8 | Time Casts a Spell on You

Summary

Lords of Death: Episode 8 | Time Casts a Spell on You

Host: Thrasher Banks
Production: Tenderfoot TV & Audacy
Release Date: December 30, 2024

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Introduction

In Episode 8, titled "Time Casts a Spell on You," host Thrasher Banks delves deeper into the mysterious 1995 murder of Cindy Kozad in Dayton, Ohio. As Thrasher continues to sift through the contents of the old memory box—now a repository of forgotten VHS tapes, police reports, and faded letters—the narrative unfolds to reveal intricate connections between Mick McWhorter’s conviction and the enigmatic figure, Tim, whose influence permeates the lives of those involved.

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Mick McWhorter's Conviction and Appeal

The episode begins with the aftermath of Mick McWhorter’s guilty verdict for the murder of Cindy Kozad. Carrie, Mick’s mother, reflects on the impact of Mick’s conviction on their family:

Carrie [02:30]: "His murder conviction was overturned. And I don't know if it's true or not, but Chuck Smiley told me it was the first time in Dayton history that a murder conviction was overturned."

Mick’s legal team appealed the verdict, citing ineffective counsel during the initial trial. Three key claims were presented:

1. Chain of Custody Issue: Prevented a forensic expert from testifying that no blood was found on Mick’s clothing or in his car, contradicting Mick’s account that Cindy was shot while she was in the vehicle.

2. Psychological Assessment: A prison psychologist testified that Mick exhibited signs of antisocial disorder, which could indicate a disregard for human life.

3. Failure to Cross-Examine Carrie: The defense did not challenge Carrie’s testimony, which could have established her fear of Tim.

The appellate court found sufficient grounds to overturn the murder conviction, stating:

Appellate Court [04:45]: "While this evidence would yet permit the jury to find that McWhorter shot Kozad while her body lay on the ground, even that version raises doubts concerning his criminal liability for murder."

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Plea Deal and Sentencing

Despite Carrie’s urging to go to trial, Mick opted for a plea deal to reduce his sentence from life imprisonment to 10 to 25 years for involuntary manslaughter, believing it offered a chance for earlier release:

Mick [07:15]: "I took the deal."

Carrie expresses regret over this decision, feeling that Mick could have pursued a more favorable outcome by going to trial:

Carrie [08:26]: "Regrettably, I begged him to go to trial again... But he was so afraid he would be found guilty that he refused."

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Tim's Influence and Manipulation

Tim emerges as a central figure whose manipulative actions had profound effects on both Mick and Carrie. A pivotal letter from Tim reveals his ulterior motives and emotional manipulation:

Tim's Letter [10:35]: "I know you'll be glad to hear that stuff that Wade and Tom Lawson got Mick to say was the same thing they tried to get me to say. So don't believe it, because it's a lie."

Carrie and Mick uncover that Tim may have coerced Mick into participating in Cindy’s murder to protect himself, fearing for his family's safety:

Carrie [23:32]: "When you told me what he said about loving you so much that he would kill for you, do you remember that?"

Mick [26:04]: "Carrie, please understand that I was forced to shoot at the girl... Tim made it clear as to what would have happened if I did not cooperate with him."

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Emotional Toll and Family Dynamics

The episode poignantly explores the emotional devastation experienced by Carrie and Mick’s family. Carrie grapples with immense guilt over her role in the events leading to Cindy’s death:

Carrie [30:16]: "I struggle with the guilt I feel over Cindy's death... This will haunt me forever."

Mick, reflecting on his actions, seeks understanding and resolution:

Mick [37:53]: "If I could go back and redo those days, I definitely would. It would not involve Tim living with us..."

The strained relationship between Carrie and Mick highlights the long-term psychological impact of the crime and the ensuing legal battles.

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Reconnecting After Years

Years after the trials, Carrie reconnects with Mick, who is nearing the end of his sentence. Their reunion is bittersweet, marked by lingering fears and unresolved emotions:

Carrie [33:36]: "I want to have a conversation with him. Face to face."

Mick receives Carrie’s heartfelt letters, revealing his continued remorse and hope for redemption:

Mick's Letter [10:35]: "Stay Cool as always, Mick."

Their attempts to rebuild their relationship underscore the complexities of forgiveness and healing after traumatic events.

