews just for us to have so we could look at the signature for comparison.

[Philip Pantuso]

Karen's signature on this check looks exactly like the signature on the deed of sale from 1977, when she and John bought the Holly Stream condo. And it does not look like the signature on the deed when John sold it four years later. But that signature is not what stands out to me about this check. Rather, two other things do. The first is when it was written. Catherine Angelillo dated it April 1, 1980. Karen deposited the check nine days later, April 10, 1980. According to the Marine Midland bank stamp on the back of the check. Recall that the first time John told Karen's family that she had left him was one month later on May 11, 1980, Mother's Day, when Karen didn't show up for a planned brunch with her sisters. I asked investigator Joe Morrissey about the date on the check. What does that tell you and when did you first notice that actually you

[Joe Morrissey]

had brought it to my attention? I was laser focused on the signature, but it probably wasn't something that stood out to me, because I'd already made up in my mind logistically how this could have been done. If you think about it, she was last physically seen, that I could tell from her family members around the holidays of 1979. I couldn't really get anybody else to commit to a specific time after that. Now, if you're burying a body in the woods, as you know, the ground is going to be very hard in this region of the country. You're probably not going to be able to break dirt like the. That deep until probably April or May. And obviously, we know she was reported missing as of May. So at that point, I had already decided that whatever happened, happened between April and May.

[Philip Pantuso]

Still, I think this is an important detail because it significantly shortens the window of time during which Karen went missing. And it means Karen apparently didn't see her family for the final four or five months of her life, even though her sisters and mother all lived within about an hour's drive. That lends credence to the suspicion friends had that Karen was isolated in Brewster. The second thing that stands out to me about this check is where it had been kept in the decades before it came into the possession of the New York State Police.

[Joe Morrissey]

Joan had said that she found it in her mother's belongings and that it was in some type of notebook, and that there were some notes in the notebook that appeared that the mother was doing her own little investigation in the notebook.

[Philip Pantuso]

No one seems to know where this notebook is now, so I can't tell you what else is in it. But this revelation stunned and. And moved me. It seemed to confirm something. A few of Karen's friends had said that Kathryn Angelo actually had tried to find her daughter after she disappeared, and that this effort may have even spanned decades.

[Joe Morrissey]

There was a rumor that they hired a private detective in the 90s and that the detective had told them that Karen had got a new identity, a new Social Security number, and, you know, but obviously we could never get anybody to tell us who this person was or anything, you know. Elaine said that she had no recollection of any private detectives ever coming around asking any questions. So the other side of the family didn't know either.

[Philip Pantuso]

Carol Wheeler, Karen's close pal from high school, who was one of the last friends to see Karen alive, told me that she'd heard this private detective rumor as well. And she said that Katherine used to call her every year to ask if she had heard from Karen, because, according to Karen's mom, Carol, would be the first person Karen would call if she wanted to be in touch with anyone but Carol. Carol, unlike Catherine, Angelillo always believed Karen was dead because Carol said she also knew Karen would have contacted her if she could. She never did.

[Jessica Marshall]

Here's Angelillo Clement. That's the dad and the mom.

[Philip Pantuso]

Yeah. Where's she. At? The Gate of Heaven cemetery. Jessica and I eventually found the headstone for Clement and Catherine Angelolo, but we were having trouble finding Karen, so I called the cemetery's office. Clem and Catherine. But we're having trouble finding her gravesite. They're together. They just don't have her name on the stone yet.

[Jessica Marshall]

Oh, okay.

[Philip Pantuso]

Okay, that solves it. So they're gonna add it to the stone at some point. Up to the family. Sure. Okay. All right. Thanks so much. That explains it. Bye.

[Jessica Marshall]

Yeah. This has to be from. Yeah, because if it was in the fall, it didn't have time for any grass growth.

[Philip Pantuso]

That's right. Yeah.

[Jessica Marshall]

Wow.

[Philip Pantuso]

So they haven't had. They haven't even added her name.

