Andrew Wilson on the Infiltration of the Church: Feminism, NGOs and the Battle for Christianity!

Summary

Podcast Summary: Louder with Crowder
Episode: Andrew Wilson on the Infiltration of the Church: Feminism, NGOs and the Battle for Christianity!
Release Date: May 30, 2025

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Introduction: Changing Dynamics in American Churches (00:00 - 02:35)

The episode opens with Gerald welcoming listeners to the Friday Show, emphasizing the diverse range of topics typically covered, from current events to behind-the-scenes discussions. Today’s focus is on the evolving landscape within American churches, particularly the increasing dominance of women in congregations across various denominations. Gerald highlights recent Pew studies showing that women predominantly make up the majority in Catholic, Protestant (mainline and black Protestant) churches. He underscores the need for more men to take leadership roles in faith communities to balance this gender disparity and preserve traditional leadership structures.

Guest Introduction: Andrew Wilson and the Orthodox Perspective (02:36 - 03:51)

Andrew Wilson joins the conversation, representing the Orthodox Christian viewpoint. Gerald introduces Wilson’s platform, "The Crucible," available on YouTube and Rumble, where Wilson discusses theological and cultural issues. Wilson humorously mentions donning “battle armor” for potential debates, setting a tone for the rigorous discussions ahead.

The Role of Feminism and NGOs in Churches (04:35 - 07:31)

Gerald and Wilson delve into the core topic: the influence of feminism and non-governmental organizations (NGOs) in American churches. Wilson attributes the growing majority of women in certain denominations to strategic infiltration by NGOs and feminist movements. He explains how programs like clergy training, ostensibly designed to prepare church leaders for modern challenges, actually erode traditional ecclesiastical structures, making churches more receptive to progressive ideas over time.

Notable Quote:
Andrew Wilson (05:57): "NGOs allocate large portions of their budget towards the infiltration of various churches around the country."

Wilson further argues that women see leadership positions within churches as avenues for power and social status, encouraging more women to seek these roles, often at the expense of male leadership.

Reputation and “Sewing Circle Christians” (06:57 - 10:33)

Wilson introduces the concept of “sewing circle Christians”—predominantly women who join churches seeking a non-judgmental community to rebuild their reputations after past transgressions. He criticizes this approach, suggesting that genuine Christian ethics require humility and repentance rather than leveraging faith for social standing.

Notable Quote:
Andrew Wilson (06:57): "I call these types of women sewing circle Christians. This is one of the biggest problems in Protestant churches."

Gerald concurs, emphasizing that Christianity involves taking responsibility for one’s actions and not merely acquiring a new reputation.

Gender Differences in Perceptions of Promiscuity (10:33 - 12:04)

The discussion shifts to how promiscuity is judged differently between men and women within churches. Wilson points out that women often harshly judge men’s lack of sexual experience, labeling them as "creepy," while male promiscuity is less scrutinized and sometimes even seen as a status symbol.

Notable Quote:
Andrew Wilson (11:12): "What’s wrong with you?"

Gerald agrees, noting that societal and historical factors, like paternity assurance, contribute to these differing standards.

Historical and Theological Debates: Mary’s Virginity and Church Authority (12:04 - 20:43)

Gerald and Wilson engage in a theological debate about the perpetual virginity of Mary, highlighting differences between Orthodox and Protestant interpretations. Wilson defends the Orthodox stance, asserting that scriptural evidence supports Mary’s perpetual virginity, while Gerald challenges this view, pointing out biblical references to Jesus’ siblings.

Notable Quote:
Andrew Wilson (16:04): "The Bible is actually pretty clear that Mary was a perpetual virgin."

The conversation extends to the authority and hierarchy within the Orthodox and Protestant churches, with Wilson arguing that the lack of normative authority in Protestantism leads to fragmented interpretations and practices.

Orthodoxy vs. Protestantism: Authority and Tradition (20:43 - 38:46)

Wilson critiques Protestantism for its lack of a centralized authority, leading to numerous sects and inconsistent theological interpretations. He contrasts this with the Orthodox Church’s structured hierarchy and tradition, which he believes preserves doctrinal purity and theological consistency.

Notable Quote:
Andrew Wilson (24:31): "All of church history, until the reformers came along, Mary was indeed considered perpetual virgin."

Gerald reflects on the historical actions of the Catholic Church, acknowledging its flaws but also recognizing its longstanding influence and structure. The debate touches on issues like the Inquisition, hierarchical abuses, and the necessity of maintaining tradition to prevent doctrinal deviations.

Salvation, Sins of Omission, and Theosis (38:46 - 56:09)

The dialogue shifts to soteriology—the study of salvation. Wilson explains the Orthodox concept of theosis, a lifelong process of becoming more like Christ, contrasting it with the Protestant notion of "sola fide" (faith alone). He argues that salvation involves both faith and works, emphasizing that Christians must actively engage in righteous actions to attain salvation.

Notable Quote:
Andrew Wilson (47:17): "Salvation is a lifetime process called theosis."

Gerald and Wilson discuss the possibility of losing salvation, with Wilson rejecting the "once saved, always saved" doctrine as illogical, while Gerald supports the idea that salvation can be forfeited through deliberate renunciation of faith.

Modern Church Practices and Legalism (56:09 - 65:19)

Gerald criticizes contemporary Protestant practices, such as altar calls and superficial conversions, where individuals may declare faith without committing to the transformative aspects of Christianity. Wilson agrees, highlighting the dangers of legalism and the importance of adhering to traditional teachings to avoid fragmented and counterproductive practices.

Notable Quote:
Gerald (54:46): "We're talking like an actual deep-rooted belief."

Wilson underscores the necessity of logical and theological rigor in understanding and practicing faith, discouraging emotional and superficial engagements with Christianity.

Debating Ethics and Logic in Christianity (65:19 - 68:51)

The conversation transitions to the role of logic in theological debates. Wilson advocates for employing classical logic to dismantle contradictory beliefs and ethical standards within Christianity, arguing that it helps identify and correct flawed worldviews.

Notable Quote:
Andrew Wilson (66:14): "A lot of people like to do that. They like to defer before they answer for it first."

Gerald encourages self-examination and critical evaluation of one’s beliefs to align more closely with Christian teachings, emphasizing the importance of honest introspection over rigid adherence to man-made structures.

Conclusion: The Ongoing Battle for Christian Truth (68:51 - 69:32)

As the episode wraps up, Gerald and Wilson reflect on the challenges of maintaining theological integrity amidst modern influences. They express mutual respect despite their disagreements, emphasizing the shared goal of striving for authentic Christian living and defending orthodox beliefs.

Notable Quote:
Andrew Wilson (69:10): "This fight is our fight. It's not for you. We're way too good for you."

Gerald humorously hints at a potential part two, signaling ongoing discussions about Christianity’s role in broader societal structures, such as its influence on the founding of the United States.

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Key Takeaways

• Gender Dynamics: Increasing female dominance in church congregations raises concerns about leadership balance and adherence to traditional gender roles in faith communities.

• Influence of Feminism and NGOs: Strategic efforts by feminist movements and NGOs are perceived to influence and reshape church doctrines and practices, often diluting traditional values.

• Theological Debates: Fundamental differences exist between Orthodox and Protestant views on issues like Mary’s perpetual virginity, authority, and the process of salvation.

• Salvation and Ethics: The Orthodox perspective emphasizes a combination of faith and works (theosis), rejecting the simplistic "faith alone" doctrine and acknowledging the possibility of losing salvation through conscious renunciation.

• Church Authority and Tradition: A centralized normative authority, as seen in Orthodox Christianity, is argued to be essential for maintaining doctrinal purity and preventing fragmentation seen in Protestantism.

• Role of Logic in Faith: Employing classical logic in theological discussions is advocated as a means to uncover and rectify contradictory or superficial beliefs, promoting a more rigorous and authentic Christian faith.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Andrew Wilson (05:57): "NGOs allocate large portions of their budget towards the infiltration of various churches around the country."

• Andrew Wilson (06:57): "I call these types of women sewing circle Christians. This is one of the biggest problems in Protestant churches."

• Andrew Wilson (11:12): "What’s wrong with you?"

• Andrew Wilson (16:04): "The Bible is actually pretty clear that Mary was a perpetual virgin."

• Andrew Wilson (24:31): "All of church history, until the reformers came along, Mary was indeed considered perpetual virgin."

• Andrew Wilson (47:17): "Salvation is a lifetime process called theosis."

• Andrew Wilson (56:14): "A lot of people like to do that. They like to defer before they answer for it first."

• Andrew Wilson (69:10): "This fight is our fight. It's not for you. We're way too good for you."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Louder with Crowder delves deep into the intersection of feminism, NGOs, and theological shifts within American Christianity. Through a robust debate between Gerald and Andrew Wilson, listeners gain insight into the perceived challenges facing traditional churches, the role of gender dynamics in faith communities, and the enduring struggle to maintain doctrinal purity amidst modern societal influences. The conversation underscores the importance of balanced leadership, theological rigor, and the ongoing effort to align contemporary practices with foundational Christian teachings.

