← Louder with Crowder
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- [00:01]
Amazon Music Narrator
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- [00:34]
Gerald
Oh, hey. Welcome to gift wrapping. Whoa. So is Saldana.
- [00:37]
Gift Wrapping Assistant
Hey, can you wrap these, please?
- [00:39]
Jay Dyer
Wow.
- [00:39]
Gerald
IPhone 17s.
- [00:40]
Gift Wrapping Assistant
You splurged at T Mobile. You can get four iPhone 17s on them. The new center stage front camera is amazing for group selfies. It's the perfect gift for everyone.
- [00:48]
Gerald
I'm the worst. I only got my mom a robe.
- [00:51]
Gift Wrapping Assistant
Well, it's better than socks.
- [00:52]
Jay Dyer
So I have to trade in my old phone, right?
- [00:55]
Gift Wrapping Assistant
No AT T Mobile. There's no trade ins needed when you switch. Keep your old phone or give it as a gift.
- [01:00]
Jay Dyer
Incredible.
- [01:01]
Gift Wrapping Assistant
In fact, wrap up my old phone too, for my aunt Rosa.
- [01:04]
Jay Dyer
Forget that.
- [01:04]
Gift Wrapping Assistant
Aunt Liz will be jealous.
- [01:05]
Gerald
Sounds like my family drama.
- [01:07]
Gift Wrapping Assistant
Oh, I got it. I'll give it to my abuela. I'll take reindeer paper with. Hey, where are you going?
- [01:11]
Gerald
To T Mobile.
- [01:12]
Advertisement Voice
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- [01:41]
Gerald
Oh, thank. Oh, hell yeah. Dude, I love this stuff. My nose is messed up right now.
- [02:08]
Jay Dyer
I need to decongest it quick.
- [02:10]
Gerald
Mine too.
- [02:11]
Jay Dyer
Oh my gosh. Have you ever tried this stuff, man? You get a. You get a little stuffy nose every.
- [02:15]
Gerald
Once in a while. Yeah, this is the best stuff to have. Clear.
- [02:18]
Jay Dyer
Clear with an X.
- [02:19]
Gerald
Get it? You get it, right? Because your brother and the chair and this stuff's awesome, man.
- [02:24]
Jay Dyer
That was mine.
- [02:25]
Gerald
Thank you.
- [02:26]
Jay Dyer
Talking to you.
- [02:26]
Gerald
Chet.
- [02:26]
Hillsdale College Narrator
No.
- [02:27]
Jay Dyer
Come.
- [02:27]
Gerald
Come back here. Come back here. Shop clear.com and use promo code LWC20 for 20% off. Clear.
- [02:35]
Advertisement Voice
Wash your nose.
- [02:40]
Jay Dyer
Subject for today.
- [02:55]
Gerald
Good morning, Mug club. Thank you for joining us. We really do appreciate it. Part of the rumble lineup live. You do not have to switch that dial. I know it's not a dial. You don't have to like, click on anything or do a touchscreen, anything or whatever. Like many of you, though, I think I have. I've spent a lot of time lately researching issues related to my faith. I grew up Protestant, I grew up Baptist, and then became non denominational after kind of trying to find my place within what I believed. Like, I think a lot of adults end up doing where you are raised as a child in some kind of faith, and then it becomes your own at some point. And a lot of people right now, I think, are being drawn to this topic because of the world around them, the Israel conversation, the prevalence of feminism, a lot of times in the Protestant church, and all of the things that go with that. And I think right now it is probably more important to know why you believe what you believe than at any other time. And I know you could probably say that at a number of other times in history, so I get it. But I think for us right now, there's so much going on, there's so much misinformation, there's so much that is borderline truth that is just twisted just a little bit, that it is very important for us to understand why we believe what we believe. And so I thought it would be a perfect opportunity for us to dive in just a little bit deeper instead of just doing a quick segment on something to do an entire show. And that brings us to Gerald Apologizes, Apologetics. Gerald Apologizes, Apologetics it doesn't mean that. It really still does not mean that. But whatever, we'll get past it. When I started looking into these issues, and I'll be very clear, I've always studied scripture. I've always, and I say always, over the last 15 years or so, last 20 years, and I've enjoyed doing that, sometimes a little bit more, sometimes a little bit less. But when this conversation came up about Israel, I decided that I was hearing from too many smart people things that I would have not agreed with maybe five or 10 years earlier, things that I just had questions about. And so I thought it would be a great opportunity for all of us if maybe we just went out and found some of the very best minds out there on these topics. And all along the way, I discovered orthodoxy through Andrew Wilson, of all people. He's very orthodox, but I didn't expect that that would be the case. I figured I'd be talking to him about feminism or something like that. And it turns out that I really wanted to know, like, okay, what do the very best people that can articulate arguments it doesn't mean they're the smartest or anything else. They're very smart people. What are the very best people on the orthodox side say, on the Catholic side say, and on the Protestant side say, I want to hear the best arguments, and I want to understand steel manned arguments, not the straw man stuff you see online. And when I talked to Andrew and several other people, one name came up over and over again as somebody that I had to have on the show, and I said, okay, well, I'll start watching some of his content. And I did. And he's one of the best debaters that I have seen, and he covers a wide range of topics, from orthodox Christianity all the way to the occult in Hollywood. And that is Mr. Jay Dyer. Jay, thank you for being with us, sir. I appreciate you taking the time.
- [06:12]
Jay Dyer
Thank you, Gerald. Glad to be here. This is an awesome setup here.
- [06:15]
Gerald
Ah, thank you. He's very well dressed over there. I'm. I'm over here, you know, slumming it in my. My merch. It said. It says Jesus is risen, so maybe I'm cooler than you, but, you know, nonetheless, it's okay.
- [06:25]
Jay Dyer
It's a very evangelical shirt.
- [06:26]
Gerald
It's a very. Come on. Orthodox believe he's risen too, right?
- [06:30]
Jay Dyer
That's true. I'm dressed like Don Johnson over here.
- [06:32]
Gerald
So, I mean, you got it. The look works. I think it's good. Is his mic good? Are we. He's close enough. Perfect. All right. So Andrew was the one that kind of told me, like, hey, you got to check in on what Jay's doing. And a lot of it was related to, like, I just didn't understand Orthodoxy. I didn't really understand the differences between Orthodoxy and, say, Catholicism or certainly not Protestantism. I'd always approached it from a Protestant versus Catholic battle. I didn't realize that there was a, you know, a second front in the battle that had been going on for as long as it had. But I loved kind of diving into the early church. And we're going to talk about a few different things today, and we'll talk about the church and kind of Protestantism in a minute. But it was a very interesting way of learning about the early church, is seeing you debate people like Tim Gordon we were just talking about earlier. You've debated him twice. I'd seen both of those. I've seen you debate other people as well, and I think debates are a really interesting way, especially for those of you out there who are looking to really get deep into a subject and understand the different challenges Both that can be brought against Orthodoxy and that maybe you would level against Catholicism or even Protestants. It's a great way to dive into it. So like I said, we'll talk about Protestantism and its issues that I have as a Protestant. I have a Protestant past, but I don't know if a lot of people are as familiar as I am. And I know you've done stuff with Alex Jones and been on his show for a while. You're on a lot of different podcasts, a lot of different shows. But really quickly, if maybe this is your first time hearing from Jay and also the train that is behind us, tell people. There you go. You just did it and it happened. That was really good. My kids would be going crazy right now. They'd be like, train. It's very simple lives early on. But you started Protestant, became Catholic, and then converted to Orthodoxy 18 years ago, something like that. Brown, what led you down that path? Like, why was it just your parents faith that you started out in essentially, and then started kind of making it your own or what?
- [08:32]
Jay Dyer
To a degree, yeah. I was raised Baptist, and by the time I was in undergrad I was really interested in philosophy, so I was taking philosophy classes. I fell into the works of Greg Bonson and Cornelius Van Teel. So I got really interested in apologetics and I put a lot of years into that. Spent some time at Bonson Seminary, which is now defunct. But that gave me a really good grounding, I think, in debate. And so I really modeled my debate style after Dr. Bonson. And when I was at undergrad, I ended up debating the professors because they're all atheists. But I thank Greg Bonson for that and God's Providence, because I think I probably would have been brainwashed into the liberal education system had I not kind of been grounded in his argumentation and style. But then when I was there in undergrad, you're questioning things, you're wondering what's going on and where does the Bible come from? And I think the main question that really stuck with me was when I listened to Greg Bonson debate gerrymanatics and they were debating the canon of scripture, the role of tradition and the formation of the canon. And so that got me questioning church history. And I thought, well, I'm going to have to buy the church fathers. There's no other way around this. So I like saved up my.
- [09:39]
Gerald
Sounds very familiar to me.
- [09:41]
Jay Dyer
I saved up my wage, slave, paint store job, paychecks until I bought that thousand dollar church father set back in the 2000s. And so I just started plowing through it. I had a lot of time at work to read and I kept having these questions and ended up having another Baptist professor at a seminary that I was attending later on a Bible college technically. And I read City of God and I took all these questions that I wrote down from Augustine, City of God to this professor. And he was just kind of like, eh, you know, it was different back then. So I didn't really get significant answers to the question of the formation of the canon and all that. And at that time back in 2003, Internet apologetics was very. It was all Protestant versus Catholic.