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Community and Lingering Threats

The narrative extends to the broader community affected by Tim’s actions. Cindy’s family, Tim's stepchildren, and others bear the scars of the tragedy:

Carrie [35:54]: "So many people."

The presence of memorials, like the dog park and shelter, serve as constant reminders of the lives lost and altered.

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Final Reflections and Unanswered Questions

As Mick's parole approaches in 2026, unanswered questions linger about the true extent of Tim’s influence and the possibility of uncovering further connections to other unsolved cases:

Mick [31:39]: "Tim's next parole board hearing is in November of 2025. I doubt he'll be released, but I plan on doing everything in my power to make sure he stays behind bars for the rest of his life."

Carrie’s enduring sense of loss and responsibility underscores the enduring impact of the crime on their lives.

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Conclusion

"Time Casts a Spell on You" is a deeply emotional exploration of guilt, fear, and the quest for truth. Through intimate conversations and the uncovering of long-buried secrets, Carrie and Mick navigate the complexities of their past, seeking closure and understanding in the shadow of tragedy. The episode poignantly illustrates how time can both heal and haunt, leaving indelible marks on those left behind.

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Notable Quotes

• Carrie [02:30]: "His murder conviction was overturned... the first time in Dayton history that a murder conviction was overturned."

• Mick [07:15]: "I took the deal."

• Tim's Letter [10:35]: "Don't believe it, because it's a lie."

• Carrie [23:32]: "When you told me what he said about loving you so much that he would kill for you, do you remember that?"

• Carrie [30:16]: "I've lived with so much guilt over her dying for so long."

• Carrie [37:53]: "I put him behind bars, but a lot of fear came with that, and it's still there."

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Note: This summary excludes non-content sections such as advertisements, promotional messages, and outro segments to focus solely on the narrative and key discussions of the episode.

Transcript

[Thrasher Banks]

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[Mick]

Hey, you sold that car yet? Yeah, sold it to Carvana.

[Thrasher Banks]

Oh, I thought you were selling to that guy.

[Carrie]

The guy who wanted to pay me.

[Mick]

In foreign currency, no interest over 36 months.

[Carrie]

Yeah, no.

[Mick]

Carvana gave me an offer in minutes.

[Carrie]

Picked it up and paid me on the spot. It was so convenient.

[Thrasher Banks]

Just like that.

[Mick]

Yep. No hassle.

[Carrie]

None. That is super convenient.

[Thrasher Banks]

Sell your car to Carvana and swap hassle for convenience. Pickup fees may apply.

[Mick]

Lords of Death is released weekly every Monday and brought to you absolutely free. But if you want an exclusive ad free binge. Sign up for Tenderfoot Plus. Check out the show notes for the link to subscribe.

[Thrasher Banks]

You're listening to Lords of Death, a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with Odyssey. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals participating in the podcast. This podcast also contains subject matter which may not be suitable for everyone, including themes of murder and sexual violence. Listener discretion is advised.

[Carrie]

A verdict in the trial of a murder suspect the jury came back with a guilty verdict against James McWhirter early Saturday morning. McWhorter is the second person to go on trial in the robbery murder of suspected Prostitute Cindy Kozad McWhorter's lawyer says his client was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Mick]

With Mick's guilty verdict, that chapter of our life together came to an end. As the years went by and we moved on with our lives, the box my mom gave me was sit collecting dust in my grandma's basement. Now that I sit here poring over the documents in the box, I still wonder. Was Mick telling the full truth? Or did he deceive all of us and not just my family, but his attorney, Isabel, the jury at his trial, and even Tim's attorney, Carl. It seems like just about everyone outside of law enforcement felt that Mick acted out of fear that night. I'm at the bottom of the box now. I've gone through nearly every scrap, every letter, every document. What's left is a few items that shed light on what really happened on the night of Cindy Kozad's murder. From Tenderfoot tv, I'm Thatcher Banks. This is Lords of Death. With Mick's conviction for the murder of Cindy Kozad, there was a real chance he would spend the rest of his life behind bars. But it turned out that Mick and his defense team had a plan.

[Carrie]

Mick actually ended up appealing his guilty conviction. His first trial, he was found guilty of murder. He appealed that with the assistance of his attorney.