Transcript

[Gerald]

Welcome to the Friday Show. Thank you very much for joining us today. Fridays sometimes are a bit of a grab bag. We have episodes where we talk about the current events that are going on. Sometimes there's so much in the news, either with India, Pakistan or Russia, Ukraine or something else where we're going to dive into that. Sometimes we do the behind the scenes, but other times we have special guests and we get to talk about some subjects that are near and dear to me and maybe things that you haven't heard about, haven't talked about, but are pretty interesting. So today we get to do that. We get to talk a little bit about some trends within the church and some of the movement that we're seeing. And frankly, I'm kind of glad that we're having this conversation because it's necessary and it's been kind of long overdue. The church in America is definitely changing, and a lot of times that change is for the positive and results in really, really good movements in the church. And sometimes that change actually pushes things in a direction that we don't necessarily want them to go. And I'll be a little bit more clear once we jump into the subject here, but one of the trends that I have noticed is women kind of making up the majority of the congregations in certain kind of denominations, right? So in the Catholic church, that's true, according to a recent Pew study, mostly dominated by women. Definitely in the Protestant church, that's true in the mainland Protestant church. Also in the black Protestant church, it's very true. Makes up a very significant majority of the church. And there are a couple of exceptions to this rule. And one of the reasons that I want to talk about that is because men do need to take more of a leadership role when it comes to faith. We need to make sure that we're not allowing churches to just not necessarily just be run by women. But we don't want women to have to take this role that God has given to men to kind of be the leaders in faith. And we need more men to. To be involved in church and to be going to church and to be leading in church. And that's a very, very important topic. So the two groups, not really in Christianity, one of them is. One of them kind of is Christian adjacent. The Mormons. I'm sorry, guys. You understand we have some issues, right? So predominantly male. And I think I understand the recruiting brochure there is a little different. You know, sometimes not everybody does the polygamy thing. Maybe not anybody anymore. But, you know, that's kind of a thing that's a good selling point. And then the Orthodox Church, I think it's something like 60% men, 40% women, which is a huge, huge difference from other mainline churches. And obviously somebody who knows a lot about the Orthodox Church and who is great at talking about it is Mr. Andrew Wilson joining us today. How are you, sir?

[Andrew Wilson]

I'm good. Thank you for having me back. I really appreciate it.

[Gerald]

Absolutely.

[Andrew Wilson]

So you can see today I have my battle armor on. Right? No hat.

[Gerald]

You do. The hat is on.

[Andrew Wilson]

There's no bald spot. The hat's really cool. Okay. But I have the battle armor armor on today in case this turns into a drag out, brutal debate. No, I'm kidding. Dear God, no.

[Gerald]

Help. No. But I wanted to jump into some of this with you. You and I had some really good conversations recently about this. You were on the show recently and we thought it'd be a good episode to do for Gerald apologizes, apologetics. Gerald Apologizes, Apologetics. It doesn't mean that. It does not mean that. But neither way. Neither here nor there. So, Andrew, you have the crucible on YouTube. We also talked about it being on Rumble and since we're a big Rumble house here, I just wanted to make sure. Can people find you on Rumble as well?

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, they can. And I don't know, who knows, maybe we'll get in this Rumble lineup thing. I do have a show in mind for it, but. But yeah, you can actually find us on Rumble. The best place that you can find us to support us is the Crucible video. That's where you'll find our entire backlog. Some of the funniest stuff you'll ever see online. Also some of the most entertaining. So good to see all you.

[Gerald]

There you go there and follow him on X at paleocristcon. I love following you on X. It's a bit of a treat because I think sometimes you just spend your days looking for your next victim to poke. Not always in a mean spirited sort of way. If you watched our Ash Wednesday episode, sometimes you have to put their face right back in the mirror to make sure that they understand what really is going on. Let's talk about that because you and I were discussing this and looking for kind of a stat that we thought people would be interested in and find kind of interesting and compelling. And I think what we found was that Pew stat that most of these other denominations, most of these other kind of branches of Christianity, not denominations, but branches essentially are run and kind of populated mostly by women.

[Andrew Wilson]

What do you attribute that to NGOs and feminism. I mean, like, here's the truth. So we started looking into this a couple of years ago because this actually blew my mind as well. NGOs, there's many NGOs and private corporate donors, in fact, who allocate large portions of their budget towards the infiltration of various churches around the country. Especially, you've seen megachurches, right? Protestant megachurches. So I'll explain how this is done. They call it clergy training. So what they'll do is they'll come in and say, hey, look, we want to train your clergy for the problems of modernity. We'll have professional psychologists come in, they'll assist with the training and this and that. And what it actually does is it erodes the system over time inside of these more traditional churches and they become soft towards issues they were not soft on before. And so a lot of it is actually infiltration. And the second part of it is that feminists see it as a position of power. So inside of these churches, think of it on a local issue, on the local level, where are the power bases? Well, you can have local politics, but actually, surprisingly, on the local level, unless you're in big cities, your local politicians don't really have that much power, at least not influence wise over people. Your church leaders do.

[Gerald]

Absolutely.

[Andrew Wilson]

Especially in smaller towns, smaller areas.

[Gerald]

They're probably revered more too. Like you look at it, it kind of is a natural.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, it gives you credibility, right? Gives you credibility and it gives you status. And this type of thing used to.

[Gerald]

Give you preferred seating on airlines.

[Andrew Wilson]

That's right. And a lot of women actually see that as an opportunity for them to move into powerful positions. And another reason that this happens is because. And okay, let me set it up to make sure. What is this about? To get taken out of context, but a lot of women will ride the carousel for a lot of their life. And when they want, when they want to reform, when they want to reform, they will move into kind of weaker churches where they can kind of keep the progressive attitudes. Right, they can keep the progressive attitudes. And what they're really looking for is not being judged. I don't want to be judged. I don't want to be judged. I don't want to be judged. Well, what's really going on is they're trying to kind of jockey their faith into buying a new reputation.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

And I see that. I call these types of women sewing circle Christians. And I believe that this is one of the biggest problems in Protestant churches that there is, is that there's lots and lots of women who want to leverage their faith to buy a new reputation. And what they're supposed to be doing is falling on their knees begging for forgiveness. Right. And doing everything in their power to create a reconciliation between, you know, between their past and their. And their faith through humility. That's the point, Right. Not to buy a new reputation. That would be the opposite of Christian ethics.

[Gerald]

Right? Yeah. Part of. I think part of obviously, you know, the process of forgiveness is realizing, or the process of, you know, coming to Christ and having a faith is realizing that you're a sinner in need of a savior.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yes.

[Gerald]

And that's the whole process of taking responsibility for past actions, not necessarily letting the shame and guilt from those things keep you down. That's exactly what Satan wants. You're too bad to ever come to God. Why would he ever accept you? Right. But you do have to face what you've done, and that apart from Christ, that is exactly who you are. And you're right. You can't just come in and say, now I'm a member of X Church, and that makes me somewhat holy.

[Andrew Wilson]

And it doesn't. Here's one of the things that happens. And you'll see this in a lot of Christian dating circles, a big problem nobody really talks about. My wife has. She's been keeping a close eye on it. The people who are around the whatever podcast who are recently Reformed Christians have been keeping a close eye on it. So I have as well. But what happens is a lot of these women will come in after having kind of done these horrible things in their life, been very promiscuous, this and that. And they say, well, why don't these Christian men want me? I'm reformed. Christ is my savior. Well, they're not trying to take that away from you. And your sins are washed away through the blood of Christ. But that doesn't mean that your reputation goes with it. And you shouldn't have any expectation as a woman that you're going to get a virtuous Chad Christian man when you have spent your life on your back. Right. And so. And this is a kind of a false expectation which happens with buying that new reputation. You can't hold that against me. I'm reformed. It's like, well, whether you are, you're not. That doesn't mean that Christian men are obligated to be with you or, you know, to. To do something like this. Right.

[Gerald]

Takes away the consequence for your actions. It's clearly spelled out in the Bible. There may be Earthly consequences. Whatever sin you've committed, you can be forgiven and you can be saved. But you might still be in prison for murder.

[Andrew Wilson]

Right? Right. Or you might still have the reputation of a harlot.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

And the thing is, is, like, it doesn't mean we don't want you in the church. It doesn't mean we don't want you with Christ. Right. It doesn't mean that over time you can't change your reputation anyway.

[Gerald]

Right.

[Andrew Wilson]

What it does mean, though, is that men still are going to have preferences. And them being a Christian, maybe a lot of them can look past a lot of that type of behavior, but the ones who can't, they don't have any obligation to do so. Because you are also a Christian. That's insane.

[Gerald]

Right.

[Andrew Wilson]

But that's part of the buying of the new reputation that I'm talking about.

[Gerald]

Yeah. Well, we need that incentive structure in place so that women look at that as a cautionary tale and go, hey, make sure you're incentivized to make good decisions now.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yes.

[Gerald]

Because if you don't, you may end up like this. If you can just kind of do whatever you want to do. And this goes for men, too, sleeping around. If you can have that kind of reputation, then men don't typically seek that kind of, I guess, cover from church necessarily. But it is that same kind of thing that we have. Like, if you have that reputation for going around and mistreating women, probably not going to attract the best women into your life. To find a good wife and a good mother. It might be a little bit difficult, but on a much different scale, I think.

[Andrew Wilson]

And when you look at the violation of virtues, this is the truth. This is a descriptor of is not what should be. You're right. That it should be the case.

[Gerald]

Right.

[Andrew Wilson]

That when it comes to promiscuity, we're.

[Gerald]

Not judged as harshly.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. That men should have the same outcomes as women. But the truth of the matter is, is that women judge promiscuity in men way differently than men judge promiscuity in women. In fact, there's a lot of women, and this has blown my mind over the years learning this, that will judge a man as being a creep or a weirdo because they don't have sexual experience by the time they're in their 30s, they think, well, wait a second, why won't women go near you?

[Gerald]

What's wrong with you?

[Andrew Wilson]

What's wrong with you? You know what I mean? What's going on here?

[Gerald]

Is it because I bring the chains and the whips out day one.

[Andrew Wilson]

So yeah, so in some ways they're like on the promiscuity aspect of it, it's women who are setting the standard for like, we don't care as much about male promiscuity, but with men we definitely care a lot about promiscuity. And for a couple of reasons. One's for status. Right. And I mean that's just the case. It is a status thing. The second is because of paternity. This is how we were able to historically determine paternity is through how promis. You know, if a woman was promiscuous, you probably would question the paternity of the child. Right. And so you wanted to have a chaste virgin on your wedding night. It assured the paternity that that was your lineage. You know what I mean? The paternity testing has only become a thing recently. It doesn't mean biologically. We're just going to change our mindset.

