5 | Psycho Killer

Summary

Lords of Death: Episode 5 | Psycho Killer

Host: Thrasher Banks
Produced by: Tenderfoot TV & Audacy
Release Date: December 9, 2024

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Episode Overview

In Episode 5 of Lords of Death, titled "Psycho Killer," host Thrasher Banks delves deeper into the enigmatic 1995 Potts murders in Dayton, Ohio. This installment uncovers conflicting testimonies, explores the murky connections between various individuals involved, and introduces the shadowy group known as the "Lords of Death." As Thrasher navigates through a web of deceit and hidden motives, he inches closer to unraveling the truth behind multiple unsolved cases tied to the Potts murders.

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Key Interviews and Claims

1. Confronting Pete Gravens

The episode primarily features an intense conversation with Pete Gravens, a pivotal figure linked to the Potts murders.

• Initial Accusations:
  Thrasher receives an angry voicemail from Pete after Gary Alexander, Tim Terrell's cousin, implicates Pete in the Potts murders. At [02:24], Pete exclaims, "Gary Alexander that motherfucker is a piece of shit."

• Pete's Defense and Family Connections:
  Pete vehemently denies involvement, asserting his loyalty to Tim. At [04:40], he states, "I seriously don't think Timmy had anything to do with fucking Mr. Potts." He also reveals that his father, Joe Gravens, was a deputy sheriff who worked security at the Potts property, adding layers of complexity to his alibi and potential involvement.

• Alibi Scrutiny:
  Thrasher investigates Pete's alibi, uncovering discrepancies. Pete claims he was incarcerated during the Potts murders, but records show he was released in January 1989, casting doubt on his innocence regarding the October 1988 murder of Leila Potts.

2. Jason's Revelations

Months after Pete's death in July 2019, Thrasher receives a text from Jason, Pete's former brother-in-law, claiming insider information about Pete's involvement.

• Detailed Account of the Murders:
  At [14:40], Jason outlines a scenario where Pete acted as the driver and watch guard, while Tim and Jim orchestrated the murders. Jason describes how Tim attempted to kill Homer Potts but was interrupted by Leila, leading to a brutal confrontation.

• Motivations and Insurance Fraud:
  Jason posits that the murders were financially motivated, linked to insurance and inheritance disputes. He mentions, "Leila was supposed to pay Homer's killers, but failed to do so."

3. Tricia's Testimony

A crucial but anonymous source, Tricia, provides a harrowing account of witnessing satanic rituals and brutal torture linked to Tim Terrell.

• Satanic Rituals:
  At [26:24], Tricia recounts, "Tim liked to sacrifice little animals... He was like the priest, you know what I mean."

• Witnessing Torture:
  She describes a woman being tortured and forced to participate in heinous acts, implicating Tim as a key perpetrator: "He was laughing as he was torturing this lady and like stabbing and doing heinous things to her."

4. Anonymous Source on Margaret's Involvement

An unnamed relative of Margaret, John's girlfriend arrested for a gun store robbery, provides additional insights linking her to satanic rituals and multiple murders.

• Pattern of Violence:
  They describe Tim and Jim as serial killers involved in various brutal murders, including that of Leila Potts: "They used to drive around in a van and Tim would be in the back and they would pick up girls. Some were prostitutes and Tim would kill them."

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Evidence and Alibis

• Homer Potts' Estate:
  Thrasher examines Homer's probate documents, revealing over $18,000 in cash assets at the time of his murder, supporting the motive of financial gain.

• Discrepancies in Pete's Alibi:
  Contrary to Pete's claims of incarceration during the Potts murders, records show he was released shortly after Leila's murder, undermining his credibility and suggesting possible involvement.

• Hidden Connection Through Employment:
  Pete's father, Joe Gravens, served as a security guard at the Potts property, positioning Pete in proximity to the crime scene and existing witnesses.