[Mick]

Nick filed an appeal that argued his conviction should be overturned in favor of a new trial due to ineffective counsel from his defense. They laid out three separate claims to prove that Mick's defense failed to properly represent him in court. First, there was a chain of custody issue with a witness that prevented a forensic expert from testifying that none of Cindy Kozad's blood was found on Mick's clothing. Further, their testimony would have verified that there was no blood found in my mom's car. This would have disproved the version of the story that Mick told my mom the night of the murder. That Cindy was shot while still in the vehicle. The second claim involved a rebuttal witness that was called by the state. He was a prison psychologist who conducted an assessment on Mick while he was in prison for murdering his uncle. The psychologist testified that Mick showed signs typical of someone with antisocial disorder. During cross examination, Mick's attorney, Chuck Smiley, pursued a line of questioning that led the psychologist to say that people with this personality disorder can exhibit at times a disregard for human life. The last claim was that by deciding not to cross examine my mom, Carrie, during her testimony for the State, the defense failed to establish that she feared Tim in The aftermath of the murder. The appellate court found that the first two claims taken together undermined confidence in the outcome of the trial. They added that the testimony of a witness called by the state that heard the gunshots that night was consistent with Mick's account of the murder. This, according to the appellate court, supported a verdict of innocence on the murder charge. The court stated that, quote, while this evidence would yet permit the jury to find that McWhorter shot Kozad while her body lay on the ground, even that version raises doubts concerning his criminal liability for murder. End quote.

[Carrie]

His murder conviction was overturned. And I don't know if it's true or not, but Chuck Smiley told me it was the first time in Dayton history that a murder conviction was overturned, so it was overturned, stating that his attorney was less than adequate for allowing some things in the trial that he should have objected to. So he won a new trial and he had to decide whether he wanted a jury trial or a three judge panel. I tried to convince him to go with a jury trial because I felt like he had a better chance. But he chose a three judge panel.

[Mick]

Before the trial got underway, Mick's attorney, Dennis Adkins proposed a deal to drop the murder charge for a straight 10 year sentence. The prosecutor declined and instead made a counteroffer. If Mick would plead guilty to involuntary manslaughter, which would carry a sentence of 10 to 15 years, the prosecutor's office wouldn't oppose his release when he was eligible for parole in eight years, plus the other charges would run concurrently, reducing his overall sentence. Mick's attorney, Dennis seemed confident that he would be released at his second parole hearing in about 10 years. He was more or less on their side telling me, take this deal or we can go back and go, you know, deal 31 in life again. So I had to choose between the lesser two evils. I was back to square one. I said, okay. I knew I was going through the whole 31. If I did, I knew it, you know, he tried to tell me I was going to go see the parole board and get out in a year or two and all that. I knew better. But still it's burying 31 to life. So now six years I get out where before I wouldn't have, you know what I mean? So I took the deal.

[Carrie]

Regrettably, I begged him to go to trial again. I begged him. I told him that I read in a newspaper article evidence that was available in the first trial would not be available in a new trial. And when I read that, I told Mick, go To trial. Go to trial. But he was so afraid he would be found guilty that he refused.

[Mick]

He said he just didn't want to put you through it again.

[Carrie]

But I begged him to do it. I begged him to go to trial.

[Mick]

Maybe he didn't want to go through it again.

[Carrie]

I bet now he wishes he would have at least tried. I mean, the outcome could have been better, but it wouldn't have been any worse.

[Mick]

Every defense attorney I've talked to says, go to trial. Roll the dice. The plea deals are never.

[Carrie]

I'll never understand why he did that unless he was so ashamed of what he had done that he felt like he deserved to be punished. I don't know.

[Mick]

Well, his attorney said that he'd be out in 10 years.

[Carrie]

They lied.

[Mick]

Mick's plea sentencing took place on March 12, 1998. The official sentence was 10 to 25 years, plus three years for the firearm specification. That charge would then run concurrent with his other charges for tampering with evidence and weapons under disability. Part of the plea agreement was that Mick was required to admit he shot Cindy, which he protested at first, but eventually gave in and admitted to it. But my mom tells me that Mick still had one last hope of escaping a lengthy prison sentence. And it would come from Tim, of all people.

[Carrie]

There was a point when Tim said he would clear Mick, but I don't think the prosecutors were going to allow that to happen. Anyway. They were presented with a letter that Tim wrote telling me that he had found God in prison. I don't really believe that part, but that Mick had absolutely nothing to do with the murder. That it was all him.