[Gerald]

On this coincides with the Jerry Springer show. Roughly.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, right, right. So and then, you know, the, the third reason for this is because when you look at status, a man who can achieve many, many, many women. Right.

[Gerald]

More desirable.

[Andrew Wilson]

It's more desirable for women.

[Gerald]

That weird. But it's true. It's 100% true.

[Andrew Wilson]

But a woman who can achieve whatever man she wants is just Norma. Right?

[Gerald]

Very impressive.

[Andrew Wilson]

Is just Norma or Susan. It's just a normal chick. Right.

[Gerald]

So no, it is true. Again, this is not advocating for that. But it is true that that is kind of societally how we see these things. We are going to be rating you guys to Tim Pool in just a minute here. Make sure you stick around for the entire lineup. If you're watching on the free episode. If you're not and you are a mug club. Sorry, Mug club is Rumble Premium. Rumble Premium is Mug Club. I always have to remember that if you are not a member right now, join it is $99 annually or $9.99 a month. You get additional content, extra show that we're going to have here with me and Andrew. And then also you get a number of other creators an ad free experience. It's a fantastic deal. You get the hand etched mug, the co promoted mug. Those are on the way right now. Thank you very much for your patience. But if you are not, you are going to be sent off and miss out on a very interesting conversation where apparently Andrew thinks that Martin Luther is a schizophrenic who banged a nun. You heard that right? Schizophrenic and banged a nun. Now, listen, you did say, I understand why he split with the Catholic Church. I understand why he did what he. But he was a schizophrenic who banged it on. Where is that from? I haven't heard that yet. Probably because I'm a Protestant. They won't put that in the brochure.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, I mean, a lot of Protestants actually distance themselves from Martin Luther because Martin Luther had tons of contradictions in his own doctrine, including, by the way, he venerated Mary. So that was a big deal.

[Gerald]

It is a big deal.

[Andrew Wilson]

So did John Calvin and all of the kind of Protestant reformers. All of them, at different points said that the veneration of Mary is a natural part of the human condition. So, you know, like, I have the quotes for him.

[Gerald]

Yeah, I would disagree with.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, but no offense to Mary.

[Gerald]

I mean, like, it's like you're on the fence about, like Mary's. Just like whatever Mary or Mary is, you know, the influencer of God. I think even the Pope, when he recently died, he. Before he died, he wrote something. Oh, what was it? Now, I'm going to have to find this. But something about committing his spirit or something into the hands of Mary or Blessed Mother Mary or something like that. Please, if I'm misquoting, I apologize. It was something along those lines. And I just. I remember going, wait, what? Like that. That didn't make any sense to me at all.

[Andrew Wilson]

How come?

[Gerald]

Why would you need that?

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, what does need have to do with it?

[Gerald]

Well, the necessity would be created by Scripture saying that this is the process. So maybe that's the wrong word for it. What I'm saying is what in Scripture makes you think that? Not you, but I would say them. I don't know what you believe.

[Andrew Wilson]

Oh, yeah. So when it comes to the veneration of saints, do you. Let's. Well, let's start with saints.

[Gerald]

Don't say saints, because I want to go with Mary. Because specifically saying Mary kind of has the. The ability to. Not just intercession, because I understand that aspect.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, let's start with this. Was Mary a virgin?

[Gerald]

Yes.

[Andrew Wilson]

Okay, so you believe.

[Gerald]

Not perpetual, though.

[Andrew Wilson]

Not perpetual.

[Gerald]

I don't think there's any evidence that she was a perpetual.

[Andrew Wilson]

What's the evidence?

[Gerald]

She wasn't Many, many times that her sons and daughters were referred to. Now, I know people say that that could have been some other form of relation, but it was widely held that.

[Andrew Wilson]

Mary wasn't widely held. Not by the church.

[Gerald]

Mostly by Martin Luther.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, mostly. Yeah. Mostly by. Mostly by Martin Luther.

[Gerald]

A lot of different thinkers in the church did not see the necessity for perpetual virginity. Like why? Okay, let's say that I can argue one way that it is and you can argue one way that it's not. And then let's just say that we come. Okay, you believe what you believe, I believe what I believe. My next question is, okay, but why is it necessary for her to be a perpetual virgin? What does it change about the story?

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, okay, let us assume.

[Gerald]

Not that that's necessarily like the most important thing.

[Andrew Wilson]

Let's assume for a second. It changes nothing. Right? But the fact of the matter is, is that the Bible is actually pretty clear that this is that Mary was a perpetual virgin.

[Gerald]

But where is that?

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, so Jesus was conceived right, through an immaculate conception, for sure, at the birth of Jesus. Now, do you know the history of Mary?

[Gerald]

Some of it, yes, but not sure. I don't know all of it.

[Andrew Wilson]

So how did she end up with Joseph?

[Gerald]

I don't know that.

[Andrew Wilson]

You don't know that. Okay. So she was raised. This is my understanding, okay? People can go back and fact check and I'm willing to be corrected. Again, we haven't admonished, but look, I'm not an apologist. I'm just going off memory here, okay? So my understanding was that Mary was raised essentially in something which would be akin to a nunnery. Okay. She was very young when she was essentially, in a sense, fostered out to Joseph. Okay. Joseph was a much, much, much older man. Okay. And this was not set up. He was not sleeping with her. She was promised to marry him. When she came to an age where she could be married, then she became pregnant. Right. And that's the immaculate Conception.

[Gerald]

Right.

[Andrew Wilson]

There is zero evidence that Mary ever slept with anybody anywhere in the Bible anywhere. So, like, you would have to present that. That would be the claim. Right. We can agree that the immaculate conception happened. She was a virgin.

[Gerald]

Correct.

[Andrew Wilson]

It would be for you. That's a big, bold claim, though, to make the claim.

[Gerald]

I think both are right. Wouldn't both be big, bold claims, like equally big and bold that she either did or did not? No, I think mine would actually be.

[Andrew Wilson]

Less because why would mine be a bold claim? I would have no reason to assume anything to the contrary. You're making the contrary claim.

[Gerald]

That wouldn't be. That wouldn't be typical for the time for any woman unless she couldn't bear children. Right. So there would be no expectation that she wouldn't have.

[Andrew Wilson]

We have evidence she was a virgin when she gave birth, Right?

[Gerald]

Yes.

[Andrew Wilson]

Okay.

[Gerald]

What evidence.

[Andrew Wilson]

What evidence do we have beyond that she was not.

[Gerald]

None other than what I said in scripture that we disagree.

[Andrew Wilson]

And that would be the bold claim you would be making the claim there.

[Gerald]

You do see the contradiction though, right?

[Andrew Wilson]

No. What's the contradiction?

[Gerald]

Fathering or fathering. Having children like she had one.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Gerald]

Why would she necessarily stop? Because that.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, okay, but that's a. So, but that's question probably bad.

[Gerald]

It's a bad debate.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, but. But that's question begging. Right? So you're like. Yeah, so you just, you, you're just baking the assumption like she must have just had sex after that. Why.

[Gerald]

I imagine I, I think it's fair to say that there is no evidence. If we disagree on what the Bible says about, you know, the brothers of. Maybe that means a different relative. What is it cousins? Is that what people say?

[Andrew Wilson]

It could be cousins or there could be another referent there. And it's talking about brothers. Doesn't mean that these are the.

[Gerald]

And I can see that because I think there's legitimate debate on both sides about that. So I understand that. It just naturally, as a. When I'm thinking about the situation, I would think, okay, I would assume that if Joseph did die at some age, that Mary would have potentially remarried. Maybe not. I don't think so culturally, it probably would have been more likely that she stayed a widow and was taken care of. That's why at the foot of the cross, you know, look at your son, your mother. Mother, your son. Right. So being taken care of at that point. But I don't think that it would be out of the realm of possibility for me to see Mary having other children fathered by Joseph. Now, I agree I would have to have evidence to support that to be able to make that claim definitively.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, right. And there isn't any.

[Gerald]

But I don't see the. But I don't see the issue with it being. I really don't know both ways.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Gerald]

Well, I guess I don't see how it would affect marriage.

[Andrew Wilson]

I guess this is somewhat. This is somewhat pedantic, but let's just say inside of the tradition of the Church. Right. For all of church history, until, until the reformers came along, Mary was indeed considered perpetual virgin. She was the perpetual theotokos, the perpetual virgin. So I don't know why Martin. Maybe it's because Martin Luther liked to bang nuns, I don't know. And he just assumed that she must have. You know what I mean? Like, maybe that was it. I Don't know.

[Gerald]

But there's very little competition for that space, let's just be honest.

[Andrew Wilson]

It's just true. So, you know, again, like, if you wanted to have somebody who could really dive into this, the specificity of like, of these types of minutia claims inside of theology, what you would want to do is fly out Jay Dyer. He's the best orthodox Christian apologist on planet Earth, right? And this is all he does. All he does is dive into orthodox theology. But for like the minutiae of those kinds of claims, right. They are outside the realm of my stupid Irish political mind.

[Gerald]

Well, and this is one of those things that I don't want to get hung up on so many of the details, but I think it's a good question to help people answer, because my natural question for all of the conversations that we have had is what drew you to orthodoxy? What is drawing people to this, these males to Orthodoxy?

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, so I came to religion a different way. You know, I was raised a non denominational Christian essentially.

[Gerald]

Okay.

[Andrew Wilson]

And I think like most people, you could call that like cultural Christianity more than anything.

[Gerald]

Unfortunately, the vast majority, I really did.