- [10:24]
Gerald
Yeah.
- [10:24]
Jay Dyer
And I got heavily into that. There wasn't a whole lot of resources, basically like Catholic answers and then like, you know, a lot of different James White or Protestant type sites. So I got really heavily into Catholicism and then after about 10 years of that, attending the Latin Mass, being very staunch traditionalist, I got kind of disillusioned with the Vatican and Vatican 1 versus Vatican 2.
- [10:47]
Gerald
Yeah.
- [10:47]
Jay Dyer
The deeper that I got into church history and Roman Catholic dogma, I read Denzinger, which is the big fat sources of Catholic dogma. I just eventually saw it to be kind of fundamentally contradictory. So at that time, around 2007 or 2008, I was wandering and I found an Orthodox church nearby in Nashville, started visiting there. I didn't immediately convert because I had a lot of Thomistic and Calvinistic kind of baggage still in my head. I wasn't ready for Orthodoxy, but I found it really interesting and I thought, well, I'll start reading the Eastern Church Fathers. And several years later I'd say it took me about 10 years to be catechized. Right. Most people do like a one year catechesis. But for me it was like I was so spurgy about it, like I had to have every single theological question answered. So I kind of went through all that and gradually, around 2016, 17, I decided to finally become a catechumen and enter into Orthodoxy. So it was, it was a long road. But I actually think it's better sometimes to take your time, you know what I mean? Because you don't want to go into something and then have like a shock of, oh, I didn't get this question answered. Now what do I do? So it worked out for the good.
- [11:55]
Gerald
Well, in Protestantism we just, you know, you're in.
- [11:59]
Jay Dyer
Right.
- [12:01]
Gerald
I have problems with that.
- [12:02]
Jay Dyer
Very different.
- [12:03]
Gerald
I do have problems with that. I worked at a church, a charismatic church. We can talk about that side of things. And here's when it hit me there's two things that hit me. One about speaking in tongues, because I saw a lot of stuff that I just didn't deem to be even close to reality. And it came down to Paul in his admonishments. He's like, if somebody is going to speak in tongues, make sure that there's an interpreter God. It's not like a God of confusion. You don't want like a stranger. And I'm paraphrasing a stranger off the street coming and thinking, you guys are crazy, you know, like, make sure this happened. And I just looked around and at that time I still was very kind of heavily into that. And I go, that's not happening. Why are we not doing that? Like, this is confusion. There is a lot of chaos. And it's a very big church in the DFW area. I was like, I just don't know that I can really get behind this anymore. And the other thing was I worked in the new believer ministry and so I was in the prayer care and education department and I helped coordinate their, probably a couple of steps below Bible college level biblical courses. And I'd taken them and I'd done the two year program myself and I was helping coordinate it. I taught a class, a Christian's response to Islam that I had developed and set up. So Islam became very interesting to me back in2010, 2008. And I kept going to the new believers class right after church for every time they would do an altar call and everybody would be sitting in there and be like, hey, how many of you, is it your first time that you have accepted Christ? And about 20 to 25% of the hands would go up, which meant everybody else was a rededication. I'm like, what? What are we doing? This isn't how it's supposed to be. One, I don't even know what a rededication would be. I understand maybe you made an emotional response and now you're like, hey, that was not really a real thing, but it was consistent for years. And I was just like, I don't know what's going on. And so I ended up going to a different church that did a much better job, I think, of holding people accountable. But it did lead me down that road to start asking some questions. It seems kind of like you were asking a lot of those same questions and you want answers. You don't want somebody to just make you feel good. Like you want to actually get some of these things answered. So you've been since about 2017, you said or 2000.
- [14:19]
Jay Dyer
Yeah. I remember becoming a catechumen, I think, in 2017.
- [14:22]
Gerald
What is that for people who don't know what's a catechumen?
- [14:24]
Jay Dyer
So like you said, you know, like in the Protestant world, it's sort of like Billy Graham, come down to the altar, we'll give you a hot cheese pizza. If you say the sinners prayer, I'm just joking.
- [14:33]
Gerald
They gave pizza. That's a really good.
- [14:35]
Jay Dyer
It's a dumb joke. We'll give you Coca Cola Nadon and the Pepsi if you calm down. I'm from the south, so I can make that joke. The Orthodox is very different, I noticed, because even Roman Catholicism, you have what they call rcia, which is kind of the watered down Catholic version of the catechumen. And they were early church, which is usually one to three years, the early church. Most Orthodox churches maybe do a little bit slower than that or a little bit quicker, I should say. But for the most part, it's one to three years of basically learning the faith. You attend the liturgy, and we do that because we want to make sure that people are really into it, that they're making the right decision. Because a lot of times people. You know that. I know, I know that for say, mega churches, there have been studies where the turnover rate's pretty quick.
- [15:24]
Gerald
Like people.
- [15:25]
Jay Dyer
Yeah, so they knew that, I think from a vantage point of wisdom in the early church, that they wanted to make sure that people were serious. Also in the early church, there were spies. Right. The Roman Empire would send in spies. They would lie about the Christians, say that they were engaging in sexual whatever. They would try to steal the Eucharist. So there's a lot of reasons why. It's just a principle that developed that you want to take your time and have your questions answered, basically.
- [15:48]
Gerald
So if you're a catechumen, you're basically in training. Essentially you're being introduced to what the faith really is and what the requirements are.
- [15:54]
Jay Dyer
And usually there's a book now you.
- [15:56]
Gerald
Get to an end point where you. Is there like a ceremony that you go through?
- [16:00]
Jay Dyer
I mean, more so just the priest kind of does a blessing and says, you know, you have multiple catechumens, you.
- [16:05]
Gerald
Have to renounce Satan and spit. I've heard that before.
- [16:07]
Jay Dyer
When you join. Yes.
- [16:07]
Gerald
Okay.
- [16:08]
Jay Dyer
When you join.
- [16:09]
Gerald
When you join the catechumen or when you finish.
- [16:10]
Jay Dyer
No, no. When you're done and you're actually brought into the church.
- [16:13]
Gerald
I'm pro spitting. I'm just.
- [16:14]
Jay Dyer
You're spitting. Exactly.
- [16:16]
Gerald
Okay.
- [16:18]
Jay Dyer
It was funny to watch my Wife spitting when she was received.
- [16:22]
Gerald
I imagine sometimes that doesn't go as well as planned. And people dribble and it's like, oh, I promise I renounce Satan. Okay, guys, it's on my shirt now.
- [16:30]
Jay Dyer
Yeah, you're just drooling like a retard.
- [16:32]
Gerald
It's totally fine. Well, cool. I think it's a very interesting perspective because you have background in kind of all three and you've had to really defend the faith of all three. Not just like, I happened to be there because I happened to go to Notre Dame and I happened to be kind of steeped in Catholicism at a university, but not like I was defending the faith or converted to even Catholicism. I just kind of was a Protestant that would go up and put my arms and go, I can't take the Eucharist. I get it. So I'll be one of those guys. But having to defend it is a totally different thing. Moving on and we'll come back. Like I said to Protestantism, I wanted to talk about a subject that. Listen, I don't know if it's the time of year when you get to the fall and the occult and stuff like that becomes a much more interesting topic. I hate, with a passion, horror movies. And it's. I had like a very bad reaction as a kid to watching all of the Exorcists. And I think at the time that was maybe just one and two at night. And I literally would sneak into my parents room and sleep on the floor next to their bed for maybe two or three months. I was scared out of my mind. I would literally, my bed was in the corner in this house that we were living in, and I would sit in the corner back against the wall with the light on, like this. But, you know, that was three weeks ago and I'm fine now, so I really would. I was super scared. And so from then on, the spiritual component of this for me is just. It's very real. And I just don't like letting my brain go there, my mind go there. I'm not afraid that I'm going to be overtaken or anything like that. But I'm just like, I don't. I don't need to go there. So I've just avoided these things.
- [18:09]
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- [19:17]
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- [19:36]
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- [20:06]
Gerald
Listening to Tucker Carlson, I don't know, a few weeks ago or maybe a couple months ago, I can't remember when, but there was a guy that came on and he was talking about kind of the occult in Hollywood and all this other stuff. I'm like, I think I've heard somebody talk about that and it was you. I hadn't listened to any episodes on it, but you've written several books and I think they're all titled Esoteric Hollywood, right? And so you've got volume one, two and just came out with three. So guys, if you want to grab that. Where can they get that right now?
- [20:34]
Jay Dyer
Yeah, well, my website is jasonalysis.com and then there's a shop there and you know, you get signed copies from me. So don't buy from Jeff Bezos because there you go.
- [20:42]
Gerald
But so say the website name again. Jsanalysis.com jsanalysis.com so go there if you want to grab all of these books. But what is this book series? Is it just, is it conspiracy theories or is it like really kind of stuff that's going on in Hollywood that we should be more aware of?