[Mick]

The letter reads. Carrie, I got your letter. Tim wrote. I've just been trying to figure out if I should tell you or not. But I've also been reading the Bible and studying it, and it says I should tell you the truth. I'm not going to keep in touch with you. And I know you'll be glad to hear that that stuff that Wade and Tom Lawson got Mick to say was the same thing they tried to get me to say. So don't believe it, because it's a lie. Mick didn't do any of the stuff I said he did. I only said it because I wanted to have you. And if I couldn't, then I was going to take him down with me. So I lied about it. Well, you don't need to write me back. If I hadn't been saved by Jesus Christ, you wouldn't know. Now, in this letter, Tim implied that he was in love with My mom, that he wanted her all to himself. And if he couldn't have her, neither could Mick. This was news to me. But could this really have been what motivated Tim, or was he just trying to manipulate my mom?

[Carrie]

I think Tim had such a, you know, a bad life, and I don't know if he ever really knew true happiness. And maybe there was jealousy between what Mick and I had. Yeah, he sabotaged it for sure. Which is like one of the questions that I asked him when I went to see him when he first got arrested, you know, why? Why would you do this to us? And I think that maybe part of Tim longed for what I'm going to refer to as a normal life. And I think that when he would start to feel that normalcy of, like, a family, it was good for him. And then he felt like he had people that cared about him and people that he cared about, but that other side of him was always there and would never allow that to come full circle.

[Mick]

In the end, the letter from Tim wasn't enough to help Mick. For a while, my mom didn't know how to move forward. And maintaining a relationship with Mick while he was incarcerated was becoming a burden.

[Carrie]

For privacy reasons, I had gotten a P.O. box and like every day, you know, getting multiple letters from Mick. He would send letters to me, letters to the kids, and like, he would have prison inmates that knew how to draw, like draw cartoon characters on the envelopes for the kids. It was at times overwhelming.

[Mick]

Life had to go on, obviously. How did you. How did you do that?

[Carrie]

It was not easy. It was not easy at all because I had made all sorts of promises to Mick that after several years I knew I was not going to be able to keep. I had two young kids. I needed a life. I couldn't just, you know, run to the prison every other weekend and visit him and constantly have thousand dollar phone bills.

[Mick]

Eventually, my mom decided she was ready to start dating again. She wanted a stable partner to help raise me and my sister. That's when she met Ben.

[Carrie]

The first date, my sister was supposed to watch my children, and for whatever reason, she ended up backing out. So I called him to tell him that I needed to reschedule the date. And he said, why? So I told him I was having issues with a babysitter and he said, just bring the kids with you. So we met him in a movie theater. We saw the movie Fly Away Home.

[Mick]

The way my mom describes it is that me and my sister chose Ben for her because we both connected with him right away. We Even have the same birthday, which we'd end up celebrating together over the next 15 years. There was still one problem, though.

[Carrie]

It was awkward. You know, like, you're trying to start a new relationship with someone and you have this hanging over your head. But he was, like, a very adventurous person. So he was kind of like, into the whole story. He wanted to know, like, all the details and everything about what had happened and what we had been through. And probably out of everyone that I've dated since then, he was probably the person who, like, understood it the most.

[Mick]

As we all got closer with Ben over the next few months, my mom knew she had to make a difficult decision regarding Mick.

[Carrie]

I couldn't start a new relationship and still hold onto him. So I had to find a way to let go. Even after everything that we went through, everything that the situation put me and my kids through, I still loved him. And it was hard to let it go. So I drove to Lucasville one last time to tell him goodbye. That I had met someone. And even though I had promised that I would always be there, that I couldn't make good on that promise. I want love you I don't want.

[Mick]

You want to lose you I.

[Carrie]

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[Mick]

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[Carrie]

The current US total new cumulative registrations for all vehicles identified as SUVs.

[Mick]

Horsepower and torque ratings based on premium.

[Carrie]

Fuel per SAEJ 1349 standard. Your results may vary.