[Andrew Wilson]

Think that I had faith, right. But I just thought that, you know, you just, you just do the Jesus thing, right? You know, Jesus Christ, the Lord and Savior, you're done, you're a Christian. That's it, right? Yeah, well, that's not the case and I don't know why. And I think perhaps it is a satanic veil which is put over people's eyes that I never really desired to take the time to look into my faith any more than that. That was it. That's all you need, right? It's all about faith. And if you have it, you're going to heaven and if you don't, you're going to go cook. Right?

[Gerald]

That's right next to Jeffrey Epstein, apparently.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. This is the. Well, I mean, this is the presentation which is given to, I think most people.

[Gerald]

Well, you and I agree up until this point, like Protestant. And I grew up in the Protestant church. I went to a Catholic university. You and I both have our issues with Catholicism. We love Catholic people, but we have some issues with just how it's kind of put together structurally. In the Protestant church. There are far too many churches that give you about a 15 minute sermon. And in that sermon they don't really have much time to go into depth because about 5 of it is taken up by a story about what the pastor did that week to kind of set up the lesson. And so really you're left with a lot of worship, a lot of wordplate and 10 minutes of stuff.

[Andrew Wilson]

A lot of sports analogies.

[Gerald]

Yes, exactly.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, and the thing is, this is. This is one of my big problems with the way in which evangelism is done. It's done from the perspective of like. Like, I heard a guy, he was on TP USA and he had like an I heart Jesus shirt, and his whole ministry is talking about how, man, I was down and out, and one night I was in a Waffle House, and when Jesus Christ appeared to me, like, now, like, look, now, maybe that maybe, like, maybe that works. Maybe that works for some people. You know what I mean? But like, a guy like me, or I think most normal guys like me who are pretty reasonable, pretty rational people are like, shut up. You know, you just didn't appear to. You had a coffee shot, you know.

[Gerald]

Healthy skepticism, I think you'd say.

[Andrew Wilson]

Healthy skin. So for me, I guess I had to come to this logically first.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

Right. I had to actually come to the idea logically that there had to be a God. And then through the impossibility of the contrary, which God and why?

[Gerald]

Right.

[Andrew Wilson]

And so for me, the logical form came first, the faith came second. Interestingly enough, I've actually had Protestants criticize me for this and say, that's not right. It should be through only faith that you came through this. Right.

[Gerald]

I remember talk to God about that.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. I remember asking Orthodox priests, and he was like, people come to God in the most bizarre ways you could ever think of, which maybe includes being at a Waffle House one night. You know what I mean? And maybe. You know what I mean? It's in the most bizarre ways possible. I have always thought that it's fine to make logical arguments for the existence of God and logical, reasoned arguments for why you should believe in Christianity. And I think that that reaches people in a way that oftentimes the rhetoric of faith does not. And the faith comes after the acceptance. Right.

[Gerald]

It's a reasonable faith that we have. And you have to be. I think you. I have so much criticism of the Protestant church, but I love being Protestant for very. For very specific reasons. I understand the shortcomings, though, because I've been in churches where the shortcomings are very obvious and you can go to the extremes and, you know, the snake handler churches and stuff like that. Like, it breeds that kind of stuff, where you're like, where in the world did you guys, like, isolate one verse on Paul's Journey and think that that should be the norm in church. I saw a video recently of a guy. Well, that's because he got bit right here and blood's pouring down his face and he's like throwing up. I don't know if it was staged, but it looked hilarious.

[Andrew Wilson]

That's exegesis. Exegesis. Absent normative authority. And that's why you have.

[Gerald]

Don't you go to authority.

[Andrew Wilson]

That's why you have 8,000 different Protestant sects, is because there's no normative authority for Protestants. And Martin Luther, you know, a lot of that was a big land grab, right? Big land grab which was being done. And a lot of those guys got a lot of social status, including Calvin, Martin Luther and a lot of the Protestant religion.

[Gerald]

Maybe they could have killed Martin Luther. Like there was some risk to doing this. Well, you know, so, I mean, the status thing, yes, it did come. But he literally could have been killed going against the Catholic Church.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, the thing is, he wasn't. And he had a very influential merchant father who was able to get him out of trouble. He was a very wealthy guy. He had some status. And it's like. I don't think he really ran as high a risk as. As it's being presented. You know what I mean? This was a. His dad had some influence. And I don't think that the. The church burning Martin Luther would have gone over very well at the time.

[Gerald]

So they burned a lot of people.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, they did burn a lot of people, but they. They weren't really. Well, not. Not actually at that time. They weren't really burning that many people. They burnt a lot of people before that. Before that. Yeah. So, I mean, if you're looking at the. The bit. The big witch. Witch burnings in Europe.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

It'd be like, what, 13th through 15th century, roughly.

[Gerald]

The witch hunt, essentially.

[Andrew Wilson]

If you look at what was the Inquisition, what were the years for the Inquisition?

[Gerald]

I don't know. I was told there'd be no math.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Gerald]

I mean, I know the Spanish Inquisition. I know that time period. I know kind of. Yeah, the Catholic Church has done some very, very, very, very bad things. I'm just going to be honest. Like, you have to be honest with your history. You've had some very bad popes. You've had some very weird situations where people have bought the papacy. You've had two different popes that excommunicated one another. At one time, he had a pope.

[Andrew Wilson]

That dug another pope up and put him on trial.

[Gerald]

Really, the bones. I think I remember this now.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, he dug a. Well, he Dug a Pope up and he put him on trial and then they convicted him and then they buried him again.

[Gerald]

Yeah, what's the point?

[Andrew Wilson]

And then, and then later that was overturned.

[Gerald]

Well, did they at least do dig.

[Andrew Wilson]

Him up for the overturning?

[Gerald]

I mean, come on.

[Andrew Wilson]

Later that was overturned. So look, there was also popes who communed with demons openly. There's no doubt they had.

[Gerald]

It was Game of Thrones in some ways. I'm not even thinking.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yes, there was popes who had a big fascination with the demonic. I'm not a Roman Catholic.

[Gerald]

No, you're not.

[Andrew Wilson]

And I don't want to paint you with that wide brush. I'm an orthodox Christian, okay? I'm not a Roman Catholic. We reject the Pope altogether. The thing is though, now I got to run defense for Catholic. Why did you make me do this? Okay, so I do like Catholics. They're very close to Eastern Orthodox and they have like, they have a very rich kind of detailed history. And in their defense, I've argued with Catholics many, many times and they bring up this point. Yeah, you're right. Catholics have done a lot of bad things. I mean, a lot of bad things, but they were the entire world also. And you know what, that's a really good point. So here's what happens when you look at the idea of like a hotel, hostels, things like this. The Catholic Church were the largest supplier of liquor in the world. The largest which existed, they made all the wine for. And basically their influence in Europe was all of Europe. It was this giant organization, I mean massive, with huge government bodies, ecclesiastical authorities. They were influencing kings and kingdoms all the way down to viscounts and earls and landowners and things like this. So of course there's going to be tons of bad actors in that. It's a massive multi country organization. Right? But if you look, for the most part, most Catholic priests actually were doing what they were supposed to do. Most Catholic clergy were doing what they were supposed to do. But there was a lot of them who would live very wealthy lives and obviously were in it for land and this and that and all sorts of different things. But you got to kind of look at it from the perspective of. Yeah, but they were in the. That was the whole known world and Catholics basically ran it. So.

[Gerald]

And I agree, I think there's. We can get into the topic a little bit later, but there's something about what Jesus came to overthrow that seems to be alive and well in religion in general. But specifically within religions that have a lot of hierarchy, it seems to lend Itself, more to that. And I think it's that natural thing. It's like it's run by men. It is just run by fallible human beings that will, over time and with great enough numbers, have a bunch of bad actors potentially in the midst.

[Andrew Wilson]

Do you think Jesus rejected hierarchy?

[Gerald]

No, not out of hand. He set it up. We got our system of governance in hierarchy from that. I completely agree with that. What he was saying is, listen, you guys have made this about stuff that it's not about. Your heart's not even anywhere near where I want it to be. And you've perverted what I've said. I think that's very possible to happen again.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, that's because the idea was the Pharisees were trying to get the spirit of God back to the temple. And the way that they were trying to do this was by trying to follow the letter of the law. So that's why they would take, you know, 10% of their garden for sacrifice and things like this. What Jesus was pointing out is like, you're hypocrites, though, because at the same time, you're, you know, you're basically running to the letter of the law. You're missing the spirit of it. Otherwise, why would you be fasting in such a way where people would notice you're fasting? Why would you be cutting your, you know, your sacrifice off in such a way where it's demonstrated to everybody you're taking it to sacrifice it. Right. He's pointing out that these Pharisees are not following the spirit of what the law is. So in the military, there's a term, you've probably heard it, malicious compliance. What does malicious compliance mean?

[Gerald]

I don't know the specific definition, but it seems like I'm doing what I'm supposed to do.

[Andrew Wilson]

But, yeah, malicious compliance means you're given an order and you follow it to the letter, but not what the spirit of the order was. You know what I mean? And it can get you in a lot of trouble. Malicious compliance can get you in a lot of trouble. There is an expectation that there's a spirit to what somebody says, not just the kind of, like, lawful order of what they say. So if I asked you, hand me that pin, you know what I mean? And you picked up the pen, right, and you said, oh, I can't hand it to you because I'm way over here, it's like, okay, yeah, you're supposed to get up and bring it over here, right? That's what I meant by that. You understood the spirit of what I'm asking, but you're like, well, I'm only going to follow the kind of, the form of only to the letter of what you said. And that's missing. Christian ethics is pluralistic. In fact, there's many different ways. Let me give you an example. Is it disrespectful in Japan to go into your parents house with your shoes on?

[Gerald]

I would imagine, yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

So that's not honoring your mother and father. Right, right. But is it disrespectful to do in the United States? No. So wait a second, so then we can both wear our shoes indoors and not wear our shoes indoors and it can be disrespectful and not disrespectful.