- [20:57]
Jay Dyer
It's all the above and is a weird wild story of how that all came about. So when I was in grad school, I was studying psychological warfare and how film uses propaganda techniques. And I kind of accidentally stumbled down this rabbit hole. I didn't expect of eventually getting to this idea of the Pentagon, the military industrial complex, CIA, you know, all the.
- [21:19]
Gerald
Jay, you got to listen. They're going to turn the front.
- [21:23]
Jay Dyer
I was listening to Alex at the time.
- [21:24]
Gerald
Probably were.
- [21:25]
Jay Dyer
Yeah, he was, he would mention that kind of stuff. And even back in the 2000s when I first heard Alex, I was skeptical of that. And I would be like, yeah, the CIA folks, a lot of these actual spies, people don't understand.
- [21:36]
Gerald
That should be the natural response. You should start with skepticism and openly go and like, okay, is this true? Yeah, Acts 17:11 is pretty much in line somewhat with that.
- [21:44]
Jay Dyer
So I had this professor, he was like a left minded professor, but really into conspiracies from like the left vantage point. Yeah. And he was like, oh, we're going to do a class on Oliver Stone and reality. Which is an awesome college class.
- [21:57]
Gerald
Right.
- [21:57]
Jay Dyer
Because we watched all Oliver Stone films and then we tried to compare them to like the actual historical accounts to see where they were off and whatnot. And I kept encountering this idea that like there is Pentagon, CIA connections to Hollywood. And right around that time, 2003, 4, somewhere in there, the movie the Recruit came out with Al Pacino and Colin Farrell. And there was explicitly, I think on the DVD commentary, interviews with Chase Brandon, who was the CIA liaison to Hollywood. And he consults and he helps and they, you know, change the script. Well, I, somebody said, hey, there's a book called Pentagon in Hollywood. Check this out. Trisha Jenkins has a book called CIA on Hollywood. These are all academic texts, right. Because I was in academia, so I wasn't in the conspiracy world with, for that stuff. I was in academia. But I'm listening to Alex Jones here after class, right? And he's like, folks, the military decimal complex, they run Hollywood.
- [22:49]
Gerald
I called 9 11, it's on video.
- [22:51]
Jay Dyer
Go watch, go watch. So I was like this, this overlaps perfectly. And I remember having all these conversations with the professor and the professor was like, yeah, of course they have a connection to Hollywood. So I went hardcore into studying that and took other film classes. I was taking classes on, you know, history of like geopolitical CIA operations type stuff. And I was just noticing this amazing overlap that had only been written about by a couple nerdy academics that nobody's going to read.
- [23:20]
Gerald
Yeah.
- [23:20]
Jay Dyer
So I Wanted to write something a little more, like, for the main, you know, pop audience. And I also was taking lit classes and I don't want to get too nerdy, but, like, if you take a lit class, you do what's called a close reading where you read Flannery o' Connor or Dostoevsky and you kind of decode the symbolism.
- [23:37]
Gerald
Yeah.
- [23:38]
Jay Dyer
So I wanted to do that with film but also have, like, this, you know, what's actually going on in Hollywood that isn't just intelligence agencies but also covers cults because you have a lot of these directors, a lot of these actors are into satanic cults.
- [23:50]
Gerald
Weird stuff, man.
- [23:51]
Jay Dyer
We're super weird stuff. And all of that turned out to be real. I mean, not everything, but much of it.
- [23:56]
Gerald
More than you would think.
- [23:57]
Jay Dyer
More than you would think. More than you think. Exactly. So I tried to just document it from a kind of an academic perspective which people hadn't really done but also make it kind of a pop thing. So the first book deals with directors. It's kind of classed according to Kubrick's films. Spielberg, Hitchcock, Oliver Stone. They're all in there. And it turned out really good because a lot of essays, a lot of, like, decoding symbols in film because people don't realize that, like, film is packed with that kind of stuff. Yeah.
- [24:30]
Gerald
And I know in Oliver Stone's jfk, like, at the very end where the Jews pop up out of the tunnel and then shoot the president and then pop back down right there. Right. That's the. The latest and greatest. Right. Is that the Jews killed jfk. So anyway, I told you to be serious and not do accents. And then here I am doing accents and making.
- [24:47]
Jay Dyer
Well, I was about to do a Jewish accent, but I don't know if, like, would. I get it. This guy over here looks like he. This guy might beat me up. I don't know.
- [24:52]
Gerald
Yeah.
- [24:56]
Jay Dyer
So the second book was organized more thematically where I got into the history of organized crime in Hollywood.
- [25:02]
Gerald
Yeah.
- [25:02]
Jay Dyer
But it's not just history and scandals. And it's not like a who's Sleeping with who? Kind of book. It's more so arranged around the film, the directors, the producers, their worldview and what the film is saying. Whether it's sometimes revelatory and sometimes propaganda.
- [25:18]
Gerald
Right.
- [25:18]
Jay Dyer
So, like, I cover the Aviator and Howard Hughes's role in kind of being one of the early magnates that was putting out propaganda films. Because people don't realize, like, they were doing propaganda as soon as the camera was invented.
- [25:31]
Gerald
Give us. Give us an example. Like of a propaganda film. Because I think everybody thinks Goebbels, like, okay, propaganda. He obviously didn't invent it, but, you know, one of the best probably in history at it. So give us a good example that people might be able to reference.
- [25:43]
Jay Dyer
So the Soviets did it, Bolsheviks did it, Nazis did it, and Americans did it. Everybody used the camera for particularly wartime propaganda, even back in the nineteen teens and twenties. So, Howard. One of Howard Hughes's first films was Hell's Angels, which is just a war propaganda film. But as you get up into the 40s, and this is something that I kind of had to add to part three was when I was running the first two. I wasn't really steeped in Noir in the 40s era, so I went pretty deep into that and started noticing how many Humphrey Bogart films are actually like World War II propaganda films. That you don't know it, you don't notice it. And that's because, as I put in Part three, there's. There were certain British intelligence operatives that had kind of set up an office of liaisonship with Hollywood as well. It's called the Quarter Circle. Alexander Korda, very close friends with Hitchcock. And their whole role was to make sure that America took the Allied side and was involved in the war. And I mean, I'm not. I'm not pro Hitler. I'm very anti eugenics and all that.
- [26:45]
Gerald
Oh, but Britain needed us to.
- [26:46]
Jay Dyer
Britain needed. Exactly Britain.
- [26:47]
Gerald
It was an existential threat to them. So they had to have us. They had to have whatever method.
- [26:51]
Jay Dyer
Exactly.
- [26:51]
Gerald
So that makes sense.
- [26:52]
Jay Dyer
So these. These British writers and intelligence operatives, they're called the Irregulars. So this is people like Noel Coward. It's people like Ian Fleming. So my graduate work, graduate work actually focused on Bond. So I was very interested in Ian Fleming and how they were. They were crafting James Bond as Cold War propaganda because he's kind of a Nietzschean, Western ubermensch, sort of capitalist figure. Anyway, so all of that goes into these books, but it also highlights the overlap of cults, intelligence agencies and cults oftentimes overlap which people don't know. Yeah, it's not schizo. It's actually true. Like, for example. I'll give you an example.
- [27:30]
Gerald
They were like, this guy's already schizo.
- [27:32]
Jay Dyer
So Aleister Crowley, for example, the most famous Satanist of the last century.
- [27:35]
Gerald
Yeah.
- [27:36]
Jay Dyer
He worked for British intelligence as a. An asset. And he would do like provocateur type stuff for World War I. After that, British intelligence actually call on him sometimes to do stuff for these little kind of goofy side missions. And people don't know that. He also was really close to Aldous Huxley. They used to party and do drug orgy stuff together.
- [28:01]
Gerald
Yeah.
- [28:01]
Jay Dyer
So he actually has an influence on the counterculture. He has a huge influence on Hollywood. A lot of directors, especially the sort of really GROSS Avant garde 1960s counterculture people like Kenneth Anger. And we don't know about Kenneth Anger or care about him, but he made these avant garde films all based on Crowley's satanic ethos like Lucifer Rising, that kind of stuff, which influenced a ton of directors today. So even though we're kind of getting it secondhand, people don't realize that today's, you know, normal sort of producers and directors are very. Are coming from a very crowly and ethos.
- [28:36]
Gerald
Yeah.
- [28:37]
Jay Dyer
And all. That's what I cover.
- [28:38]
Gerald
That's awesome. So, I mean, maybe a very practical way to look at this and tell me if I'm making the right connections. Just as a propaganda thing. All of the LGBTQ stuff that we saw kind of foisted on us in all the different movies, whether it was a kid's movie, whether it was supposed to be kind of like a Marvel film or something like that, where it's superheroes, it's like, okay, but all of this stuff was constantly pushed. Would that be kind of a very clear, easy example to be like, that's the kind of stuff that happens. So if you see it over here, just understand that there are other kind of interests at play that maybe they would use it for over here. So is there. Is there one film that maybe everybody you would think most people have seen that has some propaganda elements to it like that? Would it be an Oliver Stone's JFK kind of thing? Would it be something that you can point to? And I don't know what it would be in that movie. I'm just saying, you mentioned Oliver Stone. Is there a really good example that people could look at and go, oh, my gosh, I never thought about it that way?