[Jessica Marshall]

I know.

[Joe Morrissey]

Ash.

[Philip Pantuso]

She's like, invisible here, too.

[Jessica Marshall]

It's interesting because it's very like. It kind of makes it even more, I don't know, real, I guess, because we've been kind of talking about it in the abstract. The bones that were dug up at that construction site are actually right here now.

[Philip Pantuso]

Yeah.

[Jessica Marshall]

They're once again buried.

[Philip Pantuso]

Yeah. Yeah. There's something poignant, too, about the fact that she's buried with her parents, because we know the death of her father was a destabilizing incident for her growing up. She was only 16 when that happened.

[Jessica Marshall]

Yeah.

[Philip Pantuso]

And then, of course, we have since learned that her mother did spend what sounds like most of the rest of her life in some effort to try to find her.

[Jessica Marshall]

Yeah. It kind of gives you a sense of color, closure. Even though we don't really have closure, I think, you know, in a traditional narrative sense.

[Philip Pantuso]

I haven't really known how to end this podcast. As Jessica said that day at Gate of Heaven, there is no closure in the traditional narrative sense. A year and a half after Karen Ramsey's bones were accidentally discovered in two Paterson, New York, they were reburied in a more suitable place. But there is no justice for Karen's murder. And the discovery of what had actually happened to her remains an open wound for her family and friends. So where does that leave me? The person who, by work related circumstance and by personal obsession is now telling you this story.

[Jessica Marshall]

How do you feel about that? Conclusion or semi conclusion. You know, like, how do you feel about that? Is that satisfying to you as a reporter?

[Philip Pantuso]

No, because within the investigative story, you were trying to find out conclusively what happened and who's responsible. Journalism works in the same way, or at least has the same goal in that narrow sense as the criminal justice system. And just like there will be no justice in a law enforcement sense in this case, there's not really a nice conclusion to my reporting. And so that leaves me slightly unsatisfied, you know. But that's also just the way life is sometimes. I've been thinking about that Joan Didion quote. We tell ourselves stories in order to live. Its meaning is clear. Stories give structure to the chaos and confusion of life. Their power is that they end. Maybe it's a happy ending. Maybe it's a sad one. Maybe it's something in between. But the ending gives shape to the story being told. It gives it meaning. John Ramsey told a story about Karen. Whether he believed it or not, that story allowed John to move on with the rest of his life. It seems to have been a full life, one that touched many people positively. But the story he told about Karen, it was not true. She did not run away to start a new life. She did not abandon her baby. She was killed and buried in concrete in the woods seven miles from where she'd lived. And she never would have been found before a totally random swipe of an excavator 44 years later. There was only one end to Karen and Gilillo Ramsay's story, and much like life itself, its meaning is a lot more ambiguous than closure in the traditional narrative sense. It all depends on where you're standing. So on that sunny spring day at the Gate of Heaven Cemetery, standing at the foot of the Angelillo burial plot, the robins singing in the church trees, the Metro north train rumbling in the distance, I did not feel a sense of closure. But it did feel like an end. Long Buried is a Times Union podcast. This episode was reported and written by me, Philip Pantuso, with additional contributions from Jessica Marshall. It was produced and edited by Jessica Marshall, editorial direction and fact checking by Erica Smith and Casey Seiler. George Ruiz designed our logo. Our theme music was composed and performed by Martin D. Fowler, with additional music by C Minor, Kron Borg, Cyrus Farah and Rob McAllister by eGetty Images. Our web editors are Daniel Roberts and Cat Simon. Archival sound came from CBS New York. Special thanks to Frances Catherine Benedict, Cupstice, Michael Frank, Nora Machanik, Maria Silva, Sarah Trafton, and Cat Simon for your sharp insights and invaluable feedback on this series. To see photos and a timeline of this case, visit timesunion.com longburied if you have questions about the story or want to share any information you may have about it, email us at [e-mail].