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The Lords of Death: Unveiling the Cult

The episode introduces the clandestine group known as the "Lords of Death," suggesting a cult-like structure behind the murders.

• Initiation Rituals:
  Thrasher uncovers that membership involves taking someone's life, evidenced by the exclusive tattoo associated with the group: "You had to take someone's soul."

• Leadership and Recruitment:
  Jim is portrayed as the leader with Tim as his second-in-command, actively recruiting and indoctrinating members into their nefarious activities.

• Thrasher's Correspondence with Tim:
  In a bold move, Thrasher writes to Tim seeking clarity on Cindy Kozad's murder. Tim's cryptic response advises Thrasher to investigate Mick's involvement: "I'm not asking you to believe me over Mick..."

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Cindy Kozad's Murder: The Inception of the Chaos

Cindy Kozad's unsolved murder acts as a catalyst, intertwining with the Potts case and revealing the breadth of the Lords of Death's operations.

• Mick's Potential Involvement:
  Thrasher theorizes that Mick's role in Cindy's murder may have been his initiation into the Lords of Death, paralleling Jim's influence over Tim regarding the Potts murders.

• Symbolism and Group Dynamics:
  The presence of the Lords of Death symbol and the shared violent rituals indicate a deep-seated, organized conspiracy linking multiple murders.

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Investigative Findings and Conclusions

Thrasher synthesizes the gathered testimonies and evidence to construct a plausible narrative:

1. Financial Motive:
   The significant cash assets in Homer's estate and the insurance scam theory suggest a money-driven motive for the Potts murders.

2. Cult Influence:
   The Lords of Death's involvement introduces a ritualistic and ideological layer to the crimes, indicating the murders were not solely for financial gain but also for maintaining power within the cult.

3. Conflicting Alibis and Testimonies:
   Discrepancies in Pete's alibi and the conflicting accounts from Gary and Jason highlight the complexities and challenges in establishing a clear sequence of events.

4. Lack of Concrete Evidence:
   Despite compelling testimonies, the absence of direct evidence and the deaths of key witnesses hinder the resolution of the case, leaving many questions unanswered.

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Looking Forward

As Thrasher concludes the episode, he acknowledges the unresolved aspects of the investigation and the looming presence of additional murders linked to the Potts case. The search for a definitive witness continues, with hopes of finally bringing closure to the victims and their families.

Notable Quotes:

• Pete Gravens ([02:24]):
  "You should call me. I can tell you some fucking stories, dude."

• Jason ([14:40]):
  "Pete was the driver and tasked with guarding the back door. Tim was supposed to knock on the front door and kill Homer."

• Tricia ([26:24]):
  "He was laughing as he was torturing this lady and like stabbing and doing heinous things to her."

• Tim's Response ([34:53]):
  "I'm not asking you to believe me over Mick. So ask him to explain what happened on his last case..."

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Final Thoughts

Episode 5 of Lords of Death masterfully intertwines personal testimonies, investigative journalism, and haunting mysteries to paint a chilling portrait of the Potts murders and the sinister forces behind them. Thrasher Banks' relentless pursuit of truth amidst obstructions offers listeners a gripping exploration of memory, perception, and the dark corridors of human nature.

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Credits:
Produced by Meredith Stedman and Dennis Cooper. Special thanks to Tori Ross, Caitlin Kabowski, and Thrasher's mother Carrie. Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set with additional music by Thrasher Van. For more episodes, visit Tenderfoot TV.

Transcript

[Thrasher Banks]

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[Richard Jacobs]

Was a complicated man. Richard was quite smart.

[Pete Gravens]

Probably Attorney Spade.

[Thrasher Banks]

He could have really changed the world.

[Jason]

To the United States.

[Pete Gravens]

Suprius Mental health Narcissism would be the.

[Richard Jacobs]

Biggest, but he was also my dad. This is how to destroy everything. A journey into the past along with my best friend hey Danny as we try to answer the most important question of all. What if you're like your father? Follow us on Apple, Spotify or wherever.