[Gerald]

Well, that's a cultural thing, but yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

It'S a cultural thing. So I guess honoring thy mother and father actually has some type of like cultural aptitude to it then, doesn't it?

[Gerald]

Yeah, but I mean, you're talking about the Hebrew culture that was given this. So there shouldn't have been much like need for understanding on how to honor your mother and father. Yes, you have to define what that means, just like you have to define what is the Sabbath.

[Andrew Wilson]

Now you get what is work like.

[Gerald]

I get.

[Andrew Wilson]

You're getting very legalistic though.

[Gerald]

No, no, no, I get it. Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. So what about pluralism? The idea of pluralism is that honoring your mother and your father, there's a spirit to that, which Christians understand that. It's not a legalistic perception. There's a spiritual perception. And we as Christians are supposed to be able to identify what that is. We could not actually define what honoring your mother and your father looks like in my household can be way different how my kids honor me than in your household. You know what I mean? But who's the determiner here? Well, I still think in spirit you could agree that's how his kids honor him. Even though that's not how my kids honor me.

[Gerald]

Yeah, as long as you received that honor, like. Yeah, that's.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, that's right. So then that infers pluralism or the idea that there's many different ways to get to what the ethic is, to what the actual thing is that we're trying to get to.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

And that was what was missing. Right. That's what made upset and called them vipers and whitewashed tombs.

[Gerald]

And they were taking advantage of people too by keeping these burdens on them that Christ never did. And I think that's one thing that structure and hierarchy over time can unintentionally do and assume the best of intentions.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, but that can be in the.

[Gerald]

Let me just. Let me just finish this. It could be. This could be in the Baptist church denomination as well. Like, no drinking. Well, hold on. Jesus never said that. Jesus made wine. Jesus had wine. Like, you can say that it is good that we don't drink because we don't want to be a slave to anything on earth. Right. I don't want anything to be a master over me. Fine. Making it a proclamation. That's a problem for me because that's not what scripture says. We have to hold those things loosely. And so that's.

[Andrew Wilson]

It also defeats the purpose of legalism or pluralism. In Orthodox, we have a concept called economia. If you're in Greece, the customs of Greece are going to be different than the customs of Russia. The Divine Liturgy is going to be done the exact same way in both places. But the customs in which people engage with each other and things like this are going to be. And Paul talks about this, right. He talks about the distinction in customs between the pagans and, you know, and this type of thing. So. But the. But the idea here is just, look, because there's different customs, how you honor people in Russia is going to be different than how you honor them in Greece and this and that. But we can never veer away from the teachings of Jesus Christ. But at the same time, we can still adhere to cultural customs which don't defeat those things. Alcohol is one of those things. So is smoking. That's one of those things. Right. I don't think you're pro. Right. I don't think it's. Yeah, I don't think it's particularly socially acceptable in modernity in the United States to, like, smoke inside of a church. Right? No, but inside some Asian nations, it's probably fine.

[Gerald]

Yeah. Right.

[Andrew Wilson]

It's probably fine.

[Gerald]

Drinking some coffee, smoking a cigarette.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. And are you going to go in there and be like, hey, hey, that's not very Christian of you?

[Gerald]

No.

[Andrew Wilson]

That would defeat the whole purpose. That would make you the very Pharisee that you're trying to condemn. Right. That's the whole point of it. It's the same thing with alcohol. Orthodoxy is called the drinking man's religion. Interestingly enough, though. Hold on.

[Gerald]

You're making me really want to dive into this thing just a little bit.

[Andrew Wilson]

Interestingly, it's just like with Catholics, they drink plenty.

[Gerald]

Yeah, they do.

[Andrew Wilson]

But we're also taught to abstain for long periods of time from things like this during Lent and during all Sorts of different fasting days. So what it's showing you is moderation. The alcohol itself, of course, Jesus turned water into wine.

[Gerald]

First miracle, lots of wine, by the.

[Andrew Wilson]

Way, for a party. By the way, for a party?

[Gerald]

Yes. At the end of a party.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, yeah, it was for a party. So the thing is like, look, this is not the point principle of Christianity at all is to go in and tell people, oh, hey, you're drinking vodka, that's not very Christian, or smoking a cigarette that's not very Christian. You know what I mean? That's not the point in the principle at all.

[Gerald]

No, I agree 100%. I just have this like, worry I guess, because there are things that I disagree with in Catholicism and I just, maybe, maybe this is a flaw in my logic for this because I haven't looked into it. I look at man made structure with a lot of skepticism. When it involves the church to some degree. I think it's necessary. And I'm not 100% sure where the line is for me. I'm not sure where it goes from being necessary for structure and order and consistency to going to like, okay, now this is getting so unmanageable that I'm not sure that I even believe it. I think I take a lot of what I've seen in Catholicism and I just place it on any structure that gets too big. Let me give you the other example. In Protestantism with the Baptist denominations, I've taken a lot of what I've seen of the hierarchy. I went to a Baptist church, that was great. But I've heard a lot about the Baptist denomination, the people that are in charge and kind of the things that they push to other people. And it's like, yes, but that's not from scripture. So I don't know where that line is for me. But I have a healthy skepticism.

[Andrew Wilson]

I think, well, it's impossible to have a universal singular church without an ecclesiastical authority, hierarchy and tradition. Otherwise you could not enter into what I'm talking about with economia. We could not accommodate Greece and Russia and Romania and everybody else. But why not under the same church? Because how, how could you do it without understanding the rigors, the rigorism of the religion and tradition? Right. So if there's deviation from tradition, it's not the same church. You don't have the same church. Like if we start going, oh, okay, here, drink grape punch, drink grape punch, okay? And eat this cracker. That's the same as the Eucharist. No, it's not the same as the Eucharist. Which is a divine. It's a divine mystery and part of the foundational structure of the church, which is supposed to be done weekly. Right. This is not. So if you stray from that, what happens then? Your man made institution that you're so upset about, which has kept this in order for 2000 years, you've actually split it now into 8000 man made institutions, all of them warring against each other in a very tribal way, all based on this. They become the arbiter of God. They become the ultimate arbiter. Their exegesis becomes the ultimate exegesis. Because who can argue with you?

[Gerald]

No, I agree. We talked about this yesterday. You basically individualized Christianity to where this person says this. And so how can I tell you that you're wrong?

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, how?

[Gerald]

And I understand that, but it doesn't mean that the other way for me like ties everything together.

[Andrew Wilson]

That's a cop out. Together look. That's a cop out. That annoys me a little bit. A little bit. It annoys me. Okay, before you divert to like, what about you? Right. What about the other way? What about this? It's like a lot of people like to do that. They like to defer over before they answer for it first. Like, answer for it. How do you reconcile the fact that if you crack open a Bible and you exegete text, right. Or a tradition or something like that, differently than somebody else, why should I go with you instead of him?

[Gerald]

I'm not saying that I should be able to convince you one way or the other. I think there are very few things that make up Christianity. Very few things that you must have. The divinity of Christ is one of those things. Right. Very, very few things. Outside of that, you have some things that are very important.

[Andrew Wilson]

But you can still have a lot of things though, meaning, like you'll have the Trinity is not Christianity.

[Gerald]

Yeah, of course, Right. I think there's very few things like the Trinity though.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. But when you're talking about doctrine itself.

[Gerald]

Well, give me an example of something that we could disagree over where you'd say, well, I'll turn to scripture and say this. Can people twist scripture? Absolutely.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Gerald]

But I have the Holy Spirit. You have the Holy Spirit. That's supposed to help us interpret scripture. That doesn't mean that's the only thing. But that's supposed to help us understand Scripture.

[Andrew Wilson]

Let me give you an easy one. Okay.

[Gerald]

I feel like this isn't going to be easy.

[Andrew Wilson]

No, no, look, super easy. Are Christians allowed to defend themselves?

[Gerald]

Yes.

[Andrew Wilson]

Show me in the Bible where it Says we can.

[Gerald]

Jesus said to get swords.

[Andrew Wilson]

Jesus said, sell your cloak, get a sword. But then also said not to use the sword.

[Gerald]

He didn't say not to use it. He said, put it up. Not right then.

[Andrew Wilson]

Not right then. But he did say that was a specific instance.

[Gerald]

Right then, right? So he said, there are consequences. If you live by the sword, you die, too. So I understand that, but that's fair.

[Andrew Wilson]

Okay, I can completely understand that. But then what about the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew where he says, if your enemy, right, slaps your cheek, give him your other one. And that was a demand for a call. And you should pray. You should pray for your enemies because.

[Gerald]

It heaps coals on his head, right?

[Andrew Wilson]

You should. And I mean what I'm saying.

[Gerald]

There's more to the story than just that.

[Andrew Wilson]

I agree there's more to the story, but these are actually pretty fundamental ideas. Just the idea. There are whole denominations of Christians which are pacifists because of the teachings of Jesus Christ and the misconstruing of them. And you say. I agree with you, by the way, that Christians can defend themselves. Of course they can defend themselves.

[Gerald]

My point, some people don't.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, exactly right. And that's why you need a normative authority. You have to have a normative authority of a church and the rigors and customs of all traditional Christianity. Otherwise you end up with that. You end up with. Or polygamy, right? Polygamy. With polygamy, well, that's an easy one. We point to Paul, right? And we say, okay, so Paul says to take a wife. If you can't control your lust, take a wife. We point to that and say, well, see, that's monogamy, right? But polygamists will point to the parables of Jesus Christ at the wedding where he says he's going down for multiple brides. And they say, see, that's polygamy. They were all for polygamy. And polygamy at the time was just fine.

[Gerald]

Yes, but. So here's the problem that I have.

[Andrew Wilson]

Are you vouching to me? Normative authority?

