Louder with Crowder: "Can a Christian be a Zionist? Gerald Morgan vs. Andrew Wilson Debate"

Date: August 22, 2025
Host: Gerald Morgan (guest hosting for Steven Crowder)
Guest: Andrew Wilson (The Crucible)

Overview

In this special episode, Gerald Morgan sits down with Andrew Wilson for an in-depth, honest, and nuanced debate about Christian Zionism — the theological, political, and historical justifications for Christian support of Israel. The discussion probes whether Christians are biblically mandated to support the modern state of Israel, dives deep into eschatology (end-times theology), and explores whether this support has real-world consequences. The episode includes notable references to recent interviews by Tucker Carlson and debates statements made by US politicians like Ted Cruz. Both participants strive to model how to have tough conversations without lapsing into extremes or hostility, emphasizing nuance, charity, and a quest for truth.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Difficulty of Discussing Israel

Timestamps: 00:00–03:06

• Gerald frames "Israel" as a polarizing third-rail issue, criticizing the tendency toward extremes (one is either labeled an "anti-Semite" or a "Zionist shill").
• He calls for nuance:

  “There is a huge, huge piece of ground in the middle where a lot of good conversation can happen and where you can actually get at the truth.” — Gerald (00:32)

2. Christian Zionism and Its Theological Roots

Timestamps: 02:08–03:50

• The debate kicks off referencing a controversial interview between Tucker Carlson and the Russian Orthodox nun Mother Agapea, who critiques Christian Zionism for its links to “rapture theology” and “accelerationism.”
• Mother Agapea claims Christian Zionist eschatology is not rooted in early Christianity, citing John Darby and the Scofield Reference Bible as 19th-century influences (02:44).

Notable Quote:

“The idea of having the thousand year kingdom is a heresy. ... The real push of all that comes from the 1830s, James Darby Scofield or John Darby Scofield. So it’s a new theology that has no basis in the foundations of Christianity." — Mother Agapea (02:44)

3. Tucker Carlson vs. Ted Cruz: What Does Genesis 12:3 Mean?

Timestamps: 03:50–05:55

• Gerald plays a heated exchange where Ted Cruz says Christians "are commanded to support Israel" on the basis of Genesis 12:3.
• Tucker presses Cruz on whether "Israel" biblically refers to the modern Jewish nation-state or something else. Cruz insists it does, but struggles to cite chapter and verse or define terms.

Notable Exchange:

Tucker: “You’re quoting a Bible phrase. You don’t have context for it and you don’t know where in the Bible it is, but that’s like your theology. I’m confused. What does that even mean?” (04:18)
Cruz: “Where does my support for Israel come from? Number one, because biblically, we are commanded to support Israel.” (04:33)

4. What is Christian Zionism — and Does Eschatology Drive It?

Timestamps: 09:16–21:36

• Andrew contends that large evangelical organizations like Christians United for Israel (CUFI) have deeply influenced Protestant support for Israel, often channeling support through eschatological lenses:

  “The reason that you have so much trouble having this conversation at all is because of organizations like CUFI, which have ... their tendrils in everything, trying to make sure that all Protestant apologetics revolve around the Ted Cruz framing.” — Andrew Wilson (09:27)

• Debate ensues over whether support for modern Israel is driven by accelerationist end-times beliefs (Andrew’s view) or by a more direct, literal reading of Genesis 12:3 to bless Israel (Gerald's explanation).
• Andrew challenges the logic behind Christian support: If Jews name a messiah who is not Jesus, it is "moving toward Antichrist" (13:12).

  “Why would a Christian Zionist who knows that and knows that the Temple Institute there and CUFI are moving towards naming [a] Messiah, explain that to me.” — Andrew Wilson (13:23)

5. Blessing Israel: Scriptural Basis and Misinterpretation

Timestamps: 19:00–28:52

• Gerald emphasizes that most Christians support Israel due to Genesis 12:3, even if this is a misinterpretation.
• Andrew argues that the logic ultimately ties back to prophecy and end-times acceleration.
• Gerald draws a line: “...just because events need to happen doesn’t mean that I am the one that is going to make them happen” (28:06).
• Both agree the notion that Christians must financially or militarily support Israel based on scripture is a misinterpretation or at least poorly defined.

6. Who is Israel? Religious Identity vs. Modern Nation-State

Timestamps: 33:17–41:38

• Andrew and Gerald discuss how, historically and theologically, the Church Fathers and New Testament writers interpret “Israel” as spiritual, not geographical — i.e., the Church is the continuation of Israel (see Galatians 3:29).
• Andrew: “None anywhere in church history can you find anybody, any Christians anywhere talking about how if Jews establish a nation, then that’s what Israel is. They always considered Israel to be us.” (33:38)
• Gerald points to misuse of “replacement theology” (the idea the Church replaced Israel), clarifying most mainstream theology is more nuanced.