[Meredith Stedman]

You get your podcasts.

[Richard Jacobs]

Lords of Death is released weekly every Monday and brought to you absolutely free. But if you want to hear the whole season, right now it's available ad free on Tenderfoot. Plus you'll find the link to subscribe in this episode's show Notes.

[Meredith Stedman]

You're listening to Lords of Death, a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with Odyssey. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals participating in the podcast. This podcast also contains subject matter which may not be suitable for everyone, including themes of murder and sexual violence. Listener discretion is advised.

[Pete Gravens]

Gary Alexander that motherfucker is a piece of shit. I don't even know why Gary's breathing air at this moment in his life because he's such a piece of back.

[Richard Jacobs]

In 2018, I received a tip from Tim Terrell's cousin, Gary Alexander. He told me that one of Tim's close friends, a man named Pete Gravens, had intimate knowledge about the Potts murders. After Pete caught wind of what Gary told me, he called and left me this angry voicemail you're hearing now.

[Pete Gravens]

You should call me. I can tell you some fucking stories, dude. I fucking knocked out more fucking people in this town and I am loved in this town, but Gary Alexander is a piece of shit. Aw man.

[Richard Jacobs]

Pete wasn't too happy about Gary's claims and was quick to shut them down. But he didn't exactly distance himself from the murders. Instead, he shared an interesting connection between his family and the Potts.

[Pete Gravens]

My dad was a deputy sheriff in Guernsey county. And he watched over the Potts. And I was friends with Timmy. But when them fucking murderers, I wasn't even around. But I know him. I know who you are now.

[Richard Jacobs]

From Tenderfoot tv. I'm Thrasher Banks, this is Lords of Death. All right, so. So tell me what you know, Pete.

[Pete Gravens]

What I know Gary's a half. That stuff that he told you is a lie. Why he's doing that, I don't know. Because he's jealous of everybody. Everybody hated him before he left here.

[Richard Jacobs]

This was my first conversation with Pete Gravens after he heard that Gary had implicated him in the Potts murders. How do you know Gary?

[Pete Gravens]

I grew up around him and Timmy. I knocked Gary's front teeth out.

[Richard Jacobs]

So what's that all about?

[Pete Gravens]

He was an asshole. He deserved it. And that's been 30 some years ago. I figured that's why he brought my name in it, because he's always been pissed off at me for punching him in the mouth one time and knocking his front teeth out. He ain't the only one. I've knocked their front teeth out. You know, we did some fucked up shit back in the day, Gary. I can guarantee you did at least 30 fucking burglaries. That was a kleptomania stealing motherfucker.

[Richard Jacobs]

I was patient and allowed Pete to make his case about Gary's credibility. But I didn't call to talk about Gary's petty crimes. I wanted to know the truth about the Potts murders. Help me straighten it out.

[Pete Gravens]

Dude. I've never been to the Potts property. And my mom and dad worked there as a security guard for the sheriff's department. My dad was a security guard there. I wasn't even around during that. Everywhere my dad worked, I showed up to his job on a regular basis just to bullshit with him, trading vehicles or something. I was always wherever my dad was.

[Richard Jacobs]

You may remember from an earlier episode that Lela's niece Patty hired Buckeye Guard security to monitor the Pots property after Homer's murder, which lasted a month or so. Well, it turns out Pete's dad Joe was the security guard who worked there and stayed on the property. Pete's argument here doesn't really make sense. Just because his dad worked security at the Pots property. Doesn't clear his name, but it does raise a lot of questions. Let's assume Gary is right and Pete was involved in the murders. Well, his dad Joe would have been alone with the only witness. On top of that, Joe was a special deputy for the sheriff's office investigating the murder. If Information emerged about Pete and Tim's involvement. Joe was in a unique position to tip them off, which apparently wasn't unusual for him to do.