- [29:39]
Jay Dyer
There are many a couple that come to mind is, I don't know if you remember the movie Wag the Dog. Have you ever seen that?
- [29:45]
Gerald
I don't think I've seen it, but.
- [29:46]
Jay Dyer
Everybody should watch Wag the Dog, even though it's a little bit older. It's actually kind of a movie about what I'm talking about in books. Right. So the movie is about directors working with the CIA to make a movie, and the movie's propaganda.
- [29:59]
Gerald
Yeah.
- [30:00]
Jay Dyer
So it's a meta kind of narrative of a movie about a movie. And it has Dustin Hoffman, Robert De Niro. Robert De Niro is actually playing the sort of Chase Brandon, Milt Bearden, CIA liaison guy to Hollywood. And he calls the shots. He kind of like, tells them, you're going to do this. You're going to put this in here, this person is going to die, you know, etc. Which is real. I mean, not in every movie. But beyond that, I think one of the key films to watch is Eyes Wide Shut, because I've gotten to know Vivian a little bit, Kubrick's daughter, and she texts me back and forth and DMs and whatnot. She says she kind of implicitly thinks that my analysis of Aizawa shot pretty much nailed it. Because there's this nerdy subculture. So there's a nerdy subculture where people are, like, trying to figure out.
- [30:48]
Gerald
I'll admit that I saw it. Password is Fidelio. Well, there's a wine called I Own a Wine Business. And one of the wines from Realm Sauvignon Blanc is called Fidelio Sauvignon Blanc. And I'm like, I know that word.
- [31:01]
Jay Dyer
One of the wines is called Sex Orgy.
- [31:02]
Gerald
Well, much less, you know, subtle. Hidden. So, yeah, okay, so what. What's the. The hidden stuff there?
- [31:10]
Jay Dyer
So. So, yeah, that one, for example. I mean, Kubrick is kind of. And I think Cooper's a conflicted character. Like, he's not always fighting for truth. Sometimes I think he was kind of, maybe unintentionally kind of putting out propaganda for the system. I'm a big critic of 2001. It's a very. Yeah, anti Christian, Luciferian evolutionary narrative. I don't. I don't particularly like it, but I think maybe as he got older, he was kind of seeing, you know, and hinting at things like child. Child trafficking. You know, the theme of the Lolita pedo stuff is very prominent throughout Kubrick films. I think on purpose. And I think by the time of Eyes Wide Shut, he's kind of showing, like, this is, you know, upper middle class. People think that they're at the top of the totem pole. But then there's this other class of, like, you know, super elite that many of times are into occultic things is kind of reminiscent of, like an Epstein type of thing as well. So that was always my read on Eyes Wide Shut. So in that sense, I think it's very revelatory. But then for just strictly propaganda, I definitely think Ian Fleming and the whole Bond canon is totally propaganda. Because what happens is that a lot of the things that SPECTRE is doing, which is the international enigmatic terrorist organization, like our global elites, you know, the Klaus Schwab type figures, they're kind of like that. Yeah, I mean like they actually do this. And Ian Fleming was involved in high level British naval intelligence operations, psyops and so forth. So he was writing into the stories, a lot of the real operations that he went through and what he saw.
- [32:41]
Gerald
Yeah.
- [32:42]
Jay Dyer
And obviously he's coding it because the British have a national Security act that they can't explicitly stay. So. So they put it in fiction.
- [32:50]
Gerald
Yeah.
- [32:50]
Jay Dyer
So a lot of British spy fiction has always had real operations, real stories, and we have some of that in the US as well. But more so the British spy fiction is that way. So I mean, Spectre, the recent Daniel Craig Bond film, is a good example of this where it's giving you a lot of truth about how things really work. And this sort of international surveillance, NSA type thing, they're setting up to spy on everybody, to control everybody. The Christoph Waltz character plays, right, this sort of blow filled spy character, but at the same time, right, like they're always. It's projecting it onto people that are not the real sort of characters. Right. It's going to be, oh, the Russian. It's, it's the Russian operatives. Well, but what about Klaus Schwab? You know what I mean? That's like, that's more of a fit. Yeah, yeah.
- [33:33]
Gerald
Interesting stuff. I, I don't know. I'll have to dive into some of the books and do you, have you done, you said you've done some podcasts on this is it stuff where you've interviewed. You just kind of walk through some of these things over the years.
- [33:43]
Jay Dyer
Yeah, we've done quite a few on that.
- [33:45]
Gerald
Okay, so where's the best place to find you? Is that at J. Dyer on YouTube for the videos? Do you go to your website? What's the, what's the best way.
- [33:52]
Jay Dyer
All of my content is on the website janalysis.com but we do constant live streams. So. And we do everything from movie analysis, geopolitics, history, literature analysis, all that. But we also open it up to like open calls. So I get people who just want to debate all the time and I don't mind, I'll debate anybody. So people call in the debate and we do that all on my channel, Jay Dyer.
- [34:12]
Gerald
Okay, perfect. And then also J underscore D007X.
- [34:17]
Jay Dyer
Yeah.
- [34:17]
Gerald
Is there, is there some like, you know, propaganda going on here?
- [34:20]
Jay Dyer
No, I started. I Started that Twitter back when I was in college working on the Bond grad stuff, right? So I was. I was reading a bunch of Bond novels and Ian Fleming's History and British spy stuff. And I was like, all this Twitter things popping off. I'll just randomly put that. Also my email. Nobody understands. Like, that email was created, like, back a long time ago. And it's Tony Danza. And so I get all these people, like, just. Do you work with Tony Danza? Angela, Samantha, Mona? And I was like, no, I know it's just a stupid name that we picked. Like, but people think that I'm associated with Tony.
- [34:55]
Gerald
Listen, if we're all confessing stupid screen names, I'm sure we all have stories. My AOL Instant messenger name, and I will explain this. This will be clipped out of context. These people have no shame. Even though I. CEO is part of my title. Whatever. It's Indie sucks you too. Okay. So I was trying to get a screen name, and I didn't. You know, I wasn't on AOL Instant messenger or anything like that. I'm like, we. I was at Notre Dame my freshman year. We had just lost. And so I was like, indie sucks. I was pissed, right? And I was. I played football for him, you know, And I was. You know, I don't think I was on the traveling squad or anything like that. And I. I didn't have an illustrious career. Don't worry, I'm not making more of it than I should. Then that name was taken ironically enough, and all the variations like, indie sucks 88, you know, number and all that stuff, it just didn't work. And so I was listening to U2, and I think, like, the Joshua Tree album was like, right next. I was like, all right, indie sucks U2. And then I didn't realize until after having that screen name for a little while, it's like, oh, oh, oh, no. You can really prioritize the sucks U2 part as opposed to the indie part. And you end up with not what I was trying to say. So I get that screen name sometimes are a little different. Maybe I confessed a little too much there. I don't know. I feel a little vulnerable right now. I don't think it's still active, though. Okay, so check out the esoteric Hollywood parts. One, two, and three. Part three just came out. So make sure you guys go grab that. A couple of topics. And when I originally started thinking about doing a show with you and kind of having you on, a lot of it was to discuss different opinions on Protestants and orthodox. And I'll be very honest, it has been really hard to find somebody that I really think articulates the Protestant case as well as there are people that can articulate Catholicism and orthodoxy. I think Dr. Gavin Ortland's probably one of the best, if not the best, that I've seen. At least I feel like I understand him a lot more clearly. And I think he does a pretty good job of articulating his views, whether they're agreed to or not. He just does a really good job with it. Obviously, Tim Gordon is going to be on, and then Trent. What's his name?
- [37:10]
Jay Dyer
Trent Horn.
- [37:11]
Gerald
Trent Horn. Very good at debating as well. Is there somebody that you would say that you found either on the Protestant or Catholic side, not that you agree with them, but they do a really good job of articulating their case, but also agreeing with. Like, if there is a critique that you bring, they're honest about addressing it. Because I think that's important, too, because a lot of people just deflect, like, yeah, you've got me here. I don't want you to. I'll just move on to something else.
- [37:33]
Jay Dyer
Good question. I guess the mantle has probably fallen to Gavin Orland.
- [37:38]
Gerald
He's sort of on the Protestant.
- [37:39]
Jay Dyer
Most people think he's probably like, the. The guy.
- [37:43]
Gerald
Yeah.
- [37:43]
Jay Dyer
I mean, Ruslan says that, you know, pretty much everybody says that.
- [37:47]
Gerald
I found him organically, by the way, just. Just searching around for different people and stumbled across it. So. Yeah, it's good to hear that.
- [37:54]
Jay Dyer
I mean, you know, the Catholic apologetic world is interesting because there's not a whole lot of people that are really out there vocal doing apologetics, except for people like, you know, Trent and Tim Gordon.