[Mick]

After my mom's last visit with Mick, we cut off contact with him and tried to move on with our lives. But as I got older, I couldn't stop thinking about Mick and wondering how he was doing. One day when I was in middle school, I found all of his belongings in our shed. My mom had kept them out there. His clothes, his favorite leather jacket, and his CD collection, which was mostly thrash metal from the 1980s. Through my newfound obsession with Slayer and early Metallica, I started to feel a connection with Mick. In study hall, I'd write him letters that I had no intention of sending, but it helped me cope with the situation. It seemed like no matter how hard I tried to forget about Mick, there was always a reminder. On the first day of high school, I was sitting in music theory class and heard someone singing behind me. My best friend at the time, Dustin, and I were starting a band together, so we were interested in whoever this singer was. It turned out it was Keir Smiley, Mick's attorney son, that I went to kindergarten with. So we asked him to join our band called Time Wasted. It wasn't until I moved out of my mom's house to go to college that I would actually write to Mick. At that point, my mom and Ben had split up and Mick hadn't heard from us in close to 15 years. A couple weeks later, there was a letter waiting for me. In his familiar cursive handwriting. It read, I got your letter and pictures last night. I was so happy to hear from you. The pictures of you, Kara and Carrie, put a huge smile on my face. Carrie did an outstanding job raising you two, which really isn't a surprise. You turned out just the way I always thought you would. Smart and handsome. Although you're a little taller than I remember. I'm glad you're a Slayer fan. They're my favorite band in the world. The parole board is just too unpredictable. I don't believe they'll ever parole me. It is what it is. My max out date is 2026 though, so they can't keep me forever. It's a rotten system, ain't it? I never stopped thinking about you. Even after I lost contact with your mom. I always thought that I would never see you again. That was just awful. You'll always be Bubs to me. Stay Cool as always, Mick. Mick sounded pretty defeated about the parole board and his chances of getting his sentence lessened. But all in all, he sounded like the Mick I remembered when I sent this letter. My mom also included a letter of her own. Initially, she was on the fence about it, but I think seeing how much I wanted to connect with Mick helped her realize it was something she wanted, too. Carrie, I got your letter the same day you sent it. Sorry it took me so long to answer. I got the pictures of everyone. I have to admit, it brought a few tears. You've done an awesome job raising them. They really are beautiful. I always wondered how everyone was doing. Being locked up all this time has made me wonder how I haven't lost my mind yet. I agree it's going to be weird calling you Grandma, but you'll get used to it after a while. I still have dreams about you. Sometimes we're traveling, other times just walking together. And it feels real. I'm happy that you found happiness, Carrie. I'd rather be good friends than no friends at all. You take care, Mick. Three years after re establishing contact with Mickey, I decided that I was ready to visit him in prison. He was at Madison Correctional in London, Ohio, at the time. As I got through security and told the guard who I was there to see, he was surprised and told me that Mick never had visitors. It turned out I was the first person to visit him since the day my mom cut ties with him 17 years earlier. It was awkward at first, but after we warmed up, he seemed just like the Mick I remembered as a kid. That was back in 2015, and at that point I'd already started researching everything I'd found in the box. Back then, I still believed that he didn't shoot Cindy. It wasn't until a few years later, while digging through the box, that I'd learned that wasn't true. In the box, there's hundreds of letters, and I'd eventually read through all of them. That's how I found this letter Mick wrote my mom from jail in August of 1995. So here's a letter he wrote you in August of 95. He said, Kerry, I'm going to tell you a little secret I'm ashamed to admit, but I was scared of Tim. I have been scared of Tim for about two years. He's not the same Tim I knew before he moved in with us. I guess it was the night he rolled us in Cambridge that started me to look at Tim differently. Ever since then, I wondered what really made him tick. I wanted to tell you how Tim scared me. But I'm ashamed and embarrassed to admit this to you in person. I'd be afraid you wouldn't feel safe around me anymore. It's not his size. We know that. It's his mental ability that scared me. I knew he was capable of hurting someone or killing, but I never thought he would turn on us. All I know is I felt uneasy with him. I really feared him at times. I guess my guard went to red alert. When you told me what he said about loving you so much that he would kill for you, do you remember that?

[Carrie]

That just made my heart race as soon as you said those words. I do remember.

[Mick]

What's the story there?

[Carrie]

Well, Tim went through this thing where he thought he was in love with me. And it caused all kinds of problems because I did not have any feelings like that toward Tim. But Tim did say that. That he would kill for me. I didn't need him to kill for me. Who would I need Tim to kill for me?

[Mick]

Is that what happened to Cindy?

[Carrie]

What do you mean?

[Mick]

To get leverage over Mickey. Blackmail, forcing him to participate.