[Pete Gravens]

He kept me out of jail because he would tell me who was good and bad around here, who they were watching and who they weren't. My dad never once looked at me and told me that he thought Timmy was involved with that shit. My parents were down there, and if my dad thought Timmy had anything at all to do with that, he would have told me. Dude, if he thought Timmy was involved with that, my dad would have pulled me off to the side and said, hey, they think that he did this.

[Richard Jacobs]

They did think Tim did it.

[Pete Gravens]

No, my dad was a cop that didn't think Timmy did it.

[Richard Jacobs]

Pete was unwavering in his defense of Tim. But what about the accusations that he was involved in the murder? What was his alibi?

[Pete Gravens]

All you gotta do is check it, too. When I was locked up in Lancaster, Ohio, or when I was in Connecticut, because I was not around during them murders, I'm pretty sure I was in Lancaster prison.

[Richard Jacobs]

What were you in there for?

[Pete Gravens]

I drove a car because of some B es and they caught us all. And I was the last one to.

[Richard Jacobs]

Go to court over it at the time. I took Pete for his word on this. In the summer of 1985, he was caught breaking into a school with Tim. So it made sense he would have been in prison when the murders happened two years later.

[Pete Gravens]

I can agree to disagree with you on this fucking pothole shit, dude, because some of it has made sense, some of it hasn't. And I trusted Jimmy, and I never fucking thought for once that he had anything to do with them potters and shit. I seriously don't think Timmy had anything to do with fucking Mr. Potts. Now, if he was following for the second part of that, maybe, I don't know, because I wasn't around. Did I think he was capable of doing stuff like that? Hell, yes, if he was drunk.

[Richard Jacobs]

While Pete doesn't believe that Tim had any involvement, he does admit that Tim is capable of murder. But we can't leave out Jim, the supposed leader of the Lords of Death, who's alleged to be involved in both Homer and Leila's murders. So I asked Pete what he knew about Tim and Jim's relationship.

[Pete Gravens]

They were friends when friendship meant something. They were brothers when brothers meant something. They have some history together. They have some secrets. Probably, yes, but did they kill Leila Potts? I don't think so, But I'm not gonna tell you yes or no, dude? Cause I wasn't there. I don't know. I think if Timmy would have done that, he would have told me. Because me and him were that close. He takes his friendships seriously. Timmy's a loyal pup, but Timmy was a follower. Timmy wouldn't think of doing some stupid like that. Timmy wouldn't go out of his way to do like that. And if it happened, it happened because he was there to impress them or he was there because of them. And like I said, I can't. I can't see Timmy doing it unless he was there doing it because of them. That's the only way, dude. And is he capable? Yeah. With the alcohol and that. The thing is, you need to get into their heads, and you probably won't be able to do that.

[Richard Jacobs]

You could.

[Pete Gravens]

Oh, I know I could. But I got more loyalty to him. Timmy's never gonna tell on nobody. And in that sense, I'm not gonna tell on him for anything. I know that he's done wrong that's going to cause him any more grief.

[Richard Jacobs]

You honestly, you don't think they killed Leela and then bailed to Florida a few days later?

[Pete Gravens]

I don't know what they did, but I don't think they did that shit together.

[Richard Jacobs]

I'll be honest, I don't know what to make of Pete. We had several phone calls like this that went on for hours. And he would message me almost daily. Sometimes I'd talk about Tim, other times he'd just send me obscene material. Like a video of a crocodile dragging a human corpse in a river. The truth is, Pete made me uneasy. So I played things pretty slow to build trust, which I now regret. There were so many things that never got depressed him on before his health got the best of him. So are you in remission or what?

[Pete Gravens]

I went and had radiation and chemo last year, so. And it's supposed to be gone. I'm just suffering the after effects of it. I'm supposed to be cancer free now, but.

[Richard Jacobs]

How you feeling?