- [38:07]
Gerald
I mean, there are another guy at Ybarra.
- [38:09]
Jay Dyer
Well. But he just focused on the papacy.
- [38:11]
Gerald
Okay.
- [38:12]
Jay Dyer
So I don't know if he'll, like, for example, if it's other areas, he'll kind of shy away from that.
- [38:17]
Gerald
Okay.
- [38:18]
Jay Dyer
I've asked to, you know, have discussions about Vatican I, Vatican 2, and it's. Well, I'll just kind of focus on the papacy. So, I mean, I guess if it's a papacy debate, it could. It could probably be Eric, But, I mean, Matt Frad doesn't really do debates, so he's. I don't know if he would really do the Catholic position. It's probably Tim Gordon.
- [38:35]
Gerald
Yeah.
- [38:35]
Jay Dyer
Is best I could think of.
- [38:36]
Gerald
Okay. What about on the orthodox side? Other than Jay Dyer? Of course.
- [38:42]
Jay Dyer
It'S interesting. In our domain, we've got several people that focus very heavily on certain areas. Like we've got a guy like Kai over at Orthodox Shahada. He's super good with Islam. Him and Louis are really good with that. Ben Luigi on Twitter is really good with the papacy. Specifically our buddy UBI Petras, really good with the papacy. I think UBI recently debated Abara on Matt Frad's thing.
- [39:07]
Gerald
Yeah.
- [39:09]
Jay Dyer
And then we've got people that kind of focus on, you know, essence energy. So it's, it's more niche focused on our side. Perry Robinson, really good with sola scriptura, sola fide, that kind of stuff.
- [39:22]
Gerald
Okay.
- [39:23]
Jay Dyer
But it's, I guess it's just fallen kind of to me to be the guy that debates more broadly. So. But yeah, I mean, I'm sorry, I don't mean to be slight. I'm probably missing somebody. They're going to be like, what did Dard name me? Why didn't he name me? I just can't think of.
- [39:39]
Gerald
We talked about it beforehand. There were seven other names. Go ahead and figure it out amongst yourselves. I guess he just didn't want to say it on air and give you the shines. So, no, I think it's interesting because the next topics that I want to dive into will kind of relate to this. Again, I'm encouraging people to go out there and listen to this. I've never learned as much as I do from listening to debates and sometimes they're very long and they can get kind of in the weeds on certain topics. But that's usually kind of a call to me to dig a little deeper into these subjects because I'm not as familiar with iconography or any of the, the arguments around that or the split in the filioque. I didn't even know that what it was. I was just like, I have no idea what you guys are even talking about. I didn't realize there was a split with orthodoxy and there was all this going on. One of the. Listen, Protestants, like, you got to just like, I'm a Protestant. I'm not saying you should not be Protestant. This isn't intended for that. It's more intended to encourage Protestants to have a grounding in their faith and to start studying something that I think we've unfortunately walked away from. And that's early church history. That's kind of what the church fathers taught, what they understood faith to be. The wrestling that they had with it, the battles, like physical bloody battles that these groups of people had over these ideas so that you can at least understand where people are coming from. And it helps inform I think your faith and your understanding of scripture and I think Gavin did a great job of saying, well, Sola, scripture doesn't mean only scripture. Even though that kind of is is literally what it translates to.
- [41:07]
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Jay Dyer
Welcome to gift wrapping.
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Gerald
Whoa. Soy saldana.
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Gerald
Wow. IPhone 17s.
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Jay Dyer
We got my mom a well it's.
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Gerald
Better than socks so I have to.
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Jay Dyer
Trade in my old phone, right?
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Jay Dyer
Incredible.
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Gift Wrapping Assistant
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- [42:13]
Gerald
Sounds like my family drama.
- [42:15]
Gift Wrapping Assistant
Oh I got it. I'll give it to my abuela. I'll take reindeer paper with hey where are you going?
- [42:20]
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- [43:43]
Gerald
That is the only infallible thing and that these other things are very important. And when he said that, I was like, that's what Protestants need to hear. Is that second part. Because we've heard a lot of, you know, focus only on Scripture, but we need to hear, like, hey, we've left out this whole church history thing completely. I've been a Protestant my entire life, and I've not spent hardly any time. I don't think I've ever heard a church father mentioned in church. Right. When I was Protestant. No. Yeah. So I think we've just done ourselves a bit of a disservice. And one of the reasons that I want to talk about Protestantism and let me, let me start with this very recently, and I didn't plan on talking about this. It's not all about the Jews, I promise, every single time. But we are going to talk a little bit about Israel, because I think this highlights kind of like I was asking for an example of a movie where you could look at it and go, ah, there's some propaganda, there's some occult. This highlights the problem in Protestantism very, very clearly. And not because you need to fall down on one side or the other necessarily. But most people don't know why they believe what they believe. Remember that. That is going to be something that is recurring. Ted Cruz got in trouble recently when he went on a podcast with Tucker Carlson and couldn't really, you know, articulate his point about I will bless those who bless Israel and I will curse those who curse Israel. And I think that's very indicative of people in the Protestant church, in the evangelical church specifically, they have this kind of drilled into them, but they don't know where it comes from. They don't know what it means. They don't understand any scriptures tied to it or really what to do with it. And we covered that. I talked about that with Andrew Wilson when that happened. Well, he was at the Christians United for Israel conference recently, and anti Semitism was brought up, but not from people on the left, from people on the right. And here's what he had to say. The danger that I want to highlight to you tonight is not anti Semitism on the left, it is anti Semitism on the right. And I'm here to Tell you, in the last six months, I have seen anti Semitism rising on the right in a way I have never seen it in my entire life. Listen, CUFI is extraordinary. The work that CUFI does is desperately, desperately needed. But I'm here to tell you, the church is asleep right now. The church is asleep. So CUFI or Kufi? I think Kufi is more fun to say. But either way, that is. What is it? Citizens United for Israel or is that. Did I get it all right?
- [46:13]
Jay Dyer
Yeah, that's it.
- [46:13]
Gerald
Nice. John Hagee's thing. I think there's like 10 million ish members or some giant number of members here in the United States. And he's Ted Cruz, who on the Tucker Carlson podcast said he went to. To become a senator to be the staunchest supporter of Israel in the Senate. His words, not mine. Go look it up. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with wanting a strong relationship with an ally. That's fine. But when you make that kind of your whole thing, people rightly ask questions like, whoa, wait a minute, I'm sorry. I thought it was to really support and represent the people of Texas, where you're a senator from one of the senators. And it turned out that he got into a lot of trouble for that. But I just thought you might have a comment or two on this. The thing that stuck out to me the most as a Protestant saying that the church is asleep to anti Semitism is one of the most crazy things that I think I've ever heard in my life. I think the church is fully awakened to that and fully on guard and to some degree, oversaturated, brainwashed, whatever you want to say about the amount of support that Israel needs from specifically the church. Like, I don't. I don't see this as an area of concern that the church is asleep on right now. Do you agree?
- [47:29]
Jay Dyer
The blood moon pies of Israel.
- [47:31]
Gerald
Oh, boy. John Hagee, blood moon pies. What is that?
- [47:36]
Jay Dyer
Well, he always has all the blood moons.
- [47:38]
Gerald
Oh, okay. Yeah.
- [47:39]
Jay Dyer
My joke is, because he's a sort of portly character. The blood moon pies.
- [47:43]
Gerald
Okay, now, see, they just need my jokes.
- [47:45]
Jay Dyer
Like, that takes.
- [47:45]
Gerald
They.
- [47:46]
Jay Dyer
They take.
- [47:46]
Gerald
You know, there's layers.
- [47:47]
Jay Dyer
30 seconds to settle in, which is.
- [47:49]
Gerald
What you want your jokes to do.
- [47:50]
Jay Dyer
Like, the blood. Like the moon pie in the gut. Like, it takes time to settle in. But yeah, so this is a crazy one. I mean, you know, we cover this both from the orthodox patristic view of the nation state of Israel, the modern nation state of Israel. From its founders. I've done a lot of research on reading Moses Hess, Theodore Herzl, Heim Weitzman, the original sort of Zionist founders, they had a socialist utopian idea. It was not really religious, maybe kind of just a little bit. So the, you know, the modern nation of Israel is a complex thing that was put there by the British Empire.
- [48:28]
Gerald
Right.
- [48:29]
Jay Dyer
It's a British imperial outpost to be a strategic arm of what they wanted at that time. When they carved to the Middle east the Sykes Picot Agreement and all that.
- [48:37]
Gerald
Yeah, they promised it to the Arabs as well, would overthrow the Ottomans and a little bit to the French, but nobody really cares about the French anyway. So just to be clear, so just screw one people group. They screwed kind of everybody.
- [48:48]
Jay Dyer
It's super complex with a history and nuanced. And of course, this is a domain that nobody wants to be nuanced. And it's just like you picking the black guy or the white guy. Right?
- [48:56]
Gerald
Exactly.