[Gerald]

Maybe. Maybe. The problem that I have with that is that you can twist scripture if you want to, but scripture does inform scripture. And so you can use it to confirm. Like, okay, so you say the Jesus thing. Can you point to. I don't even. I wouldn't concede that point. But the great thing about the Bible is that Jesus or God spread the message over all of the available bandwidth. It's a great thing to do in the military if you have an enemy jamming your signal. And you want to spread your message over the entire bandwidth. That way, if any of it's jammed and it can still get through.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Gerald]

Rip a page out of the Bible, tell me what you've lost. Doesn't matter the page, you've not lost something that is fundamental to Christianity by ripping one page out. So what that tells me is that God makes this point over and over through symbolism, through, you know, stuff being fulfilled from the Old Testament to the New Testament, patterns being set up from the Old Testament to the New Testament being fulfilled in Jesus in different letters. It's spread throughout the available bandwidth. You would have a really hard time saying, hey, I found one thing in the Bible that another part of the Bible doesn't inform me on and be able to end up that far askew. But people do this and say, I found my verse. I'm gonna build my church on that. Yeah, I'm a snake handler now.

[Andrew Wilson]

But they. But in order for you to do this, you would have to appeal to a normative authority. In this case, you, Scripture. Well, okay. Scripture informs scripture.

[Gerald]

Yes.

[Andrew Wilson]

Who's reading it?

[Gerald]

The people. This is what Paul said in Acts 17:11. Right.

[Andrew Wilson]

Hang on. You're reading it, right, Sorry. You're reading it.

[Gerald]

I'm reading it with you.

[Andrew Wilson]

So you're the interpreter.

[Gerald]

Theoretically, yes.

[Andrew Wilson]

So who's the normative authority?

[Gerald]

I'm reading the scripture right here. You can argue what it says, but here's the thing. What if you're wrong? What if you guys are.

[Andrew Wilson]

My question to you, but what if you're wrong?

[Gerald]

It's the same thing with the Orthodox Church. You guys split from Catholicism. Right?

[Andrew Wilson]

Catholicism split from us.

[Gerald]

Oh, come on.

[Andrew Wilson]

There's no. Come on. They split from us.

[Gerald]

Fine. They split from you guys because they didn't think you were doing it right. They would make the same arguments because.

[Andrew Wilson]

They decided that they were going to make a bishop into a pope. And we said, you're not allowed to do that.

[Gerald]

Right? Yeah, they thought, that's totally fine. You guys said that's not totally fine.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. So they. So there was a schism.

[Gerald]

There's the schism. They would levy the same criticisms against you.

[Andrew Wilson]

So I have two structures, the criticism and normative authority, though.

[Gerald]

No, they wouldn't.

[Andrew Wilson]

The Roman Catholics, you guys would both.

[Gerald]

Leverage that against Romans.

[Andrew Wilson]

Roman Catholics would say that, like, I can go and take, you know, the Roman Catholics, when they do their version of what, the Eucharist. I could go take that tomorrow. I don't have to be baptized as A Roman Catholic, they can see that the Orthodox are correct, their Christology is correct, and our liturgical doctrines are correct. They concede that point. We don't concede their points. Right. We don't want reconciliation with Rome. They want reconciliation with us. We don't want reconciliation with them. So, no, I would not get attacked on my Christology by Roman Catholics. That's not the case. Or on liturgical doctrine from Roman Catholics. It would only be Protestants who would be attacked. So there's a great meme on this. I just posted it the other day. It's a funny one. It says when I'm making fun of Roman Catholics, and it shows the guy smiling and it says, but when Protestants are making fun of Roman Catholics. And then the guy's all angry looking. It's like, so, so the thing is, it's like we, we. We're like. We're like brothers who are fighting. You know what I mean? But you're like the annoying neighbors. You need to get kicked. You know what I mean? You're like the annoying neighbor. We're like, this is our fight. Listen, don't get the middle of our fight. This is our fight. It's not for you. We're way too good for you. You know what I mean?

[Gerald]

All of us. I mean, listen, not all of us are bad.

[Andrew Wilson]

No, no. Well, look, my parents. My parents are proud. Like, I get asked this all the time, are your parents going to hell? I'm like, I hope not. You know, I hope not. They're Protestants. But our conception, even if I hope.

[Gerald]

You know that, you can more than hope not.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, listen, I'm not.

[Gerald]

My normative authority says you can hope for more.

[Andrew Wilson]

We would never make the salvific claim. Like, I remember a priest was saying, I went to this event called the Orthodox Montana. Great event. And there was a priest there, and a guy asked him the question. He was like, look, you know, I have. Most of my family and friends are Protestants. Are they going to hell? And he was like, well, you were a Protestant before you became Orthodox, right? And he said, yes. Were you going to hell? And he was like, you know, I don't know. And he's like, well, the thing is, don't be too quick to make salvific claims, because didn't you know God before you weren't Orthodox? He said, yeah, I knew God before I was an Orthodox. And he's like, yeah, so did I. So his basic point here was like, don't be in too much of a rush to make these salvific claims about other people. And I agree. And the Orthodox Church, their official doctrine is like, we don't make salvific claims, but what we can claim is the fullness of the truth. Right. And if you don't have the fullness of the truth, is your salvation in jeopardy? I think that's a better case to make.

[Gerald]

What is necessary to be saved in Orthodox Church, because I think it's interesting that we looked up some of this. The Orthodox Church is growing, and I tried to find some of the differences. And you and I have had better conversations on some of the differences that are in the church than you can really find out there. So I bet a lot of our audience may not even know.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, salvation is not from. Again, check with Orthodox authority on this, which I'm not. And I'm not a minister and I'm not a priest.

[Gerald]

Okay. Dave Smith.

[Andrew Wilson]

I'm not a clergy. Right.

[Gerald]

Well, I'm just kidding.

[Andrew Wilson]

For real Orthodox apologists, they should have a blessing from their priest, from their parish, this kind of thing. Yeah, I'm fine talking about this stuff. And it's not even really a disclaimer. It's just like, look, you know, I've been an Orthodox for a few years, and there's people who are way more knowledgeable than me, so double check everything I say here. I'm just giving you my.

[Gerald]

I actually think that's the best way to lead it. The guy that's my favorite kind of expositor, he basically says, like, listen, make sure you go back to Scripture. I get from the Protestant perspective, make sure you go back to scripture to see if what I'm saying is true.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Gerald]

Don't just take my word for it.

[Andrew Wilson]

And I'm not an apologist. It's not my training. And Jay Dyer would be the guy for all that stuff. But I can give you the view. The view is that from the Orthodox perspective, salvation is a lifetime process called theosis. It's not an action or a mind state. This is one of my biggest problems with Protestantism in general is the idea of the mind state of salvation. I've accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. Done right. That's not. Even if you think about it for four seconds, that's really bad. So in Orthodoxy, we have things called sins of omission, which means if you can do a thing in which to somehow glorify God from the biblical sense, you ought do that thing. If you don't do that thing, you're in. You're sinning. Right. You're Committing a sin of omission. Now, these are pardonable sins, don't get me wrong. But this is something like if a person, let's say they're stuck on the side of the road, you know what I mean? Something like this. And you could help them, but you just didn't want to because you're inconvenienced. That'd be an easy thing to point to and say it's a sin of omission, Right. These are spots where you could have shown the grace of God and you didn't, right? Now I'm guilty of those more than anything, probably, Right? There's times where I've been in, like, brutal, you know, blood sport debates and the person's down and I know I don't have to kick them again. Show a little grace, you do, you know, But I'm going to heal. Kick them. Right? And I know, I know I'm guilty of that, right. I'm just, you know, I'm chief of chief of sinners. Right, Chief of sinners.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

But the idea that salvation is a lifetime process through theosis becoming more like Christ is the orthodox view.

[Gerald]

Can you process, can you lose your salvation?

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, of course. And by the way, this. Once saved, always saved. It's fucking stupid. It doesn't even make sense. Like, you would have to make the determination that you can read another person's heart.

[Gerald]

Oh, no, no, no. Yeah, I 100% agree. Like, it'd be very difficult. And we're actually cautioned even in Protestant churches against saying, like, you're saved or not saved. That's not. Something like, that's for the Holy Spirit, not me.

[Andrew Wilson]

But even once saved, always saved. Just that. That's illogical on its face. Why couldn't. Why couldn't you renounce your, you know, why couldn't you be saved and really mean it? Yeah, you really mean it 100%. And then, you know, like a catastrophe happens. Your daughter at 3 years old, dies horrifically of cancer.

[Gerald]

Right.

[Andrew Wilson]

And you lose your faith. Right.

[Gerald]

So do you lose it or do you renounce it? Like, is it because you're so mad at. I think there's a difference here because I'll give you my caveat, that, that I agree with you in a large way. Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

Or you lose it. Okay, so it's gone. Right.

[Gerald]

I would say this.

[Andrew Wilson]

If you reject Christ, you're not saved.

[Gerald]

Right. So I would say that it will never surprise you. Right. Because scripture is pretty clear about people who have come to the knowledge of God and tasted that fruit Once they have fallen away, cannot be brought back. That's something we have to deal with in Scripture, which, to your point, once saved, always saved, kind of falls at that verse. And you're like, well, that doesn't really exist. But I don't think you can accidentally through the process of sanctification. So as a Christian, as a Protestant, I don't believe in you make a decision and that's the end of the story. I do believe that when it. When, you know, the Bible tells us that if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, you will be saved, that it means just that. But it doesn't stop there. That was James's point to Paul was saying, like, yes, you are saved, but this is what life should look like after this because of the fact that you're saved. Like, this should be how you live as a Christian. It doesn't mean you're earning it every single day. It means that you're responding to the grace of God.

[Andrew Wilson]

But you would lose. You could still lose that.

[Gerald]

How can you lose that?

[Andrew Wilson]

Because you can renounce it.

[Gerald]

No, from that I agree. If you do renounce it, that would be my caveat. Like, yes, you can renounce your faith. I do believe that.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, then you can lose salvation.