[Pete Gravens]

I'm still alive and kicking anybody that gets close.

[Richard Jacobs]

In July of 2019, Pete passed away at the age of 55. But that wouldn't be the last I'd hear about Pete Gravens. A few months later, I received this random text from an unknown number. It read, I have inside info, missing pieces of the story. I want peace. I know too much. Pete was Tim's best friend. He wasn't just one of your sources. He was a protected accomplice. LOD was on Pete as well.

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[Richard Jacobs]

In January of 2020, about six months after Pete Graven's passing, I received a text from an unknown number claiming to have inside information about the Potts murders. They also seemed to have intimate knowledge about Pete, insinuating that he too was a member of the Lords of Death. It reads, I spent two weeks with him before he died. He had many confessions before his death. He told me about weapons and bodies in his yard. You should get people to dig up his land. Pete didn't go for Leila, but was there for Homer. Tim was an accomplice for both. Pete's job was to drive and be a watch guard. He stabbed Homer two times, killing the poor man. Mrs. Potts hired them to get insurance and inheritance, but she didn't pay the agreed amount, explaining the brutal results of Timmy getting pissed. Eventually, I'd learned that the person texting me was Pete's former brother in law, Jason, who was married to one of his sisters in the early 90s. He'd often hang out with Pete and Tim before Tim moved to Dayton. I was skeptical about his claim that Pete was involved in Homer's murder, because when I spoke with Pete, I took him at his word that he was in prison when the Potts murders happened. So I decided to pull Pete's records to see if his alibi checked out. And surprise, it didn't. Pete went to prison In July of 1987, almost six months after Homer's murder. He was released in January of 1989. So Jason's right that he couldn't have been involved in Lilo's murder in October of 1988. So I decided to give Jason a call to see what else he knew.

[Jason]

Pete was always a driver, like the backup guy, you know, watch the back door, drive the car, like whatever it could do to keep him out of the gory shit because he couldn't even change a diaper, really. Pete. But I do know that Timmy was involved in both. Pete was in one. He was in Homer's. Layla was actually. That was an insurance scam. She was looking for people. She had him off because of the settlement she was going to get. And, you know, her parents giving Homer the rights to her inheritance, it always made her mad, apparently, to. According to them, or I should say to Pete, just Timmy wouldn't say, but just smile.

[Richard Jacobs]

So according to Jason, the setup went like this. Pete was the driver and tasked with guarding the back door. Tim was supposed to knock on the front door and kill Homer. But things didn't go according to plan.

[Jason]

And when they went in the front, only Leila was in there. So you think Pete saw him getting.

[Richard Jacobs]

Away and hopped out of the car and finished him off?

[Jason]

Yeah, I think he was already out back waiting.

[Richard Jacobs]

What do you think motivated him to, like, keep communication with me? Do you think he was trying to control the narrative?

[Jason]

Oh, of course he tried to control everything.

[Richard Jacobs]

He would just say, you know, Tim didn't kill the pot. They'll just say it.

[Jason]

I'm not laughing at you, brother, but that's him.

[Richard Jacobs]

He told me I had a lord of death trying to steer my narrative this whole time.

[Jason]

Well, there it is. Buddy.

[Richard Jacobs]