[Carrie]

Well, if that's what he was trying to do, he failed miserably. Unless he had it in his head that he could all, you know, pin it all on Mick so that I would think Tim was completely innocent. You know what I mean? Because Tim knew the kind of person I was, and I couldn't even, like, stand looking at him when he killed a rabbit. Now, how does. How would he think I would look at him when he killed a human?

[Mick]

So Mick's talking about he didn't know how to tell you he was afraid of Tim. Do you think that this is the truth, or is it?

[Carrie]

No, that's the truth. That's the truth. When. You know, we've done a lot of recording for the podcast, and when I said that I could tell Mick was afraid, I meant that, like, Mick was afraid. Now, I don't know when that fear started. You know what I mean? But that night, Mick was afraid. He was so afraid that he was making me think that I needed to be afraid of him when he was really trying to protect me. And he knew exactly how dangerous Tim was.

[Mick]

So he goes on. When he threatened to kill you and the kids, I knew he was for real. So were you aware of those threats?

[Carrie]

Yes. He was afraid something was gonna happen. It's part of the reason why you and your sister weren't there anymore. I didn't want you in the house for my own reasons. Mick didn't want you in the house for his reasons. And those reasons were very valid reasons to not want you guys there. It was clear that Mick was afraid of Tim. And I think that might be part of the reason why they never left for Cambridge. I don't think that Mick wanted to be alone with Tim.

[Mick]

I want to hop back to this letter for a minute. We left off, he threatened to kill you and the kids. I knew he was for real. I did whatever it took to keep us alive. Carrie, please understand that I was forced to shoot at the girl. I know she was already dead. I really don't think I hit the girl anyway, but I had to. Sure, I could have pulled the gun on Tim, but I was too scared to. I don't think killing Tim would have helped Cindy anyway. She was already dead. Think that's the truth?

[Carrie]

Yes.

[Mick]

You really do?

[Carrie]

Why would he write that?

[Mick]

Said so I took a shot at her while she was on the floor. I'm positive I missed, though. Just as long as Tim saw I shot at Cindy, I figured he would chill. He did, too. He said he had to make sure I would not say anything. He brought up the fact that I had a prior murder charge on my record and said if he went, I was going right behind him. I may not look too good for shooting at the girl, but Tim made it clear as to what would have happened if I did not cooperate with him. I never in my life felt so helpless and defeated and scared. My uncle never even made me feel that way. Tim sure did, though. Because he threatened to harm you and the kids is why I was so scared. I think that this. I think this is the truth.

[Carrie]

I've gone back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. Did Mick Shooter, didn't he shoot her? Did he? Didn't he? Over and over again. And I think my young, naive self believed that he didn't because there was no way he could do that. The older I have gotten, the less naive I am, the wiser I am. And Tammy's words ring in my head all of the time. Mick sacrificed himself to save us. He did what he had to do so that he felt like we were safe. That's the only way it makes sense to me. Knowing Mick the way that we knew Mick.

[Mick]

So if Tim was sitting where I'm sitting right now, what would you say to him?

[Carrie]

I. I don't know. I don't know. He destroyed my life for a long time. Took away things I loved. Took away Mick. He's a sick man. I don't know that I Would say anything to him. I don't know that he even deserves words. I might thank him for not killing me that night, because he easily could have. He easily could have taken me away from my kids and my family. And, you know, he didn't just, like, destroy part of my life. Cindy was a human. Cindy had a family. And so many times I've wished that I could talk to her family and tell them how sorry I am for the choices that I made that night. I wasn't with them. I didn't have anything to do with what happened to her other than I gave in and I gave them my keys. And I just. I want them to know that I'm sorry I did that. I have lived with so much guilt over her dying for so long, almost 30 years. And I want her family to know that I'm sorry. I'm sorry that my decision to give them the keys took Cindy away from them.

[Mick]

I mean, I understand why you feel that way, but it's not. It's not your fault.

[Carrie]

So many people say it's not my fault, and I know that, but it does not take that guilt away. I've lived with it for so long. It's so heavy, but it does not take that guilt away. I've tried to convince myself you had nothing to do with it. You had nothing to do with it. And so many people say that to me. But unless you've walked in my shoes and been the person that said, go ahead, take my keys, and then this happens, then you will never understand how I feel. This will haunt me forever. I struggle with the guilt I feel over Cindy's death. More than losing Mick, losing the man that I was so in love with. The fact that Cindy died weighs way heavier on me than losing Mick.