- [48:57]
Jay Dyer
Spy. Spy versus spy. Right. Black or white. But no, there's not in geopolitics, good guy, bad guy. It's all nuance and power relations. It's real politics. So from the Orthodox perspective, the Orthodox Church is the third largest landholder in Israel. So obviously we wouldn't want it to be annihilated or caliphate or we don't want it to be Muslim. We don't want it to be annihilated by some apocalyptic Antichrist, nuclear war. You know what I mean? So we have a nuanced position, but also the Orthodox Church in Israel is persecuted and suffers. They just took one of the districts and turned it into like a gay district. Took it from some Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox, which aren't the same as us. But regardless, it's very difficult. There's not a good guy, bad guy. Except that I would be against the Zionist position because I think it's an atheist socialist position.
- [49:53]
Gerald
So articulate the Zionist position. Now you brought it up. What does that mean? Because I think it's thrown around as a pejorative. Right now you're a Zionist, like, okay, well, what does that mean?
- [50:02]
Jay Dyer
Well, the original Zionist, like Moses Hess, like if you read his book Roman Jerusalem, he's very explicit that he's not that religious. It's more like a. He's more. He says he's a Hegelian, Spinoza guy. So he believes in like pantheism and he believes in dialectics and he believed that the founding of a nation state of Israel would allow the world to be saved through political socialism. So he's not religious per se.
- [50:31]
Gerald
Yeah.
- [50:31]
Jay Dyer
I mean, he doesn't outright deny God's existence, but he's like, yeah. You know, this is really just. Yeah. And then Herzl and Weizmann had very similar types of ideas. So the nation state is this geopolitical project. And if you go into the history of the Rothschilds, they're actually. They weren't into it. They didn't want to be involved in politics. They originally wanted to buy some of the land from a Turkish sultan.
- [50:54]
Gerald
Yeah.
- [50:54]
Jay Dyer
To have pilgrimage sites for Jews. But eventually it becomes more and more of a politicized project through the behest of Lord Milner and people. Balfour Declaration, all that in the British Empire. And so it becomes a very charged situation. And amongst the British establishment, you have the Arabophiles, which is a bunch of the spies like T.E. lawrence, Gertrude Bell, St. John Philby. They were all super pro Wahhabi. Pro Muslim.
- [51:22]
Gerald
Yeah.
- [51:22]
Jay Dyer
Phil be supposedly converted even to Wahhabism. And then you had this other side who were pro Zionists, and that was like Lord Rothschild and I think Milner and some of the others. And so there was a split amongst the imperial establishment as to where to go with the nation of Israel. So they came with this plan which was supposed to be sort of a partition, dual state type of thing. And that ended up obviously not working out. I have a more conspiratorial take that I think they always wanted sort of a powder keg there.
- [51:49]
Gerald
Who always wanted that?
- [51:51]
Jay Dyer
The sort of Milner, Fabian Socialists Inner society of the British establishment. So you can read a book. Cecil Rhodes Last Will and Testament. And he talks about all this. He's like, we're gonna set up this new kind of Fabian socialist Model World Federation. That's kind of my theory about what's really going on in the world.
- [52:11]
Gerald
But you gotta do in the Alex Jones voice at that point, the folks is favorite socialist.
- [52:15]
Jay Dyer
They've got us all locked down. It's famous social. Lord Rothschild, Milner. They're all doing it off, folks. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. But my favorite is when he says, but, but.
- [52:27]
Gerald
It's more complicated than just but.
- [52:29]
Jay Dyer
But.
- [52:30]
Gerald
And so, you know, for a little bit more kind of context, like the. The Jews essentially kind of organized themselves into industries and into places of power so that they could then exercise that power to get what they wanted in certain situations. And so one of the things they did with the British was like, well, it'd be. It'd be a shame if all these Jews around the world rose up and actually didn't support Your cause here in World War II and in really at any point in time and kind of pressured them into this situation to a degree. Right. Am I, am I.
- [52:57]
Jay Dyer
No. I mean it gets super complex. I mean that probably take its own seriously.
- [53:02]
Gerald
It does, yeah. Yeah. So, but I'm not trying to general.
- [53:04]
Jay Dyer
It, but like you've got.
- [53:04]
Gerald
There is influence being. And I'm not saying, I'm not saying it's good or bad. I'm just saying like that was there. It did exist.
- [53:10]
Jay Dyer
Yes.
- [53:10]
Gerald
And they did want what they wanted and they, they used different methods to get it. I get it. There were criminal gangs running around. There was atrocities on both sides. I understand it. They, you know, the King David, all of that. Like, I understand that at a certain point they were like, the British, we don't want you here anymore.
- [53:25]
Jay Dyer
Get out.
- [53:25]
Gerald
We're done. Get out. And that's one of the reasons they bombed the King David Hotel. It's like we're gonna make it, make it too painful for you to be here. So you'll just eventually leave.
- [53:32]
Jay Dyer
Right.
- [53:33]
Gerald
Kind of like the French left. Right. So I think that that makes a lot of sense.
- [53:38]
Jay Dyer
So I interrupted you where in relation then to the Protestant evangelical world in America? There's some really great articles. That guy who converted Orthodox, who's Jewish, by the way, James Perloff, he's written some articles that are really good about the influence of the Scofield Study Bible in America and that it was intentionally promoted by Oxford University, published by Oxford. That's the society of these sort of Fabian socialist minded elites there. And that's because they wanted Americans convinced that this was sort of a fulfillment of prophecy. Right. The recognition of the nation state of Israel. Eventually. I know it doesn't happen at Balfour, it eventually happens at 1948. But this was something that was clearly, if you read the Rothschild biographies or if you read Moses Hess, this was always sort of what they wanted to do. That faction, you could say, not everybody, obviously there's the Torah Jews that, you know, the, the anti Zionist Jews don't believe in that. But speaking in general, that was part of the, the Raw strategy. And then people in America were part of certain clubs. The Seminole, Samuel Untermeyer and people like that. They had this club where they wanted to promote in America the idea of a pre, millennial, pre tribulation, dispensational, Darby Scofield thing. And they were pretty successful at that. And I think America really adopted that dispensationalist dual covenant, you know, chopped up schizophrenic plan for history. That is one of the key things that has to, I think, be refuted. So I think, as you're saying with this clip, like, what he said is kind of ridiculous. I mean, America has been. American evangelicalism has been wedded to whatever kind of, you know, sort of the coup, I guess you could say, because it's not all of Israel, even sort of the. The right side of Israel, what they wanted. And that's just the facts.
- [55:24]
Gerald
Yeah. And look, I appreciate kind of how you talk about that because you've done some deeper dives and you're, you know, you're pretty critical on some of this stuff. I understand it. Like, you know, it kind of hits close to home. But I think it's important to have honest conversations about this stuff. And the first. And I didn't plan on talking about this here, but when we talk about the Israel of the Bible and we talk about who really are the chosen people, does scripture, as a Protestant, I'm like, well, what does scripture say about it? Not what did the early church believe? Because I think that's important, but really, what does scripture. And when you go to Galatians 3, you start to get a lot more like, oh, okay, that makes a lot more sense to me about what the Bible is actually talking about. And it's those who believe in Christ. It's those who are part of Christ's body and Christ church. The interesting thing to me is that there is this. I think it's kind of a slur to you guys, like the replacement theology kind of group where it's like, you think that. Not you. But this group thinks that Christianity and everything that we believe now, it has replaced the Jews in God's economy. And I wanted you maybe to address that and say, like, hey, here's where that's right and here's where that's wrong. Because I think it's done. And then a lot of stuff is pushed under that umbrella, like, you just hate Jews, want to kill them, you know, And I know you don't believe that at all, but I understand that a lot of people are like, hey, you know, the Christ killers. And I'm like, yeah, technically you're right. They're the people who are responsible for the death of Christ, though. So am I. I understand that. But that's not an argument against the fact that they took him to Pontius Pilate and pilots like, oy vey, what do you want me to do? Right? For everyone who solves crime from their couch knows more about forensics than their.
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- [58:56]
Jay Dyer
Of these, you know, for the orthodox position, which we think is obviously grounded in Scripture too. So I'm not just citing the Church Fathers, but the, you know, they're an attestation to the attitude of the Church in the first, second, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh centuries. And they're pretty unanimous. And I read them extensively, especially on this topic as well, with the terms of, you know, eschatology, like most of the Eastern fathers, are partial preterists when it comes to this topic of Matthew 24, Luke 21, and to a degree, Daniel 9 in the book of Revelation, although that's not as explicit. But that's because we see at the first Advent Christ bringing a lot of the realities of the kingdom that most maybe evangelical premillennial types postponed to the end of the world. We think a lot of that was set up at the first Advent. So, for example, in Matthew 21:43, in that parable, Jesus says to The Jews, the kingdom of God, will be taken from you and given to a nation, producing the fruits thereof. That nation is the church that the new nation, which is, as Peter says in First Peter 2, you're a chosen nation, royal priesthood, you know, Galatians 3, obviously, as you mentioned, but also Galatians 4, where Paul makes that allegory between the Jerusalem which is below and the heavenly Jerusalem which is above, which is mother church in our view. Hebrews 13, Paul says that we have an altar. And that whole context where he says on Hebrews 13 is in the context of a eucharistia or a feasting discourse. He says we have an altar that those that serve the tabernacle have no right to eat. So we're eating the eucharistic sacrifice at an altar. In our perspective, that would mean that the church has to be, via Hebrews, the fulfillment of the type of what Israel was. Now, in relation to the Jews in general, most of the church fathers do not believe that there are no more Jews or the Jews are gone, or that Judaism is a fake thing that doesn't exist. They believe with Romans 11 that there is a future conversion of the Jews. We don't know when that will be, if it will be a thousand years from now, 10,000 years. We don't know that. But that is the patristic interpretation. And even some of the harshest.