And as far as Jason's claims about Pete's involvement in Homer's murder, I found some of the details compelling. Jason said Pete stabbed Homer after he ran outside, presumably to try to ring the bell, which would explain the lack of blood throughout the house. His account is similar to what Tim's cousin Gary told me, except in Jason's version, Tim and Pete were hired by Leila to kill Homer. In Gary's version, Jim was attempting to rob Homer and ended up killing him. Then Lela said if Jim spared her life, she would give him all of the insurance money. The problem with Gary and Jason's claims is that they were missing a key detail. How did these guys know Homer and Leila in the first place? The only possible connection I could make at the time was through some documents I found inside the box. My mom gave me notes written by Tim's parole officer that detail his life back in 1987, the year Homer was murdered. He said that while Tim was in between various factory jobs, he would do random work for farmers and other locals. I didn't think much of it at the time because the pods aren't mentioned, but one day, I received a message out of the blue that would help validate this. It came from one of Tim's former stepkids. I'm leaving out their name to protect their privacy, but here's what they had to say about Tim. He was a normal guy, fun and easygoing, but something always felt off. I always tried to find things out about him and never fully trusted him. He always made random comments or told stories that haunt me to this day. Because I was an oblivious child. I never assumed the worst out of people. They always were just stories. But the older I got, I wondered if they really were just stories. He would make comments about how to kill someone with items from a toolbox. I told him it was impossible to stab someone in the skull with a screwdriver, and he said, with enough force, it's possible. I know. That's how he told me about the pots, and then I asked about how they died, and he said, painfully, he was a handyman. That's how the story went. They were working for the pots, doing handyman things. I don't know exactly what that entailed, but at the time, in a small town, when people did work for you or helped you out, they would invite you in, give you drinks, let you use the restroom, cook you meals. So Jim was inside the house and saw a stash of money. He told Tim, and they planned to confront Homer about giving them more money. They felt shorted and that they were made to be fools. He told me that the old man wouldn't give them the money. He was supposed to pay up, but backed out. The wife was warned, and she failed, too, so she had to die. He creeped me out, and I didn't want to talk about it anymore, so I ended the conversation and walked away. Like I said, was he just telling me a story, or was he reliving something he did? Mick is the one who told me it was Tim and Jim. I always thought it was a joke. He said they confided in him. I blew it off as a joke. Like, seriously. My stepdad is weirdly confessing a crime to me, and his prison BFF is confirming they were there. To me, this version makes the most sense because it offers a direct connection between Tim and Jim and the pots. It also suggests a motive, a stash of money at the house. But if this was going to be my shot at establishing a motive, I need to be sure of it. So I pulled Homer's estate documents from the county probate court, and sure enough, homer had over $18,000 in cash assets when he was murdered. And after speaking with Homer and Leila's nephew Tim, I'd get even more confirmation.

[Pete Gravens]

Patty had gotten some money from the house the day after Homer's murder. Leila was in the because she asked me to go with her. She was afraid to be carrying that money around, and I went with her to the bank to have that put in the safe box.

[Richard Jacobs]

The information I received about Homer's murder offered up a motive for why leila was killed 20 months later. According to Jason and Tim's former stepchild, Leila was supposed to pay Homer's killers, but failed to do so. So let's reexamine the days leading up to her murder. On October 23, 1988, Tim, Jim, and Margaret broke into Bob Henthorne's gun store and stole an assortment of firearms and ammunition. They stashed the guns at John and Margaret's trailer in Byesville, a couple miles from Leila's house. The next night, Martha Cole's service station was robbed by two masked men with handguns. They cut the phone lines at the scene, just like at Leila's. When Detective Vanhorn talked to Martha, she didn't identify the culprits. But according to Bob Hinthorn, who was robbed the night before, when he spoke with Martha, she told him who was responsible.

[Jason]

So I drove up there to see the old lady, see what I could find out and she tells me about coming in there and robbing her and I don't know what all else they done to her. Tied her up in the chair and left her. She just told me it was Jim Tubble and I don't remember if she said Terrell or not, but she told me it was a Tubble boy.

[Richard Jacobs]

So what about the next night? Was Leela's murder the finale of a three day crime spree? Sure, I've heard stories from multiple people at this point that they did it, but that won't bring justice for Homer and Leila. Even Detective Van Horn said it would take a miracle to solve it. At this point, since I started my investigation, several people with valuable information have passed away. There's Bob Hinthorn, Tim's brother Terry, his cousin Gary and Pete Gravens. And Vanhorn. His memories of his days in law enforcement have faded away. At this point, the only hope is that there's a witness out there with a firsthand account of what happened. And while I haven't been able to find that person yet, I was about to get one step closer.