[Mick]

Do you know what Elsie had something to do with, though? Putting this man behind bars.

[Carrie]

Yeah. And I hope he stays there, because I don't care how old he gets, if that man ever gets out, I'll still be afraid of him. Yeah, I put him behind bars, but a lot of fear came with that, and it's still there.

[Mick]

I think I inherited that fear from you.

[Carrie]

I still have nightmares that I'm found that somebody comes to get me. I still have those nightmares. They're never going to go away.

[Mick]

Tim's next parole board hearing is in November of 2025. I doubt he'll be released, but I plan on doing everything in my power to make sure he stays behind bars for the rest of his life. If anyone could hear what I'm saying.

[Thrasher Banks]

Please help us.

[Mick]

We were attacked by some kind of animal. From the director of the Invisible man.

[Carrie]

And Blumhouse, producers of the Black Phone. My husband was infected. What is happening to me?

[Mick]

Daddy, is that you? Run.

[Carrie]

Hurry.

[Mick]

Mommy, he's coming. Don't you lay a hand on her. Directed by leigh Whannell under 17 out of middle without parent only in theaters January 17th.

[Thrasher Banks]

This call is originating from an Ohio.

[Carrie]

Correctional facility and may be recorded and monitored. Yes, he was.

[Mick]

Mick is still incarcerated for his role in the death of Cindy Kozado. At his last parole board hearing in 2019, the board noted that, quote, McWhorter has been assessed as having an elevated risk for reoffending the case, aggravated by case specific factors of violence, brutality and victimization. McWhorter lacks the family and community support along with a viable and supportive release plan. The aggravating factors in this case leave the board to conclude that release would not further the interest of justice. The board does not consider the inmate suitable for release at this time. His max out date is coming up soon, though. He'll be released from prison in 2026 after serving 31 years behind bars. So what happens when he gets out?

[Carrie]

I'm hoping to be the one to pick him up from prison.

[Mick]

That could be pretty soon.

[Carrie]

I hope that it is. I was trying to keep it together, but I just have this image in my head of what it would be like to see him after all of these years and to feel him give me a hug. The one thing that I was denied the day that he was found guilty was a hug. The bailiff told the officer that was in the room, just let him have a hug. And the officer was like, no, I can't do that. And I've waited a long time to get that hug. I can sit here right now and honestly say it's what I feel deep in my soul, that we were supposed to be together. This was not supposed to happen. 25 years right now has passed, and it's like time stopped in our relationship. When he went to prison, time stopped. He's not that same person that he was 25 years ago. I'm not the same person I was 25 years ago. Do I still love him? Absolutely. He will always have a place in my heart. Always. That will never change. It will never, ever change. But I know I could not ever have a healthy relationship with him again. He's not who he was. I'm not who I was. But I would love to see his face. I would like to have a conversation with him. Face to face. He's been in prison for a long time. I mean, think about everything that's happened in your life from 1995 till now. You were just a little boy. Now you're a man. So much time has passed. Time where we've had our freedom to do whatever we wanted to do or not do, where for these 25 years, he's been locked up.

[Mick]

You know, I think about it, and it's like, there's not just us. I mean, there's Cindy's family. There's everybody that Tim impacted when he still lived in Guernsey County. Any other victims?

[Carrie]

So many people.

[Mick]

His step kids with Pam. Cindy lost her life. So there's just a big impact from one person. It's kind of a lot to wrap your head around.

[Carrie]

It is when you think about every life that was changed because of one person. So many lives. My life, your life, your sister's life, Cindy's life, her family's life, her daughter's life. But I think more about Cindy's family than any other person that has been impacted by Tim. I think in her family. I mean, I really just, like, want them to know that I'm sorry. There's nothing I can ever say. There's nothing. I've tried to put myself in their shoes. And if I were them, I would hate me because I enabled this to happen. I mean, I'm glad that justice was served. It doesn't bring her back, though. You know, I used to go to Triangle park on the 5th of every month. I used to go there on the 5th of every single month and pay my respects. After I don't even know how long, I quit doing it. And sometimes I still feel bad because I don't go back there. But in the real world, it's just not a safe thing for me to do anymore. In that area.

[Mick]

There's a dog park now.