[Gerald]

Yes. But I mean, I say it wouldn't surprise you. Like, I wouldn't go through my life thinking, like, and God would. I would get to heaven and God would be like, yes, but this sin right here. And I'd be like, wait, what? Like, I don't think it would surprise anybody. Like, I didn't accidentally lose my faith because I forgot to keep some ordinance or something like that. It would be a renunciation that it would take for me to do that. And I also would agree that behavior over time, especially looking at sin and calling it good over time, could be a renunciation, not just like a proclamation. Right?

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, no, no. Well, that doesn't actually follow. So I'm thinking about what you're saying. Yeah, let me steal man, and make sure I got it right. You're saying, like, look, you have salvation. Let's say you have salvation. You've confessed with your mouth. Christ is Lord. Right. And you believe it with your heart. But due to, like, you not following certain things, you know, you die.

[Gerald]

Not purposefully. I mean, like, by accident.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, by accident even. Right. And you die and you go to heaven, Right. Or wherever. Judgment Day, right. You're being judged. You don't think God's going to be like, look, you didn't go to church these three Sundays straight to hell with you. Right, okay.

[Gerald]

Or I committed a sin that I was not able to atone for prior to my death.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, I get that. But what about omission? Like, what about omission? Like, what if it is the case that you're put time and time again in front of proper theology and in front of proper action, proper way, and you reject that anyway? How's it like? Is that accidental at that point?

[Gerald]

I think I'm following where you're going. Give me an example of that.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, is the truth written on your heart?

[Gerald]

It should be. Yes.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, it should be. So then how do these sins of omission happen to begin with? Like, you know what's right, you know what's wrong? Right. It's written on your heart. So if you're accidentally not doing what's right, is it an accident?

[Gerald]

But aren't you going to be doing that, Andrew, from now until the day you die? What sins of omission?

[Andrew Wilson]

Sins, yeah, sure, I'll be doing sins. But the thing is, that doesn't mean I don't consciously understand. That's what confession is. Right. I'm confessing my sins of omission. Confessing my sins. But do you remember the things that I've done?

[Gerald]

One of them. Well, I shouldn't assume something. In Catholicism there is a state of grace. Right. I've been forgiven of my sins. I want to die in a state of grace. Forgive me for not knowing this, because I haven't studied this in a long time. But if I don't die in a state of grace according to Catholicism, and then I want to know what orthodoxy says. Does that mean I am no longer saved? Or does that. Is there some media, I guess, intermediate.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, what do you mean by grace here?

[Gerald]

Like my. Like I've been forgiven of my sins, I've confessed.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Gerald]

My final confession. Right. Last rites, I guess.

[Andrew Wilson]

Sure.

[Gerald]

Being performed. Is that necessary to maintain or be saved or to go to heaven when I die?

[Andrew Wilson]

No. Okay. And nobody, nobody can introduce necessity that way. Like, if you couldn't get your last rights because you're in a war zone.

[Gerald]

Right. Yeah, I thought about the same thing.

[Andrew Wilson]

I don't think you're.

[Gerald]

I don't think, like, what if I'm going off a cliff?

[Andrew Wilson]

I'm sorry, that's not condemnation immediately. But I guess what I'm getting at is like. And I think you can logically argue this both ways, so that's fair. I think you logically argue a sin of omission Maybe you actually didn't know. Right. But I think that that would defeat the purpose of a sin of omission. How could it be a sin if you didn't know? The sin of omission is like, you do know.

[Gerald]

You did know, but you chose not to.

[Andrew Wilson]

But you chose not to.

[Gerald]

Right? Okay, so it's a little more clear definition of it. And I think that's fair. I do think that Protestants have a big problem with this. And comment below, guys, let me know what you think. There does seem to be a, like, I feel good, therefore I'm going to walk down the aisle and say that I accept Christ. And it's like, hold on. It didn't say that I had an emotional response to a sermon, which can happen, Right. Or a worship, you know, conference, whatever it may be. Or a moment at a. What was the restaurant that you said?

[Andrew Wilson]

The Waffle House.

[Gerald]

Waffle House. Or at the. I was in the lobby of a Spirit Airlines and I saw my eyes flash before four miles. I get that that can happen to people, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking like an actual deep rooted belief. And in a lot of Protestant churches, the thing that bothered me so I was on a ministry team at one of my churches and I would be the guy that stands down there at the end of the church for people to come down and pray to accept Christ. If we did an altar call, I would go. And what I found in this particular church, and I ended up leaving the church shortly after this, was that if we had 10 people and eight were rededicating their lives, two people were being saved. Making that confession for the first time. And I saw a huge problem with that because I'm like, wait, rededicating your life? I understand the idea of rededicating and maybe saying, hey, I've been straying and wandering away from this. But that rule pretty much held 60, 70, 80% of every single one of those times. And I'm like, we're doing this wrong. Like, we're telling people that walking down the aisle is going to fix everything. And you just have to make a one time verbal declaration and not following.

[Andrew Wilson]

It up with this is how you should live, saying, it's a mind state. Why wouldn't you say that It's a sin of omission if you declared with your mouth and truly believed that Christ was your Lord and Savior, but then locked yourself in your home and shut yourself away from society and did no works at all, even though you could, for sure.

[Gerald]

Yeah. I think that's James's point. Like, faith has to have works that goes with it not to earn it.

[Andrew Wilson]

So that's the position, but to live it. That's the position of the orthodox, though. Right? It's faith and works. It can't be faith alone. It can't be sola fide.

[Gerald]

I think that's very clear in Scripture.

[Andrew Wilson]

But I think people can't be sola people, but it can't be sola scriptura either.

[Gerald]

Oh, come on.

[Andrew Wilson]

And let me explain. Let me give you the logical argument here.

[Gerald]

We're going to trash Martin again.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, but I got to try this. I'm going to try because I think I can bring you to my side on this.

[Gerald]

Don't you dare.

[Andrew Wilson]

If you can't read, which most people couldn't throughout human history, how do you learn the scripture?

[Gerald]

You don't have to. The heavens declare the glory of God so that no man can stand before God and have an excuse. Right. So creation testifies to God.

[Andrew Wilson]

So Native Americans were Christians.

[Gerald]

No, I'm not saying they're Christians. I'm saying that they would have been held accountable to know that there is a God just by the declaration of the creation.

[Andrew Wilson]

They would have been held to account for the action of good and evil from a Christian ethic. Even though there's Christians. Because the truth's written on your heart. Right.

[Gerald]

To know that there is a God. I want to be specific on that. To know that there is a God. Like that there is a God.

[Andrew Wilson]

Now, what happened prior to Christ cutting people's hearts out on the temple? They're going to hell. Right.

[Gerald]

Rough. I would imagine they're going to hell. They would be. They would have to. They would have to declare, like, hey, I can look around and see that this is not just happenstance.

[Andrew Wilson]

Then you're holding them to the Christian ethical standard.

[Gerald]

Why is that?

[Andrew Wilson]

Because how else would you make the determination that was wrong?

[Gerald]

I wouldn't say it's the Christian ethical standard.

[Andrew Wilson]

What other ethical standard is the Old Testament?

[Gerald]

That would be the Jewish ethical standard.

[Andrew Wilson]

Which would inform Christian ethics before.

[Gerald]

Christian ethics. Yes. So. But I would say.

[Andrew Wilson]

No, no, no.

[Gerald]

In this one case, I would blame the Jews.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, let's see if we can square this real quick.

[Gerald]

Yeah. No, I think it's an interesting argument.

[Andrew Wilson]

How is it. How do you hold them to the standard that they're going to hell unless you're judging them by Christian ethics?

[Gerald]

I don't. God does. Yeah, but not for me to say God tells me that's how the world works.

[Andrew Wilson]

You don't fake they're going to hell.

[Gerald]

I'm saying it doesn't matter what my opinion is. I'm saying that.

[Andrew Wilson]

What kind of cop out is that?

[Gerald]

It's not a cop out when I say it's God's opinion. Just on homosexuality. Do you think homosexuality is good or bad? It doesn't matter. What does God say about homosexuality? That's how you inform your opinion.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, right.

[Gerald]

That's what I'm saying. This is what God says, therefore that's what I believe.

[Andrew Wilson]

So then God must have some mechanics in their hearts. Have no idea that doing that was evil.

[Gerald]

I have no idea. Like I'm not trying. Just like you're trying to not make a salvation, a salvific or salvation claim against God.

[Andrew Wilson]

I'm going to make salvation claims about. About Aztecs who cut out human hearts and kick them down. They're going to hell.

[Gerald]

I imagine so. I'm just saying I'm not making it.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, they're going to hell.

[Gerald]

But what if they had a Charlie Manson moment right after cutting out the beating heart? This is wrong. I'm sorry. You know, like. Okay, maybe they're.

[Andrew Wilson]

For me to determine that, I'm going to have to assume. I'm going to have to make some suppositions here, some logical suppositions. The first one I'm going to have to make is that the truth is written on people's hearts and that they knew that that was wrong. And I'm judging them from the Christian standard. I think that's no other standard of ethics for which to judge another human being is a Christian except through those standards. Right, agreed. Then if that's the case.

[Gerald]

Or Jewish standards.

[Andrew Wilson]

Sorry, yeah. Then if that's the case. Right. How is it that now there's no sola scriptura now there's no Bible now there's no interpreter, there's no nothing. Right. So how do you make that judgment? Exactly. How do you make that declaration?

[Gerald]

Because that's what God has told us now. That we do have the Bible.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, but how do you know that.

[Gerald]

That'S what he said?

[Andrew Wilson]

Because you have the Bible.

[Gerald]

Now I see where you're going, you jerk. You're right. The Catholics got together and gave us the Bible just to piss you off. Yeah. All right, it is interesting.

[Andrew Wilson]

I feel like we can move on. But I want you to stew on that for the rest of your life.