[Thrasher Banks]

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[Richard Jacobs]

A few years back I connected with a woman named Tricia who claimed to have information about a witness to Leila's murder.

[Tricia]

I was 18 when my mom came home from work and told me that a woman had came into her office that had been at the Potts murder when Leila was killed. Had been was there was present during that and my mom was crying when she was telling me by the way my mom is terrified. She's crying and this is not my mom's personality and was saying that this lady came in and said that she had been there and was forced to participate.

[Richard Jacobs]

Tricia's mom worked at Guernsey County Drug and Alcohol. It's not clear who this woman was that made these claims.

[Tricia]

She started opening up to my mom before the murders. They would go to this cemetery across from the Potts house. Tim liked to sacrifice little animals and he would lay out his Bible and he would have his candles and he would do this whole big ritual. They would drink the blood of the animals. They would do this whole thing. He was like the priest, you know what I mean? He was the little Tim. This is where he was not little. This is where he shined. If you would be sitting up where the cemetery was, you could see the Potts house.

[Richard Jacobs]

This cemetery is behind the church where the car was parked the night of Lilo's murder. When she first told me this story that Tim held rituals in a cemetery and sacrificed animals, I thought it might have been exaggerated. Over the years it happened during the Satanic panic. And all but multiple people who were close with Tim have confirmed these claims.

[Tricia]

I don't know where it came up with the idea to go over there or how that happened, but I know then this woman didn't want to be involved in this thing with Leila. But she was scared for her life and terrified. She was on drugs when this happened. She describes to my mom the very gruesome stuff that was involved. They made her. She either held the knife, held her down, stabbed her, something that she had to be involved in. She was threatened that they will kill her if she ever said a word. But she watched what she witnessed them do to Leah. She wasn't just killed, she was tortured. They didn't just kill her. This girl had to hold her down while the torture. They were torturing her. And Tim was laughing as he was torturing this lady and like stabbing and doing heinous things to her. Really sick things. And my mom was crying. The woman was saying about Tim being so evil inside that home, like he had no soul getting pleasure out of what he was doing. She knew he would kill her. She had no doubt Tim Terrell would kill her. She feared for her life. And again, there was. She wasn't alone. It wasn't two people. There was at least two guys. It was a little group and she was terrified of them. Kept mentioning Tim especially, but there were other names, but Tim's the one that was in my head. But I'm sure she's scared for her life today.

[Richard Jacobs]

Trisha's mom shared the information with law enforcement, but it's not clear what happened after that.

[Tricia]

You don't say something like this in a little office where this office is connected with every judge, police, probation court, law enforcement. You don't work there. Have a woman come in and say something as famous as the Potts murders in this town, as heinous as Leila Potts murder, to name names, because I guarantee every law enforcement in this town understood his name that day. If they didn't know before that woman went in that office. But later on in life, when my mom found out he killed a prostitute, my mom was so upset and enraged because she said they let a murderer go. They knew he did it. Then that lady told the truth.

[Richard Jacobs]