[Carrie]

Is it. Is the shelter gone?

[Mick]

No, it's like this main part of it.

[Carrie]

Are you kidding me?

[Mick]

No.

[Carrie]

I always wish they would tear that shelter down. But then again, it's kind of like a memorial in a way.

[Mick]

I wanted to continue this tradition, so I went to the shelter and left flowers for Cindy. I took a picture of them and sent it to her sister. A few days later, she sent me an edited version back. It had a picture of Cindy with angel wings surrounded by light, looking through the window of the shelter at the flowers.

[Carrie]

I'll never forget, like, seeing her face for the first time was when you sent me that picture. I had never seen Cindy's Face. And it was nice to put a face with the name and all the feelings that I have that revolve around that person. It was painful losing Mick. It was painful going through two murder trials. But I think the majority of my pain comes from knowing that Cindy was killed. For what? Why did she have to die? She. She didn't do anything. You know what I mean? There's a lot of pain that I carry knowing how she died. I'm sure I owe you and your sister both apologies for putting you guys through that. And however you felt while I was going through what I was going through, I tried to still be a good mom and not let it affect our lives too much, but there was really no way around it. I did the best that I could and let you know that you're loved. And, like, you and your sister, even to this day, are like, the most important people in my life. You guys saved me more than you'll ever know. You really did. And I've said it many times. If it wasn't for you and your sister, you know, I probably still wouldn't be here. And I mean that. I really mean it. But I'm sorry that you guys went through what you went through over choices that I made. If I could go back and. And redo those days, I definitely would. It would not involve Tim living with us, and I don't even know that it would involve Mick living with us if I could go back and change everything.

[Mick]

Well, I don't hold anything against you at all, because you showed me that you don't have to be perfect, that if you get knocked down, you can get back up. You showed me that that was possible no matter how bad things got. Made me stronger.

[Carrie]

It made all of us stronger. You can't go through that and not come out stronger on the other side.

[Mick]

Okay, so here's a question I have for you. How should I end the podcast? How does it end in your mind?

[Carrie]

The ending is we survived and we grew, and we're productive members of society, and we're doing well, and I have two grandchildren, and you have Caitlin, and, you know, it ends with us doing well. How else can it end?

[Mick]

Isn't real life so boring?

[Carrie]

Sometimes it is. But let's think about 1995 for a second. Not just what happened with, you know, Cindy dying and all of that, but let's think about how our lives changed. As hard as it is and as painful as it is and as much fear as I still have, we overcame what a lot of people couldn't overcome. We pushed on and doing okay.

[Thrasher Banks]

Lords of Death is a production of Tenderfoot TV in a association with Odyssey. Your host is Thrasher Banks. The show is written, produced and edited by Thrasher Banks with additional writing by Meredith Stedman and Dennis Cooper. Produced by Meredith Stedman and Dennis Cooper. Executive producers are Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay. Consulting producer and video production by George Miller. Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan. Artwork by Byron McCoy. Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set with additional music by Thrasher Banks. This episode features the original song Leave this Behind by Speaking Sons, mixed by Cooper Skinner. Thank you to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at uta, Beck Media and Marketing and the Nord Group. Special thanks to Tori Ross, Caitlin Kaboski and Thrasher's mom Carrie. For more podcasts like Lords of Death, search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app or visit us@Tenderfoot TV. Thanks for listening.

[Mick]

Thanks for listening to this episode of Lords of Death. This series is released weekly absolutely free, but if you want an exclusive ad free binge, sign up for Tenderfoot Plus. Check out the show notes for the link to subscribe. Hey guys, it's Payne Lindsay here. I want to take a moment to say thank you for listening to this show or any Tenderfoot show. Our team as a whole puts a lot of effort into these podcasts and it's all worth it when we can see the tangible real impact the podcast can have on these cases. Tenderfoot is an independent production company and we really appreciate all Tenderfoot plus members who pay for ad free listening and exclusive bonus content. Your support truly helps us take on these important stories and we couldn't do it without you. If you too would like to support, you'll get over 400 episodes ad free, exclusive content and bonuses by subscribing to Tenderfoot plus for just $4.99 a month month. And if you want the best deal, you can sign up for the annual membership and get 40% off, which is basically five months free. If you go and subscribe now, you can learn more at tenderfootplus. Com. Thank you for listening and supporting our work at Tenderfoot tv.