[Gerald]

Well. And you're going to give me on my deathbed, Andrew was right. No, I think it's interesting because there are a lot of people who. We spend a lot of time on the wrong things in our lives, and we don't really evaluate. And we do this in politics. We talked about this with feminism when we did the Ash Wednesday. We talked about with a number of different things. We build on a foundation, and a lot of times we end up in a very kind of different place than that foundation would have initially told us we were going to. Right. We have foundational core beliefs that don't align with where we are. And you made a really. I thought it was a really good point on cognitive dissonance, where you're like, I'm not gonna let you up. Like, I have to destroy your foundation. Not because I hate you.

[Andrew Wilson]

Not because I hate you.

[Gerald]

I need your foundation to crumble so that you can come to a place of actually looking and evaluating this seriously looking at this and evaluating it seriously to see if that is actually true. And that's a painful process.

[Andrew Wilson]

And it's. Well, it's painful on my behalf, too, because, um, you know, for me, I don't. It's very difficult, especially modernity, to determine where the threshold is for grace.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

You know what I mean? Like, did I go too far?

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

Or did I not go far enough? Right.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

That's. It's actually a difficult line to determine. You know what I mean? And so, like, sometimes I've done whatever episodes where I know, like, by the time I was done, I just couldn't breathe. I'm like, this. It's so horrible what these people are saying and what they've done. You know what I mean? This type of thing that, like, stand there for a second and catch my breath and be like, man, you know, maybe actually I should have been way more brutal because maybe that would have, like, pierced that a little more.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

You know what I mean? But then another time, maybe I'm really brutal, and I'm like, do you ever apologize? I wonder if, like, if you thought.

[Gerald]

Maybe you were too brutal in a situation.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. Well, I mean, I. Yeah, there's been times where I said I'm sorry to people.

[Gerald]

Like, you're still wrong, but I'm sorry that I.

[Andrew Wilson]

No, no, no. There's. There's been times where I'm like, look, you know, maybe that was a little out of line, or I didn't mean it like that. You know, so I apologize or stuff. Yeah. I've done that. Yeah. Yeah.

[Gerald]

It doesn't seem like you're in any way Trying to, you know, win the argument for the sake of winning the argument. It's actually to either change lives or to put the information out there so other people see what truth is.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. Is that accurate? So I will try. The only time I attempt on purpose to win an argument for the sake of it would be for, like, debate prep or to play devil's advocate to get another person to understand the view or something like this. But when I'm actually debating with people and their ideologies, I am not trying to be vicious or things like this on purpose, but rather I'm trying to break the worldview down. Sometimes getting a person to listen is difficult.

[Gerald]

Right.

[Andrew Wilson]

It's difficult. And so you have to navigate, and every person's different. After thousands upon thousands of conversations, people all over the world, and thousands of debates, it becomes easier to judge a person, how to navigate those waters. Like, this person actually is going to respond better if I'm a little meaner, or this person's going to respond a little better if I, like, maybe frog, boil them like a frog. You know what I mean? Let the temperature slowly rise. You get that after a while. But especially early on. I'm sure I made tons of mistakes, you know what I mean? Because it just didn't happen.

[Gerald]

No, I understand. Like, I don't think it comes from a place of malice, is my point.

[Andrew Wilson]

It's never been. It's. Well, for me, it's never been malicious. And I always tell the women, even when I'm done with the podcast. And this is most debates I've ever.

[Gerald]

Buy your horse. No, I'm just kidding.

[Andrew Wilson]

Sometimes. But I'll often say, like you said, whatever podcast.

[Gerald]

I'm sorry, that seems to be.

[Andrew Wilson]

I would say, look, there's nothing personal here. This is not personal for me. You're not going to experience any community harassment from my community. We're not going to be bothering you. You know, I'm not going to be going on like these big trails to just try to destroy your life or things like that. I never have. I've never done that stuff. You know what I mean? I don't take it personally. My job is there to represent my view the best possible way I can. And the representation of those who think like me, that's my job and I'm going to do it the best way I possibly can.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

So it's not personal, but that those views are poisonous. They are poisonous and they do need to be destroyed.

[Gerald]

Yeah. So I think that's fair. And you know, the point that I was making that led into this is that far too often we are unwilling even in this realm. Like, I know. I know that I've spent a lot of time studying what I believe, and I would probably want to naturally defend it, whether it's right or wrong. I may not want to think about that at first and it may go, wait a minute. Because when you said Stu, like, typically, my thing is that I'll defend something because I have a belief in it. I try to know why I believe what I believe. If I have a belief that I don't respect, like, I'll. You'll pretty much see it on my face. I'm not 100% sure I'm saying, like, I kind of think this, but I haven't really thought about that. And I'm easy to kind of talk through it. Some stuff that I feel like I really do have good reason for believing. It'll take me a couple of days of really thinking about it and I'll evaluate that because I don't want to just go, well, I was right and he was wrong. Right. I don't think that's very.

[Andrew Wilson]

Even though in my case that is what is in fact true.

[Gerald]

100% not true, but nonetheless. But I would encourage people to do that because it's not a bad thing. It's a difficult thing to get comfortable doing, but it's very helpful to do that.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, logic.

[Gerald]

Get yourself out of a lot of traps, too.

[Andrew Wilson]

Logic is really merciless, especially when you start going through the confines of thinking and introspecting only using logic. You realize 90% of you is fake. Bullshit. You realize that maybe.

[Gerald]

How do people do that? So you said this the other day, and I wanted to ask you if somebody wants to try to get better at thinking like that or debating like that.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, classic logic operates off of three laws, right? The law of non contradiction, the law of excluded middle, and the law of identity. Okay, those aren't in exact order, by the way, but those are the three laws of logic. And they're making a determination that if anything's outside the bounds of this. Right. If you're making a conflation that like Andrew can be you, we've now violated the law of identity. You know what I mean? Or if a, it's a and also not a, it's a contradiction.

[Gerald]

Right?

[Andrew Wilson]

Right. But the excluded middle, where you're saying something's either true or false, it can't be both true and false. Right. Or, you know, it has to be one or the other.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

If you Start actually kind of training your brain to think in those terms. Right. That all propositions are true or false. You start recognizing most of them are false, including the ones you come up with.

[Gerald]

Yeah. How does that feel?

[Andrew Wilson]

It's not. It's not fun. It's terrible. It's terrible. Right. And it's the same thing when you start thinking about positions you have which are contradictory. When you. Especially when you ask people questions like, what would you do in this situation? Like here, I'll give you a good one. This one. This one will annoy you till the day you die.

[Gerald]

Bad Gummet. You already have one of those.

[Andrew Wilson]

Here we go.

[Gerald]

I already have a deathbed. Andrew was right.

[Andrew Wilson]

What else? In vitro fertilization.

[Gerald]

Yes.

[Andrew Wilson]

Is it moral or immoral? This is. In this case, we're talking about artificially putting semen into eggs. Right. Okay. And then freezing the eggs. Are those eggs human lives?

[Gerald]

Yes.

[Andrew Wilson]

Okay, so we're.

[Gerald]

I'd only say do it one at a time.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. So we're trying. We're in a fertility clinic. Okay. And there's tens of thousands of eggs and there's a big fire.

[Gerald]

Right.

[Andrew Wilson]

And there's a two year old on the ground screaming. You can get to 10,000 of these eggs or you can get to the two year old who's screaming.

[Gerald]

Two year old.

[Andrew Wilson]

Why?

[Gerald]

I have no clue.

[Andrew Wilson]

Right.

[Gerald]

But the two year old seems like the answer. I mean, other than obviously there's a living, breathing speaking to me.

[Andrew Wilson]

This is a great. Listen, I don't. There's no wrong answer here.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

Okay. But there's answers which sound wrong. And that answer sounds wrong because it sounds like what you're saying is you believe all of these lives over here are expendable to this life, which the abortionist would use to say that you must value this life more than those. But that's actually false. You're not actually saying that. Saying that you have some kind of like intuition towards this, but that doesn't actually mean that you're doing anything wrong because you're following your intuition here. There's actually no right choice. What's the right choice? Well, in a Christian athlete, you're not making a wrong choice by going for the two year old. And if it was my two year old, I'd be really happy. You know, I'd be really happy.

[Gerald]

But if you were someone who had eggs there, you'd be sad.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. You'd be very sad about that. But would they blame you? No, I don't think that they would. So. But the thing is is like, it's when you start thinking inside of those paradigms of like, do I actually judge these eggs as being the same life as that 2 year old? And he's like, why? And then you have to explore that. Right? You have to kind of dive in to your reasons behind that. Becomes very uncomfortable for you to note that you've never really kind of dove into the very beliefs that you have and why you have them. And that can be a very uncomfortable feeling.

[Gerald]

Very necessary, though. Look, we were supposed to. Maybe we'll have to do a part two of this because we were supposed to jump into some stuff about the Founding Fathers and how Protestants founded the United States. Here we go.

[Andrew Wilson]

We could do one more. I'm happy.

[Gerald]

You're welcome, world. We help save all of you. Where can people find you again, Andrew, if they want to support you?

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, you can find me at the crucible on YouTube. I have some high octane, very fun shows that I do over there most of the week. You can also find me on the Crucible video. Become a member there for all my back catalog and paleocristcon on Twitter. Thank all of you guys for tuning in. This was a lot of fun.

[Gerald]

Absolutely. We're absolutely gonna do this again. It's definitely been a lot of fun. I'm gonna have to stew on some stuff and I'm gonna blame you if I'm gonna be up at night reading books about this. And definitely on the deathbed.

[Andrew Wilson]

We're gonna. You know what, we're gonna bring you to the Deck site.

[Gerald]

Oh, no, please don't. Okay, guys, I have to go. Otherwise I'm gonna convert right now. We'll see you next week. Gerald apologizes, apologetics. It doesn't mean that.