But how can we be sure of this if we can't identify the person who made these claims? The first person who came to mind was Margaret, since she was John's girlfriend and was arrested with Tim and Jim for the gun store robbery. I've reached out to her on several occasions, but she's declined to speak with me. However, back in 2018, I spoke with one of her relatives whose identity we're keeping anonymous. They sent me this message that details conversations they had with Margaret over the years. Here's what they had to say. They were into satanic rituals, so that's what they did. They really believed in the devil and sacrifices. They believed the devil's work was unfinished. What I've been told is that Tim killed quite a few girls back in the day and Jem and his brothers were involved. They used to drive around in a van and Tim would be in the back and they would pick up girls. Some were prostitutes and Tim would kill them. A prostitute in Florida was the first one I heard about. Then after that came the pots and other stories. The story she told me was that they robbed a store the night before and that they went to Leila's because they'd been told she had a lot of money stashed in the house. Tim took a screwdriver, looked at Jim and said, I can make her eyes pop out of her head. Then he stabbed her. She said the first time he did it, he got mad because it didn't go through. So he kept doing it until it did. She said they came home with a trash bag full of money and a photo album. There was money in it, old coins and hundred dollar bills. They used it to get to Florida. She said they wanted her to testify back then, but Jim threatened her. A couple of things stand out to me from this account. Information that only someone with direct knowledge of Leila's murder would know. Like the fact it took several attempts to get the screwdriver to go into Leila's skull. This matches up with the autopsy report. Then there's the photo album, which we heard about from Pete in the last episode. Both Pete and this anonymous source said it contained money that they then used to get down to Florida. At this point, I feel like I've done everything I can to answer what happened to Homer and Lila Potts. Now it's time to bring this full circle, because there's still another murder I need to try to make sense of, the one that started this whole thing. Cindy Kozad. When I spoke with Pete, he made a random comment in reference to Cindy's murder. That got me thinking.

[Pete Gravens]

Like I said, that's what made sense about the fucking girl up there is that he wanted to impress Mick. And saying, look, now I know your secrets. Now you know mine. Now we can do stuff together.

[Richard Jacobs]

He suggested that Mick was roped into murdering Cindy, the same way he believes Jim roped Tim into killing Lila Potts. Could this have been Mick's initiation ritual to join the Lords of Death?

[J]

I noticed that everything they had, like, a Lords of Death symbol. What is this? That says, that's our group. Like, what is this? This is just our gang. That's what they taught us at the time. It wasn't until sometime later. We're actually like a cult. You know, I'm like a cult. Jim said he was, like, the leader, and Tim was his, like, second in command. He said, we're trying to recruit. I said, I'm cool. You know, I don't want nothing like that. But they did mention hurting some people off and on.

[Thrasher Banks]

Only a couple people had the tattoo, apparently.

[Richard Jacobs]

And in order to get the tattoo.

[Thrasher Banks]

You had to take someone's soul.

[Richard Jacobs]

As in murder someone is what I was told. There's only one person other than Mick who knows what happened that night. So I did something I've been terrified to do for my entire life. I wrote Tim a letter and asked him what really happened on the night of Cindy Cozad's murder. I wrote, do you remember me? I was just a child when you were first arrested back in 1995. I've been debating writing this letter for over 10 years. I feel like I deserve some answers. I've read both yours and Mick's statements about what happened that night, and I want to know the truth. Did Mick shoot Cindy? To my surprise, he wrote back. But what he had to say only added another layer to my investigation. You want to know if Mick lied? Tim wrote, I'm not asking you to believe me over Mick. So ask him to explain what happened on his last case, when he went to prison for manslaughter. Then you can discover the truth for yourself, like I did. Unfortunately, I learned too late.

[Meredith Stedman]

Lords of Death is a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with Odyssey. Your host is Thrasher Banks. The show is written, produced and edited by Thrasher Banks with additional writing by Meredith Stedman and Dennis Cooper. Produced by Meredith Stedman and Dennis Cooper. Executive producers are Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay consulting producer and video production by George Miller Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan artwork by Byron McCoy. Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set with additional music by Thrasher Van Thanks Mixed by Cooper Skinner. Thank you to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at uta, Beck Media and Marketing and the Nord Group. Special thanks to Tori Ross, Caitlin Kabowski and Thrasher's mom Carrie. For more podcasts like Lords of Death, search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app or visit us at Tenderfoot tv. Thanks for listening.

[Richard Jacobs]

Thanks for listening to this episode of Lords of Death. The series is released weekly absolutely free but if you want to hear the whole season right now it's available ad free on Tenderfoot plus you'll find the link to subscribe in the show. Notes for this episode.