- [60:54]
Gerald
Romans 11 is like kryptonite to a lot of people on the other side who don't want to look at Jews having any place whatsoever. I'm like, yes, but all these things are true. But you got to hit Romans 11 perspective.
- [61:04]
Jay Dyer
Even the most critical of Rabbinic Judaism, of the church fathers still admit that St. Cyril of Alexandria or even St. John Chrysostom, like, they still admit that there's a future conversion of the Jews. And we don't know how or when that will come about. But.
- [61:18]
Gerald
Right.
- [61:18]
Jay Dyer
That's Roman. Romans 11 is pretty clear about.
- [61:20]
Gerald
Very clear. It's really hard to get around that stuff. But I don't think a lot of Christians look at it through an eschatological lens.
- [61:25]
Jay Dyer
Right.
- [61:26]
Gerald
I'm. I love that study. That's one of my favorite things to talk about, to study, to kind of dive into. I don't.
- [61:32]
Jay Dyer
Go ahead real quick on that. So my godfather, who's a really awesome Orthodox guy, Dean Arnold, he has reprinted a commentary on the Book of Revelation from a friend of his who was kind of an Anglican guy, kind of almost into Orthodoxy, named James Jordan. That's close. Yeah. Dean Arnold has a 3, 4 volume commentary on the book of Revelation. That's really good. That touches on a lot of this.
- [61:57]
Gerald
Yeah, it's a fascinating study because it touches so many points throughout scripture. And I think Christians, especially on the Protestant side, do a decentralized job of staying in the New Testament if they're in their Bible. But they really don't understand the Old Testament and how like a lot of this pattern is prophecy thing happens where it's like, there's a pattern that's laid down, here's how it's fulfilled. You're expecting somebody to come in and tell you tomorrow this thing is going to happen and that's a fulfillment of prophecy. It's a little different. But I don't view looking at the nation, the people of Israel, not the current nation state, because let's just use an example right now. Right? So you have to support Israel, those who bless. Okay, got it. I understand you're telling me that if the current nation state of Israel nukes Paris, that I have to support and bless that to be blessed, and if I curse that, I will be cursed. Does that seem to make any sense to anybody else? No. Okay, so maybe the line is somewhere other than where we've drawn it in the evangelical church. Right. Maybe they're talking about something a little deeper, a little different than what we think. But I understand the Scofield Study Bible. I think it's important to include the study Bible because it's misleading to say it's a different Bible. It's not. It just had notes that led you in a certain direction on the interpretation of those scriptures. Right. You're not misleading. I think I've heard other people say it's the Scofield Bible. And I was like, it's a study Bible because it matters, because they didn't change the Bible itself. They were just like, hey, this is one of those things where it's like, you know, everybody has like. So you've got the Talmud, basically in Judaism, you've got the Hadith Islam, and you've got kind of any of the church people that we've listened to. This is the notes of how do I interpret what I just read? Right. And give you kind of some rules and regulations there. We view it as a problem to think that as the adopted sons, that we are going to supplant the natural son. And I think it comes more from that than it comes from eschatology. Because I don't think a lot of Christians lean into eschatology very much. Much. Unless you're saying that maybe these guys like Hagee are leaning into that and saying God's future plan for Israel means you have to bless them now. Is that what it is? Because we don't think about eschatology as much.
- [64:00]
Jay Dyer
Right. So like the kingdom, you know, we would say the kingdom isn't this future millennial reality. It's the thing that was set up in the first advent. Jesus says, you know, I will give you the keys of the kingdom. And that's.
- [64:12]
Gerald
We need to talk about that in a different episode. That's one of the more like parts of that I'm more curious about too, because I think there's a lot there to unpack. And so you think it's because of the. When he says kingdom, millennial kingdom. You don't believe in a millennial kingdom, like a literal thousand year reign?
- [64:27]
Jay Dyer
No, we believe the church is the kingdom.
- [64:29]
Gerald
Right.
- [64:29]
Jay Dyer
Okay. The church is the kingdom of God. It's the people of God, it's the Israel of God. Galatians 6, 16, it's the sheepfold, it's the body. All of those references are the church. And if you go to so many Old Testament prophecies, especially, you know, Psalm 45 with, you know, the king and the queen, that's a Messianic prophecy. We think that's Jesus and Mary and it's also the church. You know, all of these things that are Old Testament applications. You mentioned the blessings and the cursings. If you look at Revelation 2 and 3, Jesus applies the notion of covenantal blessing and cursing out of Deuteronomy to the church.
- [65:03]
Gerald
Yeah.
- [65:04]
Jay Dyer
So the church is now the one that is in covenant with Christ and the Jews can come back in, but that's in Christ. And so they would have to convert to Christ. It's not like there's a dual covenant that a lot of the dispensationals promoted. And also with like Galatians or excuse me, with a, you know, Genesis 12, 15, 1722, those passages of the Abrahamic covenant according to Galatians 3 and Romans 4 are in Christ.
- [65:27]
Gerald
Right.
- [65:27]
Jay Dyer
So that sonship fulfilled in Christ. Yes. So it would be retrograde, which is kind of the point of Hebrews to kind of go back to the idea of we need to build another temple, we need to have animal sacrifices. All of those things were the types and the realities come the first advent, not the second advent.
- [65:43]
Gerald
Right. Now that makes sense. Do you think? And I think maybe it's a good time to play this clip because John Hagee was actually talking at this same conference that we referenced Ted Cruz talking at and or speaking at. And I just. As we play this clip, I want to ask you in the audience, what place do you think Israel should hold in the mind and hearts of the followers of Christ? Like, where do they sit? And it doesn't matter if you think a current war or current conflict or, you know, a future conflict is going to be a problem and you can't support the actions. That's not what I'm talking about the nation state. I'm talking about the people. Where do the people kind of fit in your mind or heart as a follower of Christ? But listen to this clip really quickly by John Hagee.
- [66:25]
John Hagee
The Bible proves that the Jewish people are the most unique people on the face of the earth. They are a chosen people. They are a covenant people. They are a cherished people. They are the apple of God's eye. The unchallengeable fact of the Bible is that Israel and the Jewish people are unique. Listen, Israel did not choose this uniqueness. God chose it for them. Listen to David's prayer in 1st Chronicles 17:20. It's one of the most powerful words in the scripture. O Lord, there is none like you, nor is there any God beside you and who is like your people. Israel. Listen. The one nation on the earth whom God went to redeem for himself as a people chosen and still cherished. Deuteronomy 7:6. For you, Israel, are a chosen one people, a holy people to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for himself. Listen to this next sentence. A special treasure above all the people on the face of the earth. That includes the United States of America.
- [67:40]
Gerald
Interesting stuff. What do you make of that?
- [67:44]
Jay Dyer
Well, a little bit of it is true still. I mean, you could see that's exactly.
- [67:49]
Gerald
What I was thinking. He's saying a lot of true things, but. But he seems to be pointing at something that is not necessarily in line with what he said.
- [67:55]
Jay Dyer
Sort of half the story.
- [67:56]
Gerald
Yeah.
- [67:57]
Jay Dyer
Yeah. So, I mean, if I think back to Jeremiah 31 and Jeremiah 33 in the Protestant Masoretic Bible, you'll notice that the way that the New Covenant is described is that it will supersede the Mosaic covenant.
- [68:10]
Gerald
Yeah.
- [68:10]
Jay Dyer
It will be better. It will be more powerful. Pentecost. Right. All of these things that are so important to the New Covenant make the Old Covenant totally useless or worthless. Because the Old Covenant is Christ. It's teaching and preaching Christ. So it's relevant. It's absolutely essential to understand the New Testament but it's new wine and old wineskins, the way the parable talks. No, the promises are only in Christ and in my view, in baptism. So that's where we enter into that covenant relationship. And there's no bypassing or going some other route or whatever without Christ. And the only way that Jews can be saved is in Christ. But we don't say that. Well, there's no such thing as Jews. I mean, I believe the continued existence of Jews isn't an attestation to the Bible. You know what I mean? To the reality of the Old Testament, The Bible. And even the church fathers, again, that were critical of rabbinic Judaism say the same thing. Right. Like this is a witness to this. So in that sense, I could agree with it being still a witness. But it's really, you know, he had a controversy some years back because he put out a book, Jesus is not the Messiah. And he had to take.