Notable Quote:

“If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise. That makes it very, very, very clear, like, who is Abraham’s seed? Who are the sons of Abraham?... We didn’t start a new thing; this is the continuation of the thing.” — Gerald (34:44)

7. The Practical Impact of Christian Zionism & The Israeli State

Timestamps: 41:38–66:32

• Detailed historical exploration: Did establishing Israel fulfill its promise to protect Jewish people worldwide?
  • Andrew: Skeptical, arguing Western societal progress reduced persecution more than a state did.
  • Gerald: Defends Zionism by comparing global Jewish deaths before and after Israel’s creation; notes history of pogroms, anti-Semitism, and WWII atrocities.
• Discussion of how Israel has relied on Western security guarantees; whether centralizing Jews in one place is strategically wise.
• Both agree: the experiment stemmed from desires for safety and self-determination, but results are mixed and complex.

8. Israel, Gaza, and the "Win Condition" Problem

Timestamps: 67:40–78:23

• The present-day Israel-Palestine conflict is examined for its intractable "no-win" situation. Gerald argues that prolonging war (by not allowing a clear victory) only leads to more suffering.
• Andrew challenges whether the continuing existence of Israel as a state solves the underlying issues or simply creates more targets and international blowback.

“The reason people start from extremes... is either 100% supporting Israel no matter what because of Christian Zionism, or 100% hating them. And you can’t have that nuanced conversation where you and I are trying to.” — Gerald (78:23)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On polarization and the search for nuance:

  “We need to be able to have honest, very straightforward conversations about these issues that involve Israel ... But Israel seems to be the flashpoint right now, and we just don’t seem to have that ability. So that’s what we’re going to try to do today.” — Gerald (00:40)

• On the roots and dangers of “accelerationist” theology:

  “Christian Zionists and all Christian Zionists are accelerationists. They’re trying to accelerate ... the end times.” — Andrew Wilson (16:00)
  “But just because events need to happen doesn’t mean that I am the one that is going to make them happen.” — Gerald (28:06)

• On weapons and theology:

  “The government of Israel has spent millions of dollars funneling to the Temple Institute, that CUFI has used back channels ... It’s very clear that CUFI has sent tons and tons of money which has ended up in the hands of the Israeli government.” — Andrew Wilson (40:54)

• On the basic error in Christian Zionism:

  “You can’t really think that Genesis is referencing the modern nation state and its current government with Benjamin Netanyahu at the head of it. There’s no way to draw these parallels unless you’re just really not paying attention.” — Andrew Wilson (41:15)

• Defining Israel in the Christian context:

  “If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.” — Gerald quoting Galatians 3:29 (34:44)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Segment/Topic | |------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00–03:06| Introduction: The polarization around Israel debates | | 03:50–05:55| Tucker Carlson vs. Ted Cruz: Does the Bible command Christians to support Israel? | | 09:16–21:36| CUFI’s influence; Eschatology as a driver of Christian Zionism | | 28:06 | “Just because events need to happen doesn’t mean I am to make them happen.” | | 33:38–36:15| Theological/historical Christian definitions of Israel | | 41:38–54:58| Historical effectiveness: Did Israel make Jews safer? | | 67:40–78:23| The Israel-Palestine "win condition," war, and morality | | 78:23–84:32| The need for nuance, common humanity, future discussion |

Tone & Observations

• The debate is forthright, but remarkably respectful and thoughtful considering the volatility of the topic. Both speakers repeatedly stress the importance of nuance and the rejection of simplistic, tribalist extremes.
• Both also denounce theological error, be it mindless cheerleading for the modern Israeli state or demonization of Jews.
• The discussion mixes deep theological exegesis with grounded political and historical realities, making it accessible and challenging for believers and skeptics alike.

Conclusion

Both Gerald and Andrew agree that Christian support for Israel is complex: it is often poorly defined theologically, sometimes based on doctrinal error, and that it can have serious, real-world impacts. Rethinking what "blessing Israel" means biblically may be necessary, and both believe honest dialogue — informed, charitable, but unflinching — is vital. They end expressing hope for more such substantive debates in the future.

For listeners looking to understand the crossroads of politics, theology, and history around Israel — and how Christians in America fit into the conversation — this episode is both a primer and a case study in civil, informed disagreement.