- [69:22]
Gerald
Oh, really?
- [69:22]
Jay Dyer
Yeah, he had to take all that down because it was a huge controversy. You can still find the ads online. But yeah, he was. But it was. It was a dispensational narrative with it with a hot title book.
- [69:32]
Gerald
Okay.
- [69:33]
Jay Dyer
He wasn't literally saying Jesus was the Messiah. He was saying in the dispensationalist narrative, Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah yet because they rejected him. So it went to the gentiles, the dual covenant.
- [69:45]
Gerald
Yeah. Anyway, until the fullness of the gentiles comes in. I mean, you know, so it seems to be speaking of a future place for Israel.
- [69:53]
Jay Dyer
Yeah.
- [69:54]
Gerald
And the Jewish people. When I say Israel, I mean the Jewish people.
- [69:56]
Jay Dyer
Right.
- [69:56]
Gerald
Not a nation state.
- [69:57]
Jay Dyer
Right.
- [69:58]
Gerald
Yeah. I mean, it just. It just seems to make perfect sense. Like, if anything that I have seen, it's like a story, you know, Genesis is, you know, creation and then a story of a people that become a nation. And then the rest of scripture is God redeeming that people group, essentially. And that includes kind of expanding the benefit to the Gentiles as well.
- [70:15]
Jay Dyer
That's what I was going to say. If you follow the covenant theology of the Bible, you get a family, Adam and Eve, and that moves to a bigger family with Noah and his sons. And then you get the tribe with Abraham, and you get the nation with Moses and David, those covenants. And then that covenant then expands outside of a nation to all the world in what is the church, which is the kingdom. So they're kind of really missing the eschatological reality and putting it into some distant future.
- [70:43]
Gerald
Yeah. Well, I really want this to be corrected in Protestantism because I don't want people to run to the talking points here. And I feel like Ted Cruz is doing that in a very big way. And maybe he has a more nuanced opinion about this, that he's out there campaigning as a politician. I don't know. It irks me a little bit because I have to spend time swatting that down, going, no, no, no. It's not quite like Ted Cruz is saying, but no, you can't just run all the way over here and say that the Jews have no place at all in God's heart. Like, there was. There are, you know, the covenant that the Abrahamic covenant was between God and God. Like, he put Abraham in a sleep. He didn't walk through the cut pieces of animal that was laying on the ground. It was God making a covenant with himself, which he cannot break. There is no fulfillment to that. There is Levitical things like, hey, if you do these things, these good things will happen. But if, in Deuteronomy, if you don't do these things, then there's a lot of bad stuff that's going to happen that you guys will experience kind of as a nation. So I understand that. But I think a lot of Christians feel like it's, I got to wear the team jersey completely or I am betraying my faith to some degree. If I don't support Israel, I'm somehow not Christian anymore. I don't know how we got there, other than I know the dispensational thing. I just mean with the critical thinking of, like. But nobody goes, yeah, Galatians 3 and 4. Can we. Can we incorporate that with Romans 11 when we're talking about that? And even though I maybe am like a, you know, a pre Trib person that believes in a millennial reign, it doesn't mean that I think that the Jews have some special, like, ramp to heaven that nobody else has. It just means that God's not done with them yet, essentially. So I don't understand why people didn't raise their hand and go, why are we doing this? Why is it like this is there. Did anybody try to rightly explain that in a way that made people go, oh, yeah, yeah, of course. I mean, it wouldn't be rightly, I guess, but to them, like, did they try to allegorize Galatians 3 and 4 and maybe steer people away from it?
- [72:41]
Jay Dyer
You mean in the history of Protestantism?
- [72:42]
Gerald
Yeah, like, why did that question not come up? Certainly we're not the only critical thinkers to come and go, but. Yes, but who Are the people of God. Who is the true son of Abraham or who are the true sons of Abraham?
- [72:56]
Jay Dyer
One guess would be that you had the liberalizing of all the Protestant mainline churches when a lot of really wealthy people. I've done some deep research into this. Like, for example, the Rockefellers put a lot of money into buying and funding seminaries, and they would actually decide who would be kind of the, you know, chair of this and that, the deep dean so forth. And they specifically, through people like Fosdick and others, wanted to liberalize Protestantism to be a tool of social gospel. So that I've seen that work that.
- [73:29]
Gerald
Worked for them, not for the people that are in it.
- [73:34]
Jay Dyer
Well, it worked to liberalize the mainline Protestant denominations very well, particularly Presbyterians and mainline Methodists and Lutherans. And then I think what happened was that those. Those groups kind of quit caring about this kind of biblical theology, right? Because they become basically social justice warrior organizations. All the churches are. With the feminism and the skittles gay stuff. I'm so used to the codes that we had. Do you remember during, like, I mean, you guys know about the censorship, right? Very well.
- [74:05]
Gerald
We would just step on rakes every other day, just figure it out. I guess we get some strikes or whatever. Guess I can't quote the cdc.
- [74:13]
Jay Dyer
I was always coming up with these creative codes, right? So we'd have like, yeah, co is koof instead of. Well, it's from a meme. But gay is. The gay stuff is skittles. Right. So anyway, speaking in codes in this dystopia.
- [74:28]
Gerald
But the first time I heard grape, I was like, what the hell?
- [74:30]
Jay Dyer
Oh, yeah, exactly.
- [74:32]
Gerald
Got it.
- [74:32]
Jay Dyer
Good example. So I think the. They kind of quit caring about biblical theology. So the only people left to care about biblical theology were people who were going into evangelical Baptist seminaries, Dallas Theological Seminary and places like that, which were longtime havens of dispensational type ideology. And the conservative Presbyterians or Lutherans were just such a minority throughout the decades of the last century that it just, I guess, became dominant that all those universities and seminaries that were evangelical were just bought off or, you know, propagandized.
- [75:07]
Gerald
That's interesting. I'd really like to know. So if you guys have anybody out there who's been through, you know, kind of growing up evangelical, being a part of the church, how they would explain those verses? And I haven't. I haven't really found anybody that gives me a good explanation. People tend to pivot to other things where they're strong, and that makes sense. In a debate, typically, people will, unfortunately, a lot of times run to their strongest points and avoid some of their weaker ones. That's why I look for people who just acknowledge, hey, I'm kind of weak here.
- [75:34]
Jay Dyer
I did have some back and forth with Dinesh d', Souza, who I think is a dispensationalist. So I'm always willing to debate Dinesh or whoever if they.
- [75:41]
Gerald
Are you ready to debate Dinesh? I would. Yeah, sure. Does he want to debate?
- [75:44]
Jay Dyer
I don't know. I'm just saying I would.
- [75:46]
Gerald
Come on, Dinesh, go out there and debate. I don't know. I. I want, like, the very best representatives. Nothing against Dinesh. I haven't seen him speak on this subject as much. I think he talked about it a little bit with Nick Fuentes maybe, or some other. There may have been another conversation.
- [76:01]
Jay Dyer
Well, he was just going crazy on Twitter about it for, like, the last several days. I thought maybe he, like, really wanted to have, you know, somebody conversation. Yeah, yeah.
- [76:07]
Gerald
I think it needs to happen because, look, as Christians, again, know why you believe what you believe, it's very, very important. I don't think God has called us to just have a completely uninformed faith. There is some element of faith not really being. I don't know how to articulate it the right way, but I don't think God minds you proving him out. Let me put it that way. Right. I don't think God minds that at all. There's scripture that shows that that's fine. I don't think you have to leave your brain at the door to be a Christian. I don't think that's never been a part of the equation. So we can ask these questions, we can have these conversations, and we do need to correct some of these issues so that people are not led astray. And I think having conversations like this, Jay, we're going to have to do this again. I think we're a little over time right now, but I didn't even get to, like, feminism in the Protestant church and some of the things, like just a quick story on that. The reason that I know this exists is not because I've been, like, up to date on feminism and all the effects on society. It's that when I talked to the church that I worked with that was big, kind of a charismatic church, they said that the consultants came in and told them they needed to redesign their bathrooms because people make a decision on where to go to church based on how nice the restrooms are. And so they remodeled the restrooms kid you not. The men's looked very much the same as it did before, just with new tile. The women's became a lavish lounge. You're marketing to the ladies, and that's not really what the church is supposed to be about. And so we'll have to have a conversation on that in eschatology. And maybe you and Andrew can give me some debate skills and I'll be prepped and ready to go at some point for this. But Jay, again, tell people where they can find you and where they can find your book.
- [77:54]
Jay Dyer
Yeah, books are available at the shop@Jay's analysis.com and they're all signed. That's the whole purpose of getting it there and not through Bezos. And then you can find me on X Under Jay Dyer jd007 YouTube jdyer rockfin also have a great allyinchalk.com, my sponsors, so they're a good supplement company.
- [78:17]
Gerald
Fantastic. Well, thank you very much and thank you for joining us for Gerald Apologizes Apologetics. Gerald Apologizes Apologetics it doesn't mean that.
- [78:38]
Hillsdale College Narrator
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- [79:03]
Jay Dyer
Sa.
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